"budget" 2 channel amp in the neighbourhood of 150 wpc/8 ohms and 200+/-wpc at 4 ohms comparable to units from Emotiva, Outlaw or perhaps B&K (to go upscale a little further but still be cost effective).

I thought it might be both interesting and helpfull to both Axiom and it's customers if we had an "Ideas" thread, any thoughts?

I doubt you will see Axiom try to play the Emotiva game though I would love to see them become an authorized dealer of Denon AVR's that can packaged with their speaker systems.

With Denon they would have to compete with 6Ave and the likes. I think if they could sell their 2 channel amp a little cheaper say $1500, it would sell very well. I know I would consider it alot more than I do right now.

I find Denon to be more attractive than the Sherwood Newcastle brand. If they offer the Axiom 5 year warranty (like they do with their current receivers) and can find ways to package them with systems they could compete very well.

Even selling them on their own, the longer warranty might be incentive for some paying regular MSRP than going to places like 6ave. I don't know much about 6ave. Are they authorized and are their discounted Denon units refurbished or new (or are they both)?

6ave is one of Denon's approved online E-tailers and they sell new Denons at some very good pricing, well with an avs discount applied.

Jakewash, have you ever looked into purchasing anything from them and the costs involved? As a Canadian or anyone living outside the united states, are they able to obtain savings (after shipping costs, border costs) that offer enough incentive to import their products?

During our last teleconference we were actually discussing this (ideas and getting input). Ken, Peter, Randy and I are just four. It would be nice to get the Axiom folks a broader perspective of things they float by the four of us for input. The hard part is going to be how we go about asking for forum input without letting the cat out of a bag when Axiom does not want it out running around chasing mice. One thing about this company is that they do not generally speak to future products like other companies do. I think this is a smart move on their part after seeing how far out in the weeds that practice can go if the company misses a release date. Outlaw’s latest is a good example….. I saw the same thing happen with Sherwood Newcastle and Carry Audio. They announced a pending product, missed promised release dates and were crucified by folks who were waiting for them.

So rambling aside, just know that Axiom does want input. We just need to come up with an effective way to channel that input in a helpful and logically disciplined manor that won’t fill up endless threads and PM boxes. I’m sure the sharp minds of this forum can come up with something……….

I believe Axiom really needs to 100% nail down the amplifier issues on their subwoofers before pushing power amplifiers.

I haven't really kept up with the detailed problems with the subwoofers myself but all one needs to do is search through the boards and see the numerous topics relating to subwoofer issues which might give prospective buyers second thoughts about purchasing a multi or two channel Axiom amplifier ... especially whenever it's running over $4,000.

To be quite honest and as much I really like Axiom and trust their product I would have second thoughts myself about purchasing an amp from them for this reason.

Just my .02

I think we need someone who is granted the ability to maintain a sticky topic which will act as a bucket for product ideas. The ideas that gain the most support would be added to this list of wants, and once in a while we would revisit the list in order to prune and refine what's there. These ideas could be for new products altogether or simply revisions to existing products. Axiom doesn't have to necessarily act on the suggestions, but at least it would all be there, collected and organized for them to see. Semi-regular polls on the items in the list would show which ideas people are still rooting for over time.

I would tend to agree with you here. I'm not big on internet speaker brand electronics (amps,processors,receivers). From a customer perspective from the outside looking in, the history surrounding the reliability and quality control problems of internet brand electronics is stagerring across the board. It does not appeal to me at all. To me it seems the ID model brands try to hit price points with their electronics which are unnatainable (based on the MSRP compared to other competition) in order to compete with some of the bigger and more reliable brands and therefore shortcuts are taken (parts, quality control, r&d, slim budgets). Even Axiom as of late I have noticed a fair number subwoofer problems in the amp section on the EP500 and EP800.

Knowing Axiom's commitment to service, you can bet it is a top priority for them.

I purchased an SVS for mostly these kind of reasons. They are an ID company as well but overall the product is very solid, I have driven mine quite hard and have no issues. The amp is made in Canada and the driver/unit itself is all USA, and it's about the same price as an EP350 (talking PB12-NSD here) and performs better. I don't know where Axiom is sourcing the amps, or if they are doing them themselves, but they should be able to compete in price/performance/reliability based on what I have seen with SVS/HSU.

They build all of their amps themselves.

Suggestion No. 1: Do Not Make Amplifiers unless that is your love and calling and you have something unique or the ability to make a better amplifier for less money than those for whom amps are their calling.

Suggestion No. 2: Do Not Try to Compete with on-line discount electronics vendors.

Suggestion No. 3: Stick to speakers.

Suggestion No. 4:

Suggestion No. 5: Improve the sound quality of the already wonderful Axiom speakers.

Yes, we all love our Axiom speakers. For me, the reasons are that Axiom speakers give great audio quality for a good price. My favorite Axiom speakers for 2 channel music (2.1) are the M3Tis. These are excellent speakers, at a very good price, but they are not perfect. It has its detractors on this site who correctly point out that these speakers have a 'hump' in their frequency response at about 90-120HZ and a 'hole' at about 8HZ.

So, here is the plot from SoundStage.com:



Response curve is an average of five measurements:
on-axis, 15 degrees left and right off-axis,
15 degrees up and down off-axis

Now, here is the plot for the Usher Be-718 (Little Dancer)



Here is the plot for the MB Quart Vera VS 1F Loudspeaker:



Anyway, I responded to the Axiom survey and here are some of my thoughts which I thought I would share:

Lower the price of the current line of speakers.
Come out with a premium line with high quality cross-over components.

Come out with a new line of speakers which target the icons in each segment

mini monitor, book shelf speakers (5", 6.5" and 8" driver) like the Usher above, the Harbeths, Spendor SA1, Focal;

This is not to say that the Axiom speakers are not better than many very expensive speakers. Axioms are better than many, but not all.

Why not beat the really great speakers at Axiom price levels? It seems to me that Axiom is the outfit which just might be able to accomplish this.

Just a thought or two.

How will we know when they've beaten all of the really great speakers? When there are more like you on the board instead of a bunch of sycophants?

Well, it's all in the listening, not the applause from true believers.

_____________________________________________________________

My Axiom made speakers: M2is, M3Tis, M22Tis, M50Tis, QS8s, VP150, Michaura M55s, Michaura M66s, Michaura M665s, Merak MC6H, Merak MC634. I may have had more that I forgot about.

Mmm, applesauce.

with Latkes.

It's interesting that one of your favorite Axiom speakers is older and has the hump and dip as your showed. The newer M80's are much flatter, and just as flat (yet more efficient) as the other speakers you posted. I'm wondering if the hump and dip of the older model sounded better to your ears because of where the hump and dip was in the spectrum?

Give that man a cigar. I expect the bass hump is there to give the M3 more apparent bass, and it does that very well.

I have no doubt the amp issues on subs has caused a lot of concern and effort at Axiom. Keeping the design in house gives you a lot of control, but also has its downside. Axiom now has to worry both about design and production, and production is a whole other can of worms. The amount of resources car manufacturers throw as manufacturing process and quality is mind boggling, but they have a lot of volume to spread the cost over.

The M3s are so tube friendly. M80s are hard to schlepp to listening sessions. I like book shelf speakers.

However, Mr. Sroode, your point is well taken. That is why I hope our friends at Axiom come out with a revised M3 that is again a world beater. The rest of the audio world has caught up.

I agree with Fred that Axiom clearly devoted substantial resources to its subwoofer project ... and since resources are finite, perhaps resources which could have been used to upgrade Axiom's current line of speakers.

The M22v2s are ruler flat over the same or larger range than the M3s. Axiom has the speaker you describe, but you don't like it as much as your older M3s, which, ya know, is fine.

Axiom's focus, from what I've learned in speaking to Ian et al, is on getting as flat a response as possible not just on-axis, but off-axis.

As to the subwoofer issues, clearly there have been issues with the EP800, which have been/are being addressed. I don't think it's taken away from the lineup--just ask people who have working EP800s! I have yet to see a post from any of them after receiving revised, working amps, that is negative about the product!

A1400 owners? Also appear to be a pretty happy crowd.

I could only wish... I was saving Axiom dollars to get one of those in a year or two, but I will be very happy with my new center M80!

Are there any regulars on this board that own the A1400-2?

Mel has either the A1400-2 or the 8, I can't remember.

Yeah I have heard rumblings of a few owning the 8, never much noise about the 2. Its sort of like the M50 of speakers - not much talk about them.

Also Eric has the "8", not sure who has the "2".

It would be intersting to hear an M3 will a fully designed crossover where the speaker is not using its own mechanical roll-off. I am sure the speaker would sound different. But I bet that is a reason why you like the M3 so much.

Have you tried the M2 v2? That has a flat response curve more in line with the Usher & Quart. BTW, how much do those speakers cost?

The rumblings about the "8" comes from early units and some complains because of ground-loops in homes that suddenly shows up because of the introduction of separates and not using XLF connections.
Jakeman has both the -8 and the -2.

I have the 8 and I had a problem with it shortly after I got it but have had no problems since. I only use it now to power my front M80's. As long as I don't let Jay touch it I should be fine.
Sorry Jay it just blurted out!

Mel

You've got an A1400-8 and a Denon 7 channel amp?

Someones paying attention here. Guilty as charged.
But it's 10 channels

Mel

I wouldn't mind adding one to my system, but not at the current price. Someone recently mentioned that $1500 would make it much more tempting, and I agree. I would probably bite at that price. I know, I have an A1400-8, so why would I need an A1400-2? I guess just because I'll probably end up with a processor that does 9.1 next, which means my poor A1400-8 will be just a little short. Then I could have the A1400-2 for the M80s and the A1400-8 would handle the rest. I wonder how many dedicated circuits I'll go for in my HT. Deafness is my future. Either that or a whole lot of wasted potential. Yeah, that sounds more like me.

