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Posted By: michael_d Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/26/07 09:59 PM
I like the little point and shoot cameras for just dropping them on my pocket so that I have it when I don’t want to lug a bag around (which is more often than not). Well a couple weeks ago I was hanging out with a friend who had an SLR and I took a few shots with it. That was probably a mistake because now I want one. It felt good to hold a somewhat normal sized camera again. The one my buddy has was an older Canon Rebel.

The past few days I’ve been looking at camera reviews and asking other friends what they use and think, and then got to thinking…. there’s some real pro’s and excellent armature photographers that frequent this place so I figured I’d ask y’all for input too…

I never was very good and I’m pretty impatient, so I’m starting from ground zero here. In other words, I need to keep it simple. I also have somewhat normal to small hands for a guy, I think. That little Canon I was using the other day fit just fine.

I’m looking at the following cameras.

Canon Rebel XTi
Nikon D40x
Olympus Evolt 510
Olympus Evolt 410
Sony Alpha A100

From doing some quick reading, I’ve gathered some info on each camera worth thinking about, but I’m pretty clueless what else I should be interested in.

All are 10 mega pixel and under $1000 (which is about all I can afford). All but the Olympus 510 are smaller framed SLR’s and the 510 looks to be on the small size too.

The Olympus 510 and Sony have some sort of body image stabilization, and the others need lenses with IS if I want that option. The Olympus and Sony have unique dust control that the others don’t have.

The Nikon D40x required auto focus lenses if auto focus is desired.

The Olympus 510 is new and I can’t find any user reports so it’s hard to tell how it’ll shake out.

Do you camera buffs have any words of wisdom, suggestions, and recommendations?? What do you think about the cameras I have listed? Any I should drop off my shopping list and any I should add?
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/26/07 10:47 PM
Rebel. Excellent selection of lenses, top quality.
Posted By: bray Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/26/07 11:10 PM
Yep.
The Canon is the way to go.
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 04:28 AM
Either the Canon or the Nikon will do you very well... giving pro's and con's of each system is nearly pointless, as it has to do with what works for YOU (kinda like the whole audio/speaker stuff - it needs to work with your ears).

Personally, I like the Canon system (samples of my work can be seen on my website Unit-One Studios, but I could get very similar results with a Nikon body... I just prefer the Canon.

I'd recommend that you go to a camera store and play with both systems... see how they feel in your hands. Go through the menus and see how they feel to you. Both systems are more than capable, but you need to get what works with you.

-Todd...
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 01:31 PM
All my friends use either Canon or Nikon too.

I guess you’re right; I better just go hold a few of these things. The image stabilization in the body was appealing to me from a price standpoint. I’d pay for it once, and not every time I bought a new lens. There’s been too many times I want to take a scenery picture at dusk, or night, and screw it up because I can’t hold the camera still enough.

You have one heck of job there Todd. It must be hell having to go to the races all the time. ...Great stuff.
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 06:23 PM
I love my Canon.

It's all about the lenses.

My father-in-law has a nice, new (more expensive) Nikon. It's a great camera, but it's unnecessarily "big" for me. Unless you have REALLY big hands and/or the Nikon UI makes more sense to you, I don't see any reason NOT to get the Canon.
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 07:11 PM
Quote:

The image stabilization in the body was appealing to me from a price standpoint. I’d pay for it once, and not every time I bought a new lens.



I'm the opposite... I'd rather pay for the image stabalization that will work BEST for the lens that I'm using. When I have my 500mm f/4 (a 3 foot long 10lb lens) it needs a different level of vibration reduction/image stabilization than when I'm using my 70-200mm (1 foot long 3lb lens).

Quote:

There’s been too many times I want to take a scenery picture at dusk, or night, and screw it up because I can’t hold the camera still enough.



IS will help with those situations, but so will faster film (the Canon bodies go up to 1600 and 3200) and faster lenses (the f-stop of a lens). Exposure is a triangle... and if you want to get a given shutter speed (typically 1/focal length for most static shots) then you either need more light or faster film. IS can help in these situations a bit, but it's not a save all... besides, that's what a tripod is for

Quote:

You have one heck of job there Todd. It must be hell having to go to the races all the time. ...Great stuff.



Thank you. It's definitely work (I shot two events last weekend alone)... 14 hour days of shooting and then several long nights to get the images processed and submitted to clients. It is fun, but very much work.

-Todd...
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 07:15 PM
Quote:

Unless you have REALLY big hands and/or the Nikon UI makes more sense to you, I don't see any reason NOT to get the Canon.



The Nikon D40 is quite small (I believe even smaller than the Canon XTi). Personally, I need a large body (I have big hands), but both Nikon and Canon have smaller bodies. Both systems work great, so get what feels best to you.

-Todd...
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 07:54 PM
The Nikon D40x is a small framed camera. But if one wants the auto focus feature, you need to buy the lenses with this built in to them. I’m sure I just screwed that description up, but hopefully you get the point.

Thanks for the IS points. Well taken. I’d love to use a tri-pod, but it’s sorta hard to carry around on the tubes in London, or down crowed streets in Munich or Prague.

The Rebel is looking better all the time.

