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Posted By: theskins Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 03:02 AM
I am looking to upgrade my current center speaker vp 150 v2 ( never been real happy with this one)to a vp 180
There is a v3 vp180 locally on kijiji for $600 like new(as described) can probably get for a little less ......There is one in B stock now for $698 V4 scratch and dent or could go for factory outlet as well for a couple of hundred more....
The rest of my current front soundstage consists of 2 M80 TI's which I still love
What would be a better match to the TI's V3 or V4 ?
Posted By: bridgman Re: Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 05:16 AM
I'm running M60ti mains with a VP180v3 center and the match is really good.

It's hard to be sure, but based on listening reports from others I get the impression that if anything the v3 is probably a bit closer to your ti's than the v4. I'm sure either would be fine but I would be looking at the v3 if both were available.
Posted By: brwsaw Re: Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 03:20 PM
Go with the V4.
Posted By: MatManhasgone Re: Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 04:23 PM
if you buy the v3 off kijiji then anything is wrong it's your dime to get it fixed. Spend your $100 more and your getting a certified unit from Axiom with their 2 years standing behind it.
Posted By: nickbuol Re: Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 06:36 PM
I was just at Axiom 2 days ago. It is amazing how closely they examine things and any blemish and it doesn't go out as "regular" stock. There are stories all over here (mine included) about "scratch and dent" from Axiom and people not noticing anything wrong. On another related note, those are cosmetic blemishes (if you even see them) only, nothing performance wise.

I would go with something direct from Axiom unless you know and/or trust the seller

Oh, and you will love the jump from the 150 to the 180. I made that jump and I am glad that I did.
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 06:53 PM
I too also inquired about the Centre VP180. He won't go lower than $550. He is in Windsor but, the speaker is in Halifax. He also states it is real wood Cherry, however. looking at the pics closer it looks like Boston Cherry vinyl.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 02/26/15 08:21 PM
I said kijiji ...I meant Canuck audiomart
Yes I too noticed the pics and questioned him on real wood...he said he's not sure and can't tell.....so yeah I would say vinyl....and he is the second owner as well......
How is the HK 3490?
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 02/27/15 02:26 AM
yes, I never caught that but it was on Canuck Audio ...
looks in good shape though.
my HK it is OK I got it to stop me from buying more speakers but just picked up a Marantz. I am looking at getting a Anthem MRX someday wink
I liked the dual sub out puts
have the HK and two Axiom M2 ( i think Ti ) for sale now on kijiji.
Im just down the highway from you in Bridgewater wink
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 02/27/15 02:40 PM
Oh Crap let me re-word this mess , to a nicer mess ....
I never caught that but, it was on Canuck Audio I saw it too ...
It looks in good shape though and said hardly used and he just bought it as a substitute until the Brystons arrive. Speaker of which have you been to Glubes Sound Studio and listen to those Bryston's .....awesome ....
My HK 3490 is a good reciever,I liked the dual sub outputs. I got it to stop me from buying more speakers for a while but, just picked up a Marantz 7.1 kinda miss the surround sound. That's why I was looking at the VP180
I am looking at getting a Anthem MRX someday again
I have the HK and two Axiom M2 ( i think there Ti ) for sale now on kijiji and or the Marantz
Im just down the highway from you in Bridgewater
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/01/15 06:54 PM
Haven't been to Glubes in years, may take a trip in one of these days....
Friend of mine from out of town bought the HK 3490 last year as well for his home office and didn't say he liked or disliked it....just said it was different from his older HK 2 channel amp ( not sure of model but it was about 10 plus years ago he bought it).....I was just curious what you thought of it
Is it powering your 80's?
my Bday is in April and my wife has offered to pay for the 180 ( sweet)
I think I may buy new from axiom
$550 for the used one is a little high for my liking ($400-$450 would be good/fair)...
What do you think of the M2's?
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/02/15 02:05 AM
HK is ok, not overly powerful. I bought a Anthem MCA50 last week and made a big difference.
but overall it is good for the price.
Yes, if it was real wood then probably is reasonable, but that is Boston vinyl. And for $150 more can get a 5 yr warranty at Axiom. I think that's the better deal.
The M2's are older haven't really used them
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/02/15 03:35 AM
If your getting back into surround ,I'll have a vp150 next month if your interested ....if so maybe we can work out a trade of some sort?
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/02/15 03:35 PM
I have to bring it to the city tomorrow night as someone wants to check it out. If they don't buy it which not sure he really does, sure we can work something out. The VP will get me by
until I decide what I am going to do for a speaker setup in the movie room.
I am just still not convinced that these M80's are what I need for movies in a room 11.5x17x8.
I think if I am having them set to small and crossing over at 60hrz I may as well go with Bookshlefs and dual or quad subs.
Music wise well I like the M80's but I am 90% movies and 10% music
Posted By: bridgman Re: Vp 180 center - 03/02/15 09:21 PM
It's hard to say... I have M60 mains in the HT and occasionally swap in M2's when doing demos. I'm always amazed how good the system sounds with M2 mains and a couple of big subwoofers, but pretty much everyone other than me says there's no comparison between the two and that the M60's sound much much better. I set the cross over to 100 Hz when switching between M60 and M2 so guessing the difference is distortion level rather than frequency response.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 12:38 AM
How long have you had the M80's? I'm about 60% movies/gaming & 40% music (2.1 and 5.1) and love the M80's........but with only 10% music as you said and your room size I would think M22's as fronts with a couple nice subs might be nice as well.....but then what do u do with the 80's?... Trade up program at axiom.....what version are they?
If your not sure if you want to build around the 80's as your front soundstage in your home theatre, your more than welcome some weekend to demo my theatre..which is still a work in progress
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 01:54 AM
They are ver.3 in HG Cherry.
I have had them for about year half.
Only thing I can trade up to is M80 V4 or HP or the M100 etc.
I've owned the M22 and HK 750's and they were loud enough for that size room.
I will probably end up keeping the M80's for listening to music and the HK 3490 just need fond a MCA20 now.

Bridgman
Not sure about the distortion. That would have to be quite overly comfortable loud. If I had say the M22 and two or three EP500 ,do you really think they would distort ?
I am running a MCA50 as a three channel ext. amp
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 10:15 AM
[quote=TroyD]They are ver.3 in HG Cherry.
I have had them for about year half.
Only thing I can trade up to is M80 V4 or HP or the M100 etc.
I've owned the M22 and HK 750's and they were loud enough for that size room

I now realize that's why it's called trade up ( not down).......
Have you heard QS surrounds yet?
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 04:39 PM
Originally Posted By: TroyD
They are ver.3 in HG Cherry.
I have had them for about year half.
Only thing I can trade up to is M80 V4 or HP or the M100 etc.
I've owned the M22 and HK 750's and they were loud enough for that size room.
I will probably end up keeping the M80's for listening to music and the HK 3490 just need fond a MCA20 now.

Bridgman
Not sure about the distortion. That would have to be quite overly comfortable loud. If I had say the M22 and two or three EP500 ,do you really think they would distort ?
I am running a MCA50 as a three channel ext. amp


That should be " I need to find a MCA20
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 04:41 PM
Yes, I use to own the QS8 Ver. 1 years ago.

