Appreciate any input here guys. I mentioned this on the "two centres" thread but I think it may have gotten buried. At present, I have on order, a VP150. I've heard a couple of comments basically supporting the idea that two M22s may be a better route to go. Pricewise, there is not too much difference between a single VP150 and 2 x M22s. Sonically, is it an improvement over the VP150?

I can't answer your question, but a single M22 might work well also. What do you have for your left/right speakers? You could match them, that would be ideal.

Adrian. What configuration were you thinking? Johnk's post on the other thread sums it up nicely.

You are working with two concepts here: two centers to anchor dialog on the display (one over one under the display), vertical alignment of drivers to get the best horizontal dispersion of sound from the center.

I am using M80s up front and was planning on using the M22s horizontally, tweeters out, under the TV (they'll be v. close to ideal listening level height). Essentially this is similar to a VP150 but with 1 extra woofer and ports on the back.

you don't want to turn a bookshelf that was designed to be vertical horizontal, if that is your plan you might as well get a center channel speaker. The horizontal dispersion goes out the window by flipping it sideways.

SirQ, you are referring to the cabinet design itself? I've fired an e-mail to Alan on this also, to see what he says. I don't really want to stand them upright in my setup, but for arguments sake, let's say the M22s were in fact, stood upright, do you think they would be preferrable to the VP150?

I was running 2x M2 as a center channel, tweeters out, and was very happy. I finally gave in and bought a VP100, not sure why because I was already sure that the 2x M2 would sound better.

The VP100 sounded better, even with the crossover frequency (to sub) set high to make sure that the slightly deeper LF response of the m2s was not muddying the voices some how, and I don't really know why. I still think 2x M2 should be better in pretty much every respect with the possible exception of power handling.

Adrian, I think Randy is pointing out that the M22's are ported and designed to be played vertically. Of course, only he can answer to that. Also, the ports may cause some issues if placed in an enclosed shelf unit like the vp100 or vp150 are designed for. The cabinet design of the M22 is not quite the same as the center channels which allow for two different angles if I see the websites pic and details correctly. I have been looking in to a center channel myself and have been using one of my M3's in a vertical position above my tv and so far have some mixed emotions on it. Probably an M2 or an M22 might better match my M80's. Won't know unless I try it or someone tells me different. I know another M80 would be the ticket but that ain't gonna happen in my current living room setup. Not sure if I would need two of any of the three though. Meaning the M2's, M3's or M22's. Just my two and a half cents worth.

My stand is about 60-70% open at the back, it's one of those tiered glass (3 panes) type stands, supported at the front corners and in the middle of the back, so I wouldn't be concerned about the porting. The 22s have such great reviews and are often said to sound, dare I say "M80ish", that it sounds as if they would blend extremely well with M80s up front. This is just something I wanted to put out there, to you guys that might have tried it, whether successfully or not and compare the two. Obviously the VP150/M22/M80 are all well timbre matched, as they use the same drivers and twtrs, so the differences are probably subtle anyway.

My 150 works great with my m80's, can't imagine it any better.

If you are putting them horizontal, I wouldn't bother. Just go with the 150. The 150 is optimized for horizontal placement.

If you have room for vertical centers, one above and one below the display then consider something like the M22.

I vaguely remember asking a lot of questions like this before I had my system. Things will make a lot more sense to you once you start to audition.

Adrian,

Since you have the VP150 on order already I would try using that as your center first. While auditioning it during your trial period, if you still feel compelled to use a bookshelf as a center you can return the VP150 free of charge and then try the bookshelf of your liking.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'll stick with the VP150. I don't believe there's a definite consensus one way or the other, vs the M22s. I suppose, if the M22s are set up properly (that would mean one above the screen/one below) that could very likely sound better though not likely as esthetic vs the VP150. There's probably only a handfull of guys actually did a direct compar. between the two and setup of the 22s would be the key by the 'sounds' of it.

I agree.

I also agree, especially when you consider the placement of the center is usually within a cabinet making the rear ported M22 not as desireable, I guess I should glue the top ends together of my M22s and plug the ports on the back and cut new ports on the front to see how they sound this way.

That seems... excessive.

Just a minor weekend project :), actually I would consider just making a new cabinet to mimic the dual M22s with front ports.

Ok, Jay, we'll expect your results on Monday....

Hey I am not that quick in the shop and it is cold out there right now, well colder than I like, maybe this summer.......

-20F* ... "Colder than I like" !?!?

What do you do, wait 'till the shop warms up to a balmy 0* Jay? That would be about mid-summer for you, right?

My garage is usully around 0c/32F during winter (it's attached to the house and south facing) and I certainly prefer mid summer temps. Remember I have gone for 5k runs in 35 to 40C heat with 90% humidty, I love heat and humidity. If I felt compelled to venture into the garage right now I would, but this is a project that can wait.

I would have never suspected it got that hot up there Jay, that's pretty warm, especially with the humidity.

We can give you a couple more days, Jay....no rush.

The humidity doesn't get that high in Calgary,although we do see ~35C a few times a summer, more like an oven though very dry. I was in Nelson B.C, right on Kootney lake when it was 44C and ~90% humidty a couple summer ago. I felt it was the right time for a run so off I went, most of my usual aches and pains never materialized and my lungs felt great with the high humidty.

Thanks for the extra time Adrian

Canadian record temps....1937, Saskatchewan 45*C (113*F) excluding humidity. In 1936 Manitoba and Ontario exceeded 44*C (111*F) excluding humidity, killing 1180 people, mostly children and elderly. I can tell you that 35 to 37C with humidity is brutal (like 45C), I can't imagine what 44-45C feels like with our humidity.