Not positive, but I think Sony is using Karl Zies(sp?) lenses?
Posted By: AdamP88 Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/27/07 10:11 PM
I think you might have a slight misconception about the Nikon and autofocus. The Canon is essentially the same - autofocus is lens-dependent. If the lens doesn't have it, that's it. That said, almost all consumer lenses in production today are autofocusing lenses. The camera bodies themselves vary as to how many autofocus points are in the viewfinder, the sensitivity of each of those points and how you can choose the points, but the lenses contain the motors that actually focus the glass. As such, autofocus speed can vary depending on the lens, but even the slower autofocus lenses generally focus faster than most point-and-shoot digicams. And Nikon also has IS (they call it VR) lenses, but Canon rules the roost when it comes to the number of IS lenses available, particularly on the telephoto/super-telephoto end.

Some of the Sony's lenses are Karl Zeiss, but not all. I'd say Sony probably has the best shot of actually becoming a contender in the DSLR field simply because of it's size, but Canon and Nikon built their name on photography and are by far the dominant forces in the field.

As for me, I love my Canon 20D. Definitely try out cameras in a shop before you buy, though. I found the Rebel to be too small for my big hands, and felt the general Nikon layout wasn't as intuitive to me as the Canon one (though admittedly I've used nothing but Canons since the film days so of course I'm more comfortable with them).
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/28/07 12:19 AM
Thanks Adam. I don't remember where I read that stuff about the Nikon D40x, but the reviewer made a point to call out that it takes a special type or size lens other than the rest of the Nikon line...., I wish I could remember where I saw that.... that was about the only negative comment the reviewer had to say about it though.

So what's wrong with Olympus? Do they suck?
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/28/07 01:47 AM
Quote:

I don't remember where I read that stuff about the Nikon D40x, but the reviewer made a point to call out that it takes a special type or size lens other than the rest of the Nikon line.



DPReview: D40X
Read the 'Cons' under conclusions for a description of the AF "issue".

Quote:

So what's wrong with Olympus? Do they suck?



I've never used the Oly... but in the world of SLRs, the main two are Canon and Nikon. There are just so many bodies, lenses, etc. for these systems you can't really go wrong. If you buy lenses for the Rebel XTi and decide you want to upgrade to a $8k 1-Series, the lenses will work.

-Todd...
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/28/07 01:38 PM
Ya, that's where I saw that! So what do you think about that? Is it a big enough issue to drop that camera off my shopping list?

I live out in the boonies 300 miles from the nearest city where I can handle cameras so this information is helpful for when I do venture towards civilization and check these things out. I need to take a trip next week, so I’ll be looking then.

If I do pick up a canon next week, what lens would you recommend I pick up for multi use? I would like one lens that would get in the way while I’m being Joe Tourist in Germany this fall. One that’s good for scenery, buildings, people, beer tents and those dusk/night shots while wandering around the cities…. When I’m traveling, I don’t like to have much hanging off my neck if you know what I mean.

Thanks again Todd.
Posted By: CV Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/28/07 02:09 PM
300 miles from the nearest city? My head is spinning.
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/28/07 08:45 PM
Quote:

Ya, that's where I saw that! So what do you think about that? Is it a big enough issue to drop that camera off my shopping list?



I don't really see it as a huge issue, but it really depends on what lenses you were planning on using in the long run. If you knew there was a specific lens you wanted to use that was not AF-S or AF-I.

Quote:

If I do pick up a canon next week, what lens would you recommend I pick up for multi use?



It depends on your budget... my personal 'all around' favorite is the 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS, but it's ~$400. Also, with the 1.6xCF on the XTi the 28mm can be a tad tight... 28mm x 1.6 = ~50mm, which is the 'standard' length for film cameras. If you are serious about landscapes you may be better off with two (or more) lenses... but for a single walk around lens the 28-135 is great. I'd be interested to check-out the EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS, but that's around $500. If that is out of your price range there are some other lenses, but I'm not really up on them.

Wide angles (landscapes) between 17-30mm, Standard (what your eye sees) is 50mm, Portraits go around 135mm, and sports and stuff over 200mm. It's tough to get one lens that covers it all, but there are some good pairs (like the 24-70mm, then the 70-200, a 300, and 500, etc.).

-Todd...
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 01:33 AM
Mike:
I'd lean towards the Rebel as well. Don't forget other lens manufacturers either to save some money....

Something like this might do the job for you... You can get it at a reputable dealer like B&H for $379.
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 01:34 AM
So it's advisable to go with Sigma? I'd been planning on sticking with Canon lenses, whenever I have the disposable income for that instead of the other 14 expensive hobbies I have.
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 02:55 AM
Quote:

So it's advisable to go with Sigma?



I prefer the Canon/Nikon glass as to the 'knock-offs'. They are of higher quality and hold their value longer. They are a great alternative to get you into something with better features (for example, 70-200mm f/2.8 from sigma rather than the 70-200mm f/4 from Canon).

Like everything in this world, you get what you way for.

-Todd...
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 11:41 AM
Quote:

Like everything in this world, you get what you way for.




True, Todd.... but this isn't for professional use. I think the average amateur would be better off buying two Sigmas than one Canon or Nikon piece of glass....

I think the Sigmas are much like Axioms: They get you 90% of the way there for 1/3 the cost...
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 02:46 PM
Thanks guys. The more I read up on these things, the Rebel seams like the logical choice. I’ve got to have image stabilization, regardless. Does that Sigma have it? I didn’t notice it noted anywhere.

Circling back to the Olympus Evolt 510. There’s not much written on it yet seeing how it isn’t available yet. One thing I did see however is they are calling it a four thirds frame. I know it’s smaller, but why call it 4/3’s? That’s larger than one to one. I don’t get it.
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 03:41 PM
Quote:

I’ve got to have image stabilization, regardless. Does that Sigma have it?

