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#53449 - 09/13/04 03:38 PM Re: Holy crap
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
PMB ... The floor is yours. Tell us PRECISELY what needs to be done in Iraq.
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#53450 - 09/13/04 03:58 PM Re: Holy crap
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I don't pretend to know the first thing about liberating a country. I do know that killing the people you are attempting to free is counterproductive, however. (One might say that under Saddam, as least people knew what sort of actions would get them killed.)

Look, I want the US to succeed in this as much as you do. This is WHY it angers me when they make a mistake as large and visible as this.
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#53451 - 09/13/04 04:03 PM On a lighter note
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Today in California, Governor Schwarzenegger signed into law a prohibition against copulating with corpses. Yep, until today, it was legal to screw a stiff. Necrophilia is now a no-no.

I wonder if this law covers the special case of "Well, s/he was alive when we started..." ??
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#53452 - 09/13/04 04:09 PM Re: Holy crap
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
PM - So you are automatically buying that out troops are in the wrong here. I know a LOT of military people... and they are trained to revere civilians ... non-combatants are to be treated gently. I would put more stock into the notion that the terrorists killed their OWN people so they could blame us, rather than our guys shooting at un-armed people.

You are dealing with a mind-set that will strap a bomb on a 7 year old child, and send that child into a cafe... just to kill innocent civilians.

As a note... Several civilians WERE injured, and a Doctor on duty in Iraq stated that "The American Army Has No Morals" ... where do you suppose he got his info as to what happened ? With ZERO evidence, he said that our troops bombed unarmed civilians. An ambulance was hit by a shell... if you remember, during Gulf War I, similar claims were made, and it was later proven that the bombs were Iraqi...

We don't train our soldiers to do that.. these are absolute lies...

I am not knocking you, PM ... I see what is said about our troops... but it really is not the truth.
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#53453 - 09/13/04 04:23 PM Re: Holy crap
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

but it really is not the truth.


Modify that to "but it really is not always the truth" and I'll agree.

Mistakes do happen. And mistakes often have negative repercussions.
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#53454 - 09/13/04 04:28 PM Re: Holy crap
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Mistakes do happen... but why is it that WE are the only country that gets criticized for mistakes? The suprise answer is fairly simple... we DO have a conscience in America. So... when we DO make a mistake, we try to make up for it.

NOW ... let us look at the terrorists... beheadings, car bombings... etc...

What I am suggesting is that people try to look through the pure lies that are perpetuated by the so-called "media" of the middle east....
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#53455 - 09/13/04 04:33 PM Re: Holy crap
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
pmb, I guess we could get into a huge discussion on the validity of the war (which I don't desire to). I don't doubt that it sucks that those people died and I don't doubt many civilians affected there question our presence. But, given the fact that they were ruled by a maniacal dictator, I don't think the average civilian response is unadulterated hate towards the US. It depends on who you talk to. Many shiites would never appear to be thankful to us for putting them in majority power even though they are.

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#53456 - 09/13/04 06:03 PM Re: Holy crap
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Craigsub...is this not what you wrote?

In reply to:

For example, as a business owner, I provide, to the spouse/children of employees, health insurance. Under the concept of Gay Marriage, I would be forced, by law, to pay for "His Husband's" health insurance. Note the word FORCED, that is an infringement on my rights TO RUN MY BUSINESS. And anyone will be able, under gay marriage, to head to the local magistrate, get married, and show up at my door with a demand that I add his "new husband" to "his" benefits package.

Should my state adopt "same sex" marriage, I would immediately eliminate all employee benefit programs. Not because I have a problem with the so called "gay lifestyle", but because I know what the outcome would be: I, and many other small business owners, would be placed in a position of paying for more scams than you can imagine.




If your argument is that straight guys and straight women across the country are going to go rush out and get "married" so they can have insurance, pardon me but that's the LAMEST excuse I've ever heard against same-sex marriage.

Why don't you end all your employee benefits now in protest of all the sham straight marriages there are going on?


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#53457 - 09/13/04 06:44 PM Re: Holy crap
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

What I am suggesting is that people try to look through the pure lies that are perpetuated by the so-called "media" of the middle east....


And what I am suggesting is that just because the United States of America has chosen a certain course of action does not necessarily make it right and just, or free from alternatives. You may get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside that President Bush is taking action against capital T Terror in this way, but it scares the hell out of me.

Why?

I believe all life is sacred. Any time even a single innocent life is taken, that is an atrocity. I don't care whether you're a highly trained Apache pilot or a bloodthirsty Islamic Jihadist Every innocent life taken is an indelible blemish on your soul. In my eyes, there is absolutely no diffence between an Iraqi man who gets killed on his way to work and a US man who got killed in the WTC collapse. Both were victims of an event over which they had no control. Both were victims of circumstances brought upon them without their consent. Both were human beings with families and histories and life left to live.

It's easy for us to analyze everything from the safety of our chairs, but you cannot sugar-coat the loss of innocent lives by calling it "allowable collateral damage done in the process of creating greater good." Greater good for whom?

I do not place myself higher up the totem pole of life-worthiness than people in other countries.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53458 - 09/13/04 06:58 PM Re: Holy crap
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Spiff... Nice try.. but that is PART of what I wrote... read EVERYTHING I wrote, then tell me how lame I am.

Right now, I am pretty annoyed with you. You are TOO intelligent to not know what you are doing here. Since you are quoting about 2 % of what I said on the matter, why don't you quote EVERYTHING ... or are you afraid ?
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