OK I'll say it.
No I better not.

Mel

Dr. House

I agree. I think the sound quality I like so much about the M3 is because the driver mechanically rolls off and Axiom uses no cross over.

The Reference 3a de capo speakers use the same pure signal path solution but sound much better than the M3s. Nevertheless, I think Axiom is on the right path with the M3, just needs something, dunno what - new cabinet design, new cap/resistor array for the tweeter, new tweeter, dunno.

Ola HTnut, I had a pair of M2es, just gave them away (not because I did not like them, but because I did). They are very much like the M22s, just less.

Kcarlie, I have M22s. I know they are ruler flat. To my ears, there is something missing, and I am not just speaking about bass. The sound quality of the M22s is also 'flat.'

Thanks also for assuring us about the status of problems with Axiom subwoofers and amplifiers. Everything is fine, nothing to look at here, just move along.

It took a long while to "re-train" my ears to get used to the flat response. It's hard to find speakers that can truly output a flat response and still be affordable. Growing up, I tended to bump the bass and treble way too much. I've owned a variety of speakers over the last couple of decades (Advent, Cerwin Vega, Infinity, Polk, Boston Acoustics, even Bose), and I can say I'm extremely impressed with the reproduction of the Axioms. If I need to adjust the sound, I prefer to do it in the preamplification stage, but I do really don't do that anymore either. Now, when I listen to music that is "equalized" (usually in pubs or restaurants), it just doesn't sound natural to my ears.

till my Axioms, with a bunch in between Advent seemed to reproduce the Jazz I liked the bset. But that was many years ago.. who knows ?

OK, so, here's the question:

Do all speakers with flat response sound the same?

Let's refine the vopros, if I have a speaker which only reproduces the frequency range of 5000Hz to 10,000Hz, but produces a ruler flat response will it sound identical to another speaker of another manufacturer which produces a flat response...



Do we think that all the variables which contribute to a speaker's sound quality are measured by a frequency response curve?

In the same room, with the same placement, and the same equipment, and the same efficiency, I see no reason why they should not sound the same.

I don't think any speakers with flat response are actually flat enough in exactly the same way to sound the same. "Ruler flat" is coming up regarding speaker frequency responses, but I've never seen ruler-flat graphs in regards to speakers.

I disagree. Speaker measurements are typically taken by a microphone placed one meter from the baffle. A microphone can only measure the sound that hits its diaphragm. At one meter away, pretty much all that sound is direct. At a typical listening distance, the sound of a speaker, to a human ear, is the sum of all the auditory information reaching your ear. This includes all direct and reflected (from the floor, ceiling, walls, furniture, etc) sound information.

Unless you're in an anechoic chamber, I'd say two speakers that have virtually identical response curves -- even on-axis and off-axis measurements -- might easily have distinguishable differences.

If the speakers are identical at 1m to a microphone, and have identical off axis responses, curves, and efficiencies, they should sound exactly the same in the same room with the same equipment and same placement.

The thing is, you're taking a narrow snapshot of a speaker's total dispersion pattern when you sample at, say, only 0°, 30°, and 60° -- all in the same horizontal plane.

Yes, but we both agreed to identical off axis, right?

I have to side with Steve on this one. Of course, it's a rather academic question, since no speaker truly has absolutely flat response.

Maybe this would fix the problem.

Yes, and no two speakers are truly identical in efficiency and off axis response. But given 2x6's comment, if there were 2 manufacturers with truly identical speakers in every measurement, I would expect them to sound the same.

Read my sig.

If every measurement you took on two separate speakers was identical then I, too, would say they'd sound identical. I admit to taking a very critical academic stance and saying that the standard on-off axis measurements taken in one plane at 1 meter are likely not enough to rule out other possible differences.

would like to have a 3 way option, with the tweeter, mid and sub in the same cabinet.. they do not offer a 3 way speaker cabinet, however they do have the speakers, they just need to build a cabinet for them... I have M60's right now, and would be more than willing to upgrade to a 3 way design......

OK, so, we have speaker A with a ruler flat frequency response, but speaker A only reproduces frequencies between 5000Hz and 10000Hz; we have speaker B with a ruler flat frequency response, but speaker B reproduces frequencies between 20Hz and 20000Hz. The FR curve is indistinguishable. Do they sound the same?

Of course not.

The point is that the objective measurements we rely on to compare speaker performance measure only a limited set of variables.

Something about a microphone and a brain don't make 2 ears.

I think you mean a power tower, right? Your M60s are 3 way already--tweeter, mid, dual woofers. Power towers can be problematic, not just because of the limited volume of a tower cabinet as opposed to a dedicated subwoofer, but also because of placement issues. I wouldn't expect to see anything quite like this out of Axiom.

But they aren't indistinguishable. The portion between 5-10KHz may be, but that doesn't make the entire curve indistinguishable. That's like having one curve appear smoother than another...but only because the "smoother" curve uses significantly larger dB increments in the Y axis.

Right you are, HTnut, so ... between 20Hz and 10,000Hz and between 10,000 Hz and 20,000Hz, Speaker A generates a pure tone (B flat) with a perfectly flat frequency response.

The two graphs are identical - ruler flat in the words of Kcarlie.

Thanks HT pointing that out.

For those who have not seen a truly flat speaker measurement, check out some of the B&W 800/801/802 series speakers. I remember one that was +- .5db from 20Hz to 20KHz. You are, of course, in a slightly different price range.

I was hoping that Soundstage had one of these measured do I could grab it quick, but they don't.

the m60's are not a true 3 way, the heve a tweeter and mid's. there is no sub, so they do not cover the full sound spectrum..


wilsons


or the B&W 800's

Splitting hairs a bit. Just because the 6.5" drivers aren't big doesn't mean they're covering the same frequencies as the 5.25" drivers. It's a 3 way design.

He should have listed the prices too

Wouldn't they be four way if a sub is incorporated into the cabinet? Subs are for non-directional LFE, not 'regular' base - as I understand it anyway.

3 way design yes, but does not cover the full sound spectrum. that was more of my point. They don't play that low.

If you listen to a wilson or a B&W 800, the speakers are amazing.. now granted the Wilsons start at around 10-15k$ a pair, and i think the 800's are 20ishk$ a pair..

I am just saying I wish axiom would make something that would be of a similar design as the speakers i posted above, even if they were 3k$ a pair I would probably buy them. At that price point they would still be 1/2 of what a used pair of wilson's would cost....

Now granted this would be a product that would not be aimed at axioms primary demographic, so i don't know that they would build a product like this or not.....

now prices are listed wild

The M60's are a true 3-way design.

You may not consider them as "full range" since they don't produce frequencies below about 40Hz, but that doesn't change the fact that the network topology has two crossover points going to three, distinct sets of drivers.

I like your thinking dakkon. I hope there will be at least one person on the People's Council to the Ministry of Speakers who urges Axiom to raise its game and who does more than just gush how great they are and don't change you're just fine...

I get the distinct impression that you feel that anyone who happens to like a company or it's products is automatically a one-note fanboy.

As usual, I find your attitude insulting and annoying.

Believe it or not, it's possible to be satisfied with a company's products and market position without feeling the need to tell them they have to offer something different for me to accept them.

And Dakkon, a speaker can be a 3-way design without it covering the sub frequencies. "Full-Range" and "3-Way Design" are not the same thing. A speaker can be none of those, one of those, or both of those.

Color me Tired and Cranky ....

You know even for a tired old cranky guy Mark I still think you are alright ... obviously you are neck deep in home modifications so I'll wait to ask you about that later.

Cheers bud!

I like Axioms. I buy them for myself and my friends. I don't know how many Axiom speakers you've had, but I suspect I have even more. I vote with my wallet and I think I'm entitled to express my opinions. Sorry if you're insulted by my opinions and forgive me if I laugh a bit as I type this.

In my opinion, Axiom must raise its game or its prospects are as exciting as this board, which is to say, not very. Now, before you say "if you don't like it just leave," I've been a member since 2002. This is where I post my audio interests.

Now, if you think it is insulting to Axiom when I say they are falling behind by standing still, or that they are misdirecting their energies by bringing out amplifiers and subwoofers, that's your problem.

I'd like to see Axiom come out with world-beaters, the audio counterpart of "killer apps." To me, Axiom is about great speakers at a decent price. I'd like to see them make better speakers at a great price. That's just me. Why does my opinion bother you?

If you think I'm calling you a fan boy when I have never directed a post to you or mentioned you in a post, you probably are a fan boy. Live with it.

Let a thousand flowers bloom.

At least we're not talking about cartoons so no one is likely to try to burn my house down.

Whooa whoa whoa.
Back up the bus here.
You have a telephone way up there? That isn't a sat phone?
Cool.
When did that happen?

Ya i had to stay pretty quiet for a long time about the new subwoofer lineup,...and the new amps,...and the new finishes.
I tell ya, they drove a real hard bargain to buy our silence. They bought my pregnant wife lunch and that was it. We were onboard the silence train!!

Amie knew how to close the deal; you ALWAYS talk to the wife!

Yes, and as long as we're not on the subject, I'd like to see Chess on the People's Council to the Ministry of Speakers. Chess is knowledgeable and objective. He has also conducted critical reviews and comparisons of various speakers. He is not a fan boy and therefore his opinion would be valuable.

When I say "critical" I do not mean negative, I mean probing and analytical.

Of course, it's easy for me to volunteer someone else, but what the heck.

When you test a product in a lab, that's one thing.
When it gets released to the masses in the hundreds, thousands, that is another entirely.
Sheer numbers will find the faults fast and furious.
I tend to avoid purchasing newly minted electronics, more so for those touting new technology or ideas, until they've been through at least one revision.

