Where does everyone stand on this one. Seems of late , to be a real push by a few select people to convince the populus that this is indeed the gospel.Again and again richard clark's name surfaces in these arguments. I wouldn't really care but these pundits will jump on almost any thread with the word amp in it.

Some people believe in santa, i dont but hey i still celebrate christmas. I happen to beleive not all amps are created equal and i own an external. Recievers are built to a price point,corners have to be cut somewhere.

Nothing good can come of this. Let's talk about God, instead.

Obama 2012!

Eating SPIDERS?

When I'm not derailing threads (stay thisty, my friends), I usually sit on the sidelines on big audio debates such as this because there's always more informed people to defer to. I'm happy to pop some corn and read what the elders have to say.

That said, I will offer that I did not notice a significant difference between my Outlaw Audio 990/7125 preamp/amp combo, which I bought for $2000 in 2006 and the Onkyo 370 receiver that I bought for around $500 last year.

It's impossible for all amps to "sound the same" or every amp sounding identical. Amps are very complex and they can be different from one another. No two amps will measure the same (amp design goes beyond power rates and providing a flat frequency response). Amps are not as simple as other components or easy to quantify in the chain than things like speaker wire/interconnects which just work off a few basic electric principles.

I think we can all agree that speakers are at the top of the chain when it comes to components that can make the most difference.

Good point. That's where to focus the audio dollar to get the best return on investment.

i value your opinion, no matter which way you lean.Personally i may have heard difference myself,or maybe i just wanted to.
I know these threads are inflammatory,not what im after here. Lets just stay on track , were not here ot change minds just to get insight. I doubt i could hear a difference under blind test situation. Now if i came home and someone had changed out my amp without my knowledge i suspect i could tell, maybe, i think possibly. lol

pioneer spent a lot of money haveing its sc57's sound tailored by an independant lab. Not sure how this was done,or done by dsp but it sounded more like by design to me.

Absolutely,the amp is last thing i would go for with regards to changeing how my system sounds. Once settled on my speaker of choice though somethings gotta go. lol

Until recently, i was of the opinion that all solid state amps sounded the same "to me" while the following is true

I will say, i don't think that the human ear can distinguish between to amp designs that are similar...

With that being said, since my most recent addition the new addition is a Krell FPB300cx,
http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=373836&page=1
I was able to hear a difference between this amp and my previous amp. The amp that the new one is currently replacing is in the photo with the pair of amps.. Both amps are Class A amps, and manufactured by the same company, they also have the exact same gain... The new one was manufactured 10 years after the old one, so it is a newer design....But, i dont think there have been many ground breaking changes in Class A amp design in the last 10 years.

Below is what i said after i had some time to listen to my M60's with the new amps in the system, my opinions have not changed since originally writing the below statements.

Well, hey, everybody knows tube amps sound "warm" and class D amps sound "harsh", right?

I guess I fall along the line that says all things being equal, more power is better than less, and less distortion is better than more.

So, if you've got clean power that is not working too hard to provide the peak volume level you desire, then I'm betting you'd have a hard time differentiating one amp from another.

I think it's fun to hear stories from people who are getting joy from their systems.

And "measures" is not the same as "sounds". Two ears and a brain are not the same thing as a microphone or oscilloscope.

I'll go ahead and assert that not all amps are *perceived* the same. Some bring more joy to people than others. Good for them!

That's really the best was to see things. Acknowledge that your way of seeing things is not the only way, and that there are many paths to happiness and fulfillment.

And to bring this thread full circle, one can say the same thing about politics and religion, too.

Amen, and AMEN! It is incredibly liberating when you can let go of "I can't be right unless you are wrong." Separating "good" and "bad" fromo "like" and "dislike" is pretty rewarding also.

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

dont go corrupting the thread with the richard clark bs. Unless you have taken a double blind with him and can show me the video i dont really care to hear about it. If you believe that and want to use an "I" statement as in " I took the test and I feel all apms are------. Putting someone on the spot like that doesnt prove a thing. Take a word like "Pudding" say it 20 or 30 times, it starts to sound stupid,right. well abx testing is the same thing .

And there we are with the my way or the highway. Why don't we bring cables and transports into this, too?

