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#53309 - 09/07/04 11:46 AM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Help establish a nation for the Palestinians, and Pack up and get the hell out of the Middle East?

If you remember correctly Israel and Palestine were in Peace talks at the end of Clinton's administration. Then 9/11 happened and Bush's response was to bomb the [censored] out of Afghanistan. That opened the door to bombing nations in response to a terrorist attack. What did Israel do the very same week? Sent gunships into Palestine. Violence breeds violence. In the long haul, controlling people through fear and violence is never going to solve anything.


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#53310 - 09/07/04 01:22 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
First, The suggestion that there was something going on at the end of the Clinton administration, or any before that, is rather muted, because peace TALKS have been on going in the middle east for decades. The ceasefire that started in March , 2000 ended on September 28, 2000, when the Palestinians attacked, Israel responded, and they were back at it. This next series of violence was continuous from September, 2000 through 9/11, and continues today ... 9/11 DID send a lot of fear through Israel... and celebrations through the Arab world...

And the other half of establishing a Palestinian State HAS to include the stopping of the Arab War against Israel. It IS still the Arab goal to eradicate Israel. In 2002, Saudi Arabia DID propose that the Arab war against Israel stop in exchange for Israel allowing the permanent Palestinian State.

As for packing up and leaving the middle east... We HAVE been working through the UN on this matter... and leaving would mean a total pull out of the UN.

This would also lead to the continuation of the Arab War to eradicate Israel... Which means Israel would have two choices... one is being eliminated... the other is their possible only eventual defense.... Nuclear.
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#53311 - 09/07/04 01:26 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Please explain this...

You all clearly think the Chechnyan rebels are terrorists, but your President must think otherwise.

I'm genuinely curious to hear that you think.


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#53312 - 09/07/04 01:37 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
First... From 1992 until 2000, Bill Clinton was our President, and I referred to him that way. I see you disavow that President Bush is your president. This comes as no surprise.

The article you point out is regarding one man who has been here for two years. He had NOTHING to do with this recent event in Russia.

This terrorist act was the killing of hundreds of students, many shot in the back. The man who was given asylum had precisely nothing to do with this attack.

I do think there was a major change in the methods in Chechnya... Or perhaps the "rebels" there have always made killing school children a part of their methodology, and we were not made aware of it.

I used to have empathy for Chechnya, now that they are using terrorist techniques, I don't.
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#53313 - 09/07/04 01:56 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Dang you get your panties in a bunch over my not calling George by his proper title don't you? If you'll note, I didn't say "President" Clinton either.

Rather then cause you any more grief, I'll start adding titles to people's names.

Regarding Ilias Akhmadov, the Russians seem to disagree with you...and that was PRIOR to the whole school hostage situation.

What about the bigger idea I posed. Do you really believe that violence, in the end, can ever bring peace? Do you really believe that? Or is your plan to control the world with an iron fist forever? Do you not think that all this flexing of power is not going to breed even more resentment for the US? Nearly the entire globe is looking at the US and shaking their heads. How does that make thew world safer?




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#53314 - 09/07/04 02:01 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

If a murderer wants you dead, are you going to try to reason with him ? Or defend yourself.


This presupposes that the murderer is staring me in the face, with weapon drawn.

True, it might be a little late for this, but if you had the chance to prevent someone from becoming a murderer in the first place, wouldn't you take it? Aren't preventive measures better and less costly (both in terms of dollars and lives) than reactionary measures?
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#53315 - 09/07/04 02:01 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
donaldekelly Offline
local

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 274
Loc: Washington, DC
Does President Bush make asylum decisions? And didn't the Homeland Security people challenge that decision?

I do think there is something to Spiff's statement, though. that The USA going into Afghanistan and certianly Iraq encouraged other nations to bomb and think about "doing unto others before they do unto you."

More statements and not questions - will I ever learn?
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#53316 - 09/07/04 02:04 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
To start with, Most of the world is not looking at us and shaking their heads. In fact, after this weekend, a lot more are seeing how hard this fight will be, and are, if they are being honest, starting to understand these terrorists have a common goal.

Russia thought it was safe from terrorism because it opposed us... they were wrong.

And I have no interest in controlling the world with an Iron fist. I DO, however, understand that sometimes violence is needed to defeat evil. What happened in Russia was an act of evil.

Looking at your position, that violence only leads to more violence... On 9/11/01, we were bombed in a sneak attack. On 12/07/41, We were bombed in an earlier sneak attack. I gather that you would have negotiated with the Japanese then, too ? Afterall, violence only brings more vioence.

And for clarity... you said "your president", not "our president" ... and I don't wear panties.
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#53317 - 09/07/04 02:08 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Donald, in 2001, Osama Bin Laden planned the World Trade Center bombing. He was in Afghanistan, as part of the Taliban, and supported by the Taliban. They bombed US ... We responded.

I know you have a big heart, but Bin Laden and his followers will not negotiate peace...
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#53318 - 09/07/04 02:22 PM Re: Just because I'm a warmonger
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
PM - Preventing a murderer from becoming one is not a proveable science. Sure, I wish we could do just that, prevent a murderer from becoming one.

Look at Iraq, the vast majority of the country wants the new government to succeed... and the terrorists are a small minority of ANY country. Why does 99 % of any county manage not to become homicidal ? They have a fringe that loves to kill. One major difference between them and us, their governments don't put a stop to it. Picture Timothy McVeigh and his ilk with our government not paying attention... they would be terrorists... (oops... they succeeded, and were terrorists... some people just plain HATE).

By the way, if anyone looked at the link to the new Iraqi constitution, you would see it calls for Islam to be the state religion... not exactly the language a US puppet would use.

It is a pretty good read... and a great start for the Iraqi people to live in freedom.
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