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#77203 - 01/19/05 12:23 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
sorry Ned, I only glanced at the earlier pages in the thread.

Mark, I'm looking. I read it in the archives a few days ago in some huge thread debating the eternally debatable: differences in receivers or something like that.

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#77204 - 01/19/05 12:32 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
ok, here's the thread (I enjoyed reading this one):

hear no evil

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#77205 - 01/19/05 12:34 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
sidvicious02 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 973
Loc: Brandon, Manitoba
i generally like to avoid these types of threads because I often find that they are not helpful to anyone, though this one has remained fairly civil (I also believe there are others whose knowledge or experience make them more qualified to answer these types of questions). So this post, if you can bear the length, is just my personal opinion on the topic. I do feel it is important that newbies have the opportunity to see all sides of a discussion and make their decision from the information provided. That's why this forum is so great because there is normally a pretty balanced discussion on different issues.

The biggest problem I see is the people who shoot-down posters stating Axiom speakers didn't sound as good as another speaker but did not properly arrange the test, ie - level balancing, similar components, smililar positioning, even as far as double-blind, and in my opinion, these complaints are valid.

However, it seems that many of these same people that extoll the virtues of proper scientific comparison when Axiom speakers are involved, don't seem to believe in these principles when testing other audio material. I've heard so many times that receivers sound different but few of these posters take the time to ensure it is a proper side by side comparison (as they state is necessary for speakers). I have yet to hear one poster say he performed a blind side-by-side comparison of receivers, cd players, power cords, etc and was able to tell the difference. That is why i'm skeptical of there actually being a difference.

In my own personal experience I have never heard a difference between any similar components I've owned or listened to. While I can honestly say I have not listened to anywhere near as many different brands or models of amps some others, my experiences with the dozen or so I have listened to has led me to believe there isn't a difference and it isn't worth spending much more time on. I also realise I am slightly hypocritical myself as I have never performed a double-blind listening test myself. Again though, when listening and comparing, IMO, I heard no difference.

So to summarize all this incoherent babbling, all I want to see is someone, anyone, perform a double-blind test to compare different audio components and be able to tell the difference. I'm willing to accept there could be sonic differences, I just want someone to prove to me they can tell the difference in controlled testing. Is that too much to ask?

(hope I did not offend anyone with this post as that was never my intention - also why I purposely left names or references to anyone specific out of the post. Like everyone else, I'm trying to answer these types of questions for myself)


_________________________
"Chickens don't clap."

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#77206 - 01/19/05 02:23 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Ned Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 117
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Riff,
That article was an easy read... not someone preaching to me like someone near the beginning of this thread. Nothing I dislike more than someone who comes across as the one who knows everything.
Earlier today I tried to push this thing off the front page but I see it returned
Out of the thousands of threads I have read here and at other forums, my learning did not come from a few people arguing/debating who is right about one certain topic. Nope, I would move on to the many other threads where I did not get a sense it was stringing out and maybe even going to crash and burn. Maybe thats just me ...I do not watch world wrestling federation either, even though I have worked in the home of Dick the Bruisers ring announcer???name??? Gee, maybe now we will debate who is the best wrestler of all time
_________________________
Axiom Denon Paradigm SVS

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#77207 - 01/19/05 02:46 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Riffman

Thank you for your link to Cblake's wonderful post. I liked it so much, I read much of the thread. Here' another I thought was interesting ... oooh, it's mine

Cblake

I think your meditation is profound. I particularly like your analogy of drawing a perfect circle with pebbles with the relationship between theory and reality.

I'm not a scientist but have faith in reason, if that doesn't strike those without a poetic organ as too funny.

I have no idea what an individual electron, if there is such a thing, or a gaggle of them, 'experience' as they pass through wires of different properties. If a 'scientist' can say, with confidence, that every factor bearing on such a flow can me objectified, identified, and measured, then what's left but measurement of all relevant factors? But, our day to day perception is on a different level of magnitude than the phenomenon under inspection - the flow of electrons through power Cord A and B, or the modulated output from an amplifier through speaker wires A and B.

Seems to me that a scientist can say, that as to those factors which we can identify and measure, we find there are or are not significant differences between the flow in wire A or B.

However, it may be, that if a scientist could 'ride' an electon, his/her point of view would be substantially different. In particular, the resolution of detail would open a potential universe of variables which are not perceivable from our point of view, or maybe just not obvious, or discovered yet.