I think the word pudding sounds stupid the first time I say it, but I guarantee that if you give me two different speakers, I can identify one vs. the other, far better than chance, in a level matched, ABX test. Amps on the other hand, I really doubt it.

thats was not a my way or highway at all. It just seems that Richard Clark is the only fall back that the (all amps sound the same camp) have. This thiking that Richard Clark is right and everyone else on the planet is stupid gets my feathers ruffled. (plus my boss has me pissied off right now too )

I would be the last person to tell someone what to believe. My point is that it seems more and more the few are once again trying to control the many. I like big shiny powerful things theymake me happy ,why does it bother other people that i spent my money in this way ,and they feel they have to convince me otherwise. Another forum i go to and mostly read and dont post has some members that come right out and attack anyone who says amps sound different.I just dont care for people that feel there lot in life is to make everyone think like them. Ah crap these threads always end up the same way, pass the popcorn

Even Richard Clark says there are reasons to buy more expensive amps: build quality, more power, warranty, looks, features, etc. Just don't spend more because the manufacturer tells you that theirs sounds better (which most makers don't actually come out and say, only the reviewers do that).

Chris ,you always manage to keep a thread neutral while still making your point. I really wonder how many have read that whole article ,rather than cherry pick the information that supports their belief system. All amps sound the same seems to have morphed into all amps are the same.

This thread begins with rather odd terminology, i.e., "Seems of late, to be a real push by a select few people", when what is being questioned is long-established in audio technology. Amplification adds voltage to make the weak incoming voltage strong enough to drive speakers at loud levels. If this is done with audibly level frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion(easily done these days in even units of modest cost), the job's been done and nothing more is possible. The editor of the Audio Critic summarized this nicely here in "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" .

Of course contrary opinions abound, but when put to the only type of tests which can be taken seriously when scientific accuracy is essential, i.e., carefully controlled double-blind listening tests, no support for them is found. The classic Stereo Review blind listening tests showed that differences described in some rather flowery detail before the blind sessions began disappeared when the brand labels and price tags did(including the comparison of the $220 Pioneer receiver with the $12,000 pair of tube amplifiers). Although in the past "audiophiles" expressed some interest in participating in such tests, now their general level of enthusiasm is about the same as a vampire has for sunlight.

A great thing about the current audio scene is the availability of receivers for a few hundred dollars which perform the basic amplification function with audible transparency. Amplifiers certainly don't measure identically with instruments far more sensitive than our ears, but that isn't the point. As has been pointed out, we listen with ears and brains, not a microphone and electronic analysers, and we're limited in what we can in reality hear.

so why do we keep buying these superfluous pieces of electronics.Are we really this easily decieved? Most of my listening is done at levels of less than 10 watts. I bought my amp solely because my denon is not 4 ohm rated and i bought the M80's afterwards and i wanted the added peice of mind. I did not purchase it as a means of improving the sound though i admit i was sure it had somehow enhanced what i was hearing.

Until i am a subject to said test i will hang on to my beliefs.

Your Denon would have no issues driving all your speakers, even upto 100watts now and then.

People that know me best, make fun of my level of interest in movies featuring con jobs and heists. I also have had, since I was a kid, an interest in magic and optical (and once I found out about them, auditory) illusions. Basically I have a huge interest in demonstrations of how our mind and senses are mislead. I don't perform magic myself (at least not for a long time), instead I like to watch, and tear apart tricks. The same with sensory illusions. I'm not saying I'm not misdirected initially, even with the level of exposure I've had throughout my entire life, with expectations of being mislead, I still fall for these tricks, and I love it.

People make the human body out to be the pinnacle of perfection. And then there are some who believe their sensory abilities lie far beyond that of the average person (either innately, or via training). I see our senses as a bunch of shortcuts that are optimized for the usual case, because 99% of the world falls into that usual case. Expectations about what you're seeing, hearing, even touching, tasting, and smelling, can easily override the actual fact of the situation. There really is a lot going on around us, so our brains cheat to sort it all out. If a line looks straight, even if it's passing behind another object, the safe assumption is that it continues unbroken. If you buy a shiny new piece of equipment, the safe assumption is that it sounds better.

Even though I know how the trick works, doesn't mean I don't enjoy the show immensely. I just try not to spend more for cost of admission, than my level of entertainment is worth.

Well put

Case in point: Denon Amp Vs. Ext. AudioSource; no discernible difference; not even with a mind melt. No surprise with the help of this forum. But, it's a nice and easy connect for my outdoor speakers (B) a welcome ancillary function.

Sadly, yes.


That's fine.

