Hello Speaker Gurus,

I am about to pull the trigger on a 5.1 HT and hope to get advice from the gurus. Having done much research, here is what I have come up with - maybe someone can tell me if I am making a mistake or not.

Conditions:
*Room size is 16x20x6.5 (low ceilings), but the "viewing zone" is 16x12x6.5. Small to medium I'd say.
*Receiver will be Onkyo SR608
*Home theater use only
*Budget is $1500

I have come up with:
Axiom M2's : L&R
Axiom VP100 : Center
Axiom QS4's : Surrounds
Hsu VTF-1 : Sub

Questions:
Does this seem like a reasonable system for an HT noob?
Will it provide enough sound, or should I try to move up to M3s in the front?

Also, I have read conflicting things about where the QS4's should be placed: should they be behind my couch or directly to the sides. More room to put them in the rear.

Thanks guys!

Welcome! The helpful ones will be along shortly.

TCM, welcome. If your "viewing zone" comment indicates that you'll be sitting about 12' away, I'd give a higher recommendation to the M22s, although the M2s should provide a reasonable sound level. I'd suggest using a vertical M22(or M2)for the center speaker, to get a wider and smoother horizontal dispersion.

The QSs in a 5.1 setup should be placed a little (maybe 2-3')farther back than directly to the side so that a little bit of "phantom" back effect is added, in the absence of actual back speakers in a 7.1 setup. If this means mounting them on the back wall, they should be spread as widely as possible, almost to the side walls, since they're still side surrounds.

My gut instinct says that the m2's are going to be to small for that room. Ideally vp 150 and m22's. But that being said, to stay with in your budget you will have to get the M2's, if you could save a bit more money, i think it would be worth waiting until you have the cash to move up to the vp 150 and m22's

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the advice! Probably I will be ~10 feet away from front speakers with ~3 feet to the wall behind. The side-to-side direction is technically 22 feet, but slightly enclosed to form a 12-foot "room". I am surprised that you suggest a vertical M2 for the center - I would have naively thought that the dedicated centers would be designed to give better dispersion.


Right. So, 3 feet back would indeed be the rear wall, so I could hang them close to the corners. I am guessing that with this amount of space then, 7.1 wouldn't make much sense.

Thanks!

Thanks for the info. Hmmmm, if it was only a 16x12x6.5 room do you think the M2s do ok? Basically, I have a 20-foot-long room I want to split in half and dedicate to the theater. All the equipment will be in that half of the room and I may even build a wall or half-wall to close it in. I could even bump up to M3s and still stay on budget.

I don't know if you're already considering this or not, but unless you're one of those guys who just CAN'T wait 3 to 4 weeks for your speakers to arrive, then look hard at going with speakers from the Factory Outlet (found on the main page). Those of us (I used them for all of my speakers) who have purchased through the F.O. have yet to find a flaw in the finish, and the drivers & everything else are perfect, they work and sound identical to the regular merchandise, so no worries. You will enjoy 10% savings off of the original price, plus if you're ordering 5 speakers you'll get another 5% off of your total order, so 15% off all together.

This might help you move up to the M22's, or at least the M3's if that's the way you want to go. Or buy the M2's, try them out for 30 days, and then if you don't think they'll work return them for M3's or M22's. You can also try out the different center channel speakers to see which you like the best.

Welcome Tin, here's something that I would do given your budget and desire for a satisfying HT. I would definately look at the M22's for your fronts as John and Dakkon suggested, but what I'd do (I stress "I") is go with the QS8's over the 4's on the surround side and in order to stay within budget, for now, I'd forego the centre and run a phantom centre for the time being...this will be about in line with your budget and these speakers are certainly an upgrade over the others for the space you are filling and you won't have the "what if?" hee-bee-gee-bees later on. To bring the cost down a little(10%) consider the Factory Outlet...nothing wrong sonically, barely visible blemish if you can find any.

I wouldn't say this is accurate.

The consensus seems to be that most who have purchased through the outlet find no flaws, while the rest find minor flaws. As noted, they work and sound identical to the regular merchandise.

It's been extremely rare for anyone to find a flaw that they object to, but to state that the speakers will be flawless is setting someone up for a possible disappointment if they find ANY flaw at all... even a minor one.

But yes, many of here recommend the outlet as it will save you quite a bit of money.