What if a scientist could only measure the voltage of the signal entering the wire and the voltage of the signal leaving the wire? Armed with his single variable, but confident that it is sufficient to discern any difference in performance of various test wires, such a scientist would have all the data he would need for his tests and conclusions.

Such a flatlander could announce with certainty, that there is no difference between wire A and wire B in terms of the voltage entering and leaving the subject wires.

More than resistance and impedence, etc., what other variables do we really need to quantify in order to characterize the performance of wire? Ask a quantum audio scientist from the late 22nd century, there may be more variables under heaven than Horatio's fine science can discern ...

Which leaves the subjective observer. Who could put confidence in such a wet and messy piece of equipment? Why would anyone think that such a lump of protoplasm could possibly discern differences in the effect of various speaker wires on the flow of electrons, 'things' we understand so well, when our sophisticated multimeters indicate no discernable difference in what these devices can measure?

I don't use megabuck cables. I use Bob Crump design power cords and like the modestly priced but weirdly thin Mapleshade Double Golden Helix Plus speaker wires for my tube amp driven stereo system. Can I hear a difference between the lamp cord I used before? I think so. Can you?

I can hear a difference between different amps and processors. Can you?

I can hear differences between different speakers. Can you?

Edited by 2x6spds (08/09/03 12:46 AM)


_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#77208 - 01/19/05 03:08 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
Thanks 2X6spds. Nice comments from you as well. I really don't understand the position that receivers and cd players sound alike. I mean, I really don't! I also don't understand the relevance of double blind testing in the first place. We don't live in a double blind testing world *all* of the time.

If a person can hear a difference and it is only because of their perception, then why should that person not buy the equipment they perceive to be better? Perception is reality isn't it and over and over again I've seen people recommending other people to "save their money" or "don't, you won't be buying a different sound".

Its so easy to tell the differences in cd players or receivers that for the "science position" to hold weight for the person, it would seem a fair assumption that these folks cannot hear any differences. Were this not the case, why would they recommend keeping a piece of equipment they or someone else believes (perceives) sounds inferior? Or, why would they recommend not adding a better power cord even if they could hear (perceive) an improvement in sound?

I guess what I am saying is that if you want to enjoy your sound, the whole point is moot. To give you an example, I can hear differences between Onkyo receivers and NAD receivers. I prefer NAD. It would be awfully stupid of me to stick with the Onkyo even if I know the science is true.

Regarding cables and power chords I haven't listened to anything but the stock provided with the equipment, so I have no idea. ;-) I use cheap radio shack RCAs.



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#77209 - 01/19/05 03:20 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

I use cheap radio shack RCAs



i use the Fusion Gold Plated series from rat-shack.. and , i was gonna post a link, but after going to the rat-shack website, i cant find one.. but, they have tons of monster stuff.. so, i am guessing they have quit making the Fusion series, and just sell the monsters now? who knows.. but, mine work great, at about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the high-end cables.

bigjohn
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EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#77210 - 01/19/05 03:40 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
EllisU Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 27
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
As 2x6spds would say, time to get out the hip waders.

If we want to debate what would happen if we actually saddled up an electron and galloped through the wire, we might as well start debating reality itself.

Misapplied cognitive dissonance theory aside, I have major issues with 4 feet of power cord making a difference. Sure, if the 4 feet of power cable connects the space shuttle’s launching systems to an unlimited power source, it is very important to have a wire that does not inhibit the flow of current. That is simply not the case with HT. There are many other weaker links between the power substation and your amp. If your amp is not receiving adequate power, it is not the fault of the cable – it is the fault of the source.

This entire thread is overlooking one key point; if the engineers at (insert company) thought they were crippling their product with an inadequate power cable, they would certainly make a change. Major manufacturers could buy or manufacture “improved” power cables for a negligible amount. I don’t see Denon giving HK product superiority for a few extra bucks on a power cable.

Power transmission has been studied since the key on Franklin’s kite lit up. “Double Helix” terms aside, powering equipment is not a new science.

But then, I have never ridden an electron.


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#77211 - 01/19/05 03:53 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
EllisU Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 27
Loc: Tallahassee, FL
By the way, I am running damp dental floss between my components. The mint flavored floss reduces break-in time.-- Andy

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#77212 - 01/19/05 03:57 PM Re: You might think I'm crazy, but I'm not...
Ned Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 117
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Misfit,

I'm glad it worked out for you ........I will be doing the same as time permits...
_________________________
Axiom Denon Paradigm SVS

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