Like them and probably going to get them for my rears again.
Posted By: bridgman Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: TroyD
Bridgman
Not sure about the distortion. That would have to be quite overly comfortable loud. If I had say the M22 and two or three EP500 ,do you really think they would distort ?
I am running a MCA50 as a three channel ext. amp

It all depends on listening levels. In fairness to the M2s, the test video we were using was the helicopter crash scene from the first Matrix movie (the equivalent of Darla Tap for mains & center channel) at "show off the system" levels, so yeah it's likely there was some distortion on the M2s. Also M22s will go a bit louder than M2s without distorting.
Posted By: exlabdriver Re: Vp 180 center - 03/03/15 07:07 PM
I use a set of M22V4s (with a pair of EP800V3s, VP160V3 & QS8V4s) for my HT as I believe that the 22s are more suited for the tremendous dynamic range of movie soundtracks.

My M2V3s (each with its own EP400V3) are used in an audio only 2CH Stereo system as they are wonderfully suited for music. Quite simply, they sound sweet in this role...

TAM
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/05/15 10:15 PM
Just ordered the VP 180 b-stock........BIG thanks to everyone for their input
Posted By: brwsaw Re: Vp 180 center - 03/05/15 10:27 PM
To B or not to B....
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/05/15 11:21 PM
Que sera sera
Posted By: Gr8_White_North Re: Vp 180 center - 03/06/15 01:13 AM
I am sure you will B happy.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/06/15 11:19 PM
Yeah.......may B........
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/12/15 09:07 PM
My VP 180 is here..........:-)
Posted By: Gr8_White_North Re: Vp 180 center - 03/13/15 01:08 AM
B utiful
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/14/15 01:52 PM
Well I guess I just missed out on the extra 10% off B Stock ........
But did recieve great news this morning......... THE INLAWS ARE NOT COMING TO MY HOUSE TO STAY FOR WEEKEND :-)
( thanks to the storm we may get tonight)..........which is better news than " The STORM bypassing us"'....
This will give me time with the 180 this weekend ....
So far I have noticed ,front soundstage seems to be seamless.....(no issue with VP 180 v4 with my M80 TI's ....... ) have not run Audyssey yet just set off for now ( set with RS SPL meter) Xovers set at 80z
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/18/15 04:10 PM
Question for those who have upgraded from vp150 to VP 180, or decided to send the 180 back....
What kind of difference did it make,compared to the 150?
What demo material did you use to determine the 180 was a better fit?
I have a speaker switch (A/B) hooked up and tried the 150 on top of the 180 and also below it and very little difference( to my ears ,in my room)
Have tried BD movies,concerts,SACD's and regular cd's and difference is hard to find and when I do it is very subtle......sometimes even favoring the 150???
I have this set up in front of 106" FF screen with acoustical dampening completely surrounding screen on top of audio rack using VP 180 V4 vs vp150 millennia,M80 TI fronts ( only have about 4 hrs of demo time in ,over about a week)
Not sure how to post pics of setup
Posted By: exlabdriver Re: Vp 180 center - 03/18/15 04:50 PM
If you set your XOver at 80 Hz, there probably will be little perceptible difference in the sound as you are strangling the lower extension of the 180.

My Audyssey 'hears' my VP160 at 40 Hz & I expect that the VP180 would be similar or even lower.

I've tried mine at both 40 Hz & 60 Hz & settled at 60 Hz. It gives a 'fuller' sound to the all important CC without exaggerating male voices that can result in 'chestiness' if not done correctly in the speaker design.

Try lowering your XOver & you will probably hear a pleasant difference...

TAM
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/18/15 07:44 PM
Tam Thanks for the input...haven't tried 40 hz yet but have the center crossed at 60hz( forgot mention I change 2 days ago) and the 80's at 60 as well
Have turned off surrounds and front heights to concentrate on main front soundstage and as I said very little difference ( subtle)some of the main differences seem to be in bass heavy soundtracks but still very subtle.......snow day here today ,so I will demo all day....
Anyone have any suggestions for demo material.....
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Vp 180 center - 03/18/15 08:48 PM
I'm not sure what to tell you, other than my upgrade from a 150 to a 160 was what I consider a substantial improvement.

It sounds to me like something is wrong somewhere.
Posted By: MatManhasgone Re: Vp 180 center - 03/18/15 08:55 PM
What sort of improvement were you looking for? I went from a M80 to the LFR1100 and I will fully admit that for the price increase it was really worth the extra money.

Perhaps you have reached your point of diminishing returns. The point where the sound improvement from the VP180 does not meet the price increase to move up from your current VP150.

The VP180 speaker is a different design and will give you a lower frequency range down to around the 35-40hz, where the VP150 is really only taking you down to 60hz.

There are some movies that have been encoded to take advantage of the lower frequencies on the center channel. I bought the VP180 as I got it at a good deal though the 'b' stock. Yet looking at the family of curves, the VP160 is a far better speaker.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/19/15 10:30 AM
Thanks Mark ...
Yes there could be something wrong( all drivers are working), could be crossover or cabinet issue???
Or maybe these speakers are more similar than different despite their appearance
At least in my room with my ears???
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/19/15 10:45 AM
Thanks Matt
I guess I was looking for a better/seamless front soundstage.....which I may not obtain with any horizontal center.
Many on this forum have reported switching from 150 to the 180 was a huge upgrade,
In my room with my ears I am not seeing much of an upgrade( if any at all),sometimes depending on material and which seat I'm in,the 150 sounds a bit better( more clear)sometimes the 180 trumps the 150 depending on content( more laid back ,not as forward as the 150).........
But in all honesty about 90%( or more) of the content I throw at these( a good 5 hrs yesterday alone) they sound more similar ,than different.
Thanks guys and still would like to hear from others......
Posted By: exlabdriver Re: Vp 180 center - 03/19/15 04:11 PM
Taking this over to AVS may get you more than you bargained for & not in a good way.

Maybe a VP160 would be a better choice due to it's more 'conventional' driver placement on the front baffle. Mine is superb & quite a step up from my previous VP100...

TAM
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/19/15 05:39 PM
Thanks for "Heads Up" Tam
There is a lot of good guys over at AVS and I value some of their input as well...( not just about my center dilemma ,but all audio/ video Q's)
But there are a few guys also that have a real hate on for Axiom.......unhealthy hate really.
They may have some real issues outside of audio? If they need to use axiom as their Couch .........so be it!
I will continue to ignore their input as usual.......
I now moving 180 around on top of audio rack ( in closer to wall, and then away to see if I get a better sound( I still play with m 80's occasionally as well moving in/ out and adjusting toe in)
Forgot to add I would have to trim the height of my audio cabinet for the 160......
Already did this once as I moved from 92" to 106" screen.......maybe would consider trying 160 later on.
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 03/19/15 10:10 PM
It should have been a marked improvement. I'm too lazy to look back, but did you:

Rerun auto eq etc.
Move the speaker out from wall if possible.
Check channel level compared to vp150

Of note is the speaker is a 4 ohm nominal load vs 8 for the 150. Not quite sure if you are using an auto eq, and a setting like all channel flat, if so you are likely throwing out amp headroom and squahing current output. I would try direct mode vs eq and see if there is a difference. As Mark sais, something sounds borked.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/19/15 11:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
It should have been a marked improvement. I'm too lazy to look back, but did you:

Rerun auto eq etc.
Move the speaker out from wall if possible.
Check channel level compared to vp150

Of note is the speaker is a 4 ohm nominal load vs 8 for the 150. Not quite sure if you are using an auto eq, and a setting like all channel flat, if so you are likely throwing out amp headroom and squahing current output. I would try direct mode vs eq and see if there is a difference. As Mark sais, something sounds borked.