I for one would rather pay the full price to insure that I don't get something that has flaws. To me the extra 10% buys peace of mind.

Good catch Mark, I didn't actually mean to say that. That's what I get for not proof reading eh? Lol

Yes I had intended to say, "haven't found much to fault them", as in it's hard to find much if anything wrong with the finish. I certainly would not want to give the impression that they are flawless, and to expect flawless speakers though. Unless we're talking performance... THAT should be flawless!

You can also upgrade to Regular stock if you're not happy with the outlet...

You know, I don't think that M3/VP100/QS4 would be a bad choice at all. I have a VP100 and QS4s and I'm generally satisfied with them. I have a larger room than you do, I think. Of course, I also listen at lower volume levels than most around here, which explains why I have M80s. (???)

Certainly an option, I'd be curious to know how many people have actually been unhappy with their F.O. speakersd anyway? No doubt there have probably been a few over the years, but I wouldn't imagine very many.

Usually I'm with Cat, and would rather spend the extra cabbage ensuring my speakers were 100% flawless. But after receiving my speakers I couldn't find anything at all to warrant returning them.

I only remember 2 instances. One of which the speakers had a rather large chip and even Axiom agreed that they shouldn't have been shipped. There was a post with pics somewhere...

Out of all my Factory outlet speakers ( epic 80/500 5.1) only the subwoofer had a noticieable flaw. There was a small scratch on the back.

No trouble with FO speakers, here. I would definitely order that way again.

I absolutely disagree that a VP150 is warranted in that size space. VP100 is a very good speaker and certainly adequate.

The QS speakers are awesome and seductive. I love my QS8's. HOWEVER, they are expensive when you're on a budget. Going to (onwall?) M2's for the surround speakers saves you ~$200 which could be applied to upgrading from the M2 to M22 for the mains (which I definitely recommend). A lot depends upon how much flexibility you have regarding mounting the surrounds.

I agree with Ken that M3/QS4 would be just great for that size space, too. If it was me, I'd try to figure out a way to get the M22/QS8, though.

You definitely don't need 7.1.

I don't know what they're getting for shipping, but Outlaw has their LFM-1 Plus for $467 right now, which seems like a very good value. Hsu helped design it, I believe.

Good luck! Enjoy the journey!

My "regular stock" order of HG cherry vinyl came with flaws, misaligned sheets with gaps. Maybe I should of ordered F.O.
Anyway they sound great.

You guys must like it loud!



I stuck it in a cart and went through checkout -> looked like free shipping.... so it is cheaper than a delivered VTF-1. Seems like a deal to me.

That Outlaw sub will be a better performer than the smaller Hsu. That's a great price.

I too would try my best to at least upgrade to the M22s.

I own 12 Axioms, all FO, with only difficult to find, if any, blemishes.

As for liking it loud, it isn't that the M22 plays louder, it also plays deeper, giving a "fuller" sound. The M2s are the only speaker I wouldn't buy again. They aren't "bad", by any stretch. They are very clear, very precise; much better than many other speakers I've been forced to listen to. It's just that they pale so much in comparison to the M22s, despite the fact that they have the same clarity and "sonic signature". If I couldn't swing the M22s then I would go for the M3s. They may have slightly different characteristics (some say less precise) but I like mine much more than my M2s ('though not as much as my M22s).

Doesn't the subwoofer in theory compensate for any lack of low-end on the M3s? Sorry if that is a naive question. I sense I am on a slippery slope here... M2->M3->M22.

Did you ever contact Axiom? If you aren't happy with the finish you should, how long have you had them?

OK, I just noticed that the Outlaw is only on sale (+free shipping) until tonight, after which it will cost ~$130 more to get it. I am tempted to pull the trigger and then build the following around it (after suggestions from you helpful folks):
2x M22s
1x VP100
2x QS4s

This seems like a lot more speaker than I had my eye on originally and my question is: is there any downside to buying up like this? I am worried that this set will overpower my little room and I will have to somehow run in an non-optimum mode to keep the volume down. (I will probably be listening at 15 to 20dB down from reference to keep the wife happy.) I know these are incredibly naive questions and I appreciate the help.

I use M80s in a room that's 19x20x8, 8 ft from the TV. You won't overpower the room with M22s.

Yes, and if you're not careful you will slide right into a pair of M80's!

