Myths & Facts about Crossovers (Audioholics)

The war rages on.

what war?

Part of the article explains bad and good crossovers and various other design aspects. The bad crossover in the picture is from an Axiom M3 outdoor speaker, which is close to $400 and has a crossover that looks like it came from a $50 Sony bookshelf. The other is how Axiom runs their midrange full range which causes distortion and breakup whichs can lead to that harsh or bright sound.

The other portions of the articles or "war" is how some
manufacturers only want to do there own DBT there way only, Axiom doesn't want to submit there products to 3rd party shootouts even if they follow a strict DBT. Familiarity bias is a way for Axiom to chose there speakers as the better speakers or "similarly good". Which makes it out that Axiom can't be beat. But the only ones in that DBT are Axiom employees who know the Axiom sound and pick them everytime.

The other part of the series of articles is cabinet bracing. Axiom says you don't need bracing were other "serious" speaker manufacturers try to make the most inert cabinets possible. Axiom was never mentioned in any of these articles. Its just they usually do the exact opposite of what good speaker manufacturers do.

I took part in a DB test involving Axiom and B&W speakers. I don't work for Axiom.

As for bracing, I've never heard anyone from, or representing Axiom say that bracing wasn't important, only that excessive bracing is not required. All speakers would weigh hundreds of pounds if you wanted a completely inert enclosure.

Time to move on gt....

I guess I'm one of the lucky few that has an amazing set of speakers from a company that does the exact opposite of what "good" speaker manufacturers do...

Maybe they only got mine right?

Hey gt, obviously you have an agenda here. I researched speakers for about 2 years before I purchased Axioms. Guess what helped me make my choice? Audioholics reviews. So obviously either this publication can not be trusted or they have their own agenda now. The reviews by non other than the guy now bashing them. So I am done with that publication because they are now showing how biased there reviews really are. So why don't you take your agenda elsewhere because I am sure I am not the only one sick of your posts.

I value the opinions of the reviewers at 6 Moons. http://www.6moons.com
6 Moons has been bashed on this forum before, I think for being more artistic than scientific. But they have to lots of speakers. Expensive speakers. The M3's and the M80's were loved by these guys. That means something to me.

My M3's and 80's sound great.

I seriously doubt that cheesy crossover is from any Axiom product. Perhaps they were referring to another online speaker company. There are many companies out there. Perhaps you have an axe to grind with Axiom and assume its meant for them.

Interestingly enough about the fullrange mid, I found from my own experience on my M60v2s that when I play them at very high output levels during parties, the midrange driver gets overloaded. My solution was to run the M60s on "small" crossed over at 80Hz. The end result is much cleaner sound overall so I don't see what all the fuss is.

Other than Axioms complete failure of an amp, their A1400, which is now recalled, and their presumptuous attitude on AVS and here about their speakers being "similarly good" to the most extravagant designs, I don't have too many bones to pick with them. Heck I own a Mac and Apple claims their computers are the best in the world...

Cheesy Crossover read post #39 http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/lou...cabinets-4.html

Unless Gene is a lier.

You paid $1060 for a pair of towers that you realize that the midrange gets overloaded but your OK with that? Really?! What happens if someone wants to play there M60s in 2.0 stereo, you can't set them below 80hrz? Even though they have a 40hrz freq response.

Charles, you have called down the trolls upon us.

It's his birthday present to us!

True. I really wasn't thinking at the time I posted. Not that I think all conversation about it should be avoided, either. It's an unfortunate falling out that is going to sour people on both sides, but I think Axiom has more to lose. Not a lot would be lost if Audioholics went away, since they still review only a tiny portion of what's out there, but Axiom makes actual products that a lot of people like.

I clipped this from Myth #1.

Unless the driver has been meticulously custom-designed and custom-manufactured to have a natural, precise, controlled rolloff at the upper end of its operating range (which is theoretically doable, but is often a very expensive proposition)

Isn't this exactly what Axiom does?

The crossover image doesn't bother me in the least. It's 2 resitors and 2 capacitors. If that is what the design is then fine. Why would it be any better if it was on fancier looking board or if the caps were a prettier color?

"the proof of the pudding is in the eating", right?

in my book, "superb" sound = "superb" speakers; it can't be otherwise.

when i got my M80s, i found that the enclosure was not very rigid, but i could not hear any bad effects, and the sound is first class.
if it was not, then i would not be able to say that the reproduction is very realistic; my room just disappears...pffft! and i'm away in the recording hall, listening to beautiful music in all it's glory.

an important thing i would like to remind people on here.

the only good way of dealing with those "funny" people is to not answer whatever they write.
when their audience is lost, they go away....pffft!

I think I'd check your seams. It sounds like you have a slow leak. pffft!

OK I stand corrected on the Xover. Yikes!

I also found it here:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/architectural/axiom-algonquin/algonquin-build-quality

DeLasala also discusses how he'd like to see the Xover improved. Still an overall favorable review from what I see.