Thanks for your input
I have Audyssey turned off on denon 991( same as 3311) 150 is 6 ohm and doing test through an A/B speaker switch and not adjusting DB level thru this test ??? Maybe a problem.....
I have used RS SPL meter to set 180 with rest of speakers ...before testing...
Speaker back ( ported) 12" -14" from front wall( would think this is plenty)
Posted By: Gr8_White_North Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 02:54 AM
What sort of listening level do you typically play your movies at. I consider normal listening to be around 50db and I watch my movies around 75db to 80db. At levels I watch regular TV at I doubt you would notice a difference, but watching a bluray with lossless audio I would think there would be a noticeable difference given the reliance on the center channel of most current movies. Are you feeding the receiver bitstream or lpcm.
Posted By: CV Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 04:23 AM
Originally Posted By: theskins
doing test through an A/B speaker switch and not adjusting DB level thru this test ??? Maybe a problem.....
I have used RS SPL meter to set 180 with rest of speakers ...before testing...


Level-matched to the rest of the speakers is good, but if you can't level-match the 180 and the 150, it's not going to be a fair comparison.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 09:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Socketman
What sort of listening level do you typically play your movies at. I consider normal listening to be around 50db and I watch my movies around 75db to 80db. At levels I watch regular TV at I doubt you would notice a difference, but watching a bluray with lossless audio I would think there would be a noticeable difference given the reliance on the center channel of most current movies. Are you feeding the receiver bitstream or lpcm.

Can't remember DB level but blu Rays on Denon amp at volume usually set at -15
( reference 0)
I believe lpcm ( lossless)
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 09:33 AM
Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: theskins
doing test through an A/B speaker switch and not adjusting DB level thru this test ??? Maybe a problem.....
I have used RS SPL meter to set 180 with rest of speakers ...before testing...


Level-matched to the rest of the speakers is good, but if you can't level-match the 180 and the 150, it's not going to be a fair comparison.

Good point....I will use RS meter to test each center
Just a thought ........with the 180 being 4 ohms and the 150 6 ohms
Should the 180 be louder if sent same amplification?
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 05:06 PM
Originally Posted By: theskins
Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: theskins
doing test through an A/B speaker switch and not adjusting DB level thru this test ??? Maybe a problem.....
I have used RS SPL meter to set 180 with rest of speakers ...before testing...


Level-matched to the rest of the speakers is good, but if you can't level-match the 180 and the 150, it's not going to be a fair comparison.

Good point....I will use RS meter to test each center
Just a thought ........with the 180 being 4 ohms and the 150 6 ohms
Should the 180 be louder if sent same amplification?


I think the real difference would be in the speakers sensitivity levels. If the VP180 is 93db and the VP150 was 90db then I guess the VP180 would be double the volume level. They said every 3bd is double the volume. However, that said they say to get dbl the volume you need twice the wattage. So, if the 180 is 4ohms and the 150 6 ohms then the wattage is not going to double. The 180 should be a tad louder. One would think
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 05:12 PM
Just curious, are you on the Axiom's person to audition list. If so I'd love to hear that VP180/150 difference.
I'd bring in my v3 180's but don't think I can get them in the car as a pair.
But, then again a friend in Dartmouth wants to hear them also so may try to someday.

PS did you get enough snow Tuesday ????4 hrs shovelling because my son thought he could snowblow the previous storms wet heavey snow and burnt out the belt. I got a walkway from front door to my driveway with 6ft walls of friggin snow ;)Bottom of driveway the sides are 7 ft high and the two lane road is one way and only passible if one pulls into someones driveway to let the other car go by
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/20/15 10:42 PM
Originally Posted By: TroyD
Just curious, are you on the Axiom's person to audition list. If so I'd love to hear that VP180/150 difference.
I'd bring in my v3 180's but don't think I can get them in the car as a pair.
But, then again a friend in Dartmouth wants to hear them also so may try to someday.

PS did you get enough snow Tuesday ????4 hrs shovelling because my son thought he could snowblow the previous storms wet heavey snow and burnt out the belt. I got a walkway from front door to my driveway with 6ft walls of friggin snow ;)Bottom of driveway the sides are 7 ft high and the two lane road is one way and only passible if one pulls into someones driveway to let the other car go by
yes way too much snow
Not on audition list, but your welcome to come in for a Demo( would love to hear your opinion first hand as well)
On emergency heating call this weekend....maybe over next couple of weekends we can pick a saturaday or Sunday .......I may end up sending 180 back (30 days) about 9 days in now......but still have a lot of demo time before I make up my mind....Really I was expecting 180 to be a huge difference from the 150.........so far disappointment...
But They both sound good ......
Would be nice also if you could fit 80's into car.....I would love to hear the TI's vs the V3

I'm in Tantallon/Timberlea area
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/21/15 01:13 AM
Tantallon cool not too far 45 min drive.
yup maybe I will bring the MCA50 bet that would make a difference. I think your Denon has pre outs
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/21/15 01:27 PM
No pre outs on the 991.......shitty
Posted By: alan Re: Vp 180 center - 03/21/15 02:39 PM
"I think the real difference would be in the speakers sensitivity levels. If the VP180 is 93db and the VP150 was 90db then I guess the VP180 would be double the volume level. They said every 3bd is double the volume. However, that said they say to get dbl the volume you need twice the wattage. So, if the 180 is 4ohms and the 150 6 ohms then the wattage is not going to double. The 180 should be a tad louder."

Hi TroyD,

You are misunderstanding the decibel and its relationship to power in watts and perceived loudness level. It's very confusing to newcomers and longtime enthusiasts alike. A 3-dB difference in sensitivity would be perceived as only "slightly louder", and would require twice as much power.

To actually double the perceived loudness of a speaker requires ten times as much power, not twice as much. It's a logarithmic relationship.

If you double the power in watts going to a speaker, the loudness of the speaker to our ears increases by only 3 dB, or "slightly louder."

A 1-dB difference is the smallest step or change in loudness that humans can detect. Smaller differences in loudness may not be detectable, but in listening tests, most people hear the ever-so-slightly louder speaker as sounding "better," which is why in A/B speaker tests between two speakers, the loudness levels must be matched to a fraction of a decibel.

Incidentally, skins, when I did careful double-blind tests at Axiom of the prototype vp180 center to the vp150, I found the vp180 to be dramatically better and less coloured than the vp150. I praised the vp180 center as sounding essentially as good as what turned out to be the M80v3. So I suspect that the slight level differences in your comparisons at home are leading you to incorrect conclusions.