I think you will be very happy with that set-up. Happier than you can imagine right now. And don't worry about low-level listening, Axiom speakers (from my experience anyway) play quiet EXCELLENTLY! They are crystal clear and intelligible down to the lowest number on the volume knob.

You're biggest problem will be the subwoofer moving the furniture around upstairs!

Whoa, yeah I would have contacted ASAP.

I actually run my M3s without a sub, but I run my M22s (and ran my M2s) with a 10" Paradigm. Even though running the sub does fill in the low end I still found the M22+sub superior to the M2+sub. I suppose the M22s have a better midrange.

Also we don't really think of it as M2->M3->M22. It's more M2->M22 with M3 off to the side. The M3 uses a 6.5" driver versus the 5.25" on the others, giving it a slightly different sound.



Of course, it wouldn't surprise me to find out I'm full of crap and fail in a blind test.

Thanks for the advice guys. I just pulled the trigger on the LFM-1 Plus. Couldn't resist -> counting the shipping it was about $150 off. Now I just need to buy a TV, a media player, a receiver, and my Axioms. Wish the new Samsung plasmas would drop.

Whoo Hoo!

Don't wait for the new stuff to drop. By the time it does the new 'new' stuff will be out and then you'll want it instead. Just buy the biggest screen you can afford from last year. Trust me once you get it in your basement and away from the newer screens down at the appliance store, you'll never notice whatever it is that it doesn't have.

I bought Sharp's 60 hz LCD screen even though sitting next to the 120 hz & 240 hz models it wasn't the BEST looking model. All I had to do was remember back two years when it first came out how much better it looked than anything else in the store, and how bad I wanted it, but couldn't afford it. Then I looked at the price tags & realized that there was no way the other screens were worth two to three times what this one cost.

And now that it's in my living room it looks stunning. I don't ever notice that it's an inch thicker than the L.E.D. screens are. Nor do I notice it refreshing itself half as many times as the newer screens. Or that it has a measly 10,000 to 1 contrast ratio... which is about as high as the human eye can notice a difference anyway (sort of like audio equipment that play up to 40,000 hz... The human ear can't hear anything above, what 18,000 or something like that? Likewise screens with 1,000,000 to 1 contrast ratio's are overkill. It's wasted on the human eye).

And the reason I don't notice any of those things is because all those other screens are down at that store, not in my living room. Once it's in your living room, it has no competition.

I suspect you are 100% correct. However, it is a character flaw of mine to over-analyze any purchase over $200. The new Sammys are due very soon and if they have decent blacks and good 24p, I will buy one. Otherwise, it will be a Panny 54G25. Either way, there will be a set in the basement by May (just in time for flooding season ha)

Dude, I over analyze any purchase over $20. You're doing well.

we've been there and done that, You're not full of anything

OMG, so you're saying... (Gulp) he's 'Hollow Man'???

If only he were full of love, he wouldn't have to feel so empty all the time.

He's....he's.....ANECHOIC MAN!!!

Anechoic Man is the one that cannot reverb to his old form?

He tries to do it frequency, I mean frequently.

Technology changes so fast that by the time you buy the latest gizmo, the next one is out anyway. I bought a TV last year that was last year's model, but about 2 years behind in technology, at a fairly cheap price. This works well for me.

Its been said that Anechoic Mans farts break the sound barrier. But come to think of it, so do mine.

We should do a study. Again, I started to skip this thread - as Medic8r points out, there are many more helpful than me....then I got curious. This thread stayed on topic for about 3 1/2 pages before Micah spun it off track. So....we had the best derailer discussion some time back - this study could be on how long the average thread stays on track?

Reminds me of a quote that I failed to include in the Quote Thread. It's another Christopher Hitchens one. Jerry Falwell's name came up for discussion.

"If you gave Falwell an enema, you could bury him in a matchbox."

don't buy a samsung, or a panny... try to find a best buy that still has a pioneer KURO in stock. i found one in my area that had one, told the sales guy i wanted to make an "offer" on the TV.. he said well, it "costs" ..., I replied, "There is NO way I'm paying that for a product that is not even manufactured anymore..." They called the manager to talk with me... I told him, "I'm willing to pay 2500$ for this unit" he asked if i had seen that price online somewhere.. I simply told him "nope, but I'm willing to pay 2500$" He finally said 2599$, now, keep in mind the tv i was looking at retailed for something like 6k$...