Axiom will get things right BUT the customers have to be partly patient and put up with the flaws that may exist until fixes are found or you hear many complaints and few kudos once the issues are resolved. Some believe that paying x dollars for anything should equate to buying a "perfectly functioning, without flaws" unit EVERY time.
If that happened, no one would own a car.
Period.

I think i just fell on my ass.

Yep, i checked, i definitely read that, and then just fell on my ass.

I have confidence in the four lads (what no lasses?) in this regard, although i appreciate the vote of...something?

Sorry, my ass is still smarting from the stunned fall. Maybe it's because no one ever described me as "probing" before...well maybe except for that one ex-g/f in univ...but that's another story.

Chess............probing..................hmmmmmmmm

Ya i had the same odd mental image in MY head Wid.

Now let everyone else have it!

I want a 103" plasma for $2000...heck I'm even willing to go up to $3000 if push comes to shove. I think Panasonic is dropping the ball on this one.

Yes, Chess, we may have dueling signatures, and different ideas about tubes and solid state amps, objectivity and subjectivity, reductionism and what to you must seem like audio mysticism, but I've followed your posts over the years - years. You may think you know it all, despite that, you're very intelligent and know what you're talking about. Oh, yes, and intellectually honest.

Cheers.

Perhaps they've raised their game already and we just can't tell you yet.

I'm not insulted by your opinions so much as I'm insulted by your insults. Even in this sentence where you're apologizing, you're saying you're laughing. The way you phrase things in an attempt to sound superior is really off-putting. I do appreciate your varied experiences with audio, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're eager to be insulted yourself and then laugh it off when people are insulted by you.

OK, so Mark is insulted by my opinions [Axiom could do better], you, on the other hand, are not insulted by my opinion but you are insulted by the fact that I laughed at the idea that someone would be insulted by my opinon. That struck you as an insult. It just struck me as funny. I dunno why.

Can't we all just get along?

Most of us can.

Tell me before I buy something else.

I've been emailing Axiom about picking up another pair of M3s but am conflicted. I love the speakers, but wish they were better. If I got a pair of M3s and then Axiom came out with an upgraded version, I'd sure be sad.

So, Kommissar of speakers, what's new?

I'd say if you want something M3-like, get the M3s. I can't say for certain, but I believe Axiom's model for improving existing products doesn't track closely with yours.

How about a good pair of headphones?

B&W now makes them... http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=4571

Would you buy Axiom headphones? I think I would.

I agree with 2x6 on one point... I also think Axiom's speakers are looking a little outdated. While the custom finishes go a long way towards improving on the cosmetics, they're still just kind of boring box speakers. I love my M80's for their SQ - absolutely - but they're not exactly going to set the world on fire with their looks.

I fully understand that the point is sublime SQ. That's one reason our beloved Axiom speakers are inexpensive. But isn't there room for a "premium" line? I think there is. I'd love it if Axiom made a higher-end line of speakers. A 'halo' product, as it were. Something with a little more dramatic flair to them. They don't have to be Dynaudio Evidence Masters, or B&W 800 Series Diamonds, but something a little more like Dynaudio's Contour series, or Paradigm Reference Studio 100's. Speakers with a little more 'oomph'.

Put it another way... I've been on this Axiom scene now since 2003. Nearly seven years now. Axiom has gone from the "Ti" version to the "V2"'s, added the on-wall's, brought out the EP500+800, and the amps. Those aren't trivial things and I respect Axiom for what they've done. But nothing has changed with their core M-series speakers. They're looking a little tired, IMHO.

Good post. I would be interested in something like Axiom headphones. I have thought about this on a few occasions. It would be a good excuse for Ian to get some new testing equipment for his factory like a HATS system (Head and Torso Simulator) and other goodies.

I think it would be hard to compete in the headphone space. Even if Axiom can nail the sound, comfort seems to be hit or miss even from the people who focus solely on headphones. But yeah, I'd still try a pair of Axiom headphones out.

Agreed on the headphone front. There's such a thing as spreading yourself too thin.

It is interesting you mention the newer Paradigm Studio Series in your comments. I have dealt with a local store in the area for several years, that has sold the entire Paradigm line since pretty much their inception as a company and when this newer line was introduced the manager(who is a friend of mine) along with a few other long time employees commented, quite unanimously, that despite the fancier aesthetics and cabinetry AND hefty price increase, they had actually "cheapened" their drivers and the sound, overall, in their opinion, wasn't as good as the originals. They were tending to recommend other lines in their offerings(Totem, Focus Audio etc.)that represented better sound and value to their customers.

I have had several Paradigms in the past including a few of the Studio series but, not having heard the newer line, I have no way of comparing.

Perhaps there is another agenda here but, I guess, given the above comments from people who have sold the product for years, it would seem it's not always just about building fancier and more "modern looking" speakers.

If Paradigm is cheapening-out on their speakers, it's all the more reason that Axiom might do well with a premium line.

Funny you should mention the Studio's Casey. I was looking at measurements of the V5 studio 10 and 60 over at soundstage and thought they looked rougher than the previous version.

Salk Sound, on the other hand, seems to be offering value at a price with their Songtower and Veracity speakers.

Peter. What should Axiom do to spruce up the line? They started offering the Vasallo line a few years ago as a premium option.

I still think that a premium bookshelf would be a way to test the waters on something higher end. Something that plays lower than the M3 or M22 and comes in a veneer finish as standard. I don't know that this fits in with what Axiom does as a company though.

In this discussion, with all my "babbling", I neglected to mention that a couple of weeks ago, through the "trade-up" program, I took delivery of a pair of M80s in the "high-gloss" piano black.

For me, I believe unless I spent several thousand dollars more, I couldn't get a better looking, better sounding pair of speakers than these two.

Nice work, PeterC.

Regrettably, I have to agree about the aesthetics. Whether we like it or not, a certain amount of perceived value is "how does it look?". In particular, I think the ongoing use of convex, woven dustcaps in the M series looks funny. So many manufacturers are offering concave, metal dustcaps (like in the Axiom subs).

Auto speakers seem like a very logical next step, too.

I want Full Metal Brackets to be less expensive.

If Axiom DOES start researching a premium line, I hope it will be very well differentiated from the mainstram offerings in all respects (including form-factor). I don't think a piano-gloss M80 with upgraded capacitors is useful.

Many have commented over the years that a 3-way monitor might fill a void in the lineup. A bookshelf larger and more capable than the M22.

I'd like to see Axiom indulge their recently-acquired former Mirage designer (whose name I regrettably cannot remember - so sorry). Perhaps pursue omnipolar, open baffle or other similar designs.

Honestly, I think Axiom should stick to their core business and strengths. And there have been MANY advancements over the last several years. In addition to those already mentioned, the Audiobytes, Outdoor speakers, M0, in-walls, etc. When many of us were first seduced by Axiom 6-7 years ago, all they had was the Ti series (including the long-lost M40) and subs (including the flagship EP350). I don't think Axiom gets enough credit for bringing totally new products to market on their terms.

Well said Tom, I highly agree.

It's not like Axiom rests on it's laurels concerning their M series either. The cabinets haven't changed for some time but that is because it's shaped the way it is for a reason(standing wave cancellation)....is it as pretty or sexy as a curved cabinet which are 'de rigueur'? not really, but in optional finishes, it can look very beautiful in it's own right. Changing the proven cabinet design to a curved or ellipse would be nice, but not necessarily a wise business decision. The innards have been tweaked over the years, as have the tweeters to my knowledge(I've not been here too long) and I'm sure Axiom continues to test some new ideas on their existing series. Whether those ideas make it to production, depends on what the results of testing would entail.

It'll be interesting to see what new ideas Andrew brings to the table, having come from a different design approach over at Mirage(API). As noted, you don't want to spread your company too thin...it's like fighting a war on too many fronts. Do what you do best, and make it the best you can but sometimes a new idea or approach is refreshing.

Axiom, could do a test run of say 50-100 prs of "higher end" bookshelf speakers of a design unigue to their regular lineup, in say, Vassalo HG Rosewood as a trial to test this market. Having a pre-order will reduce costs, I'm not talking AV123 here!!, and since the majority of us drool over the HG Rosewood, I think they'd be an easy sell with that finish.

I don't have a problem with the aesthetics of Axiom's speakers. I think the wood veneer finishes are beautiful. I love the way the white aluminum with black bullseye contrast with the wood finishes.

However, my concern is that the drivers are screwed into MDF. I am not an engineer, however, the problem seems obvious. When I talk about upgrading, I am not suggesting trading sound quality for looks, I want more sound quality.

I don't know whether a front baffle like the Thiels would make a difference as to edge effects, or whether a time corrected slope to the speaker cabinet and x-over would improve sound quality, or whether an independent "basket" or frame for the drivers would improve SQ, but if they do, I hope Axiom figures a way to improve the sound quality of their already wonderful speakers without a substantial price increase.

Innovation in the service of improvement of the price/benefit balance would be consistent with how I see Axiom.

I know pmb, now an insider, has made it clear that Axiom's ideas for future product do not follow my ideas. OK. I still love my Axiom speakers.

For music, I wish a piano would sound like a piano. I was helping someone with their computer last week, and they played something on the baby grand they were trying to sell. Beautiful. I can't say my M22's sound anywhere near what a real piano sounds like. I haven't listened to enough speakers to know if there are any out there that will.

This one is easy for me. In my quest for all of my speakers to sound as similar as possible, I wish Axiom would make a line of surrounds that could be +/- 3db down to at least 60Hz. Many other manufacturers do it (Klipsch RS-42 goes a bit lower, and costs about the same as the QS8s). I just would love to be able to cross my entire system over at 60Hz and not have to worry about additional mid-bass loading on my subs as I switch from stereo, to surround, to 7 channel if I choose.

Hey Steve, why not just throw some M60's back there?

This was a pretty common request a few years ago. I wonder why it died down.

