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#54259 - 04/18/05 02:30 PM Re: OT: politics
bigwill2 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 586
For all you big gov't lovers who poo-poo the notion that higher taxes slow the economy, have you noticed (again) the shot in the arm the economy receives after everyone gets their tax refunds?
My neighborhood is only 3 years old so we're all saddled with new loans and lots of interest payments, lots of kids, etc... It's been hilarious to see all the crap rolling in: speakers, bbqs, tvs, new cars, furniture, etc...
If only this stuff was "Made in the USA"!

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#54260 - 04/18/05 02:52 PM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

It's been hilarious to see all the crap rolling in



funny you should say that..

i got a new stove.
my sister got a new HT system.
my father-in-law got a new riding lawn mower.
one of my friends got a new fridge, one got a new wakeboard and wake-rack for his boat.. and the other got a new depth finder and trolling motor.

and i dont necesarily think that higher taxes slow the economy, they just delay it. instead of buying stuff thru the year, people just wait til they get their return.. i cant tell you how many times i have heard somebodysay, "i cant wait to get my return so i can go get.....(fill in the blank)". it all ends up levelling out if you average it by the year. right?

bigjohn

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#54261 - 04/18/05 03:26 PM Re: OT: politics
bigwill2 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 586
I believe the point is: money in the hands of consumers equals increased economic activity.
View the country as a vehicle. The economy is the engine. Eveything else runs off of it. AFDC and other welfare programs would be like the air conditioning, taxes like power steering, Social Security like a big boat being towed, etc... All those things depend on a strong and healthy economy. Overburden your engine with too many ancillary devices and what results? Shrink your engine and what results? Strangle your engine with excessive regulatios and what results?
Of course, my analogy assumes we want to GET SOMEWHERE. I think a lot of folks would be happier sitting in the redwoods making leather sandals than seeing the human population thrive.


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#54262 - 04/18/05 04:22 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
bigwill, Harvard business school could use that analogy. Two thmbs up !
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#54263 - 04/18/05 05:43 PM Re: OT: politics
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
I think people spending these refunds may be good for the economy, but is bad for the individual people. There are too many people in this country that have way too much debt, yet they continue to spend their money anyway instead of trying to pay off what they owe and budget properly.

I guess a lot of people use our govt. as their example for that though, which does the same thing with the deficit that we continue to have.

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#54264 - 04/18/05 05:47 PM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
In reply to:

I think people spending these refunds may be good for the economy, but is bad for the individual people. There are too many people in this country that have way too much debt, yet they continue to spend their money anyway instead of trying to pay off what they owe and budget properly.

I guess a lot of people use our govt. as their example for that though, which does the same thing with the deficit that we continue to have.




Guilty as charged, but an excellent point. Paying off the national debt and making that a publicly known priority sets an excellent example for the people.

Why should we pay off our debt? The government doesn't? (not saying that proper thinking...just making a point)




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#54265 - 04/18/05 06:40 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Gents ... If we had never occured the current debt levels we have in this country, we would currently have an economy which is a fraction what it is today. The only thing preventing me from attempting to teach a small course in what good debt does is there would be people posting more links to some far left or far right no-nothing with all SORTS of data how debt is killing the country. Well, since I said that, perhaps it won't happen ... so here is a try ...

So ... I Will keep this REALLY simple ... in the past 25 years, overall debt in the US has increased by about 8 trillion dollars ... at the same time, our Assets have increased by about $20 trillion. Take out the $8 trillion in debt, and the $20 trillion goes with it. And we have the same 100 million employed people from 25 years ago and an unemployment rate of about 25%.

Using a micro view ... If a couple have a house which is worth $200,000 and have a mortgage of $50,000 ... ten years later they have moved ... and owe $300,000 on a house. This means their debtload has increased by a 500% ... Let's say the house is worth $800,000. Their gross value has gone up 300 % ...

This would be reported in (think about the above mentioned "nut-ball" web sites) as an untenable debt ....

I can see the headline "DEBTLOADS INCREASE BY 500% WHILE aSSETS INCREASE BY ONLY 300% - BANKRUPTCY IS IMMINENT !!"

Yet this couple's NET worth increased from $150,000 to $500,000.

Now ... Since we are having this discussion ... can we PLEASE stay on this, without any references to Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, or anyone else ? PLEASE ?
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#54266 - 04/18/05 06:54 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
can I sell some of my personal debt to the Chinese, too???

The average American owes about $8500 in credit card debt. If you distribute the national debt between the entire population of the USA, then each person is responsible for $26544. That's just over 3 times the personal credit card debt.

I'm not sure if this correlation means anything other than making debtors feel better.
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#54267 - 04/18/05 06:57 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
craigsub, great analogies, and a fine request for making direct discussion of current or past presidents OFF LIMITS. I second the motion.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#54268 - 04/18/05 07:08 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
PM ... Thanks, and note I am smiling during the analogies ... ALSO ... The average person's NET assets today are about $150,000 ... twenty five years ago, the average net was about $50,000 ... While the debt load has increased from a total of $12,000 to about $48,000 total- a $36,000 increase ... the net increase in assets was about $100,000 ... or another $64,000 per person.

SO .... buy another pair of Axioms and feel good ...
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