Regards,
Alan
Posted By: brwsaw Re: Vp 180 center - 03/21/15 06:39 PM
Have you tried changing the polarity of the 180? I know it seems odd and it's pretty likely it's wired correctly but I've seen (heard) it needing to be done on the M80. This would be my next step...It's frustrating because you know it's already right but when you hear it (if I'm right) you'll know.
Posted By: casey01 Re: Vp 180 center - 03/21/15 09:55 PM
Originally Posted By: alan
"I think the real difference would be in the speakers sensitivity levels. If the VP180 is 93db and the VP150 was 90db then I guess the VP180 would be double the volume level. They said every 3bd is double the volume. However, that said they say to get dbl the volume you need twice the wattage. So, if the 180 is 4ohms and the 150 6 ohms then the wattage is not going to double. The 180 should be a tad louder."

Hi TroyD,

You are misunderstanding the decibel and its relationship to power in watts and perceived loudness level. It's very confusing to newcomers and longtime enthusiasts alike. A 3-dB difference in sensitivity would be perceived as only "slightly louder", and would require twice as much power.

To actually double the perceived loudness of a speaker requires ten times as much power, not twice as much. It's a logarithmic relationship.

If you double the power in watts going to a speaker, the loudness of the speaker to our ears increases by only 3 dB, or "slightly louder."

A 1-dB difference is the smallest step or change in loudness that humans can detect. Smaller differences in loudness may not be detectable, but in listening tests, most people hear the ever-so-slightly louder speaker as sounding "better," which is why in A/B speaker tests between two speakers, the loudness levels must be matched to a fraction of a decibel.

Incidentally, skins, when I did careful double-blind tests at Axiom of the prototype vp180 center to the vp150, I found the vp180 to be dramatically better and less coloured than the vp150. I praised the vp180 center as sounding essentially as good as what turned out to be the M80v3. So I suspect that the slight level differences in your comparisons at home are leading you to incorrect conclusions.

Regards,
Alan


Alan, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the VP180 as compared to the 150. Prior to purchasing my custom finish VP180, I moved from the 150 to when they first were introduced, a VP160 and the difference then was substantial. When it comes to speakers, I have always subscribed to the idea that one cannot defy the laws of physics so when you have a speaker which has a substantially larger cabinet with larger drivers you are just going to hear a substantially "larger" sound. As with a number of smaller center channel speakers in various price ranges that I have incorporated in to my systems over the years, although a good speaker, the VP150 falls in to that same category of small center channels with a small cabinet and somewhat limited frequency range with emphasis in that mid-range which gives voices, in particular, a somewhat more unnatural "boxy" type sound. From my own experiences, it is just more inherent and characteristic of a speaker of that size regardless of price.

I would suggest to "SKINS" leave the VP180 connected for awhile listening to various material especially movies at relatively high volume levels and then after a few days, re-connect the VP150. Once the ears get used to the sound, it is then, I believe, the difference will be substantially more noticeable.
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 03/22/15 11:51 AM
Thanks Alan .... yes, it can be confusing. Alto of this is confusing wink
I think I hear much then same way as SKINS does.

Here's what I get from this all is that, if we're doing this audessy, or manually setup. If we are setting our Mains and centres to small and cross overs at 80hz, then most of the 80hz and below is going to the subs. SO, if the VP150 sensitivity is down to 80hz, really what are you guys hearing below 80hz in the centre's ? given, that no sound below 80hz is even going that way. What I get from everyone is that the larger boxes are better for bottom end sound. Does, the size of the cabinet effect much of the sound between 100hz - 2k ?
The vp150 seems pretty well flat, there using the exact same drivers the vp180 is using.
I guess the only difference would be the croosover point at 150hz, in that the vp180 would be using the 6.5" drivers and most likely this is where most of the difference lies
Posted By: casey01 Re: Vp 180 center - 03/22/15 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: TroyD
Thanks Alan .... yes, it can be confusing. Alto of this is confusing wink
I think I hear much then same way as SKINS does.

Here's what I get from this all is that, if we're doing this audessy, or manually setup. If we are setting our Mains and centres to small and cross overs at 80hz, then most of the 80hz and below is going to the subs. SO, if the VP150 sensitivity is down to 80hz, really what are you guys hearing below 80hz in the centre's ? given, that no sound below 80hz is even going that way. What I get from everyone is that the larger boxes are better for bottom end sound. Does, the size of the cabinet effect much of the sound between 100hz - 2k ?
The vp150 seems pretty well flat, there using the exact same drivers the vp180 is using.
I guess the only difference would be the croosover point at 150hz, in that the vp180 would be using the 6.5" drivers and most likely this is where most of the difference lies


Well, it is important to remember that with any crossover setting(in this case the example of 80HZ, 150HZ would be too high), it is not a sudden cut below that frequency but a gradual roll-off so when available, especially at higher volumes, one could still hear those frequencies below 80HZ with the 180. Also, given the size of the cabinet itself and all that extra air moving around, other than the tweeter, it will affect the performance of all the other speakers and ultimately their frequency response and output. One good experiment to try is with the VP180 or even the 160, listen to a male human voice that is reasonably deep first with the crossover on and then off. Even with only a human voice, it will be subtle, but with the crossover disengaged and the speaker in "full range" mode, you will hear a slight further bass extension of that voice. Ultimately, from my own experience, especially experimenting with many types and sizes of speakers, no matter the set-up, a full range speaker like the VP180 is going to give you a more "natural" type sound across the entire frequency range. Because of space limitations, small centers have always been a design compromise that have the habit of providing an unusual and unnatural extra bump, especially in the 300-500HZ range, which primarily because of their cabinet and driver size limitations is almost impossible to smooth out. The sound of the VP150 I owned also was much more affected by placement than the larger 180.

I, personally, have my VP180 set to a 60HZ crossover which diverts the deepest bass to the subs, yet, with the gradual roll off below that setting, it still gives me pretty much the entire frequency range capabilities of the speaker.

Posted By: Gr8_White_North Re: Vp 180 center - 03/22/15 06:27 PM
On the VP150 the crossover is 2.7hz and the 3 speakers take care of everything down to 80hz if that's is where you set the crossover . The VP180 allows the bigger drivers to handle 150hz down to the 80hz cross over. From my own measuring, even with 80hz crossover their is still plenty of output below 80hz since the crossover is gradual and room gain is also added. From looking at frequency charts there is a lot going on in the 150hz down region including male voices. I have never heard a VP 150 but I do have VP100 and it is thin sounding compared to my VP180 clone I built. I suggest that skins watch the movie Whiplash with the VP180 and then the VP 150 then decide. I am really surprised that skins is not hearing a difference, maybe when you get together with him Troy we can all get a better understanding.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/22/15 09:56 PM
Originally Posted By: alan
"I think the real difference would be in the speakers sensitivity levels. If the VP180 is 93db and the VP150 was 90db then I guess the VP180 would be double the volume level. They said every 3bd is double the volume. However, that said they say to get dbl the volume you need twice the wattage. So, if the 180 is 4ohms and the 150 6 ohms then the wattage is not going to double. The 180 should be a tad louder."