One thing I did see however is they are calling it a four thirds frame. I know it’s smaller, but why call it 4/3’s? That’s larger than one to one. I don’t get it.




Hi Mike:
No, that particular Sigma does not have have it. Keep in mind that stabilization is really only helpful in telephoto lenses..."normal" and wise lenses don't really benefit for reasons I can explain later.

The "Four-Thirds" is a ratio, not a size. Olympus' sensor is a little more like a 4:3 screen ratio; the other manufacturers' are a bit wider-than-tall (not quite 16:9, but maybe 14:9! )
I have a Nikon D70, and I absolutely love the thing. Best camera I've ever owned. Even though it's a few years old, it's still a marvelous beast. 5MP is plenty for 8x10 and 11x14 prints, and I seldom do much cropping, so I'm perfectly happy. Easy operation, but allows as much manual control as I want. Great colors, excellent contrast, and amazingly-fast electronics. Ready to snap a pic in less than 1 second. When I bought it was $1k, which was more than I had ever spent on a camera, but it took about an hour to realize that it was worth every penny.

If you're starting out, I'd suggest the same thing as the others, look at the lenses and prices of Canon and Nikon, and pick which ever 'system' fits your needs best. Do you have friends that have a Canon SLR? An old uncle that has tons of old Nikon gear? That might be a factor as you could share lenses with them. I took a peek at Nikon's page regarding D40 lens compatibility...
D40x:
"Nikon F mount with AF coupling and AF contacts Type G or D AF Nikkor: 1) AF-S, AF-I: All functions supported; 2) Other Type G or D AF Nikkor: All functions supported except autofocus; 3) PC Micro-Nikkor 85mm f/2.8D: Can only be used in mode M; all other functions supported except autofocus; 4) Other AF Nikkor*¹/AI-P Nikkor: All functions supported except autofocus and 3D Color Matrix Metering II; 5) Non-CPU: Can be used in mode M, but exposure meter does not function; electronic range finder can be used if maximum aperture is f/5.6 or faster; 6) IX Nikkor lenses cannot be used
*¹ Excluding lenses for F3AF"

Ok, most modern current lenses are AF-S or AF-I, and those should work perfectly with the D40. But a few lenses are still 'D', like the 50mm 1.8 that I mention below. That's a bit of an issue because the autofocus won't work. Otherwise it's fine. Nikon's image stabilization stuff are 'VR' lenses, and I don't see anything that would indicate that these wouldn't work with the D40, but I would be very careful about this. I'd try to email or talk to Nikon directly for clarification. My advice might be either make darn sure the D40 will work the the lenses you want, or to just save your pennies or bite the credit-card bullet and bump up to the D80.

When you buy an SLR, you're buying much more than just the camera, you're investing into that company's products. Canon and Nikon are the most established brands in the 'pro-sumer' area, so you can't go wrong with either.

As far as lenses go, I don't really know much about Canon glass. For Nikon, you can't beat the simple Nikkor 50mm 1.8 ($100) for razor-sharp optics and wide aperture. No zoom, so it's all about composition and optics. For dimmly lit museums where flash photography isn't allowed, you can still get great pix without necessarily needing a tripod. Really superb lens for next to nothing.

For general purpose, I have the 'kit' 18-70 lens and it's great except for a slight vignetting problem when it's wide open (dark corners). Very quick focusing, and takes lovely shots. I would check out the newer 18-135, as that will give you a nice top-end zoom. I also have their common and cheap 70-300mm lens, and it's just fine for what it is. Not the greatest and takes pretty soft pix, but it's certainly a darn long lens on the D70 (105-450mm equivalent)

I used to have a Sigma 28-300 on my old 35mm film Rebel, and it was a fine lens for most things. Nothing wrong at all with 3rd-party lenses, and some of them are very good, but I like the look and feel of the name brand ones better. I know from first-hand experience that the name-brand lenses hold their value better than the Sigma/Tamron lenses, should you ever decide to sell lenses.

If this is a 'once-in-a-lifetime' sort of trip, I would try to have a good wide-angle lens. I'd rent or borrow one if need be. On most digital SLR's, there's a magnification factor. The way the optics work magnifies the image compared to a traditional 35mm SLR. At least on the D70, the lens multiplication factor is 1.5x, which means that a 18-70 lens actually acts like a 27-105mm lens, this can be a problem for wide-angle shots, as 27mm isn't really all that wide. I doubt you'll ever feel a wanting for more telephoto, but I do for wide-angle. So, even though 18mm sounds pretty wide-angle, it really isn't. I'm thinking landscapes, cathedrals, etc; you're going to want some panoramic, wide-angle shots and from my experience that may be tricky with just an 18mm low end. The 12-24mm Nikkor would be awesome, but that's a $900+ lens.

Enjoy the camera and enjoy the trip. Just make sure you get the camera way before the trip so you can take a few hundred shots first and learn how the camera works!
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 05:49 PM
Thanks again for the info. 4.3…got it Mark!