Clubneon. You are one articulate dude. The body is a truly amazing instrument, both in how sensitive it can be, and in how easily it can be fooled.

Maybe we are being fooled into them sounding the same....

I've thought about that too. And there's some truth to it, if you're predisposed into thinking there's no change, it's more likely you won't hear a change. That's why some scientific method needs to be involved.

On the forum for the music software I use, a really smart guy (this is me saying that. ), was schooling some people on sampling rates. Saying there's no audible difference between 48 and 96 kHz or higher. I agreed that any content above 24 kHz is useless, but made the mistake of thinking that 96 kHz can more accurately describe lower frequency content too.

This wasn't just a gut instinct, I had done the math, and was sure I had even heard a difference in the very software the forum was dedicated to discussing. So I output two wave files, each reproducing the same signal (three slightly detuned saw waves around 10 kHz), and tested them with the ABX Comparator plugin for Foobar.

OK, the point of this story. A lot of people don't understand the purpose of, or how an ABX trial works. First, it's purpose isn't to find out which of two things is better. It's only to find if there is a difference between them. Performing the test is very easy, on the other hand setting up the test to be truly double-blind can be incredible difficult. So in my case I loaded the two files, and told Foobar to test them on me. It randomly selects one of the files, that'll end up being X. Then I'm freely able to play A and B, the two files being tested. I just have to decide which one is X. I did 10 trials, and didn't look at the results until the end. Boom! 10 out of 10. There absolutely was a very different sound between the two, and I could match one to the other every single time.*

I've heard people say ABX trials are stressful, and they can't focus well enough for the test to be accurate. But in the case of amps, these same people say there is a huge difference between two amps. Night and day, right? If the differences are so great, that you can remember after minutes of silence while connections are changed, it should be no problem to identify one vs. the other when you can switch instantly. That's how it was in my test, it usually went this way, "play A, play B, play X, I think X is B, play B, play X, pick X is B, next trial." Toward the end I was so used to the differences, I'd go, "play A, play X, pick X is B." It comes down to, if the differences are great, the trial is easy, but if the two samples are so alike that even is straining and stressing, and wearing yourself down with the time spent on each iteration of the trial, you're basically left to guess which is which...you're guessing, and the samples are the same within your detectable limits.

*How could I tell the difference between a 96 kHz file and a 48 Khz file so easily? That's another story.

Hey wait a minute -- inquiring minds want to know! I'm assuming the difference would be audible in the region between 15K and 20K, with more transparency and less stridency in something like a naked recording of a ride cymbal.

But then, I haven't done the test...

OK, the reason I could tell the difference so easily, as is the case in so many experiments, I had a flawed assumption, and mis-prepaired the samples, so what I thought I was testing I was not, but instead testing something else entirely.

I've had the discussion about sampling rates numerous times, and had even done the math to show what I believed to be correct. But as I said above, what I believed was not what the Nyquist Sampling Theorem actually says.

I always heard talk of the Nyquist limit, that being half of the sampling rate. That's not the whole picture. In my own calculations I saw trouble if a signal was right at the half-way point (like encoding a 24kHz sine wave at 48kHz), or if there was any harmonic content above the limit.

Turns out Nyquist had already accounted for these cases, and specifically excludes them from the theory. From Wikipedia, "the theorem shows that a bandlimited analog signal can be perfectly reconstructed from an infinite sequence of samples if the sampling rate exceeds 2B samples per second, where B is the highest frequency of the original signal." There's a lot of information in that little blurb. One, the sampling rate must exceed twice the highest frequency. So the 24kHz wave can't be perfectly reconstructed if you sample it 48,000 times a second, it must exceed 48k. The other, the signal must be bandlimited. That means the signal must contain no content at or above half the sampling rate.

So my test of a saw wave at 10k, was not valid. I picked that waveform because of it's harmonic content so there'd be something to hear in the upper octaves. It contains both even and odd harmonics. But that means the 10k fundamental had considerable content at 20k, 30k, 40k, and beyond. The first odd harmonic (30k) had already exceeded the limits of what the Sampling Theorem stipulated.

What happens when you have content beyond the Nyquist limit when sampling, is you get strange aliasing artifacts. It's a 1D interference pattern, you get peaks where they shouldn't be. Choose a different sampling rate and you get a completely different pattern of bad data, but it all sounds similar enough to saw-tooth harmonics that if you were to play only one sample it'd seem reasonable enough that what you were hearing was right. But when you sample exactly the same data at a different rate and get you get different harmonic content. It's obvious something is wrong.