As for the M60 mids, I don't often play my M60s that loud so it's not a big deal to me. When I have party's I simply use bass management and have a friend bring along an extra sub for more bass. I may eventually pick up another EP500 sub so I can have stereo subs and always run my M60s crossed over.

Not what I got from that passage at all. 2nd order filters are still a minimum requirement from what I read. I know Harman doest 2nd order or higher on all their xovers, especially their metal cone woofers. Revel for example uses 4th order networks but lets not confuse an Axiom speaker with Revel. Revel cost a lot more and of course the performance will be much higher as a result...

Honestly, I don't see this article as an attack on Axiom--that's not an Axiom crossover pictured, and the only one I know of that uses a simple crossover is the M3. Unless I'm missing something obvious, this is a mountain out of a molehill.

Got my interest up on Revel speakers, so I decided to check them out. I don't like the look of plastic speakers, so to me that's a complete turn off. Their upper end towers look like plastic.

The center channel speakers look to be designed and priced similar to the VP160. But the Revel speaker seems to be lacking on the low end. Missing bass ports. I'd take the VP160 over the similarly priced Revel C12 center any day.

That review was before Gene and Ian parted advertising ways, now it seems OK to jump all over Axiom since they are no longer advertising with Audioholics, amazingly ever since then Axiom speakers are no longer a good product.

Ken, it's a bit hard to not interpret it as in part an attack. The circuit pictured isn't technically a crossover and isn't strictly pertinent to the subject. It is however the high-pass filter from the Algonquin(outdoor version of the M3)which was reviewed by Gene with considerable praise as to the sound quality(linked in a previous reply). A "crossover", as the term suggests, both rolls off a low frequency driver above a certain frequency and rolls off a high frequency driver below that frequency. The M3 has never had a crossover, using the capacitors shown to roll off the tweeter(the resistors also visible simply pad down the tweeter to match levels with the typically less sensitive mid-bass driver). The mid-bass then rolls off naturally.

This design has been used for over a decade in the M3 with fine audible results. Suggesting that this is an example of "incompetent" design indicates that the reality of the situation has been ignored for some reason.

Ah, it is? Well, then. I stand corrected.

I've had the opportunity to demo a pair of Revel Salon2's on multiple occasions and I can tell you they were light years beyond the M60s. Don't get me wrong, I still very much like my M60s and for 1/20th of the price, I am not complaining. Let's just put things into perspective.

I did purchase a pair of JBL towers of similar price to the M60s and compared them directly in my home before sending the JBLs back. Overall I felt the Axioms had more detail in the highs and a bit more low end bass while the JBLs had cleaner midrange. I listen to a lot of jazz and instrumentals more than music with vocals so I kept the Axioms. But I one day aspire to be a Revel owner.

I don't see the article as jumping on any manufacturer and there are some pretty big names behind the article besides DeSalla such as. Dr. Floyd Tool. Seems like a lot of innuendos here b/c of a pic used as an example but not mentioned by name.

Engineers design speakers to give as close to flat frequency response as possible.They labor over the design,spending endless hours in anechoic chambers and tweeking crossovers. And then we purchase them and put them in impossible untreated rooms that do them no justice. Adding room treatment will do more than any crossover could hope to imho. Why did gene test an outdoor speaker indoors,thats not where it belongs and will sound entirely different. Besides not ever speaker in a manufacturer's lineup is perfect.
Any speaker manufacturer can design a complicated crossover that will change its sound,but at what cost. Every manufacturer has to work within a design limit. Im sure if ian could build a no holds barred speaker it would be entirely different from what he is selling, and would cost one hell of a lot more. Nothing is free, and free shipping is not free ,it is built into the cost. I started my axiom journey with M2's so if i didnt like it would not cost much to return. Dollar to performance axioms speakers are a great value in this day and age imho. I liked them enough that i moved up to M80's which i definetly would not want to pay return shipping on. If the speakers i buy sound good to me why do i care what the crossover looks like as a consumer? I know these are not the best speakers money can buy,nor are they the worst and like anyone i have to live within my means.It simply amazes me how these speakers disappear when listing to them or watching a movies.
When someone like Gene writes/says the thing that he does, it puts his integrity at stake. Basically it seems he can be bought. Advertise with him and you get a favorable review. If thats his line in the sand i dont take any stock in anything the man has to say.
No one at axiom is telling any lies or misrepresenting the product,nor are people like us who enjoy their products, so much so we are willing to freely allow people we dont know into our homes to auditon them , free of charge. Gene needs to move on and we as axiomites can stop this trolling by not feeding them.

And the customer service is second to none , something no amount of money can buy. Ha Ha im rambling here,but im sure you get the point.I get defensive when someone attacks a product or company i truly believe in.

Just curious. What makes the Revel Salon2 sound better than the Axiom Audio M80's, other than the $20,000 price tag? They do seem to have more speaker surface area, perhaps.