Hah! I should have also said I love the way the QS8s sound now (except that I want them to go a bit lower). I would like my "wish" speakers to retain the quadpolar technology, and the wide dispersion pattern they have now... Just go lower!

Perhaps switching to the 6.5" woofer would go a fair bit lower, I wonder if Ian's tried that one? (probably)

2xspds, you've said nothing wrong. Some people tend to complain when others make complete sense, they simply cannot comprehend forward thinking. And if I’ve insulted anybody that’s just the way it is, as there’s no law in Canada that says you’re feelings are protected. Colour me Canadian!

I would think you'd run into issues with cabinet volume, but I'm really not sure.

Very possible, Ken.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rs-42-specifications/

About the same dimensions and a little less weight... It's possible to build.

Assuming they're telling the truth with those specs, yeah.

I find it highly amusing that their $4000 surround speaker the P-27s is quoted as only being down to 72Hz +/- 3 db. With much bigger woofers and cabinet.

I'm not arguing that I should have bought that speaker Ken (because I had the choice and didn't), and I'm not saying that I trust their published responses more or less than Axioms. But, that is what they published, and it seems to get good reviews. This is my wish list, and I want an Axiom surround like the QS8 that can go down to at least 60Hz. I'd like to see Axiom try to do this, because I do believe in the company and trust their response curves.

I didn't mean to give the impression I was arguing with you about that. I'm just doing my usual skeptical bit. Tone is so difficult with text.

Also, I'll try to remember to bring this up at our next meeting. Not sure that I'll be able to tell you anything about what Axiom said (we do have an NDA), but I'll mention it to them.

Cool, thx!

Steve, you're gonna need a bigger box, and it's probably going to have to be vented instead of sealed.

Very cool idea, though. I like it a lot.

If this is the clearinghouse, did we already list the reconjiggered 3-way center channel somewhere?

No troll chow here, by golly.

Just a public service note, if I (at least) don't directly comment on telling Axiom about something, it could mean a number of things:

1) I already know there's something in the works, but we can't talk about it.
2) We've talked about it, and Axiom ain't gonna do it.
3) I'm not particularly interested in it. Maybe one of the other council members is. Maybe Axiom is. An example: I'm not particularly interested in Axiom headphones, but it sounds like Peter might be.
4) I didn't read the thread very carefully and/or I didn't see the suggestion.
5) Some other reason I can't think of right now.

Of course, this may be completely unnecessary if Peter Bell or one of the other Axiom staffers is reading this thread.

Tom - Geeze, it's better than hanging a M60 on the wall... I mean, the M60 is still so small compared to the M80, but I may need two nails to hang it on a wall. Maybe some of that putty-tape you see them hanging stockings over the mantle at Christmas-time on TV would work?

Ken - Oh, I understand NDAs in my business, there is no need to explain at all. This would just be my suggestion as a fan, an engineer, and an audiophile.

I also agree Axiom should stick to doing what it’s best at and not try to be all things audio. I was actually a little miffed when Axiom announced it’s amps thinking here we go like so many other companies they do something well and try to spin it to other areas. Then it dawned on me that they already did amps for their subwoofers so it seemed like a logical extension.

One thing that might be nice to see are partnerships with other companies. Someone mentioned Denon at one point. Another base they might cover in line with their present product line might be room treatments. Either partnering with someone else or developing their own.

(commenting on bold part)

Is the whole purpose of the customer council to speak on behalf of Axiom customers and/or consumers in general than just in the self-interest of the individuals that sit on the council or a little of both?

I would hope the latters is not case and that the customer council will pass on all ideas whether they agree with them or not. In a sense acting as an official representative and in the best interest of the consumer and their POV. IMO if there is strong heated debate between the producer (Axiom) and the Customer Council (speaking on behalf of all Axiom customers) and each party/group acting in their own best interest (having critical debates), this can spark progress, future growth and innovation otherwise I hope it does not end up being counter-productive.

To lighten things up a bit...

I want a Ninja crossover!

I kid, I kid!

To ascertain what Axiom may put out or want to put out as 'new ideas' in the future will really come from the corporate direction that Axiom is moving or wants to move as a company.
That is to say, if Axiom has an interest in becoming the next Sony, the new ideas they may consider could be anything under the electronics category, starting with any X or Y.
If Axiom has an interest to stay close to what they started with, speakers, then one must assume their search for 'new ideas' will involve a venture in that specific regard.

In brief, what new ideas a customer council may be looking for has to be tied to what it is Axiom wants to be as a company.
I'm hoping the council asked that question of Ian and co. It is kind of an important piece of information before one can go looking for a ideas or solutions.

Mr. Sroode, if your subwoofer(s) are doing their job your surrounds should sound like they are producing the full frequency range.

I'm sure for the right price, Jay would part with his...

This is a very old topic of conversation. It popped up when people realized that their 90Hz min. surrounds didn't play as low as the recommended 80Hz crossover fearing a huge 'loss' in sound quality (over a whopping 10-15Hz range limited to the surround channels only).

Why would any sound engineer mix a LFE specifically for the surrounds when no surround speaker (aside from a full range speaker which is typically equally limited) can play nearly that low a frequency?
Tracks are mixed knowing a sub would be required for this sound range.

With a non-directional playback of low frequencies, any LFE from the subwoofer should 'sound' like it is coming from a rear/side surround as mixed with cues higher than the LFE.

Making a surround speaker that plays a lower frequency is a moot point. It is a mental roadblock that makes a listener 'believe' without a full range surround they are somehow missing audio information.

Excellent points chesseroo.

Our “purpose” is to provide Axiom feedback and input regarding their products, potential future products, and all things they do in order for them to improve the customer experience and the company in general. This includes currently owners (and not just those who frequent this forum, as we the few, not the many), potential buyers and those who no longer own Axiom products. Every meeting we’ve had, we discuss what we would PERSONNALY like to see, and we also discuss what we believe YOU ALL, and all those others out there in the real world would like.

While I have opinions and preferences, as does everyone else, I do my best to look at things from all perspectives and present those views. There have been many times when I’ve represented a view point I do not share, but I know that many others do.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am looking for ways to get everyone’s feedback to Axiom in a productive manner. I’ve seen a couple suggestions for doing that (and took note), but not a lot of collaboration on that point.

Thanks for your input. A sticky thread that was mentioned before is a great idea. A thread were the council can continously update ideas (only those individuals and Axiom allowed to post in the thread) about product and service in a nice brief condensed form. No discussion in it (this is what a thread like this is for), just bullet point form - organized, acting as a great point of reference for Axiom, the council as well as Axiom customers. Another good area to put any updates as well. It can almost act as a public itinerary of what the council is interested in discussing (plan on discussing). Transparency of ideas is always good especially when dealing with the customer aspect of this. Just my opinion.

I knew that one would cause trouble. But seriously, I'm not going to pass on that one member of the forum wanted neon green woofers in their M60s, or something like that. That's where I was aimed with that one.

If 50% of the community says they want neon green woofers, well, that'll get passed on. I just might not comment that I'm going to pass it on, since I think it's ridiculous. Hope that clarifies a bit.

Ken, I want sparkly streamers to shoot out of my woofers in time with the music! Please make this happen!!??

No.

Yeah, I’d leave the “emo” looking speakers to Emotiva.

How disappointing. ... neon

I like this idea. What companies are coming to mind for people? Since I'd like to see amp prices come down as well as improve reliability of the sub amps, it might be worth looking into a partnership with an amp manufacturer. Axiom could trade their amp tech (while still receiving royalties) in exchange, perhaps, for manufacturing and expertise from the amp maker. I don't know what amp company could complement them in this way, and then it would take same careful calculation to figure out if it's worth sharing the IP with someone else, but if Axiom could get some comparable IP out of it and potentially reduce costs, it might be worth looking into. Of course, that kind of partnership might be like having a roommate. It's probably really hard to find a good match. Right now, Axiom is what Ian has made it into. It could be tough bringing other people into the equation, redefining what Axiom is.

Ben & Gerry's? Speakers that really schmeck!

Reminds me of what was pretty much my only Mescaline trip....

I was at a friends house and though I was sitting on the edge of his bed in his room, my perspective was as if I was floating up in the corner near the ceiling, looking at the room as though through a fisheye lens.

Steely Dan's Aja album was playing over and over, and the music was coming out of the speakers with colors...different shades for different frequencies and at different speeds for intensity. A bit like watching the "visualizations" in Windows Media Player.

If Axiom could safely duplicate that experience, I'd buy a set of speakers every day.


Every.


Freakin'.


Day.


Aja is still one of my favorite albums.

"Ajaaaaaaa...when all your dime dancing is through...."

How's this going to work out for a derailment?

The most obvious one would be "Bash Audio/Indigo" for their expertise on subwoofer amplifiers, and they are located in the GTA as far as I know, which would be very convenient for Axiom.

I saw a gargoyle flying around the flag pole at Camp Horno. Turn out to be an owl. My buddy at UW Madison had never done it before and tripped out at a Phish concert at Alpine Valley. I lost track of him and next thing I see he’s trying to climb over a barricade to get to the stage between sets. Best I could get out of him was that he thought he was Trey and need to get back to the stage to get the band playing again. Just under 7 years and I’m in the clear, not that I’m counting.

BTW how’s it “pretty much . . . ?”

We're not here to speak on your behalf -- after all, we were not elected. There are four of us, however, and all of our interests and opinions are not in perfect alignment. If Ken and I aren't particularly interested in Axiom headphones, we're not the right people to push for them. That being said, we do have Axiom's ear in a more direct way than the rest of the board, and you should know that any ideas that rise to the top here will be passed up the chain.

Keep in mind, there is nothing stopping any of you from passionately arguing for your wants. Axiom staffers do read the boards, too.

Isn't that what I just did in my post above?

I think Axiom used to use Bash amps. There must be a reason they decided to go their own way.

I know it's not going to happen, and I understand the reasons why, but.........