Hi TroyD,

You are misunderstanding the decibel and its relationship to power in watts and perceived loudness level. It's very confusing to newcomers and longtime enthusiasts alike. A 3-dB difference in sensitivity would be perceived as only "slightly louder", and would require twice as much power.

To actually double the perceived loudness of a speaker requires ten times as much power, not twice as much. It's a logarithmic relationship.

If you double the power in watts going to a speaker, the loudness of the speaker to our ears increases by only 3 dB, or "slightly louder."

A 1-dB difference is the smallest step or change in loudness that humans can detect. Smaller differences in loudness may not be detectable, but in listening tests, most people hear the ever-so-slightly louder speaker as sounding "better," which is why in A/B speaker tests between two speakers, the loudness levels must be matched to a fraction of a decibel.

Incidentally, skins, when I did careful double-blind tests at Axiom of the prototype vp180 center to the vp150, I found the vp180 to be dramatically better and less coloured than the vp150. I praised the vp180 center as sounding essentially as good as what turned out to be the M80v3. So I suspect that the slight level differences in your comparisons at home are leading you to incorrect conclusions.

Regards,
Alan

Haven't had anytime this weekend but did do some quick measurements using pink noise and RS SPL meter.......and just about every spot in theatre section measured up to 3db louder in the 150 ?.........
No seat favoured the 180 ,but MLP was close at -1db... I would have thought 4ohms played louder than 6 ohms.....
Don't now much about sensitivity levels but I guess that why I am having a harder time deciding on which one sounds better ( plus 3 WOW)
Like I said earlier XOVERS at 60 hz for fronts and differences I hear are subtle with 180 sometimes sounding more laid back and natural .
one of my subs is pretty close to center( next to it in fact...inside front towers, which is also making it more difficult to hear a noticeable upgrade)
The 150 sometimes sounds better being a little clearer and more forward( your term I believe was colourful )
And sometimes this gets the 150 into trouble as well

i think I am going to take another owners advice and unplug the 150 for about a week and then retest ( I have owned the 150 for about 12 plus years now, and my ears are used to that sound)
Anyone know a quicker way to match DB without going into Avr menu?
And everyone I truly appreciate all the input
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/22/15 11:03 PM
Originally Posted By: brwsaw
Have you tried changing the polarity of the 180? I know it seems odd and it's pretty likely it's wired correctly but I've seen (heard) it needing to be done on the M80. This would be my next step...It's frustrating because you know it's already right but when you hear it (if I'm right) you'll know.

Great idea
Polarity check done
It is OK
Thanks
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/22/15 11:13 PM
Originally Posted By: casey01
Originally Posted By: TroyD
Thanks Alan .... yes, it can be confusing. Alto of this is confusing wink
I think I hear much then same way as SKINS does.

Here's what I get from this all is that, if we're doing this audessy, or manually setup. If we are setting our Mains and centres to small and cross overs at 80hz, then most of the 80hz and below is going to the subs. SO, if the VP150 sensitivity is down to 80hz, really what are you guys hearing below 80hz in the centre's ? given, that no sound below 80hz is even going that way. What I get from everyone is that the larger boxes are better for bottom end sound. Does, the size of the cabinet effect much of the sound between 100hz - 2k ?
The vp150 seems pretty well flat, there using the exact same drivers the vp180 is using.
I guess the only difference would be the croosover point at 150hz, in that the vp180 would be using the 6.5" drivers and most likely this is where most of the difference lies


Well, it is important to remember that with any crossover setting(in this case the example of 80HZ, 150HZ would be too high), it is not a sudden cut below that frequency but a gradual roll-off so when available, especially at higher volumes, one could still hear those frequencies below 80HZ with the 180. Also, given the size of the cabinet itself and all that extra air moving around, other than the tweeter, it will affect the performance of all the other speakers and ultimately their frequency response and output. One good experiment to try is with the VP180 or even the 160, listen to a male human voice that is reasonably deep first with the crossover on and then off. Even with only a human voice, it will be subtle, but with the crossover disengaged and the speaker in "full range" mode, you will hear a slight further bass extension of that voice. Ultimately, from my own experience, especially experimenting with many types and sizes of speakers, no matter the set-up, a full range speaker like the VP180 is going to give you a more "natural" type sound across the entire frequency range. Because of space limitations, small centers have always been a design compromise that have the habit of providing an unusual and unnatural extra bump, especially in the 300-500HZ range, which primarily because of their cabinet and driver size limitations is almost impossible to smooth out. The sound of the VP150 I owned also was much more affected by placement than the larger 180.

I, personally, have my VP180 set to a 60HZ crossover which diverts the deepest bass to the subs, yet, with the gradual roll off below that setting, it still gives me pretty much the entire frequency range capabilities of the speaker.


At 80hz there was little difference ( if any, content depended)IMO with my ears
At 60hz there are subtle differences ( not always favoring the 180)
Full range ...no contest the 150 struggles......with subs there is no need for full range
60/80hz is better (I think)
But now knowing the 150 is playing at up to +3 DB ,depending where I sit and the fact my ears are more accustomed to the 150 (12 yrs).... I guess test has been unfair to this point
Thanks again for the input
Posted By: a401classic Re: Vp 180 center - 03/23/15 05:58 AM
Don't focus on the +3 dB. Recalibrate the entire system so that you are comparing the quality of the sound, not the volume of the sound.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Vp 180 center - 03/24/15 02:32 AM
But unless one of the speakers is grossly inferior, a 3dB volume difference can lead to the louder speaker being judged superior in quality, not just in volume.
Posted By: DrStrangeQuark Re: Vp 180 center - 03/24/15 04:33 PM

Not to derail the conversation, but really looking forward to my VP180 arriving in June (paying off an installment plan). Working to finish the room up in the mean time. Here's the future home of my center channel. My father owns a 10 year old VP150 on my recommendation, and we've enjoyed it quite a bit. But, I do expect the new 180V4 to be an upgrade.



That's a DIY SilverFire (slighted modified, extra white) screen currently covered up behind. Shelves are on the side walls for film collectibles (mostly LOTR & StarWars).

Posted By: fredk Re: Vp 180 center - 03/25/15 03:54 AM
Nice! Did you spray or roll the screen?
Posted By: DrStrangeQuark Re: Vp 180 center - 03/25/15 02:37 PM
Originally Posted By: fredk
Nice! Did you spray or roll the screen?


Thanks! Rolled the undercoat (Kilz2) and sprayed the silverfire.