If Revel can outperform M80's for 13.8 times the price, what could a redesigned Axiom hi-end speaker be able to accomplish at say, twice the M80 price?

Price does not always mean better but in the case of Revel, it does. It is a true full range speaker, high output/low compression, low resonance, has an accurate/smooth response with extremely well controlled, smooth off-axis behavior. This speaker is an engineering marvel and one of the best engineered speakers ever created and you pay for it, just like you would a luxury car.



The flat quasi-anechoic response on axis will not necessarily correlate with a flat perceived balance in-room because the latter also depends on the loudspeaker's dispersion; ie, on how that response changes to the sides and above and below that axis. The Salon2's horizontal dispersion is shown in fig.6. The loudspeaker's behavior is almost textbook perfect, with smooth, even off-axis behavior up to 8.5kHz or so, the frequency where the tweeter's waveguide begins to restrict its off-axis output. Due to this increasing directivity in the top audio octave, the Salon2 might sound a bit airless in large or overdamped rooms; the Tweeter Level control, set to one of its two boost positions, will help compensate for this. In the vertical plane (fig.7), the Revel's flat response is maintained over a wide (±10°) window centered on the tweeter axis, which is a good thing—the tweeter is a very high 49" above the floor.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements

Then, what makes the JM Labs Grand Utopia EM's almost 10 times the price better than the $20K Revel's? Axiom Audio has it's business plan and market place and perform quite well. I'm sure if they want they can design and build to the stratosphere and send their marketing collateral to Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and maybe Lawrence Ellison.

I was under the impression that the indoor and outdoor M3 are identical in design and parts. Only the cabinets are different where the outdoor version can withstand weather conditions.

Also looking closer at the review by Audioholics, I would still pick the Axiom over the Klipsch based on what was written.

Overall the review was positive and you can't expect all praises all the time. Heck I've got some things I don't like about my Macbook pro but I still luv it!

Salon2 has smaller production runs, extremely well crafted cabinets, high tech hand made drivers, well designed crossovers, all using exotic and no expense spared parts.

I know Axiom likes to compared there speakers to ultra high end stuff and say they sound similar, but the Audioholics shoot out with the M60s they didn't exactly blow the competiton away and it was a blind test and sighted at the end. They did hold there own in the test and IMO performed well against the competition. But to say that Axiom speakers perform with speaker costing 2-4X times the price is over reaching and a little optimistic. I also read that Axiom was alittle pissed at the results of that blind test with the M60s because it was done by them so the M60s could win. Yes Price doesn't mean better sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't.

Though I do not commonly particpate in these gearhead gauntlets, and I hate to agree with anyone hear [sic], ever, about anything, I am forced to go with JBall on this one. After listening to dozens of speakers, I went with the Axioms, because I could not afford the $8000.00 pr. of Revels I was so hot for.

Nothing I herd [sic] came closed [sic] enough to warrant the 4-6k price tag. Do I still wish I had them? You betcha! Am I at all disappointed in my M60's (if you haven't heared [sic] them in real wood veneer, your [sic] missing out)? Of course not! Frugality is not a side effect of stupidity. More stupidity is the side effect of stupidity.

This is a set-up in need of a mark. Please bite.

I don't believe any of us on this forum believe our Axioms are the end all be all to speakers. I have heard some magnificient Sonus Faber's at $15000 but I really couldn't couldn't justify paying that extra $13000 for them over my M80s nor the extra $3000 for a set of Paradigm S8's I had a chance to buy for a pretty good deal. We do feel our speakers are one of the best bang for the buck speakers out there.

Gene has been pretty good to not mention any names in these articles however it isn't hard to find those same pics he shows from previous articles/reviews and put 2 + 2 together. IMO it would have been better for him to build his own XO's to prove his points, they are after all cheap and easy to make..

Just to be clear (or decoding what I thought I said):

I was only talking about the $600 Revel C12 center speaker, compared to the VP160, that the VP160 "looks" like it would sound better.

I also believe that if Axiom designed a speaker that cost about 2 or 3 times as much as the M80, that it would probably sound better than an M80.

Also, I'm pretty sure that there would be a market for it, especially if they could give some of the upper priced brands a run for their money.

That was my 3 points.

I really wonder, if the guts of an M80 were transplanted in to the somewhat more elaborate cabinetry of a pair of top-of the-line Sonus Faber, Revel, B&W Series 800 or any other so-called floor-standing "high-end" speaker line, after listening to them without knowing the brand name, would a potential buyer be willing to pay $8000 "plus" a pair for them?

Or take cheap Sony Bookshelf speaker parts and put them in an Axiom cabinet and watch the Axiomites go crazy for them. Goes both ways.

Those expensive speakers also have cabinets that are better built and better braced, crossovers use better quality parts and are designed better, exterior of the cabinets have better finishes, higher end drivers. Less distortion, deeper extension, high SPLs ect.