It would be nice to know if a new line of "upmarket" speakers were going to be considered before I make a significant purchase for my new home theatre system in my as of yet unpurchased/built house with my girlfriend who will in all probability end up being my wife as I complete the final stages of rebulding my life at the advanced age of 60+.

If nothing else I hope to get recognition for posting one of the most convoluted sentences ever.

Which leads one to wonder... How often do those staffers pick themselves up off the floor laughing or find themselves walking away wondering what the heck happened to that thread?

Back on the idea train.

Has Axiom done any investigation into a high gloss black vinyl? Something along the lines of the High Gloss Cherry, but you know, black?

They used to have it, back before the VaSSallos. There were a lot more HG vinyl. I suspect (but don't know anything) that they just kept the two that actually sold. The HG vinyl finishes were pretty expensive compared to the regular upgrade vinyl finishes.

But they have to be less than the actual high gloss wood finishes, right? I love piano black, but can't see paying for a real wood veneer that's painted so no grain shows.

I think for piano black they would simply paint the MDF as a real wood veneer really isn't necessary, but the labour costs are the same to get that glossy finish.

Neither can I... but that's what a piano is, innit?

They were definitely less than the real wood finishes.

I love that look too. I have a set of Opus 2’s in piano black and gold plated trim. I haven’t dusted them off in two years. I keep having visions of scratching them as I get near them with any sort of polishing cloth….

Piano Black is incredibly labor intensive. It takes numerous coats of clear to give it depth. Each coat is polished prior to the next coat. Not sure how many coats go on Axiom’s, but it usually takes no less than ten.

Relating to service development--tweaking the automatic email system relating to purchases to not only notify the individual of their purchase order upon completion and when the product is shipping but to also have an automatic processing system in between that updates order status and notify's the invidual when their order has been processed/charged and a "broad" approximation when the order will ship. For standard orders something like "within 5 business days" or for the factory outlet purchases (3-4 weeks). It gives the customer the ability to know their order is being taken care of.

Example.

1st email upon purchase - order details, order#, shipping verification, payment verifcation price etc.

2nd email - success that the payment is processed and broad ETA given.

3rd - shipping notification

On a whole other topic does anyone else feel that the main storefront page that you are initially brought to can feel overwhelming and "cluttered" the way the information is presented?

There's also a lot of drying time involved when you're dealing with 10-12 coats of clear as well.

Try the disposable Swiffer floor dusting clothes. I'll hit up my (large collection of piano black) electronic gear, and then put the cloth on the Swiffer mop and do the floors (don't get order backward).

That's pretty much what I figured, even if it isn't on a veneer, it is still a lot of work. I don't need a true hand finish, would just like some black gloss. The base of my TV stand, is a high gloss plastic coat over MDF. I love the way it looks.

Relative to Axiom staff reactions to the forum, I was enjoying this delicious beer from Lagunitas the other day.



I like the idea of Axiom throwing a bit of resource at technology. I know that a good part of what makes Axiom special is the personalized, beyond-the-call service they provide. HOWEVER, there is also anecdotal evidence that lots of people like to communicate via email instead of phone, and that some of those people have at times not felt well-served.

I do with the store-front and other pages were a bit more elegant.

I have to agree with this general motion.
I've found the Axiom pages to be cluttered looking.
Too many links, too much info on the opening page, trying to do too much at once.
Simplify.
And this is from a scientist who actually LIKES lots of info.

I agree. Strongly. I'd reduce the amount of text and links on the main page and use a large, central feature box with content that rotates regularly.

I happen to like all of the links. It makes it easier to navigate. I HATE the web sites that keep you guessing as to where everything is located. I don't waste my time with those.

There's a middle ground between spartan and link-heavy.

I agree with Brian that I like the heavily linked homepage because it makes things easier for me to get to, but if I were new and just “window shopping” I imagine a less cluttered more visually oriented web site would be more user friendly.

I really think Axiom would benefit from more feedback from either very new or non-members both audiophile and non-audiophile in something some things since most of us are already sold on their products.

Time to bump this one to the top...

I also wish Axiom would consider a wireless sub option.

If i felt i could really trust the quality and responsiveness of it, i would love to have all wireless speakers.
But then i would only need more wall plugs or lots of batteries.

The whole wireless thing should be very intriguing to them because the techonology is not mature and there is so much potential within the audiophile audio realm. There is no doubt consumer trends and preferences are shifting in this direction. Definitely an area to think about heavily investing and research and development.

From our conversations with Ian et al, what Chess said has a lot to do with it. Historically, the technology simply hasn't been there to do it reliably.

With Axiom jumping on the WAF trend with every single one of their new speaker models in recent years I am suprised they have not come to market with in-ceiling speakers yet.

With all due respect, I find that very hard to believe. Other companies do it, and we are talking about a very low frequency response. WiFi transmits at 2.4 GHz, and even with multiple sampling and error rejection, I find it very hard to believe that frequencies between 20 and 100 Hz cannot be transmitted reliably and wirelessly in the same room in the year 2010.

Can't use stuff like this: http://www.amazon.com/Cables-Unlimited-S...70397765&sr=8-3 ?

What Ian has mentionned in the past is the technolgy to build wireless M3s that could be used with a built-in batteries and chargers. They could never get the audio reliable enough to meet their standards of performance.

That shouldn't make you stop trying to develop the product or the technology. That is what r & d is all about.

Again, lower frequencies are easier to transmit. Dr. Hsu did this in his flagship subs.

Well, there's something to be said about not banging your own head against the wall and letting other companies do the R&D initially...

I seriously doubt Axiom has unlimited resources, and if this technology just isn't quite there yet they could easily decide to put their R&D money into something that is more mature or more "in demand" by their customers.

Good to know SRoode, thanks for that information. I will have to read up on that. I am pretty sure another direct competitor, Aperion Audio is doing stuff with wireless subwoofers as well.

Edit: Based on this link it looks like they are trying to gauge consumer preferences on wireless audio products and looking
to expand upon their product line.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63590

Those Aperion Home Audio Links seem cool, but they're definitely more money than I'd spend on them.

Let's just say that Axiom does a lot of research, all the time, in a lot of areas.

Have they researched what woman would make a good match for me? Do they have to custom-build one?

Yes, but you'll still have to choose between vinyl or veneer. Oh, and what color cloth do you want stretched over her drivers?
I personally like the vinyl, so in the dark I can tell that I'm not groping the headboard.

They have. They failed.

There's a growing consensus on the futility.

The last time a conscensus grew that big, it was called "Godzilla" and put on screen.

As long as I can make whole cities suffer along with me!

That's the spirit!

Do you think Axiom is going to release a version of the QS speakers that will work with the Power Bracket mounting system? I know a lot of people complain (that may be a strong word) about wall-mounting the QS speakers. It seems logical for them to offer a new version to take care of that criticism.

That's an interesting idea. I haven't seen the final version of the power bracket (they made some changes for the bigger on-walls), but I think that might work pretty well. Wouldn't surprise me, certainly.

That would be a problem for folks (like me) who mount the Q's with the two different full metal brackets.

I'm not saying the new versions should replace the existing models. They would be considered specifically on-wall versions.

I gotcha.... Make it an option you can pick when you buy them. That's a good idea.

Ah, true. Hadn't thought about that. This way does give significantly more flexibility.

That makes perfect sense, for those of us that flush mount the QS's the power bracket would make it much easier and for those that need/want the FMB, the regular connections could be used. Great idea CV.

I want one.

One of the things I'd like to see is a speaker system for mains and especially the center that has a much wider dispersion. Do horns, or electrostatics, or whatever, have a wider dispersion than what Axiom is currently using?

Perhaps a curved center in a WTWTW design, where the center is thicker than the ends. This may place the sweet spot to slightly off center on both sides in front of the tweeters, but it would also expand the available sweet spot listening area.

From what Ian has said on our conference calls, the titanium dome tweeters offer the widest dispersion of anything they've tried--and they've tried all of them. I don't know that they've tried curved systems, but off-axis response is a big deal for them.

Isn't this the sort of issue that B & W purports to have addressed, somewhat, with their models that have the tweeter loaded in a pivoting, ceramic, gourd-like housing atop the cabinet. A friend complains that visitors think they're karaoke machines and they try to remove the "microphones" resting atop the cabinets.

I've noticed a big difference with my VP100 on-in wall I have mounted under my tv from straight on to about 30 degree off. I've adjusted for this by increasing the center by 1db so that I can hear voices more clearly at the 30 degree off angle, but then it's just a little too loud straight on.

I didn’t want to start a separate thread for this but I wanted to comment on something I hope Axiom doesn’t ever make. An Audio-Video Processor.

No kidding. History tells me these products are best left to be developed by the big boys.

Well, the Audioholics preview of the new on-walls indicates that the Power Bracket would need to be modified:

I hate to admit it, but I agree that Axiom isn't the company to do this. However, I do still think the way they're being made needs to be reconsidered. I would love it if the architecture was a bit more open and there were more software options. It would probably have to be an industry-wide change to make it worthwhile, but how long are they really going to go on releasing new models every year instead of just allowing people to drop in faster chips and perhaps some new I/O cards and download new software? I feel like I should be able to download and use Trinnov or Audyssey on whatever processor I have. I'm sure there are a lot of potential pitfalls with this idea, but it should be possible, right?

Anything is possible for the right price, but are you willing to pay that price?

Big pre/pros like Lexicon's are built using replaceable cards. Ain't cheap!

I know one of the Integras used to have card slots, but I don't know if they took real advantage of it. But yeah, that's why it would have to become the industry standard. If only one or two makers use it, it's just a feature they feel they can bump up the price over.

I think the prices would be elevated anyway as the cards would be the only thing required when upgrading etc. So it would have a high initial cost and then the cards would be a large fraction of that initial cost.