If you are looking for a display, Definaly look up the KURO's.. panny made a deal with pioneer, but no one knows if that will make the pannys close to as good as the KURO's were, or are...

ok, thats enough of my rant on want Display to buy....


I would tell you to think about building a wall, but either build a full wall, or nothing, its all about air volume. if you build a 1/2 wall, then the air volume in the room will be the same.

I would also advocate looking at a V150 over the 100, because 70% of movie dialog comes from the center channel.....


As far as the speakers being to much.. No way, i had M60'S VP150 and an EP600, all in 10X10 room.


Call and talk to Brent. He is who i go to for advice

Pull the trigger on that config. You will be really pleased with the M22's, they are excellent. Q4's are good and the suggestion of the M2 as the center is a good one, but don't get talked into the VP150 upgraded down the road. The VP100 will do you just fine and keep your budget in line.

Ha ha, I like your style!

I find it amusing how many people think that you have to pay what the sticker price on those big items say you have to pay. With so many stores out there struggling to bring in customers, and the limitless options we have with the internet at our disposal, we the customer have the leverage these days, not the sales guy. They absolutely hate it mind you, you won't be getting any Christmas cards from them, you can forget about that. But you'll get out of that store with a lot more cabbage still left in your pocket.

When I bought my screen I went into my local HH Greggs with the best price I'd found on the internet (had the shopping cart page with the total end cost printed out), which was about $400 less than what the sticker on their screen said. I handed the guy that piece of paper and told him I was just at the house about to purchase this TV on that site when I figured I'd step out and see if they were able to get anywhere close to that price since I'd done so much business with them and wanted to give them a chance to get the sale.

Their reply was, "we can't compete with the internet".

"Oh I see, well I can understand that sir... thanks anyway", I said. Then I asked him about all the cables and such that I was going to need to connect the new TV that I was going to go home and order that night online, up to my other equipment. I rattled off a rather long list of cables that I was interested in (even though the only cable I had any intentions at all of walking out of there with was a $20 dollar HDMI cable I'd seen when I first got there), RCA cords, S-Video, Optical Audio, Power Conditioners... basically everything I'd bought in there the last time I was putting together a HT (and was under the impression back then that the more I spent on the cables, the better my picture/sound would be). There was no way I was going to drop another $800 bucks on cables like I did when I was still wet behind the ears mind you, I just wanted to stick around for a while to give them some time to think about the TV sale. After all why would they want to let me walk out of their store with almost $3000 dollars in my pocket and let me give that money to someone else when I could give it to them?

It didn't take all that long, soon a manager walked up and said, "well sir, usually we don't do this, but....", yeah yeah yeah, of course they don't. They don't want everyone bringing in the best price they can find on the internet and expect them to beat it, man I can dig that, if I were in their shoes I wouldn't want to give anyone that impression either. But over the years I've come to understand that this is all a game. If they were there to save me money, they wouldn't have let me spend almost a $1000 dollars on cables the last time I was out there doing this when I could have easily got everything I needed for well under $100 bucks. They won that hand, this time I stacked the deck in my favor.

I've learned the value in doing your homework, finding out everything you can about the product you're interested in. If you know more than the salesman knows about the piece of equipment you're looking to get, it gives you a lot of power. It let's them know right off the bat not to fuck around with you, that you're on top of everything. Automatically they throw out all their bullshit schemes of trying to up-sell you into something more expensive and/or items you don't even need.

Salesman : "Well sir, you've chosen a great TV, and I'm not sure if you have a Blu-Ray player right now or not, but you should check this one out over here. It's the newest model out and I must say the picture looks fantastic".

You : "This thing? It doesn't look to me like it has Anchor Bay's VRS technology, does it? It doesn't support SACD, and there's no 7.1 analog outputs out back... (scatch your head) my God, that looks like an HDMI 1.3 connect, not 1.4 (not that you could tell just by looking at it, but he probably has no clue what HDMI 1.4 even is), why on earth didn't they go with 1.4, don't they know that 1.3 is dead? I'm curious though, tell me does it output the DSD in native format or convert it over to PCM"?

Salesman : "Oh, ummm.... you know what I think that, ahhh... Hmmmm, honestly sir I'll have to run and check on that for you.... ummm can you write down you're question about the ah, what was it, the PSP..."

You : "Nah don't worry about it bro, I'm happy with my Blu-Ray player I have at home".