Here's a writeup on my experience.
Posted By: brwsaw Re: Vp 180 center - 03/26/15 05:51 AM
Sorry, I was hoping you could confirm did you check the polarity visually or did you swap the cable ends and listen?
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/26/15 08:04 PM
Swap......speaker sounded like playing from a tin can.....so polarity was correct
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 03/26/15 08:18 PM
I think I'm goin to reboot/reset Denon AVR .......maybe applying filters from 150 even though Audyssey is off???? Can't hurt
I'll report back later
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/08/15 02:31 AM
After about a week of only listening to the 180 I went back to the switch , demoing everything I could find, BD concerts ( biggest gap), numerous demo worthy Bd movie scenes ( subtle gap ....sometimes, content dependent) ...... So at that point it was getting to be a little frustrating, as I anticipated a night and day difference when I ordered the VP 180
So tonight I disconnected my left front M80 TI and ran the centres thru Avr front left,put on some CDs and ran 2.1 stereo with 150 on top of 180 both horizontal and one m80ti on right and one sub
WOW NOW I HEAR a night and day difference between 150 and 180....makes sense if sending more sound than in bd movies to center...
This leads me to a few Q's
Am I having issues with my Avr center ?
Possible set up( still not using audessey and Xovers at 60 hz on front stage)?
My demo material may not have enough center channel info?
Or with my ears in my space ....subtle maybe All I will get most times
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/16/15 08:52 PM
Well,I'm past my 30 day "free trial",and have decided to keep the VP 180 for a few reasons
When I compared the 150 to the 180 for most movie scenes/tv watching etc....it was a very close but usually favoured the 180....subtle... ( but I was usually using scenes that the 150 sounded good in ?)
So I found a few scenes that the 150 struggled with ( being a bit too forward.....), and the 180 just played them.....not really drawing any attention to itself ( more laid back and natural....) for this reason alone I'm keeping it .
also on most BD concerts the 180 sounds better,and I think after trying both centres hooked up to left front of AVR it proved the 180 is a much better speaker and as more content gets sent to center channel the 180 will increase the gap
But for now as a center channel I have to say it is a upgrade, but a subtle one.
Thanks guys for all your input....and Patience with me
Posted By: Mojo Re: Vp 180 center - 04/17/15 02:54 AM
I heard the 160 at Jason's place and it blew my 150 out of the water.
Posted By: nickbuol Re: Vp 180 center - 04/17/15 03:34 AM
Yeah, my VP180 blew my VP150 out of the water, even more so when I added some acoustical treatments to my room. Even so, I am still surprised that in some instances it was only subtly better.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/18/15 12:26 PM
That's for I was hoping for when I order the 180.....different rooms,different ears...I guess?it is a better speaker, no doubt. It is only subtle in my case....I am planning on trying port plugs and see if if makes a difference, also the 180 v4 is a lot more laid back than the m80tis....
I clicked on your home theatre link..very nice setup. With an acoustical transparent screen,have you ever thought of/ or tried a 3rd M60 as a centre?Vertical better than horizontal,and so is having three identical speakers as a front soundstage, IMO, I can't do it in my theatre..
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/18/15 12:34 PM
Hey Troy
I will be leaving the vp150 hooked up to speaker switch for a couple of more weeks if you want to get together on a Saturday or Sunday to demo both the 150 and 180.
Lmk
Cheers
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 04/20/15 12:44 AM
Sounds like fun on Saturday ..... what time ?
902.529.1821
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 04/21/15 02:14 PM
I wonder if I should bring in my HK340 and the MCA50 Amp
That would give 380w pch
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/22/15 09:18 PM
Originally Posted By: TroyD
I wonder if I should bring in my HK340 and the MCA50 Amp
That would give 380w pch


Yes ,luv to here those amps ( did u sell those M2's?)
I'll be available on Saturday from 12pm -4:pm or so
I call /text you with directions Thursday or Friday evening
And bring whatever u want for demo material....I have a tun of blu Rays ,if not....
Looking forward to another opinion on the 180
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 04/22/15 10:59 PM
Sounds good
I will un hook the in the morning and bring them with
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 04/22/15 11:14 PM
F'ing sweet. Good for you guys! Jealous!
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/24/15 10:50 PM
Sent you a text
Is that your cell?
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/27/15 09:42 PM
Well TroyD stopped by on Saturday ( Nice guy ,BTW) to demo the Vp180 and the vp150......
I think he was impressed with the 180 for sure...
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 04/28/15 04:03 PM
Yes, Lawrence it was nice to meet you ..
I really liked the 180, but it was nice to hear the whole front three Mi's and really see the difference.
I think and could be wrong in that going with the Mi 80's and the v4 180 is probably a big gap.

I see where the volume levels seem louder with the 150. I think this is where that comes from. whereas the VP180 is more flat, the VP150 upper mids and highs are very noticeable.

I just bought a Anthem AVM30 to match my MCA50 Amp. Maybe I will bring these down sometime. I wish I had a bigger vehicle to bring down the M80v3 this would be more closer inline to the VP180 v4 you have.
Posted By: exlabdriver Re: Vp 180 center - 04/28/15 04:22 PM
Boy, you guys are keen.

I hate moving my speakers an inch, especially the EP-800s, ha!

TAM
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 04/28/15 07:16 PM
well, I gave up my movie room location to my teen daughter ;( for a new bedroom ...not sure why, just more area for mess ......

So Currently my gear is in the living room and not the best for acoustics. I would like for him to here a closer version to the Version 4 so Lawrence can really see the difference in sound.

I mentioned that a few years back some would put a resistor in line with the tweeters to tone them down a bit. Pretty sure SirQuack or Mark J knows about this and could help remember
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 04/30/15 10:16 AM
[quote=TroyD]Yes, Lawrence it was nice to meet you ..
I really liked the 180, but it was nice to hear the whole front three Mi's and really see the difference.
I think and could be wrong in that going with the Mi 80's and the v4 180 is probably a big gap"

Yes there certainly is a difference the M80 ti's are more forward and the
VP 180 v4 more laid back.....I wonder how much of this ,is the speaker design vs version??? Maybe someone from Axiom can comment on this?
Also initially I thought the vp180 was a bit too laid back ,but now I find it fine as my ears are getting more time with it( (12 years with the 150...) and I'm now hearing more of a difference between the two......enough that I couldn't give the 180 up at this point,but the difference between Ti's and V4 M80's maybe in my future....Still really like my Ti's BTW.......BUT definetly not a timbre match with the new 180 ......but ok for now
Posted By: Newf Re: Vp 180 center - 04/30/15 03:42 PM
I'm in the same boat. Technically I should be saving money for other things right now, but I have had the upgrade bug. If anything for curiosity. I have all TI's in my theater and wonder if an upgrade would be worth it. Then there's the do I really need towers anymore in a HT? with Atmos and DSX you start to wonder if all identical directional speakers would work better i.e bookshelves and dual subs. It seems if I did upgrade, it'll have to be all or nothing as the difference between TI and V4 could be a lot.

I have never liked my VP150Ti as much as the rest. Especially since it fell down and tore my freakin 120" screen. Then there's the fact that new 80's are over 2 grand now which is much more than they were 10 years ago, and now your into other manufacture's price range aka SVS. Axiom has been good to me but you wonder if the grass is greener over there sometimes. I'm just rambling.
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 04/30/15 05:59 PM
I hear you newf.

the biggest reason I went with the M80's was for the music content I do watch. I just prefer the Sat/Sub for movies. I just feel its a waste of speaker if I am crossing over at 80 and setting the M80's to small anyways.
I had the MK700MKII and the Axiom M22. I really, really like the MK's Clarity and detail is awesome.
I am two/three years away from building the movie room and am really going to look at going back to sat/sub. Except this time 4 subs. I am thinking my room is not going to be as big as I thought, now that I used it for my daughters bedroom. It is going to be around 1600sq/ft.
I may keep the M80's upstairs and go with sat/subs for movies with the room that size.

