Hi, new to the forum and was wondering if anyone has any opinions on whether it is worth going with a 7.1 or 5.1 setup. Also which package of speakers would be best for the room layout and dimensions?

Welcome to the forum Bleevin. Do you have a budget in mind? Is your space already finished or are you building? Are your ceiling standard 8 foot height?

Personally, I would go with a 7.1 setup with that kind of space. The difference between 5.1 and 7.1 isn't huge, but there is a difference - how much can depend on the room. also, it looks like there's a lot of open connected area, so without knowing all of your relevant details I would tend to go with larger speakers (M60/80) with a good subwoofer to make sure you get good 'room filling' sound. The real experts will be along shortly - I'm just a hack at this stuff having a good time along the way!

Cheers,

Thanks for the reply...

Budget = about 2200 cdn
The whole space is in the process of renovations so the ceilings are ripped out and most of the walls. It's basically a complete canvas. The ceilings are actually about 10feet but in the middle of the media room is a bulk head that drops about 2feet and is about 5feet wide and then it opens up to 10feet ceilings again.

How about 7.1 but put the extra two up front (height or wide)? If you have purchased a receiver yet, might be wroth looking into.

I had the same debate. After much hand wringing I went with the 7.1 setup using QS8's.

We just watched "Saving Private Ryan" this evening.

Get the 7.1

With a speaker budget of $2200, I think I would start with a 5.1 system. That is a lot of cubic feet to fill and you may want to consider a good sized sub, EP400 might be a good place to start. I think you will get a better bang for the buck this way. Make sure you wire for 7.1 and you can always ugrade later.

I have a dedicated HT room at 4000 cubic feet and am running 5.1 and it sounds great!

paul

Since you have no back wall, assuming the top of the 13x23 area is your HT I think you would benefit from 7.1 as long as that doesn’t make you compromise on what speakers you will get. In which case I would start with 5.1 and move up to at least 7.1. Reason being is that w/o a back wall to help develop a rear “phantom” soundstage with your surrounds I don’t think the experience will be nearly as enveloping as it could be. While you can always move your 5.1 surround speakers farther back than 90 degrees to each side to assist in creating a rear soundstage w/o the wall behind you, you loose the benefit of the reflected sounds coming off that wall. If you do move the surrounds far enough back then you will likely get a gap in the sound stage between the mains and the surrounds unless you are sitting fairly close to the front. Basically no farther back than the distance between your left and right mains.

The farther back from your mains that you sit including the more rows of seats you have the more you would benefit from adding rear and possibly even wide speakers as you stretch out the soundstage lengthwise.

With 10 foot ceilings height speakers could be nice but I’ve found that if the surround and rear speakers are elevated at least a few feet above ear level then the height speakers don’t add that much IMO.

I haven't purchased a receiver yet but I'm partial to Denon as that is the receiver manufacturer I've been using for the last 7yrs. If anyone has suggestions for a good model I'm all ears.

The HT will be located by the guest bedroom wall.

There will be a back wall but the back wall is about 10 - 11 feet from the planned seating position. One of the rear speakers will have to be mounted above a window which would put both rears around 8 - 9 feet off the finished floor. I'm not sure if that would make a difference in the sound of the rears?

Sorry I didn’t pay enough attention to your picture now I see the speakers drawn in. I think you are a great candidate for at least 7.1 with that room configuration. With your seatin 12 feet back I think wide speakers would help but not as much as rear speakers would.

My room is 13x21 so close to yours. I sit 15 feet from the screen but only 12 feet from the speakers as their drivers are about 3 feet out from the front wall. I’ve tried only 5.1 in this room and found that moving to 7.1 really helped fill out the 360 degree sound field. Since it looks like your surrounds are fixed at about 12 feet due to the right one I really think that you would find it worthwhile to use rear speakers.

Personally I prefer using QS8s for both surround and rear speakers but if your closest seat to the rear speakers is 10 feet I think you could use M2 or another bookshelf speaker as a rear and save some money.

Because of the distance to the mains I find that wide speakers also help make the sound field more enveloping but it’s not as noticeable to me in a long room as adding rear speakers is.

Bleev, welcome. Yes, you have plenty of room behind your listening position to mount 7.1 back surrounds for a rear sound field. That height is a little more than the typical 3' above ear level, but still excellent with QS8s.

As to a receiver, for the most cost-effective purchase, consider a factory refurbished unit which should be at least as reliable as a brand new one. I'd suggest that you also consider Onkyo models such as the 1007 and 3007 from Accessories4less, but if you want to stay with a similarly excellent Denon, a very good buy at this time is this 990 for about $640 plus shipping.

Bleevin

You have about 3000 cubic feet of space in you room( not including the wet bar and play area). I would suggest you look a at the Grand Master 350 and consider upgrading the subwoofer. However, that is a 5.1 system and is already at around $2100 and is getting very close to your $2200 budget. Remember you will do better if you go with the factory outlet.

I'd rather see you spend the money on a better qualty 5.1 system then a sub standard 7.1 system (based on the room size). The last thing you want is to start to bottom out a sub becasue it just can't fill the volume of air in the room.