I just read a review on the new Integra 80.1 pre-pro but I don't remember any mention of user upgradeability...

Hmm. MSRP of $2800.

That seals the deal, I'm buying one for everybody.

Yeahh!!

Woo hoo!

I knew you were rich when I realized that the Nissan Maxim you drive is just the Nissan body over a Maserati 3200GT chassis and engine. You sneaky bastard.

I'm thinking Axiom may need to revisit the A1400-8 and perhaps make it the A1400-9. 9 channels makes more sense with the newer audio processing, and it would mate with their A1400-2 for those needing the full 11 channels of amplification. Of course, I still think the 2-channel version should be a bit cheaper for those needing both amps to fully power their system. They would obviously need a new housing to fit another channel, but anyway, I think this change would make sense.

I think their base amps are pairs, that's why there's 8 instead of an odd number.

I'm holding my breath for them to build a mono-block.

Oh, good point on the even numbering.

A mono-block would be nice.

Any updates on the M80 center channel?

To add to that discussion, besides a mono-block, more options would be nice. It would be nice to see something modular so you could add channels as you needed them. I'm not sure how this would affect the dynamic assignment of power. I suppose it would have to see how many amps were installed in order to intelligently route all potential power. But yeah, it would be nice to be able to buy a channel at a time. It would be a lot easier pill to swallow for some people. That is, if you could split the price of the A1400-8 on a per-channel basis. Obviously, the two channels of the A1400-2 are priced a lot higher. If a single channel was marked up even further, it would make the channel-at-a-time thing very difficult to buy into.

In any case, I want at least 11 channels of amplification total, and I want more potential power than a single outlet could provide, so I would want at least two separate multi-channel amplifiers. In order to stick with Axiom, to get the most bang for the buck, it would have to be two A1400-8 amplifiers. That's a lot of money. What's a realistic target to shoot for price-wise to get, let's say, 12 channels of amplification in two units (2800 potential watts between the two?)? Would a $5k cap allow this possibility and still get Axiom decent profit, do you think? Does this seem like a reasonable goal for Axiom?

You're crazed.

I concur.

Oh yeah. Crazed for sure.

Hey, these padded walls are an acoustical treatment.

Padded walls? How's your roomie doing?

Anybody?

I have an Anthem PVA 5, 5 channel amp. The amp is modular and can be had in PVA 2 channel, 5 channel or 7 channel configuation. Same case, what differs is the number of amps inside.

I doubt pmb has ever listened to Glenn Beck. I think the Beck is brilliant. pmb, though quick to put down those whose opinions differ, not so much.

He's brilliant in that he knows how to make a lot of money with his mouth in today's political climate. I prefer Chris Hedges for content, though.

I know I'm the only one interested in the amp discussion right now, but I'll keep talking to myself. Ha ha. I'm thinking that if there was an A1400-4 at the current price of the A1400-2, I'd even be tempted to go for that. Ideally, the A1400-8 would be about $3000 and the A1400-4 would be about $2000. A1400-2 at $1500? I know, I know, the prices they have are prices they arrived at knowing a lot more than I do. I'm simply saying what I'd like to see personally. But yeah, an A1400-4 would be the perfect companion for an A1400-8 for anyone doing 11 channel setups. There'd still be that extra amp channel for people doing dual centers. So yeah, the A1400-4 would do the mains and center(s) and the A1400-8 would take care of the surrounds, rear surrounds, heights, and wides. There, that's my case for an A1400-4.

I agree Charles, I have always said the A1400-2 should be ~$1500. I know Ian has mentioned that the A1400 could be specially ordered with any number of channels as long as it was a multiple of 2 channels up to 8, no more room in the case for more.

Well, that's cool about being able to get a custom 4-channel amp, but I know the price wouldn't be where I'd want it. I'll still have to look into it when I actually get to the point of needing more amplification.

This isn't an idea for a new product, but I simply wanted to say I'd like to see more professional reviews of Axiom products. It's obviously not for my own sake, since I'm very freely giving them my money. I simply feel they could improve their image and presence by getting their products into more reviewers' hands.

For me, their most compelling recent products have been their A1400 amps and their EP800 subwoofer. The A1400s have had very few reviews, and the EP800 has only had that one review in Israel that I know of. I can understand not sending out review samples of the EP800 with the initial issues, but with the latest version of the amp, it would be nice to see it getting some love around the internet. When you search for either product online, you find forum threads with people asking where to find reviews, and then discussion sort of dies off.

Maybe Axiom is selling what they feel is enough and aren't feeling pressure to try for more exposure. I must admit that I'm hoping for greater volumes to reduce the prices of their amps, though.

So yeah, more reviews. When reviews are scarce, it seems like the company might fear potential criticisms. I don't think Axiom has much to fear in this regard, and any shortcomings that reviews may illuminate can only be good for Axiom in the long run, right?

You will probably see Audioholics review the EP800 sometime in the future. They have done extensive reviews on pretty much every single Axiom product up to this point with measurements!

The more I look at the Outlaw 2200, the more I think Axiom should have a look at building a similar product. Now with the new centre coming out, there's going to be more people looking for some extra juice across the front three channels, whether they go with 3 separates, or maybe a 2 channel for the L/R and a single for the centre.

Anyone know of some cost effective 3 channel amps? I know there's the XPA-3, any others?

CV, I'm sure that Axiom would love to have more exposure and more reviews. It is one of the things that drives their business.

Unfortunately, getting face time with the folks that make decisions on what is reviewed and then convincing them that you have something new, shiny and fashionable/trendy can be very difficult.

Marketing departments can expend a lot of time and energy on such things, sometimes with disappointing results.

On Audioholics and sub-woofer reviews, I've been quite disappointed with their sub reviews as of late. With the low cost and ease of use of measurement tools like REW, they could do a much better job of quantifying and verifying the claims of various manufacturers.

I hadn't really considered that aspect of it. I suppose I assumed the technology and specs in both the Axiom amps and EP800 spoke for themselves. I don't see how people would NOT be interested in getting more in-depth with them. Anyway, as a consumer, it would strike me as odd if a company's products only ever got reviewed by a select few sources, whatever the reasoning behind it. But yeah, I don't envy the marketing department. It has to be stressful trying to get your company's products into the hands of people who will be responsible and even-handed in their assessment, especially in an industry that does so much business based on consumer ignorance.

Not to mention magazine reviewers, who are more likely to review products from their advertisers. To the best of my knowledge, Sound & Vision is the only magazine in which Axiom advertises. And that's probably because of Alan's ties.

Does Alan wear one of those mind controlling psychadelic ties with swirly patterns on it?

"Look into my ties....you are getting....slee...pee..."

I dunno. But I'll stalk him and let you know!

Just don't look directly into his tie!

One speaker configuration you don't see in Axiom's line up, is a smaller three-way tower using a single 6 1/2" wfr, 5 1/4" mid, and 1" twtr. Perhaps it's too close to the M60 to be considered though.

That has come up a number of times over the years. My recollection is that they've tested just about every conceivable configuration; that one didn't prove "better" than the M22. And it would certainly be more costly to build.

T-10 until the request for the Q12s...

Oh, yeah, a floorstanding surround speaker. Thanks for reminding us.

OK, that would be a new twist on the theme... actually I haven't seen the QS12 talk for quite awhile; not since multichannel audio went out of vogue.

I still like the idea of headphones and a studio monitor (active and passive).

Another issue. Reviewers only ever get exited about something brand new. It's rare they go back to a product that has been out for a couple of years.

I was just thinking OPPO would be a good candidate for making pre-pros. If they stuck with pre-pros, they could sidestep the amplifier issues that a lot of companies seem to have. I think they would be able to offer a lot of value in this area. I wouldn't mind if Axiom went in on it with OPPO, though, to create a line of pre-pros AND receivers. If Axiom's amplifier issues are history, it would be pretty cool to see their technology in receiver form. With OPPO handling the other side, I think it could be a compelling line of products.

This thread should be a sticky.

In-cabinet VP180.

Architectural EP600/800.

For those dedicated theatre rooms where you can build around the speakers.

No shit, the other night i looked for this thread for an hour, and couldn't find it....... thanks for bumping it Tom.

Thanks, Dakkon.

I'd like to see what Axiom could do with a soundbar type of thing. Aperion released an interesting option that appears to use another company as a partner.

I just want to see a pair of towers with a woofer or woffers in them.......

An electrical guitar speaker cabinet. 4 x 12s! Match it with my dream Mesa Mark V head.

Thiel Goes to Online Sales with Amazon.com (Audioholics)

I did notice they had some products listed on Amazon.com a little while ago, but I forgot to mention it. One thing I mentioned in Axiom's customer survey was how great it would be to get the Amazon.com Prime shipping on their speakers. Maybe they could do like Thiel and simply offer a limited selection of their products on Amazon.com with the Prime shipping. Even if it was just the smaller speakers, of course in the stock finishes, that would be something. Of course, ideally I'd be able to get it all, but I would still love being able to get bookshelf or QS speakers in 2 days, and it couldn't hurt Axiom's sales to have increased visibility on Amazon.com.

The idea of partnerships comes up often enough. I was thinking it would be cool if Axiom got together with an A/V furniture company (or not necessarily A/V-specific, since that might drive up the price) to offer matching TV stands/equipment racks. There should be a way to match the speakers to the equipment shelving without it being TOO MUCH of whatever specific finish you've chosen, and it would also allow for the speakers to be a big part of the design of the shelving. They would need to be somewhat modular considering all of the different speaker possibilities. It would be nice to see TV stands that allow for vertical centers, or the in-cabinet speakers, right out of the gate, no modifications needed. I prefer an open design as opposed to the closed cabinet, personally, but it would still be neat to see. But yeah, right now I have an M22 as my center, and it has to sit out in front of my stand, and my stand isn't wide enough to hold all of my gear without having some of it sit behind the M22. If I get a VP180, I'm going to have to make a different stand to have out in front of my TV stand. Of course, I'll be getting rid of the TV stand when I move my system to the basement, anyway, but for now I keep thinking of how much better it could be with a stand and shelving designed around my speakers.