The other thing is yes, I found that too in the pricing of Axiom. I know they need to compete and make the best $$ they can, but a few years ago they were atleast %25 cheaper if not more than any decent speakers. example was Paradigm Studio's 60/100's. The 60's are $1995 here and $3000. the M80's were $1300.
Axiom cakewalks over the Studio 60's anyday plus they were $700 cheaper. Now they Studio 100's is a different story, I don't quite think my M80v3 were as good sounding, but at $1700 cheaper hell yeh. Now, to compete with the 100's I believe you have to goto the M80HP if not the M100.
The M100 in standard finish ( not near as good as the Studio's ) are the same price. If you match the finish, they cost more. If you go the M80HP they are $500 cheaper, but if you match the finish they cost the same.
I have not heard the M800HP so cannot tell how close they are, but, it now gives me the option to open the door to even look at the others.
The only thing I see is the M22's are still a bargain. If I go the MK950 route that's $2100 tx incl. if I go the M22 and a VP160 I save $800 , but again it maybe that the extra $800 is worth the sound quality.
Posted By: Newf Re: Vp 180 center - 04/30/15 09:03 PM
I have had cheaper Paradigms before, I think they have always been seriously overpriced. They gotten quite full of themselves over the years.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 05/03/15 09:35 PM
In trying to get the vp180 v4 to play nice with the M80 ti's ,I just want to mention I have tried port plugs on vp180 in misc configurations (1,2 and 3 ports plugged)and did not like any of them...
Too much of the low end was takin away........
Anyone upgrade m80 ti's to V4? What difference did you notice?any other details would be great
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 05/04/15 01:26 AM
Hey if you want, this week come get these M80v3 for a week you can borrow them. I still have my boxes, I just cannot get two in the car. My Pro/Pro won't be here until next Monday. There not version 4 but they close as you can get, not a heck of a lot of difference
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 05/04/15 10:13 AM
That's very generous of you Troy, but I think I'll wait til next fall and may demo the V4 from axiom ( it will be worth the return shipping $100 if I choose not to keep them)
Thanks again Troy
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 05/05/15 10:47 PM
Originally Posted By: theskins
In trying to get the vp180 v4 to play nice with the M80 ti's ,I just want to mention I have tried port plugs on vp180 in misc configurations (1,2 and 3 ports plugged)and did not like any of them...
Too much of the low end was takin away........
Anyone upgrade m80 ti's to V4? What difference did you notice?any other details would be great

Also would like to note on the 150 vs 180 at reference volume there is defineltly a larger gap on MOST ,if not all material.....(my normal listening is -10 to -15 db and reference being 0)
Wow have my ears been adjusted or is there really speaker break in?
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 05/05/15 11:40 PM
The more you listen critically the better you get at it, and yes, there is such a thing as break in. Cue gasps. grin
Posted By: JohnK Re: Vp 180 center - 05/06/15 03:49 AM
Yeah skins, we can never underestimate the ability of our ears, or more specifically mind, to play tricks on us. Any permanent speaker break-in occurs in a matter of seconds, probably during testing at the factory.

Despite lack of hard evidence to support an audible change, this stuff continues to float around. Perhaps the wit who remarked that "Break-in was invented so that we couldn't return anything!" had it right.
Posted By: chesseroo Re: Vp 180 center - 05/06/15 02:24 PM
Originally Posted By: JohnK

Despite lack of hard evidence to support an audible change, this stuff continues to float around. Perhaps the wit who remarked that "Break-in was invented so that we couldn't return anything!" had it right.

I still recall the first time i bought and heard the Axiom M22s vs. my 8 year old Technics setup.
I really thought the M22s sounded thin from my very first impression and i didn't like it at all. After a bit of listening and slow, painful switching of speakers, i observed that the M22s sounded alot more clear, accurate compared to the Technics. However i did still feel they sounded thin and that impression never changed through the 30 day home try out period. If there was to be speaker break-in, should i not have heard some change in this quality?
There was no speaker break-in re: their "thin" sound. It was a more likely conclusion that i was just so used to my more bass heavy Technics sound it has long been my standard for what sounds good.

I contemplated whether i may just prefer more bass in my sound, or perhaps i wanted bigger, more room filling sound (which heavy bass can 'feel' like it accomplishes) and as such, i ordered the M60s instead and sent the M22s back. The M60s had the extra bass, room filling sound i was sort of expecting and the clarity was incredible. Clarity of the M22 but a more full sound. It's a bigger full size speaker. This physically just makes sense.

In this instance, i was so used to my 'reference' sound being more bassy or "full" and to recreate that experience, i needed an overly bassy bookshelf speaker (which does not define the M22s), or a subwoofer addition OR just a larger speaker with larger bass drivers.
I opted for the third choice.

The one thing i had long noted about the M60 bass vs. my old Technics is that it wasn't a bloated bass. My Technics would play a bass note and it wasn't well defined. The Axiom bass sounded accurate and precise, but yet just as 'loud' and room filling.
My opinion on the M60 hasn't changed since the day i bought them almost 13 years ago. They still sound the same as i wrote on my original notes. Should that not have changed as well? Especially after 13 years?
Should my speakers not be breaking down continuously over time if they also take 50 or 100 hours to break in? We are after all talking about driver units that move at several thousand cycles per second. Would they not break in within a few seconds of testing at the manufacturer?
I mean geez. I installed a new backdoor on our house and the door was a bit sticky. After 3 or 4 door openings the grooves made along the door jamb didn't continue to increase (and no it wasn't sticking enough to bother getting out the planer). If i could open and close my backdoor 1000 times per second, how many seconds would it take for my door to 'break in'?
It has moving parts just like a speaker. Back and forth. Back and forth.

Speaker break in?
Bah nonsense.
Posted By: mapatton Re: Vp 180 center - 05/07/15 12:39 PM
I beg to differ. Speakers obviously become wore out after time (and I am not talking foam rot). So yes they do change their timbre over time. The question is "break in" to what? A timbre that is the listener's preference I would presume. That is a vast difference, and measured over a large amount of time for the average AV user.

I say this from a musician aspect. I had a cabinet loaded with pre-Rola Celestion greenbacks. I played through that cab pretty much 6-8 hrs a day for years. The timbre of those speakers did change over that time (as measured by IR measurements)
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 05/07/15 09:12 PM
I have heard speakers on two seperate occasions out of box set up next to speakers months old and there was a night and day difference. The models were tested at the store then again at my home. Same result. I was arguing with a dealer just as you guys are and he shut me up good. The older speakers were smoother sounding and had no harshness in the treble vs out of the box new performance.

I added a set of the same towers to my ht setup. When the speakers were compared, there was no listening to the new ones till they had ran in over 48 hours or so at moderate levels. I would listen to them once a day for a couple minutes and knew they werent done yet. This may not exhibit in all speakers, but you would have to be in a horrible space or near deaf not to realise the difference in the ones I heard. I added bookshelves later, same tweeter/drivers, same pattern. I should mention in the dealer tests and in my old theater there was controlled first reflections and a low RT60 time.