So yeah, my ABX trial was fine, the data I was testing was produced by a incorrect premise. I'm trying to come up with a valid trial, but I need a lot of harmonic content to be audible, but can't have any of it reach or exceed 24kHz.

Chris, I really think that your calling is as a professor. You have such talent for explaining complex matters in understandable ways. I really enjoy and appreciate learning from you!

I just want to see Chris driving around in his car playing dubstep while wearing tweed.

I bought my newest 2 channel amp because i wanted an amp with an almost unlimited amount of power... The amp that i got has WAY more power than i would ever need. It is also one heck of a piece of engineering, the build quality is amazing, the exterior is built of all machined aluminum, and looks like the beast that it is.

The (Bose) stereo in my car is broken. But I should totally get a tweet driving cap, then I can hum the dubstep.

In my house are many rooms, if it were not so, I would not be able to prepare places for so many amplifiers.

I can tell you, not all solid state amps sound the same. Not even close and the differences are obvious to a discerning listener.

However, if one believes as an a priori that all "well designed" (please feel free to drive your Kenworth through that one) solid state amplifiers sound the same, then all distinctions will end up like the toes of Cinderella's sisters, so the foot might better fit.

2x6, remember that rooms are the second most sound-altering component (right behind speakers) of the entire system. You have many amps in different rooms, correct?

Now, I'm sure over the years you've swapped out different amps in the same room. Of these times, how often were you able to switch amps quickly -- as close to instantaneously as humanly possible? How many of these times did you ensure that levels were matched as closely as possible when you compared?

A fundamental principle of human sensory processing as that our senses have a poor memory. The brain does not store raw data. You can't re-access your unbiased impression. Once it's in memory, it's linked with emotion and bias -- e.g. "Whoah, that sounded crisp, clear, and wide open! I'm pretty sure I like it more than the other amp" is something your brain would file away for later retrieval.

So, how do we get around this limitation? Instantaneous, level-matched swapping! Even when done in a non-blind situation, it's a much more reliable method of discerning differences between devices (speakers, amps, media players, etc.). Of course, as all of us in the "brain trust" have tried to convince you of before, the only way you can definitively say that one sounds better than the other is to remove as much unwanted bias as possible. Unwanted bias comes from your eyes. It comes from knowing the price and build quality. It comes from everywhere but the actual audio you hear.

Which product sounds better to you is the only bias that matters. And, as has been shown time and time again, when tested in a rigorous scientific way, the theory that well-designed amps sound the same has not been contradicted. For this reason, it's as believable as the theory of gravity.

The methodology is living with a component in a system over a period of time. Some systems 'shine,' some are competent, none are less than that.

As to Cam's moronic tag that "socialism is the essence of love," The problem with socialism is that some ruling elite decides which class is to be a privileged class of takers and which to be givers. I don't think it is fair that I should work and pay for the food, shelter and medical care of someone who sits on his ass, smokes crack, and sleeps all day. I don't think it is fair that someone should vote how much of my income should be confiscated by taxation and given to another as a reward for their indolence.

Socialism is not love. It is theft from the productive and a reward for the indolent.

As to those who are unable to care for themselves, because of injury or illness, then society should care for them.

I bow down to you, almighty 2X6. I thought _I_ was the best at derailing a thread, but this is off the charts!

Thank you, and Happy Birthday.

Sometimes I don't know why I read this silly forum. But I am reminded when I laugh out loud heartily at someone's post.

LOL indeed

You're both welcome, but my finger smells funny.

Was it really necessary, 2x6, to go from discussing technical concepts to belittling a person's personal beliefs about society?

Yes, if you put them out there in your signature, you must expect to have them talked about. However, that seemed like a pretty big jump to take in this case. What kind of a person's brain goes from 'the audible effects of amplifier components' to 'your a moron cause you believe in socialism.'

Can you explain to me how me how that was productive to your technical argument?

Edit:Congratulations on inciting what I'm pretty sure is my first inflammatory post ever, on any board.

I suspect it's the booze talking.

I think you answered your own question, but take a look at Cam's post ... it consists of nothing but his socialism-is-love tag.

My post dealt with the topic as well as the only content in Cam's post.