You can bet you won't be getting any pressure to purchase ANYTHING you haven't asked for after that. Yes in my experiences I've learned that the second you walk in through that front door the games begin. But if you play your cards right, let em peak at that wad of money you have in your pocket, keep your cool (never act desperate, make em think you have all the time in the world... you have more important things to worry about. And don't be afraid to walk out with nothing if they don't want to budge), and be polite. You won't get anywhere if you walk in like you own the joint and belittle them. Being knowledgeable is good... being cocky is not good.

Play the game this way and in most cases they will make the sale so long as they aren't going to lose money somehow. And the good news is if they absolutely won't play ball with you, you really can go get it cheap on the internet. You'll just have to wait a few days longer to get it.

It is nice, to pressure them, rather than letting them pressure you....

Man, if I tried anything like that, my heart would be pounding, I'd be sweating, talking really fast, and my hands would be shaking. I hate bargaining.

Use it to your advantage, Ken. Tell the salesman you forgot your meds that day, and you're extremely, extremely easily agitated and how you've pretty much forgotten the incident with the car salesman 5 yrs ago, rest his soul....

I hate bargaining too, esp with auto salesman, but I know it'll save me plenty so I force myself. I basically tell a salesman, I'm making a deal today, either with YOU...or the other guy...which is it?

My usual strategy is to get my wife to bargain for me. When I bought my piano (probably ~$3500 list?) she got it down to $1900 with a free bench by saying to the salesman, "I don't care about it, it's just a big hunk of plastic to me." The pained expression on his face was priceless.

Tell me she didn't use the same tactic when you were shopping for rings.

"I don't care about it, it's just a big hunk of metal to me."

you CAN'T get emotional, I honestly didn't care one way or another, and everyone could tell. My buddies would ask me to go car shopping with them, cause they knew the sales guys didn't have a chance... and since it wasn't my car, I didn't care if we walked out with or without a car, we would just try again the next weekend.. emotions will always screw you over financially, thats what a lot of these sales tactics depend on...

Talk about derailing a thread... sry

I don't like haggling, which probably IS why I buy most things over the internet. It does make me sad to talk to salespeople at electronics stores, though, since they know so little. Next time I'm in the market for something, I'll have to try the local stores just to see how far they'll go to get the sale.

I didn't used to like haggling either. It wasn't until I looked back at all the money those guys took me for when I didn't know any better that gave me the incentive to go in there and put my game face on. You see I used to always think those guys were in there to help me make the best decisions for my HT... HA!!!

So no I don't go in there any longer with an open mind and then open my wallet to whatever they tell me I need. "Yeah but those guys down there are just trying to put food on the table for their families"... yeah I know the schpeil. But I don't like it when I'm lied to so that they can feed their families. Making an honest buck is one thing, fraud is another. I feel like I was bilked out of a lot of hard earned cash because I fell for the snake oil pitch. No I didn't go in there years ago wanting to buy a $350 dollar Monster Cable power conditioner/surge protector, the guy at the store told me I'd be a fool to purchase that 65 inch Toshiba rear projection television without having it hooked up to one! Preying on the ignorance of your customers isn't cool. Therefore I've lost my sympathy for those who greet you at the front door at the big box stores. Now that I see through their game, I have no problem throwing my best back at them.

"But what if everybody did that, pretty soon those places would go out of business"... not a chance. I'd estimate a good 85% of the people who purchase from a big box store don't pay a penny less than the sticker on the product told them to pay. It's just not in our culture to haggle, well except for places like a car lot. So I'm not afraid I'm bringing down an entire way of doing business by going in getting a screen at rock bottom prices every ten years or so. If they go out of business, it won't be bacause of me.

My only other option is to buy it off of the internet, which hurts them even more. So at least I'm throwing them a LITTLE something.

i have a buddy who works for best buy, he said he bought a cable to connect his computer to his receiver.. he pays 10% above cost i think? he said the cable retailed for 35$... he paid 3.5$..... now the markup isn't always this much, but if i bought a tv, and needed a few cables, i would have no problem telling them, i want "X" cable.. with the TV...

As far as budgeting goes, if you have to buy incrementally I would recommened getting the L/R and center first (and sub), and adding the surrounds later. Unless you're into action files, the majority of films don't have a huge surround presence; while the center channel is used in almost all movies.

