I've been looking at replacing my current receiver from the new Denon line. How are the new ones stacking up against the old workhorse 3308CI that everyone was getting into a couple of years ago? I have a 5.1 setup with VP100, M22s, QS8s, so I don't have extreme power needs by any means.

I'm looking toward the 2311CI, what are people's thoughts?

Alright, it looks like the xx12 line is just about to roll out, any thoughts on those as well?

Just get one that has the features you need. I've had the 890 (same as 2310) driving M80s + VP180 for 1.5 years and had no issue with it.

Does "thefwam" rhyme with Def Jam?

Im new to al this but I have m80s with a avr3311ci luv the receiver so far. Only issue I have is seeming the m80s can handle alot I tried a couple times turn it up to +10db to listen outside and after 5minutes the amp shuts down. +5db or lower seems to be able to handle for ahile.

Just my take over a couple days. Awesome features and so glade I got all the Audyssey technology

you should try to get more ventilation to the avr, maybe with a fan directing air to it.
+10 is very high level and if you'd want to do that on a regular basis, you should use separate amps along with the preamp outputs on the avr if you have them.

also try to make sure that when you increase the volume, you never hear distortion; if you can hear it it means the amp is overdriven and is clipping.

if you buy pro amps, most of them have a clipping indicator (led), and power comes relatively cheap with them.

Dustin, you shouldn't worry only about the amp shutting down, this is actually not the problem. What you should worry about is the amp clipping that can damage your tweeters. I remember when I first got the M80s, I turned the volume up to see how loud they could play and the amp started clipping around +5 or +7 (at least that I could hear). That will be source material dependent but whenever you turn the level above 0, you should really pay attention at the amp clipping. As JB said, if you do this on a regular basis, you should look at external amplification.

I can't turn my Pioneer Elite up high enough to hear clipping because it's just too damn loud if I did. Sometimes I turn it up while I'm on my treadmill so I can hear it good in another room, but going into the room where it's playing is painful. This is usually around +12 to +10 on the dial.

This probably means it's time to mount a couple of M3's on the wall in front of my treadmill. (Anti-ChaChing)

so in short dont push these babies till i get a seperate amp to run them. At 0db its more then fine. Just pumped them up and went outside. after like I said 5minutes it shut down. However my untrained ears heard no distortion or anything coming out.

i did also add a fan to the receiver but havent tempted the loudness again. It happened twice i wouldnt want a third. Hope no damage is done.

I seem to recall Alan advising on another post that going past 0dB on the dial is not a good thing - in general he advised to keep to 0 or less to avoid over driving the amp.

at zero, you might be very near the clipping point.

damage is cumulative for speakers if you overdrive the amps.
the best thing to do is to have more power than you need, then you will never clip the amp output.
the M80's can take a lot, if the amp does not go into clipping.

how can i tell if there is any damage at this point?

distortion in the sound at medium loudness levels or even low levels.

Steve, it would depend on what features you're looking to update in a new receiver. The 2311 is a fine unit if it has what you're actually looking for.

It should be pointed out that while "0" may be a good reference point not to be generally exceeded, it does depend, as Bruno mentioned, on the voltage input level from the source material. For example, a very low level recording might use only a tenth of the power at "0" that some pop item mastered at(or even slightly above)the digital max uses. The key point is the actual sound level which we should be careful not to exceed, both for the sake of the equipment and more importantly, our hearing. Volume above about 100dB, even on brief peaks, should rarely be used in home settings. Fortunately, very few listeners employ the "reference" level on movies(max of 105dB)at home for their listening.

How many db is "0" usually at for most receivers? And what is considered reference?

If the speakers are calibrated properly, 0dB should be 105dB on DVDs and BDs (115dBs for the sub). For CDs, it depends on how loud it was mixed.

I think it would depend on the sensitivity of the speakers.

....and the input trim levels .... and the output levels of various components....

Seek, to clarify the point Bruno made, 105dB is just the maximum level which a movie will have when a correctly calibrated receiver is set at "0"(or whatever other number was used during calibration). The actual sound level at 0 would almost always be much lower than the theoretical maximum. For example, if an ordinary conversation was taking place, the level might be 60-65dB. So, depending on what's happening in the movie at a particular moment the actual sound level at 0 might be anywhere from maybe a very quiet 50dB up to the 105dB maximum.

Music recordings don't have any specific reference level such as the one described above for movies. The level can vary widely between different recordings when the volume control is set the same. Typically, pop recordings are mastered as loudly(and almost uniformly at that level during the song)as possible, while classical and jazz recordings would usually be at a lower level and would vary more widely at different points in the performance.

Thanks, Johnk!

the playback level in my cd collection varies by as much as 30 dB.

it seems that the standard levels in movies is not adhered to all the time by the movie studios; there are differences in levels there too, but much less than with cd's.
right now, i can't tell by how many dB's it varies as i'm in the process of updating my system and individual movie levels are not calibrated.