Now, Murph, you may agree with Cam, or maybe you're a purist who is offended by any off-topic comment but I think you may agree that the problem with the Axiom site is NOT too much discussion.

I find the impulse to stifle speech, by taking offense, interesting.

Wait - do you mean 2x6, or Murph?

2x6 My confusion comes from the fact that I have been back and forth, from top to bottom, of this thread and the only post I can see from Cam is where he quoted Peter on technical opinions and added a happy face. To me his message was simple and easily understood. It was "I agree with the above."

The above had nothing to do with politics and a person's signature is not considered in scope with the body of a message, at least not in the Internet culture I have lived in. He has had that same sig for some time. It's not like you have not seen it before and it definitely wasn't just created for the topic at hand.

It was the jump away from a technical topic to an attack that bothered me.

To respond to your concepts of why I suddenly broke out of a normally solid shell when it comes to our boards conduct:

I am not defending, nor rebutting, socialist values. There are other threads where that is being discussed and I didn't participate in those either. This would be an example of why.

I'm also hardly a purist, I derail threads with the best of them. However, it's usually either a natural progression of topics though or perhaps some light hearted humour.

You are correct. I love the Axiom board because of it's boundless discussions. Please, by all means, continue to to discuss your political views. I believe you have that right and I encourage it. I actually enjoyed reading about the pro & con socialist argument in the other threads. I don't feel I'm educated in the topic to share my opinions on it but by listening I learn.

My point was not to discourage political discussion. I am simply of the opinion that when you take a totally non-political thread and suddenly suddenly choose to 100% change the context by accusing a person of moronic thinking based on their personal beliefs, then this is not the furthering of any discussion, it's a personal attack.

We see it all the time of course, and anyone on an Internet board must learn to suck it up and live with it. No prob. I can deal with that. I think it was just the super sudden shift in gears that threw me off kilter

Long post. Apologies to furthering the derailment to those who disagree with me. At first I was going to let it drop but then I figured, If you have the right to say what you said , then I, at the very least, have the right to explain my thinking as well.

I'm getting really annoyed that I have to wear reading glasses now. I know I'm not that old but not needing any sort of glasses for 36+ years then seemingly all of a sudden having to use them to read text is rather frustrating.

I'll miss being able to mock my wife for being blind without her glasses on. /sniff

...how's that for a new derailment?

1.50+ for me. I ordered 3 pkgs of 4 from Amazon.com, sprinkle them everywhere.

At the risk of derailing the derailment, I have some favorite cds which I love. Some amps make these cuts shine. Some less. No A/B testing. It's just a matter of living with the system for a while - and the music. People are not test equipment. Music is not reduceable to a frequncy response curve. Not all amps sound the same.

Socialism steals our liberty, our distinctiveness, our dignity and our property. Proudhon was a fool.

I have often overlooked this myself. A controlled test can't account for this since it is based at a "point in time" which can be influenced by several biases including how an individual was feeling that day.

Same principle applies subjectively to auditioning equipment in a showroom. Something that might sound great for 20 minutes might not be something you want to listen to over 3 hours, a week, a month or year.

Your statement is extremely pertinent 2X6.

Working out, BlueJays1?

Buff, smart and only slightly off axis. Good on ya.

I agree, my system often sounds much better when it's 70 degrees outside, I have my windows open, and there's a nice breeze.

But the controlled ABX test isn't about which sounds better, it's about can you tell the difference between A and B. As long as the conditions remain the same throughout the trial, it doesn't matter if you're having a good day or not.

Right, indeed. One doesn't need to "spend quality time with a device" to figure out whether one sounds different than the other. Your brain-ear system doesn't need to ease in in order to detect subtle nuances. The part that takes time is deciding whether you like it or not.

Actually, mine sounds best with the lights off on a calm night in the winter (less outside traffic, wind ect) with the furnace not running. When the noise floor is at its lowest possible point and my senses are most acute.

My car runs better when it's just been washed and waxed.

My car hates the sound made by hammers.

I think that the origin of my inner Grammar Nazi can be traced back, about twenty years ago, to a car wash sign that says, "CLEAN CARS RIDE GOOD".

It's still there after all these years - a testament to my self-control.

I wax my car while listening to my garage system making great car waxing music. It does run better when slippery.

[img:center][/img]

2X6,

What amp found its permanent home in the garage system over time? I remember seeing a couple different amps in the past. Vintage solid state, modern solid state, single-ended triode?