Right, but - depending upon your room setup and listening habits - a phantom center channel can work quite well.

That's right, let's all weigh in with our own preferences and confuse the hell out of this poor chap.

I'd go with twin subwoofers first myself

I thought I was ready to go with the M22+VP100+QS4's, but I had an unsettling discussion with a class-3 audiophile today and he had me questioning everything. Implication was that dumping all my money into a top receiver would make even $30 dollar speakers sound good. Then he starting going on about his cables and I had to stop him. Am I dumb to dump $1500 on speakers to hook to a $500 receiver (Onkyo SR608 is the plan)?

I've actually heard the opposite...a good set of speakers will make even a cheap receiver sound good. Don't worry, I've got $2000 worth of Axioms hooked up to a $500 receiver (Denon AVR 790)...and it sounds fantastic!

I'd go listen to his system. If you like the sound, then follow his recommendations. If you don't, then get other opinons.

TC, from what you describe, a "class-3 audiophile" would appear to be one totally out of touch with the realities of modern audio technology and who isn't to be taken seriously. One of the great things about the current audio scene is the fact that for a few hundred dollars we can have fully-featured receivers(such as the Onkyo)that provide audibly transparent amplification within their designed limits. A receiver which would amplify with an added sonic characteristic is either defective or hasn't been competently designed as a high fidelity unit.

I have some $30 speakers buried in my basement. Hook them up to a $7000 Mac amp they're still gonna sound like $30 speakers. My own spending turned out something like 25-35% of budget on power/process and 65-75% on speakers.

Telling you to 'dump' all of your money into a high-dollar reciever was strike one. Telling you to buy $30 dollar speakers was strike two. Talking about wires period was strike three. Actually, anytime anyone tells you his wires are what makes his system sound good... you can pretty much turn your brain off to anything else he has to say.

SRoode has an excellent point, go listen to his system. See how good it sounds, and get a clear picture of the price tag he paid for it. Then find someone in your area that has something similar to what you're wanting to buy (if that's possible), or even go ahead with your order (it's refundable after all), and listen to the way it sounds. Compare the two systems and their price tags, and see which one you think is the better deal.

I'm not saying his system won't sound good, it may very well sound great. But my guess is compared to what you'll get for much, MUCH less, you'll realize you don't have to sell the farm to get a good sounding set-up.

What's a class 3 audiophile?

I think Micah described it quite well.

If I remember correctly I think it means he's from another dimension. He was probably teleported here through a set of high-end speaker cables.

Nah. Teleporting is wireless, not across a physical medium. A Class 3 Audiophile is someone who had to repeat the Audiophile Class 3 times before they passed it.

If he passed Audiophile class, then what's he doing giving out tht kind of advice?

No I'm pretty sure it has something to do with being able to kill people by bending sound waves with his bare hands.

I would say the typical take on sound is Speakers first, as they have the most affect on sound, then the room they are in, and lastly the elctronics that feed them. Spending most of your budget on speakers will yield the best results, IMO.

He didn't, but the teacher was tired of looking at him every yr.

Hmmmm.... I betcha he wore feathers in his hair to trible counsil.

Learned a valuable lesson today - don't do all your homework from the internet. Went to a magnolia (best buy) today and watched and listed for about 90 minutes.

Impressions:
Every TV in there looks better than what I have.... man. Also demoed the new Sammy and Panny 3D sets and they are quite impressive. Sammy maybe more so, but probably due to better source material (Monsters vs Aliens).

In the sound booth they had only Definitive and Vienna Acoustics in bookshelf. I found it very hard to make quality judgments between the $500 and the $200 speakers - they were different, but I couldn't say if one was better or not. Not in that environment. Maybe the difference would be more obvious at home.

That bares repeating!

I'm really afraid for the next generation, because the internet is so much a part of their life, they don't know what it was like before the internet was around, when you actually HAD to get out and physically go down to a store to research this hobby. Don't get me wrong, the internet is marvelous and has brought about possibilities never before imagined. But there is no substitute for hands-on research.

Take my television purchase, before I went around and actually compared different TV's I read all about the new plasma's and how great they were. They sounded so wonderful over the internet that I thought forsure I would be a plasma owner in the near future. But once I took those impressions to the store and compared plama's to LCD's to LED's... all of those impressions fell by the way side.