The return policy breakin conspiracy is what a crank would claim was the case! grin ::throws chum to the sharks:: laugh

Love to hear craigsub's opinion on this. I recall he breaks in his speakers before any critical listening.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Vp 180 center - 05/07/15 09:39 PM
Perhaps this would be an interesting blind test for Craig or someone to try out...brand new speakers vs "broken in". As long as they have no updates on the newer speaker, obviously, and they are identical in every way except the hours on them prior to testing.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 05/07/15 10:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Adrian
Perhaps this would be an interesting blind test for Craig or someone to try out...brand new speakers vs "broken in". As long as they have no updates on the newer speaker, obviously, and they are identical in every way except the hours on them prior to testing.

Speakers would also have to be placed in same position which would require a little extra effort( moving both sets in between)
I believe in break in for the record......I also believe it may or may not be audible in different speakers
Example my 8 year old velodyne subwoofer sounded flat, no punch over the first 2 weeks of use( about 30 hrs of music listening, about 2 hrs a night)
It sounded so bad I was planning on returning it before 30 day trial was up,and then all of sudden I came home from work and put one of the disc I've been listening too through demo and BAM there it is punchy ,tight ,in your chest bass....WOW
Not subtle ,huge difference
So unless a mouse was residing in there from the factory and got fed up with the noise (2 hrs a night ) and while was at work ,deciding he was packin his shit up and movin out (unblocking port maybe?) something drastically changed...........not subtle
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 05/07/15 11:46 PM
This would be an extremely easy test for craigsub. Just set up one each M50/100/prime tower and leave the others for a week or so. Run the speakers 24/7 in the basement away from yourself. Then listen to the out of box vs ran in after. Would be excited and validated to hear his results! wink. He's buying them anyway. For science! Lol. They wouldn't necessarily need to be set in the same spot either. Differences should be noticed readily enough without that level of precision in my (narrow) experience.

Suggested tracks:

Man in mirror- Michael Jackson
Shes out of my life - Michael Jackson
Everything in its right place - Radiohead

Anything with sustained tones in the mid/treble range as my dealer showed me could highlight these differences. But once noticed, any material sounds unacceptable by comparison.
Posted By: craigsub Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 12:39 AM
Guys - Here is a pretty interesting article on "break in" or "burn in" in regards to speakers.

http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

There were measureable differences in the driver after "burn in". As have many others, I have heard speakers "break in" over a period of time. BUT ... when I tried a blind test a few years ago, using a matched pair of stereo speakers, one with 100 hours on it, the other fresh out of the box, in a blind test, I could not hear a difference.

It's a fun topic, and my only wish is that people would not make fun of others, no matter which direction one believes is "true".
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 01:13 AM
[quote=craigsub]Guys - Here is a pretty interesting article on "break in" or "burn in" in regards to speakers.

http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

There were measureable differences in the driver after "burn in". As have many others, I have heard speakers "break in" over a period of time. BUT ... when I tried a blind test a few years ago, using a matched pair of stereo speakers, one with 100 hours on it, the other fresh out of the box, in a blind test, I could not hear a difference.

So if there was measurable differences in this particular driver( after burn in ) that were not audible.....is it possible in another driver, larger? made of different material or surround ,that it may be audible?
Also would like to mention in most cases ( my experience) I was unable to hear a noticble difference
( no measuring instruments....other than my ears) and also truly believe in your ears( or mind) adjusting to new speakers as well
But that subwoofer was not my ears adjusting.....at least not that drastic ,that fast( hated it up to that point)

Posted By: craigsub Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 02:10 AM
Gr Research and Madisound did a few more tests ..

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm

It's a lot to absorb, but some pretty good stuff.
Posted By: craigsub Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 02:27 AM
I forgot to mention that the test I did regarding break in was with a pair of Onex Ref 3's from AV123. It is highly likely they were well broken in ... as in used ... before I got them.

The boxes had been re-taped closed, and Mr. Wizard here never thought to think about this until about a year after the test.

It would be fun to try this with speakers we KNOW are new.
Posted By: Adrian Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 12:56 PM
This type of test would really come down to "what is measureable vs what is audible".
Posted By: MatManhasgone Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 09:35 PM
This is beginning to sound an awful lot like: Vinyl sounds better than CD, and 24bit 96 vs 24bit 192 vs 16bit 44.8

There is the component to the equation that we convince ourselves that it must sound better so therefor it does.

There is all talk about double blind sound testing.. But I wonder if they ever do the same procedure with double blind testing but only use a single product that should for all purposes sound exactly the same every single time, just to see if the real limiting factor is actually the people doing the test.
Posted By: theskins Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 10:15 PM
Originally Posted By: craigsub
Gr Research and Madisound did a few more tests ..

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm

It's a lot to absorb, but some pretty good stuff.



Thanks for the link
Pretty good read....I must say
Posted By: casey01 Re: Vp 180 center - 05/08/15 11:57 PM
Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
This is beginning to sound an awful lot like: Vinyl sounds better than CD, and 24bit 96 vs 24bit 192 vs 16bit 44.8

There is the component to the equation that we convince ourselves that it must sound better so therefor it does.

There is all talk about double blind sound testing.. But I wonder if they ever do the same procedure with double blind testing but only use a single product that should for all purposes sound exactly the same every single time, just to see if the real limiting factor is actually the people doing the test.



There is at times a fickleness among "A/V files" and sometimes it just confirms that ultimately your ears(not necessarily your pocketbook) will and should prevail. Although, not right on topic, there is a rather interesting article over at the "CanadaHifi.com" website in which the author was reviewing the Bryston T2 speakers which are the smaller version of the more expensive A2 line. The T2s, of course, are very similar in design to the M80s and, of course, built by Axiom for Bryston, which was acknowledged in the column. He has a couple of "well healed" friends who each have stereo systems costing in excess of $100,000 so he decided to invite them over and do a blind listening test with the T2s by just covering up the name, playing some music and asking them afterwards how much they thought the speakers cost?

After they listened for quite awhile each one guessed from a minimum of $7000 up to $12,000. When he told them the MSRP per pair was $2799, they were totally floored and couldn't believe it.

And the beat goes on.
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 05/09/15 12:41 AM
This thread is thoroughly derailed! laugh. Instead of resulting in bans, it resulted in cool data exchange and now a possible test from craig. It just works on this forum! wink
Posted By: Ken.C Re: Vp 180 center - 05/09/15 12:42 AM
SHUT UP.
Posted By: AAAA Re: Vp 180 center - 05/09/15 12:45 AM
grin
Posted By: craigsub Re: Vp 180 center - 05/09/15 01:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
SHUT UP.


I have the right to remain silent, but lack the ability.
Posted By: SCare Re: Vp 180 center - 06/09/15 01:06 PM
Just ordered the VP 180 b-stock........BIG thanks to everyone for their input
Posted By: TroyD Re: Vp 180 center - 06/11/15 12:34 AM
and I guess I ordered the VP 180 HG just in time then lol
just arrived today. not a smudge on it and I can't even see the ding.
But she's big I have to use two chairs and its 2 ft infront of the others for now. Looks like I got to build a custom stand this week
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