Peter,

One buddy has the Nikon D80, and another has the Canon 30D. Both of these guys have gone off the deep end with their systems and have more lenses, flashes, multipliers, double battery kits, etc….. than I can ever imagine needing, but understand how one can get carried away with a “hobby”. But anyway, I’ve played a little with both and thought they were just too big for lugging around while traveling. That’s why I’m looking at the little fellers. So I figured that I’d pick up a little guy for traveling, and possibly one of the full sized guys for around home shooting and I could use the same lenses. Then I stumbled onto the Olympus cameras while surfing reviews on the smaller cameras and they always seam to compare them to others, which the Evolts are compared. So although price does weigh in on my choice, it’s not the driver for looking at the small cameras. It's convenient carrying more than anything.

Thanks for all the information on Nikon, especially the lenses. That’s all very helpful. My fall trip isn’t really a trip of a lifetime or anything all that special. I like to travel and go somewhere every year for a few weeks. I took a pocket camera with me on last year’s trip and was very disappointed with the photos when I got home. I’m looking for a win-win here. IE: small enough for convenient traveling, but takes one hell of a picture and wont be a complete waste of money, or obsolete in 12 months. These Digital SLR's apear to be the best solution for me.
Posted By: James_T Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 06:19 PM
Here are my 2 cents.

I went on a trip to Europe for 3 weeks this year and wanted to get a decent digital camera that would not cost so much I had to eat bread and cheese on the trip. So, I looked at several options and ended up choosing the Nikon D40 for the following reasons:
• Resolution and quality-wise it met my needs. I wanted to take good quality photos while on vacation, but not something I would try to make a living from.
• It is "light weight" so I would actually use it and carry it around day-to-day (I still do even though I am now home, you never know when a great shop will pop up!).
• It was "affordable".
• I had no lenses. If I already had canon lenses I would have gone with Canon.
• I wanted a camera that would be easy for me to use and would “get out of my way” while trying to take photos. Meaning, I did not have to drill through 4 levels of menu from one photo to the next. Most of the time I set the camera to Aperture Priority and adjust the aperture until I get the speed and effect I want.

I figured if I got the D40 and actually kept up with the hobby for more than a year, then I'd see what was out there and get a "better" camera. There are things I would liked to have had such as depth of field preview and more auto focus sensors, but I really can’t say I feel a ‘lack’ because of it.

I read reviews on several sites (dpreview.com, dcresources.com, even the sometimes reviled kenrockwell.com, as well as various forums for nikon and canon) went to the store and held the cameras to get a feel for them, then purchased the D40. I have no regrets so far. Well, I’d love to get my hands on the nikkor 18-200mm DX VR lens, but don’t have the $1000.00 I’d need to get one!

If you like I can send you a link to my smugmug account and you can check out some of what I've shot.
james
Posted By: cgolf Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/29/07 07:28 PM
I had a Canon Rebel XT for 2 years. I have had Canons all my life but I was never happy with the XT. Recently I bought a Nikon D40, not the 40x and I have been thrilled!! The pictures are honestly at least 10 times brighter, crisper and over all better. It could be that I have the settings more accurate on the Nikon but I think it is more. I love this camera. I bought the hard to get 18-200 VR lens to go with it although the 18-55 that comes with it is a very good lens. Go to Kenrockwell.com and read what he says about all the different cameras. You will not be dissapointed with the D40.
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/30/07 01:18 AM
thanks for that tip. I enjoyed Ken Rockwell's take on his camera's and tech articles. Very informative. I find it refreshing to read reviews where the reviewer/user doen't try to up sell anything. That D40 sounds like a winner.
Posted By: cgolf Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/30/07 11:14 AM
I caved and spent $850 on the 18-200 VR. How does one justify that much money for a lens? I don't know and don't know that I can logically. Having said that, I love the D40 and this lens is awesome. The pictures are unbelievable, sharp, crisp and just beautiful. The 18-55 took great pics too but this lens is fantastic. It did help that I sold the 18-55 on ebay so I recooped some of my money. Get one and just forget the cost. It's worth it!!!
Posted By: TCorzett Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/30/07 02:00 PM
Quote:

How does one justify that much money for a lens?



Enjoyment!

It's only the start though... once you get a taste for the expensive glass, you'll never stop! I have about 2x the $$$ into my camera/lenses than my car. Just make sure if you have a girlfriend/wife you buy something for them after you drop $6k on a 500mm f/4

-Todd...
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/30/07 07:13 PM
OK, so I’ve been reading Ken Rockwell’s review on his “favorite” camera, the Nikon D40. He likes it better than the D40x, and I sorta understand why, but not entirely.

He says the D40 has a faster default ISO of 200 verses 100 and it has a faster sync speed. He also goes on to explain why the difference between 6 megapixels and 10 is not something to worry about unless someone wants to print images out larger than 8 X 11.

After looking at the D40x specifications, it has an ISO of 100, so what is Ken referring to? Why can’t I just select 200 if that’s so important.

Also, maybe it’s just plain over my head, but I don’t understand why this flash sync speed is so important to him. I don’t typically use a flash, unless it’s inside.

Am I over working this?? It’s not like I’m a professional or anything….
You have read through this right? Fantastic site for digital cameras.

Anyway, I would guess he's referring to the lowest ISO, not the only ISO. The D40 can do ISO settings of 100, 200,400,800,1600, and 3200. Auto and manual settings. That's a fine range. My D70's lowest setting is only 200, which has caused me problems for brightly lit scenes if I want to do blurred motion photography (think bridal-veil effect on a nicely lit waterfall). Having ISO 100 is great, as it means less noise (imager noise), and more flexibility. Changing the ISO on a digital camera affects the gain on the imager. You can be pretty safe just setting this to Auto and letting the camera deal with it. Even if it bumps up the ISO too high, it's a lot easier to digitally fix a grainy picture than it is a blurry one.