Not to bag on plasma's mind you, but they just weren't for me. Their definition was superb, motion flawless, colors fantastic... but when sitting next to an LCD or LED, they seemed dard, and dare I say 'dull' looking. The LCD's and LED's were bright and had a certain 'wow' factor for me that the plasma's didn't. Of course the first few plasma's I saw next to LCD's I figured maybe they just weren't fine tuned correctly. Maybe the set-up guys didn't give them enough brightness. But when it became the same story with every plasma I could compare next to an LCD in that store, and then the next store, and the next and so on and so forth, well then I realized that for my personal tastes, I was an LCD guy, not a plasma guy.

Now I've been over to my fiancee's ex-husbands house who just recently bought a 60 inch plasma and I thought it looked awesome. So like I've mentioned in other threads once you have a screen in your viewing area away from all the other screens down at the store you'll get used to the way it looks and you'll probably never notice that it's darker, or the colors aren't quite as snappy, or the motion is a bit more blurry or whatever... it becomes less important once you get it away from other competitors. So if the best screen you can afford isn't the absolute BEST unit in the store, don't sweat it too much.

But certainly actually being able to experience things in person is absolutely a huge factor in finding what you really do like personally. That's why if there's anyone in your area that you could possibly go over and demo their Axiom's it would really help you out with your decision. I had made my mind up on Axiom's, and then just before I pulled the trigger on my order I had second thoughts. But then I got to demo a fellow Axiomite's equipment... that was all it took for me to know that Axiom was the brand for me. But you never know, they might not be the brand for you. You might be a silk-dome tweeter kind of guy. You just don't know until you compare

Hit as many different stores as you can and listen to as many of the different types of speakers as you can find until one of them stands out above the rest to your ear. The second part is bringing them home to listen to in your environment. Something can sound great in a store or someone else's home, but then sound completely different in your own home. And that's why companies with 30 day trial periods like Axiom are so useful. They let you figure out if their product is truely a good fit for your home without much risk if they turn out not to be.

I hope you can find someone in your area that can accomodate you for a demo. That would be invaluable!

Post deleted. I didn't notice there was another whole page of replies before I started with mine. Nothing to add that hasn't been said.

I do that sometimes, too, but then I try to act like it didn't happen.

Like when you're walking and you trip so you just kind of go into a "jog" for a moment?

I don't trip.

Surely....you must be tripping....

Never have, unlikely I ever will.

I've never tripped either. I just sometimes kick a raised edge of concrete to show other people who are less graceful than I that there is a tripping hazard right 'HERE'.

Yeah, and sort of mime tripping, just to reinforce the point.

Precisely. I'm not clumbsy, I'm a good samaritan.

I actually curious about the other half of this story.

Haha, yeah my life is filled with very odd stories. Like for instance, my first wife is now married to my best friend. And no I don't mean ex-best friend. He is still my best friend, and I must say, I couldn't have asked for a better man to step-father my children.

Then there is the my current fiancee, she and her ex-husband have been separated for around 8 years now. The two... ummm, well 'gentlemen' she was involved with during which time Tony (her ex) did not like much at all, and definatelly did not want around his kids. Then when she and I got together the first time he came over to pick the kids up I went outside, shook his hand and introduced myself, and we've gotten along famously ever since. Quite frankly, I think I was someone who he respected, and thought would at least be a good father-figure in the house, unlike the other two candidates she'd been interviewing. So he decided to play nice. He was the guy who helped me put my HT room together. In the pictures of my room in the early stages, there's a guy walking past the camera who I pointed out as 'Tony'.... that's him.

Now for the really interesting part.... I address him as her 'ex' because it's just easier that way. You see they're still married. They have lived in separate houses for 8 years and have obviously seen other people, but they never got divorced because with her owning her own business she couldn't afford insurance for herself and their kids, so they've stayed married all these years to keep insurance on herself and the kids. So in essence, I'm shacked up with his wife, and he comes over to help me do stuff to his old house (we're laying tile in the studio out in the back of the house this week)...

You don't hear things like that everyday.

I just tripped over the details of your relationship.

Maybe it's an Indiana thing??? Sounds like the making of a sitcom! Wait a minute, I have an ex-wife who married a friend of mine. WTF!

You can't fool me. I can see the end of this little movie plot you have going a mile away. Tony is going to mysteriously die in a horrible, flaming, dental record destroying, car crash. Then you both collect the insurance, run off to Mexico where you adopt a pet lizard named "Flicky", meet up with the real Tony and give him his share.