I forget, this discussion doesn't apply to 2x6, because many of the amps (and cables) he selects are actually not well designed, and function as tone controls. So they do indeed sound different.

This discussion still applies to him. He has probably owned more amps over time than any of us combined. If he owns a couple tube amps so what.

Ouch ... Club Neon figures my comments are not worthwhile because my amps are not good enough. I didn't know you were such a snob Club Neon.

I have just shuffled some amps around, again. The Harman Kardon PM 665 started acting weird in one channel, so I retired it and am trying out the Dayton DTA 100a 50 wpc T-Amp with a TCC TC-754 preamp driving a pair of M22s, a Velodyne sub and a Sony CA5ES CDP. Sounds very good so far, but haven't had it in place long enough for the final word.

I'm putting together a new garage system consisting of a pair of Dahlquist DQM 905s driven by a 20 wpc Lepai Tripath with a Vonage power supply, Klipsch LF-10 subwoofer. I haven't decided on which CDP to use.

A Yamaha M80 is in the wings in the event the wee Lepai T-Amp does not work out. I'll report back later BJ1.

I'm sitting in my office working late, listening to one of my favorite systems -

Anthem PVA 5 Amplifier [gets my top rating]
Sony TA E9000ES 5.1 Processor [gets my top rating]
Sony DVP9000ES [gets my top rating]

Love the Anthem amp!!! Truly world class.

Mine sounds the best with naked women running about the room. I'm sure there's some science behind that.

Murph. THere is this thing called the ifnore function. Works quite well.

Oh murmurs from the faithful. Ifnore, ignore, nothing to see here, just move along. Naked women, heh heh. Beer!! Tubes bad, Axiom good. Mmmmmm. Must ignore anyone who disagrees. It's physics dude. Your stuff isn't good enough for you to have a worthwhile opinion. We're cool. You're not. We're all on the same page. We're lonely. Where'd everyone go?

Crickets? Oh, tumbleweed!!

I should simply "move along," but your post has inspired me.

If all you find here, or all you think we find here, is naked women and beer, then you have totally missed out. Since I don't believe you are that obtuse, I will assume that implication, along with "Your stuff isn't good enough for you to have a worthwhile opinion," "We're cool. You're not." "We're all on the same page," none of which I believe has been asserted or is true, was an attempt at hyperbole.

But, even if those assertions or implications have been made, all you need do is respectfully and courteously disagree.

AH, that brings me to the "must ignore anyone who disagrees" thing. I am so amazed by this phenomenon which I find exists on forums all over the internet. When things get testy during a discussion, invariably someone accuses another/others of picking on him/her simply because they disagree. In most case, it is not the disagreeing that causes a problem, it is the obnoxious, offensive, insulting method of expressing the disagreement that lights the fire. Stunningly, folks never seem willing to examine their own behavior to see if maybe, just maybe, it might be part, or or even all, of the catalyst. I suspect any desire, on the part of other forum members, to ignore you has more to do with behavior deemed offensive than with disagreement.

Yes, I know. It takes two to tango. I've said before that I feel you've been mistreated on this forum. Well, you've dished out your share of abuse and this could easily descend into "well you said it first." Regardless, I fear you've reached the point where your only interest in being here is to push our buttons, and being the intelligent and perspicacious person you are, you are very good at it.

I did have a good laugh at the "We're lonely. Where'd everyone go" thing. I get you point and it has merit. However, exceptional support of a company and its products, on a company operated forum, is nothing unusual. Behave as you, and others, have behaved here, on any company run forum, and the results would be the same. Try walking into a biker bar and saying "motorcycles suck." You have every right to do so as long as you are willing to bear the consequences of your actions.

However, there are still a lot of forum participants here and new ones join all the time. I don't feel the least bit lonely or wonder where everyone has gone. We old regulars are still here because we have found some friends and, for the most part, enjoy the courteous, respectful exchange of ideas even with those with whom we disagree. Why are you here?

I've been posting here for 10 years. I have purchased more Axiom speakers than most, I'd guess. I've given away more Axiom speakers than most, I'm sure. I don't believe you can find a post of mine on audio matters which is rude. I am occasionally sarcastic.

However, when someone waives the bloody red flag of socialism, even if a poseur, I may, if moved at the moment, say what I think and the reasons for it. So for me the tag, "socialism is love," is offensive as public taking from the individual is accomplished by the threat or use of force, including, historically, murder on a grand scale. Hence, "moronic."