I'm sure it would just end up being too expensive. Still, something to dream about.

I know this is old now, but I've been trying to think of how it would work in my system.

Summit Wireless Technology Delivers Uncompromised Wireless HD Audio (Audioholics)

I like what it offers, but I don't really know how you'd integrate it with your receiver or pre-pro. I would think you'd want it to be part of that main component as opposed to an add-on. Also, powering your speakers becomes an issue. Not an issue if you're only doing the subwoofers with this technology, but if you're doing your whole system, you'd probably want a monoblock with each speaker. I would love to see Axiom offer their amp as a monoblock, but again, the cost would be an issue. Of course, you could probably have more powerful amps for your mains and use more modest ones for the surrounds, which might make it more realistic.

One part of the write-up on Summit stood out:



Wouldn't that be nice?

If Chris's pre-pro project turns out well, I think Axiom should get him on board to go a step further and include this wireless technology (even if it's not going to 192 kHz), offer monoblock options that I can afford (since this is all about me), and perhaps hire someone to make a nice GUI for it. Of course, a more standard wired version would be an appropriate product sibling, but I like the automatic calibration aspects of this solution. This time alignment/phase adjustment is what I want more than anything. I wouldn't feel I was missing out on full-blown Audyssey, though I'm still curious about Dynamic EQ. Picking and choosing out of what Audyssey does, though, I'd want what this system does, leaving the frequency response alone.

What am I not thinking of? It seems like I had more to say about this.

By the way, do I post in this thread too much? I feel like I'm spouting a bunch of nonsense and you're all just letting me instead of pointing out how ridiculous my ideas are. Ha ha. Seriously, feel free to ground me.

After looking at some of the products Andrew Welker designed for Mirage I would say use his design philosophies and engineering expertise in bringing to market a high end 2 channel loudspeaker that is in the same price class as the A1400-8 amp. The A1400-2 amp would be then the perfect amp to pair with said loudspeaker. I have always found it strange that Axioms highest priced product is an amp that is significantly more expensive than their flagship speakers.

This idea also does not compete with their current line of products which I think makes this even more attractive.

No, no no, you've got that backwards, Axiom should simply be lowering the price of the A1400-2 to match the cost effectiveness of the speaker line up, something along the range of $500-1000.

Whew, someone who's on OUR side.

Couldn't agree more!

Charles, Dynamic EQ works off of the frequency response adjustments that Audyssey makes as a result of its room measurements. So, Dynamic EQ can't work if the frequency response is "left alone", if that's what you meant.

No, I realize that.

In somewhat the same vein, I wonder if Axiom could be looking into changing from MDF to another material for any of their offerings. I remember Alan explaining the desirable Q of MDF (is that right?), and it may indeed be the most cost-effective way to achieve their quality of sound, but I've always been curious what they might do with another cabinet material.

Ascend Acoustics is using Bamboo which is a break from traditional MDF. It is more expensive than MDF. Here is what they have to say about it.

Exclusive V-LAM™ Cabinet Construction

In order to greatly reduce cabinet resonance and energy loss common with MDF enclosures, the Sierra-1 cabinet is made from vertically oriented laminated bamboo. There are over 200 individual sheets of ¼" thick bamboo, each laminated to another and arranged such that each panel is vertical forming a baffle that is 3/4" thick. This cabinet has extremely low resonance... Warning, perform knuckle-rap test at your own risk!

The inside walls are lined with top-grade damping material and each joint is well braced. We custom tooled a high-flow flared port tube which is flush mounted into the rear of the cabinet. All drivers are flush mounted to reduce baffle reflections and the front baffle vertical edges have a beautiful radius which aids in the reduction of diffraction.



V-LAM™
Construction
Bamboo is an environmentally friendly renewable resource. Ecologically, the harvesting of bamboo does not affect the world's dwindling timber resources. Technically considered a grass, bamboo has the ability to grow to maturity in only 3-6 years. The intricate root system remains unharmed upon harvesting and allows for sustainable future growth.

Bamboo is incredibly strong and considered one of the most durable hardwoods. It has a tensile strength that is stronger than steel and the vertical orientation of the panels we use take full advantage of this.

The bamboo we use is completely moisture resistant. MDF will swell when exposed to moisture and this is often the cause for the cracking and peeling of the various finishes applied to MDF loudspeakers over a period of time.

All joints are well braced.

All drivers are flush mounted to reduce reflections.

Bamboo isn't quite as green as they would like us to believe.... Third world countries are clear cutting natural growth to grow it,or just cultivating so much bamboo, it kills the natural growth based on demand and depeleting the soils with repeated harvests.

Not a call either way ... just some facts I came by from our in house "wood guru" . This guy travels all over the world, and locally selecting veneers and sources.

3rd world or 1st world, when humans find something that is profitable they will exploit it to whatever degree and costs necessary.

I deal with "Green" all the time. GREENGUARD certified, FSC, you name it.

Corps don't want it for the right reasons.. they want it for the bragging rights ... on a big job they will tear down a couple forests to "get the right look" , but it has to be FSC .. so much waste .. or trucking the "right wood/Veneer" across country because it is certified and they get their LEED credits, Great thought out the gate, but will actually hurt in the long (short) run.

Eventually this will all be a good thing. 20 years?

Charles - MDF is incredibly dense and stable. It’s basically just fine wood dust and glue compressed. It doesn’t have terrific structural rigidity though, which is why internal bracing is needed if the individual pieces are longer than about 16”. One area where Axiom might be able to improve upon is going with thicker stock, like 1” or 1.25”. I suspect it isn’t necessary though and the extra width will just make things heavier and more expensive to ship. One advantage bamboo might have over MDF is weight. I’m pretty sure that by volume, MDF is heavier. If I were to build a speaker cabinet, my first choice would be MDF and cost has nothing to do with that choice. Another advantage MDF has over other sheet goods is that it is about as close to perfectly flat as you can get. This makes it great for laminate, veneer or vinyl. It is also very easy to work with if you use carbide tooling. Miserably dusty though. It takes a great dust collection system to make the work area tolerable. The dust gets everywhere and is horrid to breath.

BTW – keep the ideas coming. I’m keeping track of them, even if no one else is.

I'd be curious to see what Axiom could do with a soundbar.

As for cabinet materials I've always liked the look of nOrh's marble, both real and synthetic.

As soon as you get away from MDF you add a lot of cost to a procution speaker.

I used MDF for the sliding pull out shelves in our A/V equipment closet with the mind that they were going to be only temporary because the closet was built with the dimensions for a Middle Atlantic rack system that I was eventually going to install. After five years the 'temporary' MDF shelves are holding up extremely well, they haven't bowed or sagged at all which surprised me because I truly didn't expect them to last this long before being replaced. I thought for sure they would have sagged with the weight of the equipment, at least a little ... but they haven't so far.

Those speakers look wild Wayne.

I don't really wish Axiom could make something, technically speaking I do. Wish the trade up program could be back!

MDF is very stable compared to most other materials.

Bamboo when compressed with a lot of glue makes for a very dense material. Lift a piece of 3/4 bamboo flooring at Home Cheapo, and you'll see how dense and heavy it is...probably make a good speaker cabinet material for those reasons.

In theory, the benefits of the structural integrity of bamboo should do a better job at controlling cabinet ressonance over MDF. However, it comes at a greater cost of being more expensive and more difficult to work with. Just the simple task of drilling holes can become problematic/more difficult when assembling the loudspeaker. Economics is simply the reason you don't see it too often used.

PSB uses aluminum fronts and backs on some of their speakers. I believe I've seen some others use complete aluminum cabinets as well, probably more of a "lifestyle" setup like a condo HT or similar.

I have never understood using glass enclosures. Glass sounds like a bad idea all around. They might look nice in a "lifestyle" setup though.

Some people are only concerned about the looks and not the sound, I guess.

Sir, you have the Fran Drescher of speakers.

I wish axiom would make a wall mountable M80 style speaker.

It would have about twice the depth of the on-wall series.

Edit: I know they have the in-cabinet, but not everyone wants to put them, nor can put them in the wall.

OK, just finished reading all 317,672 posts in this thread and confirmed nobody has mentioned outriggers for the tower speakers yet. So, without further ado, I wish Axiom would make optional outrigger brackets with bolts to go into M60 or M80 foot/spike holes and tapped holes on the end that accept the feet/spikes shipped with the speaker.

I was going to do something with 1x2s but have been shamed by the beautiful outriggers others have built. I want to be able to buy something just as nice without doing any actual work myself

Now that is a great idea bridgman!

I'm definitely down for some outriggers, and I still like the idea of making them a little more involved than simply providing extra stability. As in, I'd like a rotating platform for the speaker to sit on that you can lock at whatever angle you want. It would be a convenient and accurate way to play with toe-in.

Sort of like a Roomba HD with an M80 on top ?

I'm trying to picture that. It reminds me of some of those Wallice & Grommit shorts.

CV could put all of his EP800s on train tracks and have some cool chase scenes, like in "The Wrong Trousers" ...

They could incorporate the Incra mitre gauge for exact locking at the desired angle.

Personally, I'd like to see speaker outriggers at a much lower price than they're available online. I don't know that Axiom is the one to supply that, though.

Outriggers are an excellent idea. Pricewise, there are so many different routes that Axiom could take depending on the design. It could be as straight forward as a larger wooden base/plaque that attaches to the bottom of the speaker but extends the feet out, a couple of fancy CNC'ed metallic bar type, or glass/marble/granite....

I suspect the price reflects the sales volume. I could see someone offering them at a lower cost only as a service to their customer base.