It gets complicated because your fiancee's secret son with Tony, hunts you down in Mexico, blackmails you, and then in a surprising show of cruelty, shoot's Tony, his own father, when you don't pay up. You get really scared and pay the blackmail money only to learn that the son has run off to Brazil with the really, real Tony. This is discovered when you go to hide 2nd fake Tony's body and the home made, bee's wax makeup has melted from his face in the hot Mexican desert sun.

However, it all works out because on the now dead 2nd fake Tony's body you discover a cell phone with a timer counting down. 2nd dead fake Tony suspected he might get double crossed and rigged the pre-arranged money bag with a bomb set to detonate in 48 hours if he didn't call to disarm it.

You two, using your last bit of cash that was hidden in your pet lizard's house, bribe a corrupt Mexican telephone company worker to access the GPS tracking on the number set to be dialed on 2nd dead fake Tony's cell phone before the bomb goes off. You then fly down to arrive just minutes after the bomb goes off in the hut that real Tony's now dead son is using to hide in the jungle. You fight off snakes, killer spiders and sexually aroused monkeys while you rummage through the body parts with a metal detector to find the safety deposit box key that they transferred all the money too and retrieve all the multi-stolen insurance money.

Sorry, Micah, you can't fool me. You need a wayyyyyyy less obvious plan.

And oh yes, Don't forget! Real Tony will still be out there!!!

You deserve a real Tony.

Well done, Murph.

So now I'm confused... Is Micah the real Tony or were they identical twins separated by birth and never knew the real story of how their father had faked his own death, ran away with the insurance money, got blackmailed by another son, ...

I want whatever coffee Murph is drinking in the morning.

Would you believe it's only Sanka?

Well this is all fine and good, but the thing is Murph, this is pretty much verbatim the scenario that played out with me and my first wife. Except her ex's name was Fernando, it all went down in San Marco, and in the end Fernando turned out to actually be Muffit, the android dog off of Battlestar Galactica.

I was hoping this relationship would turn out a little more original.

You guys need to sell the rights to this, I see a miniseries here, if not a an M. Night Shyamalan movie.

If we can snag Stanley Kubrick it will do much better at the box office.

"Snag" as in dead tree?

Correct. If we can dead tree Stanley Kubrick, box office sales will be much better. I used the term 'snag' because it flowed better.

um, not to change the topic, or anything but in reply to post number #297529, posted by tincanman. On the topic of the 200$ speaker V.S. the 500$ speaker. In all honestly, it's up to you if the 200$ speaker sounds better to you then buy it. It's all personal taste.

As far as the whole cable thing goes, I use 10guage cable, because at that point no matter what the speaker will never use anywhere near the current that the cable can provide.. The cables are also DIY cables

Electronics.
I have gone from a Marantz reciever, to a Marantz reciever+Marantz amp. to a Nad processor with the Marantz amp. Now I have a Krell processor with Krell amps. 1 (3 channel) and 1 (2 channel), each amp is rated at 250W at 8 ohms, and 500W at 4 ohms... To be completely honest. The Krell electronics do sound better, but only because of the balanced interconnects between the processor and the amp. this completely eliminates any electrical interference. The Marantz amp would have a few channels occasionally clip during a movie. The Krell amps have WAY more power than the axioms will ever want.

I would say sound quality is pretty much the same for every solid state amp, the only difference being how much power they can produce..

Did the best buy you went to have a Kuro on display??

TCM - I suggest you look at the Denon 590 or 1610 which are very similar models marketed through different channels. One of my neighbors asked for advice in replacing his very old Pioneer pro-logic receiver with a new 5.1 receiver. I started looking at Pioneer and Onkyo but stumbled across the Denon while reading customer reviews on Amazon. Check out the Amazon customer reviews for models from all three companies to see what I mean.

Those Denon models are the lowest priced new units that matrix all inputs onto the HDMI output. They don't upscale the non hdmi inputs, but usually an expensive TV does that better than a low end receiver. I installed a Denon 1610 for my neighbor and can say that it's very impressive for the price. The only complaint is that the manual is hard to follow. I have a Pioneer VSX-45 but I'm sort of jealous now of my nieghbor's Denon. Let me know if you have any questions.

Bill