Maybe something like this? (Source: Audio Circle - Bryston Loudspeaker thread):

Well, it seems your mind was made up a long time ago so I am not really sure why you are even part of the discussion?
By the way, based on your description of "alleged" superiority of all the items you listed, there is absolutely NOTHING based in fact that these so-called improvements relate to "superior" sound. I believe I have some knowledge in this area because I have been in the business for over 25 years!

Never said anything about those speakers sounding better. For someone in the business over 25 years you should know that, exotic cabinets, drivers made of exotic materials or multiple drivers, higher quality crossover components, exotic woods or laminates cost alot of money. When your working with a larger budget to build a speaker you can acheive great SPLs, low distortion and or deeper extension.

What I gather from your post was anyone who purchased Sonus Faber, Revel, B&W, Paradigm ect. Would have been better off if they just purchased Axiom?

Its Axiom knows best to hell with everyone else attitude on here.

I didn't get that from this conversation at all. Axiom customers frequent Axiom forums because they like the product for what it is. They know there are better speakers out there, but they are not willing, or able, to pay the exorbitant prices they are asking for them. Niche needed. Niche filled. No one is debunking the other products, except you.

Stop feeding the effin' troll, guys.....

I found it interesting today while visiting a Best Buy store. I used to want one of those really big stereo thini-ma-bobs, what every you call them. Kind of an overgrown boom box, with seperate bass speaker. Today I listened to the largest one that they had. It had lots of bass, for what it was, but that's about all it had. There was just enough midrange and trebble thrown in there that you could call it that, but I mean this thing sucked big time. So much for wanting some of that cheaper stuff that's on the market now.

You're right, its hopeless.

You may be right that fellow Axiom owners here are sensible enough to not think that there aren't better speakers to be had. But, about a year ago a fellow Axiom employee came on this forum declaring the M80s are "similarly good" to Revel Salon2s or any other speaker at any price. Axiom also published an article stating that beyond about $1500-2k/pair you're paying for cosmetic upgrades b/c a better sounding speaker can't be made. These kind of statements is what gets a rise out of folks. Perhaps they do it for the attention. Who knows.

Rest assured I still enjoy my Axioms but I recognize that if I had more budget, I could do better. The same goes with cars, houses, and pretty much most material items in life.

I think that for 1,500-5,000$ a pair you are mainly paying for cosmetic items... However, when you go up to the 20k$+ range, there is an audible difference to me. Specifically with Wilson's (I am a fan of wilson's. However, i don't know if i will ever own a pair). Wilson uses corian as a building material in the construction of their cabinets. From doing some reading, Corian is suppose to be one of the best materials available to build speaker cabinets out of. It is also suppose to be very expensive to work with, between the molding, and the machining.

On a side note, i have a pair of B&W CM1's with the small CM center in my bedroom, which are similar to the M2's as well as the vp100.. i paid about 3X as much for the B&W's as the price of the M2's.. And i will admit i bought them because i liked the way they look.. I have M60ti's in the living room, and there is not a drastic difference between the two sets of speakers. While the M60's will obviously play deeper, overall i think both brands sound similar.

But that is just me...

It's hard to see how corian, or any other material, would make them sound better. So far, everything I've heard is that pressed wood adds the least coloration, or resonance, to the sound.

I did read up on corian some. I see what your point is now. I just wonder if the extra trouble to use corian would make an audible difference.

I still think I'll end up with a secondary music system, so I'll want to try another brand, but it will have to be in the same price range as Axiom. I wish I could step up to some Revels or other highly-regarded speakers (which I haven't heard, by the way, so saying "step up" is presumptuous of me at this point), but I just don't foresee having that budget. Axiom has been good to me, and I will continue to upgrade my home theater setup with their speakers. Do I think they offer phenomenal sound right now? Yes. Do I think there's room for improvement? Yes, I do, but I also know I haven't even come close to getting the most out of them with my currently limited placement options and my amplifier situation. After I have more room to work with and the amount of power I used to have (or more), I want to dig in and see what I can accomplish with Room EQ Wizard and acoustical treatments. I already think my system sounds great, but I don't think I've really gotten everything I can out of my Axioms.

As a consumer, I want the best value I can get. I hope any company I buy from can see it from that perspective, too. Axiom strikes a great balance, but if increased parts quality IS something they find adds value upon further research, I do hope they'll incorporate it into perhaps a new product line like they'd been considering. One idea to keep costs lower on the new line is to only have a couple of finish options with enclosures made in China? I know that's probably not cool to suggest. I'm still curious what Axiom could do with enclosures made of something other than MDF. There's solid reasoning behind the use of MDF, but I'm still curious.

In any case, like I said, I love the way my Axioms sound, and I just don't see how you could argue their designs are bad with the experience I'm getting from them. That being said, I hope pride or fear never keeps Axiom from pushing ahead and offering more to their customers. There's greatness to be achieved here.