The higher the ISO, the more sensitive it is to light, meaning you need less light take a picture. But the higher the sensitivity, the more noise in the photo. Hey, it's just like speakers!

In looking at the link provided, I now understand the limitations of the D40 a bit better. The only lenses that will autofocus are the more expensive, newer variety that have their own internal motors. For instance, I have Nikon's good old 70-300mm telephoto that's a decent standard lens and is pretty cheap at less than a couple hundred bucks. That lens won't autofocus with the D40/x. To get a 70-300mm autofocus, you have to spend $500 for the AF-S version. Now that's a *much* nicer lens anyway, so it's probably worth the $$$ anyhow.

And you're completely right about the flash sync speed. If you don't a lot of flash photography (I don't, hate it. Flash to me is like an equalizer on a stereo: it artificially colors the material), then it shouldn't matter. It would matter if you're trying to do higher-speed stop-motion flash photography. Flashes can be useful for stopping motion, and a high sync speed means the flash can 'keep up' with the camera to freeze the action more effectively. Nikon is pretty famous for their flash technology, and so I'm sure the D40x's flash technology is fine for just about any situation. DPReview doesn't mention it as a 'Con', and they are quite nit-picky some times, so flash sync is a non-issue (IMHO).

If you're going the D40 route, I'd do the lens shopping first and make sure that the lens(es) that fit your needs and budget will autofocus on the camera. If they do, then the D40x is a truly excellent choice.

But again, even if you do use older lenses on the D40x, manual focusing IS NOT the end of the world. None of Ansel Adam's cameras were auto anything!
Posted By: cgolf Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/30/07 08:33 PM
I've been having the same conversations and dilema with myself. D40 or D40x. I have the D40, love it and am totally happy with it. However, 10mp vs 6mp?? In my mind there has to be a difference although I understand that there isn't unless I'm blowing something up to 20x30, etc. Rockwell says that the megapixels isn't that important. The flash to me is not a big deal and the ISO isn't either. The D40x gives you 100 vs. the D40 at 200 which is a plus if it's bright bright outside. So far, I have not had an issue with 200 ISO. For me, the positive to moving "up" to the X is the 10 megapixels. In truth, that isn't a big plus except in my head so I'm sticking with the D40. I don't have older lenses so that's not an issue. All my lenses were Canon but I've sold all of them. Either way you win. My next step up is the D200 or whatever new model comes out first.
Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/30/07 11:43 PM
Yes Peter, I've read that review and others on that sight. Imaging Resources too.

I think I’m going to blow my $1000 budget….oh well, that’s my MO. Set budget, blow it to hell, feel guilty about it, rationalize it, justify it, then spend more on other crap I don’t need, then get drunk.

I’m still going to try and get my hands on all these cameras, but I’m guessing the D40x with kit lens, one of those fancy 200 mm lenses and the other fancy wide angle lens will end up on my CC before too long.

That little Olympus 510 is very attractive to me though, as well as the Rebel XTi. Too bad there are no reviews on the 510 yet.

….I better stay away from Amazon for a while until I can get my hands on these things.
That's the spirit!

If you're going to spend the coin for a nice system, you might as well spend what it takes to do it right. In six months (or three, or twelve - whatever!), you won't mind the extra few hundred bucks but you will appreciate that you bought what you really wanted. That's my motto anyway.

Compare the price of the Kit + zoom lens vs just the body and a nicer, 28-200ish lens. It's very nice to not have to carry around a bag of lenses if you don't have to, especially on vacation. I'd also take some time to play around with a 'regular' lens before spending the dough on a super-wide angle. You may find that you don't need it, as everyone's photographic vision is a bit different. While I might have complained about the 28mm not being wide enough, in the 2.5 years I've owned my D70 it's never bothered me enough to force buying a wider angle lens.

Photography is very much like home audio. There's really no limit to what you can spend on gear, and the laws of diminishing returns is in full affect.

Oh, and if you need suggestions as to where to buy it, I'd heartily recommend B&H Photo. They usually have fairly competitive prices, and are a legit store. There are many photography stores (mostly located in NYC) that are sort of less than legit, so be careful if you find prices that seem too low to believe. Dealing with some of them can be the complete opposite of dealing with Axiom customer service, for instance.
Posted By: DanielBMe Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/31/07 12:38 PM
I've been looking at buying either the Rebelxt or D40X. Unfortunately here in Canada it's around $800. I noticed that I can get it almost $200 cheaper in the US even with the exchange rate. Does anyone know if there's a problem with buying one south of the border? Will they warranty be valid in Canada?
Posted By: skyhawk669 Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/31/07 12:59 PM
I myself have my eye on that puppy...


Canada vs. US Warranty...

Camera manufacturers can be very picky about authorized dealers vs. warranties. For instance, here in the US, some retailers sell 'Grey Market' gear. It's usually exactly the same as the normal gear (made in the same factory, etc), but it doesn't carry the same warranty. The benefit is that they're a usually a bit cheaper, but there's no warranty on it.

Nikon/Canon USA is a seperate business entity from Nikon/Canon Canada, and so the warranties are different and probably not cross-supported. I would email and/or call the companies directly to confirm that.

I would assume that if you bought a USA-Warranty camera, that you would need to send it back to the US service department, should you have problems.