An upgraded subwoofer or center channel will give you sig. better sound then adding the back surround speakers.

Get your 5.1 working right now, worry about 7.1 later.

paul

The 400 would be the wrong choice for that room (The 400 is designed to give deep bass to small rooms only). The 350 would be more reasonable, but the 500 more likely satisfying.

I agree with Mark on the sub. A 400 would not be sufficient but certainly better than no sub at all if that's what the budget permits.

I also add a vote in for 7.1 in a room of that size but again, if the budget is demanding, spend the money on a reallllly good 5.1 system and add the extra rears later.

For a sub, definitely an EP500, or better.

Sorry to jump in here again, but the 400 is actually more expensive than a 350 (which would outperform a 400 in a large room) and not that much less than the 500.

I don't mean to sound harsh on the 400, I would love to have a couple for their intended use... but they're not a good choice in terms of output capability OR cost for a large room. They're a niche item.

I agree with the recommendation of going to a good 5.1 system for the quoted budget. You could upgrade to a 7.1 system in the future if you pre-wire now as someone suggested. Even at $2200, that's a tight budget if you are going to use M60s or M80s up front....you might be looking at M22's as mains to stay in budget. Try a couple of scenarios through the factory outlet to get the discount, and see what you come up with.

I've decided to wire for 7.1 and try out a pair of 7yr old Energy bookshelves as the rears, which means I'll be spending the budget on a 5.1 system.

My new question is... would the M22 HT package (Epic Grand Master) with the ep500 be sufficient? And when I upgrade to M60's would the M22 be too large if I moved them to the rears?

btw... just wanted to say thanks for all the suggestions and opinions.

The M22's might be too tall to mount over the window vertically. I'm going to be trying on-wall M22's for rear speakers one of these days, when I can clear an extra $100 or so needed for wires.

If it were me, with what I know today, I would buy 2 M80's and 2 QS8's. Then wait to get the rest of the system. You can do this for under $2000. You would end up with a much nicer system than settling for smaller speakers today.

Edit: The M80 and QS8 would give you the best sound for the money now. M80's will phantom a center. M80's will do bass, except for the very lowest.

While the M80s can handle bass pretty well, do be aware, that without a sub hooked up to the appropriate output on the receiver you will not get any .1, LFE content from movies. Even with the M80s set to "large", and the sub to "no", receivers don't mix the LFE content into the main channels.

Ok. You'd lose the LFE, but to add a sub, say EP500, the price then runs around $3000. I still think M80 + QS8 in that size of a room, would be a better choice than M22 + QS8 + EP500. Especially, considering that the M22's would be planned obsolescence. Then as finances allow, purchase the EP500.

That is exactly what I am doing now in my new, larger room. I reused Harmon Kardon Bookshelves for the rears and they work great along with the rest of the Axiom gear. The rears do not have to match the rest of the system as much as the front lineup does.

Also, if I had to do it in stages, I would also go with a sub first over surrounds. It's really a matter of opinion at that point, but for me, I find very few movies have a lot of quality surround effects mixed in but everyone seems to be mixing in as much LFE (sometimes too much) as they can muster. Also, a sub will add more to music than surrounds will.

Again, it's a 6 vs. half dozen thing but that's my 2 cents. Ummm well, I must be up to a buck fifty by now. Just tell me to go away. I probably won't but you'll feel better.

Hmmm... M80 ($1330) + EP500 ($1230) = $2560. It's ok if $560 over budget will work.

EP350 might work, but there's a lot of open space into the office and game room that would have to be added into the total sq footage mix.

I'm no expert, but it seems that the 500 watts versus 300 watts would make a big difference. Although, I suppose you could run a single EP350 now then add another one to the back of the room later.

I don't know why you're saying buying the M22s is planning for obsolescence. Many have stated that the M22s plus a sub is an ideal pairing.

If I had to choose between M80s and no sub, or M22s plus a sub, in a home theater setting, I'd go with the M22s/sub combo without a second thought.

I guess I was focusing on "And when I upgrade to M60's...".

I was also just thinking out loud as to what I would do in this situation if it was up to me, but fortunately, it isn't up to me.

Edit: And it gets my post count higher. That's got to be worth something. Right?

I think it has been said, perhaps indirectly, that M22s + EP500 would be preferred over M60s + EP500. Someone who has compared them, could you speak up?

Doesn't answer your question on sonics but I might add that if you need to fill an exceptionally large space, I think you would want the added oomph of the M60s vs. bookshelves. Not saying his room is too big for M22s though.

I'm still fairly new to Axiom, but after prolonged discussions here I went with:
M22's for F/C/R
QS8's for Side/Rear Surrounds
SVS PC12-Plus sub
and I'm pretty darn happy in my 17x24x7.5 room.

The sound is crisp, clear, and loud enough to listen comfortably in the bedroom two floors up.

Yeah, Soundproofing is next on my list...

Excellent course of action to go 5.1 and use the old speakers as rears. Rear speakers are probably the lest important next to the subwoofer to have matching.