With the mergers and acquisitions that have taken place in the CE business in recent years along with China being the focal point and pretty much dominating the business, the waters have been quite muddied as to what one might call "high-end" and what isn't. I am sure many remember the Lexicon/Oppo fiasco of a couple of years ago. Wilson speakers are excellent, but, their premium models costing $20K and up are gigantic so size is part of that expense and many of us could not fit these in to our set-up anyway. As well, I don't think there is an electronic product out there, regardless of price, that doesn't have parts in it that are almost primarily manufactured in the Far East. Take in to account many companies that have moved their production there as well. Among several others, a case in point is the prestigious speaker manufacturer B&W already mentioned in this discussion. Although designed in the U.K., other than the top of the line 800 series, all their other models are built from the ground up in China. Some are still adamant about the idea of anything being built there in that they feel it is an inferior product. If that is the case(which I don't personally believe), B&W sure hasn't reflected this in their prices, so how does one really know?

The way I look at it and regardless of any naysayers, Axiom has been around for over thirty years so when it comes to their place in the speaker market and how they compare to the competition, they must be doing something right.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with the quality of Chinese-made products. I simply know a lot of people would prefer to not have it outsourced like that.

Everyone has their own perceptions and standards. I happen to love my M3's but I have a lot of friends who think I'm crazy for spending as much money as I did on my Axioms.

Most of my friends haven't spent anywhere near what I have on my M80s let alone the rest of the system, they think I am crazy too.

I'm surrounded by Bose enthousists.

The B&W's that i have are made in China. However, by looking at them you would never imagine they were made in China, the fit and finish are astounding. I think a lot of it is the quality controls that companies impose on their Chinese manufacturing partners. To a certain degree any product that is produced with tight QC controls will be more expensive. With that being said, i am not defending B&W's margin, i am sure that there is a decent amount of "snobbery" built into their bottom line.


Wilsons, are made in the USA. They use focal drivers, that are sourced and then taken apart and re-built at the facility in Utah. If you read about the history of the company and man behind Wilson it is quite interesting.

I am also of the opinion that Axiom is a VERY good value for what you buy. Also like almost everyone else Axiom has taken care of me. To the point that Casey makes, with the globalization of business today, almost every company today sources parts from China, or other parts of the globe with low wage rates. One of the few things that can set a company apart today is their customer service and that is a pretty big part of my buying decision.

Yes, Mark, once again you offer the definitive solution, and no one heeds your call.

I think the regs here simply feel freer to bash a "visiting" dork, that to do it to each other.

+1

Yup

A buddy of mine with more money than sense has a dedicated listening room for his two channel rig. Only one seat, just for him. He likes Scotch and cigars too, so he just sits there with his Scotch and cigar smoke listening to tunes. He recently moved from a set of Wilsons to a set of B&W's. I don't know the model numbers of each, but the Wilson's were ridiculously large, as well as ridiculous in appearance. They looked like that robot on lost in space back in the 70's. The B&W's look like a big assed giant eardrum in piano black. His electronics are a mix of things I do not recall but I know MacIntosh and Mark Levinson are in the mix, along with cables supported on little tri-pods that glow in the dark.

I was not all that impressed with either. Don't get me wrong, his set up sounds quite spectacular, but hell, I think mine does too! I just couldn't understand what the big deal was and why anyone in their right mind would spend that kind of money on a stereo system. Visions of a 430 Scuderia kept running through my head.

But that's what trips his trigger, and he's got the money, so I'm happy for him. I still give him crap about it whenever I can, but I don't think him a fool either, he just has different priorities than I do. He gives me crap about spending the money I do on wine....

I'll keep my Axioms and drive a Scud, other than spending that kind of money on high end audio gear any day......well, if I actually HAD that kind of money to blow that is.

I have always liked the idea of Bamboo Ply for enclosures in the higher end designs. We are starting to see some speakers made out of this material now as a substitute for MDF.

The former begets deterioration of the latter.

I think Brian has made the definitive statement here; all-inclusive, yet succinct. Can't imagine many of us feeling differently. Go, Cat!

That's what all poor people say.

One could make a case for ALL passive crossovers as being 2nd-class vs active crossovers. Even the pretty ones.

Yawn.

To the youngsters, that's old man speak for "whatever!"



And I agree.

Yup, I'm happy!

I thought I should address the comment by gtpsuper about the M60 5.25” mid-woofer breaking up at high output levels due to there being no high pass crossover used on this component. I don’t believe that gtpsuper has any first-hand experience with this, please accept my apologies if this summation is inaccurate, but rather I think he is regurgitating a comment originally made by Gene at Audioholics. Anyway, in light of this comment I ran a few measurements on the M60 5.25” mid-woofer (graphs below). As can be seen from the graphs there is no compression occurring nor is there any undue rise in harmonic distortion from this component taking the M60 all the way up to 110 dB through the frequency range in question. Going much above these levels would only start to strain the tweeter. The 5.25” mid-woofer is in its own very small enclosure inside the M60 cabinet. There is no need for a high pass crossover on this component: in fact it would be detrimental to the performance of an M60. The limiting factor to the maximum output of an M60 is not in any way related to the 5.25” mid-woofer. It is the single tweeter that will be the first component to show signs of strain as you near the maximum output of the M60. This is the case with most loudspeakers on the market: the single tweeter is the limiting factor.