Edit: this seems to be in agreement with what I said, at least for Nikon.
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/31/07 09:32 PM
Man, I've been shooting old-school with those for 25 years.....








Posted By: michael_d Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/31/07 10:41 PM
Hey I have a buddy who has a camera something like that. I don’t know what the right terminology is or the name of the camera, but he told me his camera is one of an extremely very small number still working. He had a heck of a time restoring it.

It’s a wood box of sorts like the one in the picture above. He develops the pictures by using a small brush and lightly ‘brushing’ water over this special cotton bond paper. He then frames them with hand made diamond willow. The photos are nothing short of gorgeous. Very rustic, unique and stunning to look at. Anyone know what that technique is??
Posted By: bray Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/31/07 11:14 PM
Here is the camera I started my career on.



Worked in a huge studio full of em.
4x5, 5x7, 8x10 and 11x14 sheets of film.
Exposure times on some sets could be 2 hrs at F45.

My oh my how times have changed
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 05/31/07 11:35 PM
Quote:

Exposure times on some sets could be 2 hrs at F45.

My oh my how times have changed




Jeeesh, Brady. You're freakin' old!
Posted By: bray Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 06/01/07 12:23 AM
You got me by a year dont ya.?
Posted By: pmbuko Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 06/01/07 01:32 AM
With exposure times that long, you could expose yourself for minutes at a time in front of the lens without showing up in the print.
Posted By: skyhawk669 Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 06/01/07 12:23 PM
Are you talking from experience Peter?
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Digital SLR users – input please. - 06/01/07 03:47 PM
Don't. Ask.
After reading Rockwell’s sight and other users, that Nikon 18 – 200 VR lens looks like one hell of a lens and about perfect for a traveling, one lens set up.

What would the comparable lens to this one from Canon be??

And when looking at lenses, they always have an ‘F’ number. What’s that? That question alone should confirm any suspicions you may already have about my photographic experience….
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Canon's comparable lens to Nikon's 18-200? - 06/01/07 05:19 PM
F-stop determines depth of field (very simply speaking, as my camera experience is maybe 1 level above yours). The lower the F-stop available, the more flexibility you have in taking shots in lower light (for one thing). I'm sure the real photographers will chime in shortly.

18-200 seems like an awfully wide range for a zoom lens--going from wide angle to telephoto seems odd to me. How much does that thing weigh?
Ken Rockwell loves it and it's so popular that it's hard to find. When you do find one, it's selling over MSRP and it was releaced two years ago.

Amazon has it listed at 1.5 pounds. http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000BY52NU/...;pf_rd_i=507846
That *is* a hell of a lens. With that range, it's conceivable that it's all the lens you'd ever need, which would be great for traveling. It is $750, so you're definitely paying for the convenience of having a nice wide end and a great telephoto lens. B&H Photo has them, though backordered.

I don't think Canon has any lenses like that. The 28-105 and 28-135 are somewhat similar in their zoom ranges, and both of those are regarded as great lenses (at least they were back when I owned Canon gear). A bit cheaper too at $450ish with Canon's IS technology, which is the same as Nikon's VR. But there is quite a difference between the *awesome* flexibility of 18-200 vs. just *great* flexibility of 28-135....

The wide-open f-stop number is normally inversely proportional to how expensive the lens will be. The lower that number, the more money it will suck out of your wallet.

Seriously though, it stands for 'f-stop', and it's a fractional measurement of how much light the lens allows to pass through it. For bright scenes, you (or the camera's software) will 'stop down' the lens to restrict the amount of light hitting the imager. Less light means the opposite. How long the shutter remains open is the shutter speed. Longer time = more light on the imager. It is this balanced dance of light, aperture, and shutter speed that is photography. Throw off this balance, and you have under- or over-exposed photos.

Of interesting note, the human eye is about an f2.1 to f8.3 lens (according to Wikipedia). A camera's iris works the same way. Opening in the dark, closing for bright. Walk into the bathroom and flip on the lights in the middle of the night and you have just experienced overexposure. Stub your toe on the dresser on the way back to bed and you've just experienced underexposure.

That 3.5-5.6 number means that at full wide-angle, it goes down to f3.5. At full telephoto, f5.6 is as much light as it can pass. Those are pretty common numbers for a consumer-grade zoom lens. Adequate for most situations, but possibly not great enough for lower-light photography without a flash. Though its my opinion that with modern digital cameras that can do ISO 1600+ and the amazing noise reduction done both in-camera and post-processing, this is less of an issue than it used to be. My 28-70 lens is also an f3.5-5.6, and I've never really had any problems capturing low-light situations. Really, that range should be completely adequate for a beginner. If you're curious what can be accomplished with a really low f-stop lens, I'd encourage you to pick up a cheap 50mm f1.8. They're usually less than $100. Maybe *way* less than $100 if you buy used.

A really exquisite and expensive telephoto lens might be an f2.8, where as a 'common' telephoto lens might be f5.6. That 2.8 will allow you to shoot in lower light (or more commonly) at faster speeds. Remember, shutter speed and f-stops go hand-in-hand, and it's fairly important that you understand that relationship if you want to take your photos 'to the next level'.

Those giant telephoto lenses you see at sporting events are really low f-stop lenses. This allows those photographers to use higher shutter speeds to stop the action without using a flash. They also cost as much as a nice used car.

