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#94611 - 06/11/05 12:00 AM Re: Amplifiers
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Rat,

We're all thinking and looking and listening.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.



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#94612 - 06/11/05 12:04 AM Re: Amplifiers
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
bug: not necessarily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not presently convinced that your Denon is performing to specs, as I understand the specs. It very well could be that your Denon is power limiting on instantaneous music peaks. John posted the testing criteria of only 2 channels tested at full power for 5 minutes. Well, you have 5 channels! Or, is it 7 channels? Anyhow, you could be power supply limited.

I really don't like that way of testing a multi-channel receiver. There ought to be a test with ALL channels driven at the same time.

If you are limited by the Denon power supply or something in the Denon, then the monoblocks will have a BIG difference.

Something else to think about on this thread.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#94613 - 06/11/05 12:10 AM Re: Amplifiers
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
bug: the not necessarily was in reference to your comment about the difference being in your head. Our posts came too fast.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#94614 - 06/11/05 12:26 AM Re: Amplifiers
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
It's just like the computer. We only use 10% of the capacity. Or our brains...my wife might have something to say about mine.

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#94615 - 06/11/05 09:40 AM Re: Amplifiers
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
bug: I wish I could think of an "easy" way to test your Denon. Right off hand, the only way I can think of is with a fast rise time, dual trace, storage, oscilloscope. You could measure your power supply voltage versus output power peaks. That would be one indicator of receiver performance. You could also look and see if the output peaks were "flattened." Not many people have those in their homes.

I really would like to know more about these receivers before I make a decision to buy a receiver versus separates. I need to check and see how Outlaw rates their amps.

Anyone have any other ideas for testing the Denon?????
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#94616 - 06/11/05 11:28 PM Re: Amplifiers
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Rat;

Maybe we should show up at the picnic in September. Get enough people to bring their receivers/prepros and amps so that all brands are represented and use Axiom facilities to test our theories. We bring the electronics. Axiom furnishes speakers and techs.

I suggest the testing before the drinking. Plenty of time to drown our sorrows or celebrate successes.

Bug

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#94617 - 06/12/05 02:38 AM Re: Amplifiers
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
Bug,
I think you will find that Axiom has already done alot of the 'testing' b/w amps and other sources and found that IF any differences actually existed, they are so small and subtle that they are not worth the effort for further research, although really no differences b/w most components have been reported for the most part (see past articles by Alan Lofft in the old AudioScene Canada magazine articles)
I certainly know that early research by Axiom and the NRC on the subject have already concluded as such, and they have moved onto other areas of greater concern in audio differences (eg. making the most flat frequency response speaker as possible).
If you hear a difference, all the more power to you, but if you are searching for truth without bias, a proper blind testing is the only viable option at this time, although often unavailable to most folks due to constraints from available switching equipment.
I've done some further testing this weekend even with a tube amp and more and more i'm coming to know that alot of the subjective reports about differences in amp sound is based on perception and not reality. When tested in a proper manner, many of the subjective descriptions disappear. When those who oppose such ideals are confronted with the blind test, they often deny for a 1001 reasons the possibilities why they might fail such a test.
A sad truth, but a truth nonetheless.

See more in the M40 vs M60 thread.


Edited by chesseroo (06/12/05 02:42 AM)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#94618 - 06/12/05 10:07 AM Re: Amplifiers
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Some of us have been discussing amplifier specifications over on the Outlaw board. Here is a link to the FTC rules that some of you may find interesting.

FTC Rule
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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#94619 - 06/12/05 12:00 PM Re: Amplifiers
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Tests may be scientific. My ears are not. But I'm not denying science. I have no doubt that in a blind test I'd pick the lesser. I'm an open minded guy. I like everybody's advice, but I can accept or reject as I want.

Truth is another matter. Sad truths are a part of life.

This subject goes way back. Last night I read an old thread on this forum about musical receivers. The same power discussions then and now.

I have no doubt that Axiom and other firms know and have published answers. Alan's newsletters say 80 to 100 watts is all the power we need. Dr Hsu told me in an email to keep my old receiver (Kenwood VR510). More than enough power (110) and 5.1. Good speakers (like his ventriloquist) and good sub (like his middle range 399.00 model) and I'd have all I needed.

If I had done as either said I'd have more money in the bank.

As it is, I'm happy, the wife's happy, the son's jumping up and down happy.

I should stop. Somebody might throw up!



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#94620 - 06/12/05 12:47 PM Re: Amplifiers
ratpack Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/30/05
Posts: 1155
Loc: Alabama
Bug: as I have posed before, I think that the jury is still out in your specific case.
_________________________
The Rat. M80s, VP-150, QS8s, SVS PC 20-39+, OPPO, Onkyo 703s, Harmony 880 Sony 60" SXRD HDTV

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