For people to claim they can hear certain things based on a prior knowledge that goes against a particular theory they hold as true is not unusual: in fact, it is simply human. I don’t think that Gene was being malicious in his comment about being able to hear strain caused by the 5.25” woofer not having a high pass filter; he was just being human. This psychological phenomenon has been proven over and over again and is the reason for Double Blind Testing.

Since we are on the topic of Gene and Audioholics I would like to take a moment to discuss the bad blood that has been happening between Axiom and Audioholics as of late. Firstly, I am pretty sure I am the reason for the bad blood and for that I am regretful. Since the opening of the Audioholics store I have been a bit conflicted. On the one hand Gene and I have had a longstanding and generally fun -- ok very fun -- and respectful relationship as a magazine/manufacturer. On the other hand I was nagged by the fact that I didn’t really feel comfortable sending money and product to someone we were competing with in the marketplace. I sense that when this finally came to a head that I left Gene with the impression that the core problem was that I didn’t think he could be objective and unbiased in his dual role. This is not the case, it is not even relevant to my decision, but I do sense it ended up being the impression that was left, which raised his ire.

I learned a long time ago to never start making character judgements of people with a bag of acoustical measurements as your evidence. We must remember that no matter whether we are talking about competitors, magazine editors, or passionate consumers, that we are all trying to move forward the notion that great audio is a very fulfilling part of life. This is all good and as much as we may beat each other up from time to time over one nuance or another regarding product design or general theory regarding what we can or cannot hear, we are all in the pursuit of this passion together and we all would like to see more and more people enjoying a great sound experience. Hopefully Gene and I can find a more comfortable zone in the future. I know that I miss our chats, both the agreements and the disagreements, about audio over some good wine and good food.

At Axiom we are very focused on making amazing-sounding audio equipment and doing it without wasting our customers’ money. You could call it a ‘niche approach to the marketplace’, as CatBrat eloquently called it in his post. But it really means that our research is focused not just on what makes an improvement to our products - though that it is the main point of it - but also on what does not make an improvement, and should therefore not be included in our products. To put a finer point on this design goal, it means the “improvement” must be audible using our Double Blind Listening methodology. Lots of things are measurable but not audible; these features are put under intense review since their automatic inclusion based solely on the measurement would fall under the umbrella of wasting our customers’ money which goes against one of our most basic design goals. When it is audible but not measureable we endeavour to find out how to measure it. Then there are the measurable things that do not manifest themselves as one may initially think in the audibility domain and these can open new roads. All this continuously furthers the Axiom ethos of always producing and improving our products to have exceptionally high value, at least for those who value both their sound experience and their money.

To answer JBall while we are on the topic of the 5.25” mid-woofer in the M60: as explained above, it is not possible that this component is running out of steam as you turn up your amplifier with the M60s set to large. The more likely scenario is that your amplifier is going into clipping and therefore resetting the M60s to small is alleviating that clipping.

In case you are wondering about the sweeps getting choppy below 70 Hz (150 Hz for the lowest THD curve) it is because we are running up against the rising noise floor of the anechoic chamber below that frequency. The filters LMS utilizes when measuring THD do not allow for accurate resolution of the THD much below 1%. Since THD below 1% is not relevant for this purpose using LMS has the benefit of an easy-to-read presentation of the graphs.

awesome.

Wonderfully explained Ian. In my relatively long experience in the A/V business there is a segment of audiophiles or any interest or hobby for that matter, that just takes some of this all too seriously spending too much of their time looking for the most minute differences in anything to justify their opinion. When it comes to speakers and audio in particular, this group always seems to be more wrapped up in the statistics and graphs forgetting why they bought the stuff in the first place, to enjoy the music and watch the movie at its best possible without having to mortgage the house to get it.

Thanks for that, Ian.

Very nice post, Ian. Thank you. However, I'm not going to hold my breath that your eloquence, your success or your experience is going to be compelling for individuals who are hellbent on argument.



This - to me - is the jewel.

It is a joy to be part of the Axiom community.

Yeah, my jewels are measurable, but they don't elicit an audible response.

People giggle THAT quietly?

Nicely worded ian. Though i dont really need to be convinced per sey. A motto a like to live by " what other people think of me is none of my business". I do my thing, you do yours and audioholics can do theirs.

One trait that has always impressed me regarding Ian is that no matter the circumstances, no matter how harsh others may be due to a personal gripe or how heated a subject matter become he always presents himself with the utmost respect for all of those involved.

That is neat.

I agree with the SRV guy.