Might as well post this here, now that we've derailed the thread! Have any of you guys tried building your own speaker cabinets at all? how did they turn out? this is something I've got to try in the future.

I've tried this arrangement and I can confirm what everyone else has said...it's not very good. I also tried 2 M22s vertically on either side of the TV and I liked that much better. My favorite was vertical M22s on both sides plus a VP100 above. It really filled in the center stage. I just don't think my receiver could handle it at higher volumes for too long, so I ended up with a single VP100 above. It matches very well with my M60s, and I'm perfectly content with that set up.

Thanks, Joe, that was the type of answer I needed to hear. I'm going to stick to the VP150. Alan told me the lateral dispersion wouldn't be quite as good as the 150 if I use two M22s (horizontally)but said if you were seated directly in front it wouldn't be an issue and said there is an argument to be made that the M22s would be 'warmer' sounding. He actually uses bookshelves himself, above and below his DLP in his New York apt.(M2 or M3, I forget)in the vertical position as I understood.

Hey Adrian,

Are you following that "other" thread? Forget the M22's and get another M80 for the center.

Yes, unfortuntely I was reading it, there's no way I'll be adding a couple of M80s for centres....excuse me (phone interrupting again)....Hello....yes it is...oh! Hi Noreen....yes, change the VP150 to two M80s...ok! thank you, bye!...uhhh, when's the EP800 available?

Where does it end?

You two need a team nickname, like Abbott and Costello, or The Two Stooges.

I remember telling my wife in 1995 after getting my Dolby Prologic decoder and a center and rear speakers that I was now done. I wouldn't need to buy anything else.

I am still eating those words today.

paul

Adrian

I would be very very suprised if you didn't like the 150. I have had mine for over 5 years. It's eaten everything I have feed it, and still seems to want more. It works well in my 4000 cubic foot dedicated HT. I really don't feel the need to revamp my center channel choice. I would rather put that money in other areas.

paul

The VP150 was the first Axiom product I purchased and it lead me to buy a whole set.

One of the guys I gave an audition to ended up getting a VP150 (amongst other Axioms) and he brought it to my place as he thought that it didn't sound right at his. I can't remember exactly what it was but there was a slight very slight difference in sound. At any rate, afterwards for fun we ended up hooking each one up (L & R) for 2.0 and 2.1 listening and were surprised how well the VP150's sounded. They could really hold their own and there was no strain at high volume playback.
They really are very good centers and I think most people just don't play with the placement enough. I know I really enjoy mine more below my screen apposed to hanging on the wall or on top of the TV.

The 'Odd Couple' maybe?

Check back with me in 10 yrs when I am fine tuning my M200s, VP450, QS16s and helecoptering in my dual EP2000s.

Hi HAY,

Yes, you've totally nailed it with the comment that people don't play around enough with center-channel placement. When I was doing a bunch of listening tests to Axiom's centers and other models, just for fun I tried a pair of VP150s, vertically, as a stereo pair and was amazed at how good they sounded.

It's true I use a pair of M2s, vertically, one above and one below my DLP as a center over the VP150. When I tried various placements of the VP150, I was startled at how different its tonal signature was in my room on a shelf below the TV and then on a rack above the TV. The differences were far greater than between a VP150 and two M2s. I think I slightly prefer the two M2s because using the pair kind of randomizes the tonal differences of the two locations. But we are talking about nuances here--differences that I really only notice when I'm using an A/B switcher.

Regards,
Alan

Alan:

Choosing a center channel has been an ongoing area of experimentation with myself over the years, that is why I have tried so many of them. In my opinion and I think many would agree, unless you are in a situation where you can use "identical" model speakers across the front, location can often negate the advantages of same brand speakers hoping they will give you similar voicing. I have never fully bought in to that idea since, as you have stated, just moving a center channel slightly can change the timbre and you can really never get the flow of sound to match perfectly, especially if you are using "full-range" M60's or 80's in a L/R configuration with their considerably larger cabinets. After all the years of experimentation, my latest endeavour has been to move my VP150 from the top of my 65 in. RP CRT to the front on the special Axiom CC stand and place an M3 on top of the set tilted toward the listening area. I have always found that the small drivers in CC speakers(regardless of brand) tend to give you somewhat of a mid range "cardboard" type sound but in my case the addition of the M3 picks up that mid-lower end of the voices that is absent in the VP150 and tends to "widen" their range giving them a more "natural" sound. However, since you now have TWO speakers doing this important job, this set-up does lock the dialog much more "in your face" on the screen so volume levels have to be carefully adjusted.

Casey01,

Interesting, and basically I agree with you on the fact that timbral variations with location can sometimes negate the advantage of similar voicing on same-brand speakers. In fact, in my tests, the VP150 sounded its best on a separate stand in front of my TV/component stand. I couldnt' leave it there because it was simply impractical. It stuck out too much and also blocked the infra-red signals from my remote to the AV receiver and other components.

I also experimented with a number of different-sized bookshelf speakers from other brands as centers, models I've had kicking around from tests in the past. Some of those sounded awful and a couple were very good.

Your addition of the M3 along with the VP150 is interesting as well. I haven't tried an M3 as a center yet.

Regards,

Alan

Who is this talking about?

Anyway, Adrian, Just get an M22, M2, M3, and a VP-150 alongside an M80 for a center and you're all set!

... but if you want to hang with the cool crowd, go for dual M2s