IMO, when someone provokes, shouldn't be surprised by success.

Six - I have a similar opinion as you on many political matters, I just stay the hell out of those conversations. I get too worked up. I also agree with your comments about the tag line in question. It irritated me off when I first saw it. There was someone who actually had Bin Laden as an avatar at one time here that totally blew me away. Sometimes the extreme liberalism that takes place on this board (at times) gets me spun up as well. I just don't let it anymore and I do not comment. It's not worth it. Having said all that, calling someone a moron was a bit harsh, don't ya think??

Who the heck had Bin Laden? I'm sure it was in a joking manner. Trust me, liberals despise him, too.

Speak for yourself, Ken. I'm still in mourning.

That bacon? It's pork so I don't eat it. I use it ironically.

I think what I said was, "as to Cam's moronic tag ..."

I commented on his Che Guevara tag as well. He's entitled to use whatever tag he wants, promote whatever murderer he reveres, but I figure I'm OK with responding when moved.

You're splitting hairs, the intent is the same. But fair enough. I get your point.

how about "all amps sound the same"; no politics in this, right?
even if everyone (almost) knows that it's under some conditions.

Anyone going to harp on Rick about his tagline? It says "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud"

There's a lot of people on this forum that are retards....And all those retards in Iraq and Afghanistan. They're all afraid of your weapons.

Ohhhhhhh, but no, he's part of the "gang" around here that NEVER call out each other like this. I'm NOT the only one to notice... I'm pretty sure 2x6 has mentioned this before, too (mob mentality or something of the sort).

I could care less if Rick has a signature like that even though I think it's really asinine and extremely offensive. He's entitled to it, and I'm not going to whine about it; especially continually when it's not even part of the topic at hand.

Bye.

Come now, people, can't we all just get along?

Cam is right. Let those Afghan's shoot their women if they talk back. I mean after all, what's a soccer stadium for,anyway? Yes, and throw acid in the faces of school girls who have no business learning how to read when their prospective spouses can't even count to 4. Mohammad cartoons? Blood in the streets from Kabul to Karachi, Copenhagen to Instanbul.

Whoever thought they could change Afghanistan through force of arms was a bit ... sorry for the political incorrectness of it all, but retarded. However, the impulse was noble and we thought we could prevent the emergence of more lawless territories like Fuquwadistan, the tribal territories of Pakistan where Jihadist terrorist train, study and organize under the covert protection of the ISI.

Iraq? Yes, another mistake. Who knew that a Muslim totalitarian police state was better than a Shia Jihadist terror state owing its allegiance to the mad mullahs of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

It's a complicated world full of hellish sht holes. We're lucky.

Oh, did I actually say those things out loud? OK, well... all amps don't sound the same.

I'm glad to see you like the tag Cam

I have no fear of weapons (former hunter and Vietnam veteran). However, I do have some concern about many people who own and carry them.

Isn't Cleveland where the river burst into flames and they elected the dwarf space alien, commie, Dennis Kucinich to the House?

Is Randy Newman from Cleveland? If so, it can't be all bad.

I agree with S2000, all amps don't sound the same! You may as well say all speakers sound the same.

ah, jack. Sometimes you make such fine posts. For the record I said nothing about beer. It strictly naked women and music for me. I despise beer. It's a sin, I know and I tried to like it, really, I did, but no dice. Hmm, maybe I should try naked women music and wine...

As for ignoring, I reserve that for those who have no respect for people who disagree with them. Yes, piece of wood, that would be you. On the whole, I really enjoy people who disagree with me. Surrounding myself with those who only agree with me would be boring.

I'm still with Johnk on the amp thing, but really, if others disagree, that's not a big deal.

Thanks for the kind words, Fred. I'm human. I'm just as capable of screwing up, overdoing, understating, or losing my cool and embarrassing myself as the next guy. But, I do try.

No you don't.

FredK writes:

"As for ignoring, I reserve that for those who have no respect for people who disagree with them. Yes, piece of wood, that would be you."

Is that name calling, Fred? Goodness gracious! I probably should have seen this coming from your tag, "Physics, it works Bitches" not from the physics part, but, you know, the bitches thing, whatever you mean by that.

OK. FredK, keep ifnoring ig it makes feel better. You probably meant 'ignore' before, I know. Just kidding with you. Have a nice evening!

I broke the dam