Thanks for addressing this Ian but I respectively disagree that my amp is running out of power. I have a 250wpc Anthem amp and 500wpc Crown amp at my disposal and the results are the same. As I drive the levels to very high SPL I notice the mid range driver moving in and out rapidly and the vocals don't sound as clean as they do at lower levels. Please don't take this the wrong way as I still like the speakers and this only happens when I entertain loud parties. I tried a pair of Genlec speakers at one of my party events and this didn't happen on those but I realize those are pro audio products with different design goals.

Again thanks for the response.

At what average SPL did you notice the problem? How big of a room are you running the M60's in? Do you have the amp on a dedicated circuit?

M80s needed

I didn't measure SPL but I can tell you it got progressively louder as more drinks were served. My party room is 50ft by 25ft and I have my system plugged into a dedicated outlet.

I will probably add another pair of M60s to the back of the room so I can have 4 speakers playing into the room where everyone dances. I got the amps, I just need more speakers and I don't want to mix/match.

M80s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dunno, better ask Wid what speakers he might recommend.

A 50' by 25' room and this guy is bitching because a pair of M60s can't handle insane loud levels?

Give me a break.

JBall,

The strains of a good party are the best test for an audio system. I like to test that way myself from time to time - as often as possible really. The 5.25” moving in and out rapidly is fine as this component is in fact a woofer and not a conventional mid-range driver. With the power you have in your amps and the levels you are going to want for a party in a room that size I would say you have reached the limits of the M60 in its entirety. The tweeter will also be going into heavy compression at these levels. Given the amplification you have available and the need for party detail you really should consider using the M80s. They would be a much better model for your application and a fine match with your existing M60s.

QFT.

Thanks Ian, I will consider that option. For what its worth, I originally discovered Axiom thru Audioholics which you guys sadly now seem to be in a bloodsport with.

Yes to be honest, I am a bit disappointed b/c the prior speakers I owned (Cerwin Vega D-9s) never had this problem. Of course at moderate levels I find the Axioms to be far more refined so I understand the tradeoff.

the first time i auditioned Cerwin Vega's was around 1984; they were big boom boxes and they still seem to be the same kind.

one has the choice:
Cerwin Vega's for the bang, or
Axiom M80's for music.

if i was you, with a room that size and loud levels, i would get M80's. they'll take twice the power of the M60's, this way, the music will sound much better.

it would be interesting to know what dB levels you get.

Ian, thanks for the test results and also for again making the point that "Lots of things are measurable but not audible".

The measurements are consistent with the mid-woofer rolling off below about 150Hz at 12dB/octave. As you indicate, it's in "its own very small enclosure inside the M60 cabinet". In effect it's a sealed speaker and as such would be expected to roll off at 12dB/octave below the tuned frequency even in the absence of a separate high-pass filter(which some critics appear not to have noticed). Without the Theile-Small parameters this can't be calculated precisely, but with a driver Fs of around 60Hz being sealed in a sub-enclosure of possibly 6"x6"x4" these are the sort of results that would be expected. Congratulations on a design which achieves fine audible results in the real world, while also being cost-effective.

Agreed man did the tweeters suck in my Vega's after I got me some Axioms. I do miss the red woofer surrounds though

Aren't you guys letting a difference of opinion (blown way out of proportion by the Internet Forums, the geek's People/Sun/Entertainment Tonight) create a rift in what seems to be a great friendship and that both parties are unhappy about losing.

See the big picture! Agree to disagree. Agree to not see eye to eye on measurements/business models/crossover design, but please don't lose the friendship that you seemed to cherish at one time.

I think that just about covers that (again).


I do have to agree with Agar.
Sounds like Ian laments the loss of a fun relationship (perhaps once termed a 'bromance'), but extending an olive branch can bring it back around again.
Pick up a phone and rekindle the love Ian, rekindle the love! (don't let Amie read this)

After coming across this recent, typically critical thread over there, if I was Ian, I can't imagine that I would be picking up the phone anytime soon:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/77536-axiom-subwoofer-blog.html

Tom
Comox, BC

Hey Tom. I agree with you. I used audioholics reviews (among others) to help me make a decision to purchase Axiom speakers. They gave really good reviews for Axiom. Now that there have been some differences, Axiom is no longer a good product. So it is obvious that the folks at audioholics are not objective with their reviews. To me they have lost all integrity.
I love my system and everyone that hears it is impressed.

I have been pretty consistent in my views for years about this in that the only reason I look at these publications from time to time is to see about what, if anything new might be coming forth in the marketplace. It's not only Audioholics, over the years I have read reviews about equipment that I myself, owned in which the reviewer was espousing some noticeable factual errors about the actual operation and features of the product itself! If you didn't own it you would never know. Like I said many times before, you take the reviews with a grain of salt, "they have advertisers", that is their bread and butter. If you don't advertise with them or worse still "pull" your advertising, you can see quite obviously what happens.

Their like talk show hosts, like minded people who have similar views will gravitate towards them like "flies to ....".

Honey?

Yes, dear?

You know I hate it when you leave the toilet seat up.

and I hate it when you leave it down.

It seems that the gang over there considers the lowly masses as simply 'laymen' & Amie's subwoofer blog was directed only to them; whereas they believe that they are audio 'legends in their own minds'.