IMO the Epic Grand Master +EP500 will work very good in your room. I’ve tried it in mine and found that sitting 12 feet away from the mains it’s almost impossible to tell the difference between the M22s +EP500 and the M80s +EP500 unless doing a direct A/B comparison or playing very very loud.

Also the M22s will do fine as rear speakers. I used mine there for some time before deciding that I preferred QS8s because I only sit 5 feet away from them and find the closer I sit to the rear speakers the more I prefer multi-polar speakers like the QS8s over direct radiating speakers like the M22s. And no the M22s will not be overkill as rear speakers.

I am heading up to Axiom on the 11th with a buddy to enjoy the party. My buddy is also picking up some speakers at that time and I am pulling the triggeron a VP180 while I am there.

I was wondering if maybe I should consider moving to 7.1.

A few questions for you guys.

1. What speakers are you using for the rears (my HT room is 95% used for movies).

2. Are DVD's and Blu-ray's recoreded 7.1, what is the estimated percentage of new material, is it growing?

3. For DVD's and Blu-ray's recoreded in 5.1 in a 7.1 system, what info is sent to the rear speakers. And how noticable is it from a 5.1 system.

4. What about content recoreded in 2ch.

Room dims are 18 x 25 x 9 feet, approx 4000 cubic feet.

Thanks

paul

1. I am using QS8. I experimented with M22s and in the end, I got more satisfaction from QS8

2. Percentage of 7.1 is fairly small, but there are quite a few Dolby EX and some DTS:6 even from before BD. No idea if it is growing or not

3. The rear channels are used the same way as center channels and surrounds are used for stereo. Phased stereo is detected (between the two side channels) from the source and re-mixed to be played from a more acurately (spatially wise) positioned speaker.

ABOUT THE NOTICING: When I moved from 5.1 to 7.1, it was the least noticeable difference. BUT BUT BUT, a few months ago, I lost 2 channels on my A1400 and had to get down and recalibrate for a 5.1 system for a while. I really, really missed the immersion and was very happy when I got it back. Bottom line: I used to be very borderline on the 7.1, but now I would not go back.

1. Rears are Harmon Kardon bookshelves of some model. Rest of the system is Axiom.

2. Very few DVDs have a 7.1 track. A lot more Blu-Rays will have a 7.1 track but only some will actually have originally recorded in true 7.1 channels. Many, especially BDs of older movies first released on DVD have a 7.1 track where they just extrapolated the extra channels from the surround channels.

3. Ooops, looks like you already knew half of what I stated above. I'm not sure exactly how the logic works. I am just bored on a conference call so answering what I can.

2. Two channel movies and music can be modified into 5.1 or even 7.1 using the same built in logic if your receiver supports it. A lot of people use the Dolby Pro Logic II setting on their receiver to do just that, convert stereo to 5.1

With a room that large, I'd definitely give 7.1 a try. I didn't like it enough to keep in my smaller 12x12 room but in the slightly longer 12 x 23 room, I am enjoying it quiet a bit.

EDIT: The most important thing is to calibrate all your speakers with a db meter so that one speaker or section doesn't overpower the others and the sound comes from where it is supposed to come from.

I think it goes without saying that you should wire for 7.1 sound (two rear speakers). I think, also, you might consider (while the walls are open), wiring up two front "height" channels as well. Who knows where the next extension/innovation might be, but it certainly looks like, if 9.1 is going to happen, that's where it will be.

In re: 5.1 vs. 7.1 - here's my take:

I have a 20 X 13 room partially open to one side in which my HT resides. I have M60s and a VP100 up front, QS8s to the sides at 90 degrees to the listening position and two polk direct firing rear speakers about 4 feet behind the seating position placed on the ceiling, angled down.

With a wall about 6 feet behind the listening position (that includes an open staircase), I find that the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is negligible at most. The QS8s do such a great job of filling up that rear space that, when the PLIIx processor kicks in (on 5.1 source material, including DTS-MA or TrueHD), the sound space in the rear isn't changed that much - no "new" sounds are suddenly behind you. Rather, the sound is better reinforced (not necessarily louder, just more specifically placed) at times. Toggling between 5.1 and 7.1 the difference can be detected, but after a couple of minutes of listening, the effect is approximately the same in both 5.1 and 7.1 environments.

ADRIEN!! Where have you been?!?! I hope you are well.

Good to see your post, with which I heartily agree.

Yes, Tom, it's been years that I've been away. 2 kids, job, etc. leave little time to pal around on the interweb. It's good to see most of the gang is still around.

Adrien, welcome back! Good to hear that your family and hopefully your practice also are doing well. Hope that you can occasionally spend a little time with your Axiom family, too.

Welcome back, Adrien! We should have a DC area meetup some time. Medic8r is starting to bore me.

Wow. Took a lot longer for you than me, apparently.

You guys sound like my wife.

If you're talking about Tom's post, good on you, man.

Ah hahaha! You made a joke about the differences that exist in MTBE for men vs women.

Thanks, folks. I, frankly, can't believe that you remember me. But it seems that, while the avatars have changed, very little else has.

I'll be sure to lurk here a little more often and post occasionally, should I have anything less than (or more than?) imbecilic to say.