For instance, the Nikkor 70-200 f2.8 lens is $1,600. The Nikkor 70-300 4.5-5.6 VR ED is $480. A lot of that price difference is in the quality of glass and lens engineering to produce a variale zoom that maintains a stable f-stop throughout the range.

I'd highly recommend reading this.

Quote:

After reading Rockwell’s sight and other users, that Nikon 18 – 200 VR lens looks like one hell of a lens and about perfect for a traveling, one lens set up.

What would the comparable lens to this one from Canon be??

And when looking at lenses, they always have an ‘F’ number. What’s that? That question alone should confirm any suspicions you may already have about my photographic experience….



Thanks... this is going to be an expensive hobby. I can tell already.

Olympus has an 18-180mm F 3.5 - 6.3 lens for their 4/3 cameras. It's pretty light too. Looks like I better put it back on the shopping list.. dangit..

Where'd you see that $750 for the Nikon Lens? B/H?

nevermind.... I saw it at B/H.
Just as with home theater, you get what you put into it, but the law of diminishing returns is probably a bigger factor than you might think. A huge part of photography is personal expression and composition, aspects unrelated to the hardware. Really, just about any lens from any known manufacturer (Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Tamron, Sigma, etc) will be fine for someone starting out. So much of it is in composition and timing of the photograph itself. Sometimes the difference between a 'picture' and a 'photograph' is in the matting and framing, which has nothing to do with your camera *or* your photographic skills.

Honestly, I'd say that most people (myself included) are pretty content with a decent 28ish-70ish f3.5-5.6 'standard lens', and then maybe a higher 80ish-200+ 'zoom lens'. You don't need to go overboard on the lenses, at least in the beginning. None of the relatively expensive lenses are really required, as you can take fantastic photographs with little more than a 50mm lens.

Quote:

Thanks... this is going to be an expensive hobby. I can tell already.

Olympus has an 18-180mm F 3.5 - 6.3 lens for their 4/3 cameras. It's pretty light too. Looks like I better put it back on the shopping list.. dangit..

Where'd you see that $750 for the Nikon Lens? B/H?

nevermind.... I saw it at B/H.



The f/stop refers to the aperture (or size of the hole) that the shutter opens to while a photo is being taken, which regulates how much light is allowed through to the film/sensor.

Here's a link with more than you need to know.
Thanks Peter(s). I got it now. Maybe if I keep asking these dumb questions I'll figure out how to take a picture.

I found a sight with some info and test results on both lenses.

http://www.popphoto.com/cameralenses/2695/lens-test-olympus-zuiko-digital-ed-18-180mm-f35-63-af.html

http://www.popphoto.com/cameralenses/2763/lens-test-nikon-18-200mm-f35-56g-dx-vr-af-s.html
Posted By: michael_d ordered the Olympus - 06/02/07 08:06 PM
Ah piss on it….. I got tired of researching and just ordered the Olympus Evolt 510. I never was much for having patience and my trip to the big city got delayed for two weeks, so I wont be able to play with any of these cameras. Plus it’s my B-day Monday

I downloaded a bunch of high res pictures that someone posted that he took with the slightly lower level Evolt 410 and was dazzled buy them. If I can learn to take picures like that with the same type of camera, I'll be a happy camper.

I got a kit that comes with two lenses. Some NYC store has them in stock and it’ll ship one day air on Monday. ( 17th street Photo. ) I hope they are legit. They say they’re authorized….

Olympus Evolt E-510 Live Preview/Dual IS
Two Lens Outfit with 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 and 40-150mm f4.0-5.6 Zuiko Digital Lenses -58mm-
Olympus XD 2GB Panorama Picture Card **Type-M**
$1080 shipped.

Another friend of mine and I got to taking about this and he said he was interested in buying one of the 4/3 cameras. He offered to buy this one from me if I don’t like it.

Now I can get off my ass and do some work. My friggin but's sore from sitting at the computor researching these things for the past week.
Posted By: PeterChenoweth Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/02/07 08:53 PM
Congrats on the decision! That combo sounds great. Olympus makes great equipment. My first digital camera was a little Olympus point-and-shoot, and it was a heck of a nice camera at the time.

I have heard of 17th Street photo, but I don't directly remember if it's + or -. It looks like they're a good one from the ratings here .

Now I don't wish to alarm you, and it's likely that your transaction will go through without a hitch, judging from the feedback they've received. But just in case it doesn't, I can tell you what some of the 'scammy' stores do...

They will call you on Monday and try to 'upsell' you to a different model, or tell you that you need to pay $xxx more for the US Version. Sometimes they will disguise this sell as a 'your credit card didn't go through', or 'address verification' or some such nonsense. They very often call and will try to sell you accessories (which sometimes can even be the manual for the camera). I have heard stories that cameras were suddenly out of stock when people refused to buy the vastly overpriced accessories. I've also read stories of cameras just never arriving and credit card charges sticking for weeks before being resolved. I have heard stories of folks receiving grey market goods when there were supposed to be genuine US stuff. That's a pretty common tactic with some of the lowball-price places.

The internet can be a wild place to buy cameras!