Unfortunately this is a hobby that is rife with snobbery.....

Tom
Comox, BC

Sure - get it out of your system now, 'cause we all know that those kinds of comments ain't gonna fly at Casa de Tuttle.

You two should quit your bitchin' and use a commode!

Casey I agree. After discovering Axiom from the Audioholics reviews I also got a lot of good info here. So now if I have any questions this is where I go first. I know as Axiom owners we may have a little bias about our speakers, but I do think there is a lot of valuable experience here.

Do the other speaker manufacturer's have a forum, similar to this one? I've not heard that they did. I would also imagine that if they did, the owners of those particular speakers would have a bias towards the ones that they own, just the same.

I am sure there are others and practically speaking, you are totally correct in that the individual forums, such as this one, are going to be frequented by those that like the brand and of course, for the most part, own it. As I see it, the problem that has all too common existed on AVS is that nowhere else have I seen the viciousness and hatchet jobs along with a confrontational attitude towards other brands that the vast majority of time, the person doing the criticism, strangely enough, has probably never owned or even heard! It seems to attract a certain culture that, rather than provide meaningful discourse and information, prefers the above and I am not exactly sure why other than the fact that it seems the administrators obviously wish to have it that way.

AVS, the Jerry Springer of audio forums?

There's the Emotiva forums. They're actually pretty good from what little I've seen. I keep being tempted, then reminding myself I mostly use the system to watch TV shows and occasionally listen to music around 70dB...

Polk has forums as well.

I liken this place to a nice quiet pub while AVS is a large, raucous dance club.

AVS to me seems more like the big battle scene in Gangs of New York

LOL. I just watched that movie again this week. Seems the whole town was blown up after the navy kicked in.

You dare ask a question, turns into an all out concerto!

Ascend has their own forum and there is Chase Home Theater, not to mention we all know av123 used to have their own.

Well Axiom has the SoundStage product of the year award. Pretty impressive from where im standing(sitting? ) , anyway congrats to ian and everyone at axiom.

This is really too bad. Ian is still being respectful and diplomatic. Gene is obviously acting like a child, because is upset about the conflict between the two of them.

Before the falling out, Gene and the other reviewers gave just about all of the Axiom products, very positive reviews. There was some constructive criticism for improvement, but nothing is perfect. Now he comes off as bad as some of the other trolls out there, just bashing Axiom whenever the chance arises. I still love my Axiom speakers, and think that they are a great value for the money. I also wish with the way that Gene is acting I could get away from going to there website altogether. But, I can't. What they are doing with subwoofer reviews is groundbreaking, comparing to other professional review sites and in print magazines. Looking at those reviews in comparsion now, seem almost like a joke Audioholics is measuring and testing the sub to truly see what the limits are in terms of output, staying within a tolerable distortion range. Also, they have come up with a way of determining what size room the sub will play well in. This in addition to completely disassembling the sub, discussing the build quality and discussing how well it integrates with the other speakers and how it sounds, as well. Also, we'll be able to see in a nice spreadsheet how all of the subs that they reviewed this way will compare. I realize that Gene does seem to be biased, so the reviews have to be taken with a grain of salt. But, the testing information doesn't lie. The numbers are what they are. Even still, if I were in Axiom's position I definitely wouldn't be sending things for review over at Audioholics anymore. They definitely have an axe to grind.

In light of all of this, I will definitely not be frequenting the Audioholics forums anymore. But, the Axiom forums are still a great community of people trying to help out others learn more about av gear, Axiom or otherwise. I still will be reading the reviews at Audioholics, but mostly just for the measurements (especially on the subs), as the things other than the numbers may not really be unbiased.

Since this thread won't die, I'll throw in another 2 pence...

1. In the thread that exlabdriver linked to, Gene rather firmly corrected gtsuper when he stated that Axiom subs are not crap. Bias and breakups aside, Gene has not entirely lost his head.

2. In that same thread, several long time posters very tactfully pointed out that Axioms products are good.

3. I am a happy, loyal Axiom owner, but I come here because of the people that hang out on this board.

4. I agree that Gene still seems upset and there is some bias, but I still go to audioholics because some of the stuff the publish is good and some of it interests me.

I am left scratching my head that we seem to be turning into a 'your with me or against me' culture. ::shrugs:: maybe that is basic human nature and we are just returning to normal behavior.

This thread should really die.

It did, just.........wait for it.........wait for it.......


.....NOW!

Dead horse for supper?

Don't murder my threads!

Gene clearly expresses his feelings in what has transpired recently with this following statement. And, I for one...give him a lot of credit in making this plea...


http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/857590-post208.html

Hopefully not too late.

I applaude Gene for his comments found in that link.

We will see if anything changes...

me likes the drama but all TV shows must have their season finale Heck its why I like AVS so much, the show never ends I reckon.

Wonderful, this is indeed good news...

Tom
Comox, BC