Too bad we don't know anybody with woodworking skills who has already solved this problem in New Hampshire.

I'm not really a fan of wood though. Smoked glass, or blued steel would get me to purchase.

Tom, you know more than anyone on this board that I don't have much time for woodworking!

(I started making Tom a set....oh...probably 16 months ago and haven't finished yet. For that fact, my own outriggers never got stained / installed and my M60s are sitting flat on the hardwood floor, totally "feetless")

I tease because we're friends, Mark.

Well, if I EVER get my basement workshop put back together.....!

Well, I had that idea a little while ago about making a boombox out of a pair of M3s, a Squeezebox Touch, and a moderately powered amp like this Dayton DTA-100. It might be nice to see a company build an adjustable and attractive frame for such a contraption. Axiom, any chance you'd want to make something to accommodate your line of bookshelf speakers, perhaps allowing people to slide the speakers out a bit, as well as swivel them? The lower part of the center of the unit could house an amp. It could be an amp Axiom builds into the unit, or it could simply be left open to allow for whatever amp the user wants to place there, with some sort of adjustable locking mechanism to hold it in place and centered. The top of the unit would be an adjustable cradle for whatever portable music player/media streamer the user has. The back would have a small power strip to plug in whatever player they're using as well as the amp, with perhaps 1 or 2 extra outlets for flexibility. I'm not sure I have any bright ideas about making it aesthetically appealing, but I'm sure it could be done. Some thoughtful cable management provisions would likely need to be included. Would anyone else besides me be interested in something like this? Am I just weird?

This has sparked some design interest on my part... My oldest goes off to college next year and I've been toying with the idea of a pair of M3's, a small amp and iPod dock. Then the idea of the amp and iPod dock being housed in an M3 body hit me. Sort of a college audio care package, if you will. Volume knob and power button on the bottom portion and a finished recess for the dock. Complete with magnetic grill, either for just the recessed area or the entire front. That way all 3 housing would match. The DTA-100 would do or even the APA-150 (Looks amazing like an Emotive offering of the past), but the DTA-100 could be panel mounted more easily.

Just thinking outloud...

Scott

That sounds like a great idea.

Hmm, where do I start?

In media res?

Hmm. How much time do we have?

As long as you need. I'm charging you by the hour.

Yes, that's the standard arrangem ... hey, wait.

Come on, it's therapeutic for you to be able to tell someone everything that's wrong with them.

Like my wife says, "Nothing like a little downward social comparison to help you get through the day ..."

I don't think I have enough Gray Poupon for all of my hot dogs. What should I do?

Mix your extra Black Poupon and White Poupon at about a 60-40 ratio.

Alternatively, You could get a jar of Yellow Poupon and mix it with a jar of Chrominance-Desaturate Poupon.

There's no limit to the Poupon Possibilities if you have the 64-color set.

Nice!

Caution - re-railing.

I know what you guys mean about the micro-amp and speakers thing, but I've given that quest up for a couple reasons. First, that's not a "portable" solution, and anybody in college who is listening to not-portable music is probably streaming it through the computer (which makes the iPod integration redundant). Second, there are good values to be had on powered speakers, which is a more elegant (and probably less costly) approach than 3 boxes.

Mark won't shut up about how good his Mackies sound, and I have a friend with some Behringer powered speakers that are really nice.

So, I think that unless you have the speakers or the amp already, it just doesn't make sense.

/buzzkill

Thanks, killjoy!

JK

I didn't say it was a good idea, just an idea. So, maybe some sort of multi-media input might work...

Actually, I can't imagine anything of reasonable value in a dorm setting anyway. Not sure how danmagician7 pulled it off without his stuff walking...


Scott

Which powered speakers are you looking at? Elegant, maybe, but flexibility is nice, too.

Well, a friend has the Behringer MS-20. They sound really pretty good nearfield at reasonable volumes. They also have 2 digital inputs (of which I think you can only use one at a time) and 2 analog inputs. They seem to be available at Amazon for about $100. The MS40's aren't much more but have a larger woofer.

Mark has some Mackies that he likes. I don't know which ones. He seems to like them and - gawd help me - I trust my brother's judgment. M-Audio also makes some inexpensive ones, but I don't really know anything about them. I am using an M-Audio adapter between my computer and BFD and it works like a charm.

The Behringer 2030A was reviewed at audioholics and did very well.

I have Alesis M1 Actives, that I like a whole lot too.

Can't forget about the KRK Rokit series.

http://www.krksys.com/product_rokit.php

These perform very well under 3rd party testing. Definitely a consideration when looking for affordable, quality near-field monitors.

I have Mackie 824s. They're great monitors, but about $1300/pr.

And then there's these

MK was on my list of HT speakers, but their appearance was not was I was looking for. When I was researching HT equipment, I remember that MK was the speaker of choice for Skywalker Ranch.

Scott

Nice write off on those.

It's funny that you say that....

After I posted that last night, I thought: "Did I really send that much on them?". So, just before signing out, I checked the price on M22s ($470/pair) and Outlaw 2200s ($700/pair) and thought "yeah, I could've justified that purchase!"

How well do you think QS speakers would work for a boombox? It's not like you're ever sitting directly in front of the boombox to get the great stereo imaging. Just wondering if there would be any advantage to using QS-type speakers instead. Not that I'm ready to build one yet. Still in the talking stage.

Maybe use VP150s standing vertically, right? Also, is anyone considering using VP150s like this as wide channels? Seems like it could be a good use for them.

I'm wondering if one of the "higher-end" speakers that Axiom is working on is a powered speaker? Do you think? I've only been thinking of cabinet materials and design, but I could see Axiom offering some powered towers with modified single A1400 channels built in.

I'm picturing an amp/processor/tesla coil that sends an amplified signal wirelessly to any number of speakers in the room.

... as it zaps its way through your head and microwaves your brain.... (I always worry about all of this wireless stuff.)

Cool tongue. I just noticed that.

... Passive sub unit. This isn't too far out of reality. There was something in the test lab at Axiom that looked like the bottom woofer and port of an M80, partially seen at the bottom left corner of this pic.




I was actually thinking more along the lines of 2 woofers side be side and 2 vortex ports, and a cross over for 60-80 Hz and below - maybe on a footprint of an EP800 (trapezoid), but obviously much shorter. The point being to add just a little bottom end to something like M2's without going to a powered sub.

I tried this when I got my T2's and used the bass module from my old Cambridge Soundworks "sub" / sat system and it really warmed things up. It didn't pass WAF at home, but I'm thinking about this for my office at work. I don't want to boom boom the neighboring offices.

Hi Scott or Sherlock Holmes !?

You are right it is a passive subwoofer !

I just want everyone to know that the photo above is staged and, yes, I am smelling a cable.




In case anyone was wondering.





Now back to the thread.

What brought on this, ahem, cable smelling attack?

Chess told me to look like I was doing something important.

The cables weren't going to smell themselves.

So did it pass the sniff test?

Debbie called me "nosy" To which I protested that as a research scientist and that I was curious, not nosy. It's how I get my job done. Most things don't work, but some do...

So how does that passive sub sound??? I'd be happy to beta test in a non-lab setting...

How about an integrated tube amp(s) that is voiced to perfectly match the Axiom speakers? Even a tube/ss hybrid like the Anthem Integrated 225. Maybe a partnership with Anthem since Sonic Frontiers is also a Canadian company? With their Anthem line they also have the same attitude as Axiom of providing equipment that delivers performance far beyond the price point. We know that some amps and speakers achieve a perfect synergy that makes them perform together far beyond how they perform with other components. Having an integrated amp with that synergy with Axiom speakers designed in would be a tremendous value add.

Nice to see that Axiom, through these forums, is onboard the "Clue Train" http://www.cluetrain.com/book/

I don't want to be a buzzkill or anything, and you may well be right. But I don't know about asserting this as Accepted Truth without some science.

I think this might be more true for tube amps as each one does have a slightly different tone, but SS amps are pretty much the same at least any of the ones I have tested.

My Dad has been running an older Yamaha preamp and amp combo with a set of Infinity floor standers. It was a great sounding, if a little bass heavy, system. The Yamaha he was running was powerful and clean. A few weeks ago he bought some Klipsch Forte II's and a McIntosh preamp and amp. He had the speakers a few days before the amp so he tried them with the Yamaha and didn't like the sound at all. He said it was unpleasant and kind of harsh. When he hooked up the McIntosh he loved it with the Klipsch. He said he's done. Everything but the McIntosh and Forte II's is going on CL. Two solid state amps with similar power output and completely different sounds through the same speakers because the Yamaha was designed to run as cleanly as possible while the McIntosh was designed to sound like the McIntosh tube amps.

Yes, there are those SS amps that are designed with a tube sound but they are not the norm.

I'm thinking of going ahead with the boombox thingy. Would you go for normal M3s or Algonquins? Have the Algonquins had the v3 enhancements except for the magnet grilles?

I'm sure they have, just for manufacturing savings, if nothing else.

Have I been sleeping? I still don't see the option on the site, but a user on Blu-ray.com says they have the new power brackets for the QS8s in this post.

I remember the contest we had for naming the bracket last year.

Those were for the M0 speakers. These are for the QS speakers.

Oh yeah.

Those new brackets have to be BRAND NEW, the web page info doesn't say anything other than the usual 'T' bracket etc.

Post with pictures of the new bracket

Can't see 'em if you're not a member.

Ahh, didn't know that. Still, I thought everyone was a member.

Those of us with good imaginations don't need no stinkin' membership.

Just because I have a good imagination doesn't mean I don't like Cam posting pictures of his caregivers.

Think of those two things as mutually beneficial?

Wait. Let me go find my jacket.

I'm thinking the calibration microphones that come with receivers and what not should be something you wear on your head like headphones. That seems like the easiest way to move the microphone around to each listening position.

How many times do I need to say "Duct Tape".