When you receive your stuff, I'd just make sure you have all of the US Warranty cards and that any serial numbers match between boxes, documentation, and product. If any of it is suspect (photocopied manual, missing warranty cards, opened boxes, missing charger, etc) then be wary.
Posted By: DanielBMe Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/04/07 02:01 PM
I just bought the Nikon D40 camera this weekend.
Nikon D40

Can't wait to start using it. God it has an awful lot of functions. It's going to take me awhile to figure them all out. Good thing the camera came with a dvd on digital photograpy. At least now I can finally take a pic of my home theatre setup!
Posted By: cgolf Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/04/07 03:35 PM
Great choice. I've had the D40 for about 4 months and added the VR 18-200 lens about 2 months ago. For me, this camera takes better pics than anything I've ever had and I've had many different cameras. Just a suggestion, follow Ken Rockwell's settings and your pics will be brilliant, crisp and fantastic. You an always adjust if you want but his settings give you a great starting point. This camera should do everything you want.
Posted By: James_T Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/04/07 05:59 PM
Here is a link to the aforementioned guide. There is also a PDF you can download.
I used it to start getting a sense of my D40, but have moved on to my own personal favorites. It's a great way to get comfortable with what your camera can do.
Posted By: DanielBMe Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/06/07 03:04 PM
Quote:

Here is a link to the aforementioned guide. There is also a PDF you can download.
I used it to start getting a sense of my D40, but have moved on to my own personal favorites. It's a great way to get comfortable with what your camera can do.




Thanks! I'll definitely take a look at the guide!

I'm also taking two courses from Henry's Camera for the D40. It's a 3hr course for $75. Then there's a level 2. Same thing 3hrs for $75.
Posted By: michael_d Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/14/07 02:23 PM
My toy arrived last Tuesday and I’ve been playing with it some, reading the manual some…..

It took me about five minutes to realize I’m completely lost. This thing has more friggin settings, options, modes, etc than I will ever understand. I am overwhelmed. Heck I don’t know which record mode to use……. Holly crap, what did I get myself into?? Is there a good DSLR for dummies book worth getting?? Sonofabitch, this is going to take years to figure out! UGGG…

Other than being completely overwhelmed, this is very nice little camera. I shouldn’t really call it a little camera either. I’ve read where some folks say it will fit in a pocket……ya, right…maybe a pocket in a parka, but it ain’t fitting in any pockets of mine.
Posted By: medic8r Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/14/07 03:14 PM
Congrats on the new toy - I'm sure you will get to know it well after a while. Just hang in there. At least there's no film to waste. You can just start taking pictures ad lib and keep only the good ones, sending the bad ones off to a digital graveyard.

Tangent alert: Are you still racing cars/bikes/anything with wheels?
Posted By: PeterChenoweth Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/14/07 04:10 PM
Hee hee hee. The fun of a new toy. You'll figure it all out, in time. There are dozens and dozens of good books about photography. Some simple, some complex.

See if you can find a 'Magic Lantern Guide' to your camera. It's kind of like an extended user manual. All the same stuff is covered, but it will offer lots of tips, tricks, and background info about what's going on. I basically stuck the manual to my D70 in the box and use the MLG anytime I have a question about a feature. It's a fantastic reference, and I can only assume that one for your Olympus will be equally valuable.

If your problems are more of the, 'how do I set the camera to do XXXX', then time and reading the manual will help. If your questions are more, 'I have no feaking idea what F5.6 1/60 means in the viewfinder', then I'd look into getting a general photography book or even attending a photography class. Head on down to your nearest Barnes & Noble (or whatever) and browse a bit. The browsing is important, as you need to really look through the books and see if they make sense to you. Getting one that's too technical will frustrate you further. I know I've actually seen 'DSLR's for Dummies' on the shelf. Maybe a good place to start? Many schools and art galleries offer photography classes. One would offer some invaluable insights in how to really use a camera to take 'photographs' instead of 'pictures'.

When in doubt, the camera should have a slew of 'automatic' modes (like fully automatic, sports, landscape, etc, etc). Use them! I find that the vast majority of the time my Nikon sets up the camera exactly as I would anyway, and all I have to do is worry about composing the shot.

Oh yeah, and as medic8r says, no need to worry about film! Excellent point to remember. Just play with it and have fun. Take hundreds of crummy pictures while you learn, it doesn't matter!

Quote:

My toy arrived last Tuesday and I’ve been playing with it some, reading the manual some…..

It took me about five minutes to realize I’m completely lost. This thing has more friggin settings, options, modes, etc than I will ever understand. I am overwhelmed. Heck I don’t know which record mode to use……. Holly crap, what did I get myself into?? Is there a good DSLR for dummies book worth getting?? Sonofabitch, this is going to take years to figure out! UGGG…

Other than being completely overwhelmed, this is very nice little camera. I shouldn’t really call it a little camera either. I’ve read where some folks say it will fit in a pocket……ya, right…maybe a pocket in a parka, but it ain’t fitting in any pockets of mine.



Posted By: michael_d Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/14/07 05:31 PM
Thanks Peter. I’ll look for that book. I need the basic, that’s for sure. This thing is unreal with all the manual settings it will let me do. It even has manual sharpness, color, contrast…. These are things my film camera did not have. My old 35mm had a little needle in the view finder that went from read to green. Aperture and shutter speed were about it. This digital thing has control over everything.

Hey Doc, yes, I still race. I’m in the “old fart” division. Snow –X, Hill climb, Motto-X. I also build a race engine every now and then for some of the stock car and ¼ miler guys.
Posted By: tomtuttle Re: ordered the Olympus - 06/14/07 08:59 PM
Shoulda got the Canon.

Seriously, just use the auto modes for a while and see if you even need to go full manual. My Rebel XT has modes for portraits, landscapes, sports, night, etc. so I rarely feel the need for additional fiddling.
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