Hi,

I have the M3 v4 in-ceiling for my atmos speakers. Is the tweeter aimable

Thanks

Nope.

Dam. Did they used to be? Been searching around and have found mention of it, but there was no mention in the manual which printed the question.

Interesting ... for some reason I thought they were aimable too. Not sure why ...

I had originally planned on using the In-ceilings in my ATMOS setup till Ian told me they did not image well because the driver is buried behind the flange. So now my plan is to use on-walls or in-walls in/on the ceiling.

That would have been nice to know!

The tweeter is actually slightly aimable.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qkegztRmxKsPRNGg6

I'd like to see a revised M3 in-ceiling that has the driver ahead of the flange. I think that would still look better in the ceiling vs. a rectangular M3 in-wall.

Is that for real? That torquey tilting is not described anywhere. It looks like the woofer could foul with the teetering tweeter upon the tenor of a tremendous temblor. Directional cues in movies come from mid-range sounds so I don't think aiming the tweeter buys much.

I opened a support ticket to get a definitive answer.

For sure post back here. I was just about to pull the trigger on 4 in ceiling M3s for atmos. Heck, in their video on the M3 in-ceiling product page, they say they would be good for atmos.

I'm in the exact same boat, about to pony up and buy 4 in-celling M3's for Atmos. And also trade-up my side mounted Q10's for a pair of on-wall M5HP's.

Would like to know what are the best axiom speakers for atmos celling. I have no interest is going with a different brand. I'm a big believer in tribal matching.

I haven’t heard of anything yet. Probably won’t until Monday. Will update the thread when I get a response.

I actually got in touch with Ian. Sounds like the in-celing will work for atmos, but better off with in-wall mounted in-ceiling. I did not ask about a poinable tweeter.

My question:

My intent for the four in-ceilings was to use them for Atmos.

I was just about to order this and I stumbled across a post in your forums where some said you had indicated the in-ceilings are not very good for Atmos because they do not image well due to the driver being behind the flange?

Can you comment further on this? If true, how about the M3 in-wall mounted in the ceiling?


Ian’s response:

Hi , The M3 in-wall will be superior no matter the application because of the drivers being slightly in-front of the plane. The comment about Atmos is not quite correct however, I mentioned that for Atoms the in-ceiling would be less of a compromise because they are only handling effects. Thanks Ian
Axiom Audio

If that's the case would in-wall M5HP's be over kill for Atmos celling? I have 4 of them for my surrounds.

You'll love the M5s.

Thanks, but my specific question on this thread is the aimable question. In wall speakers are a no-go for me.

If your ceiling is low (<8 feet) and/or aesthetics are a concern, the M3 in-ceiling is the way to go.

In-wall M3s into the ceiling, and somehow angled towards MLP, would be better.

If you want the absolute best, full-cabinet speakers, somehow mounted to the ceiling and pointed towards MLP are the way to go.

I'm perfectly happy with my 4 in-ceilings, which are far better than the bounced Atmos effect speakers any day of the week.

Ya, fair enough. Got a little derailed. If you have the in-ceiling m3’s like you say in your original post, can’t you just look and see if it is amiable?

Given the way they mount, not sure how you could angle an in-wall (or in-ceiling).

Since my ceiling has room for either in-celing or in-wall and given they are the same price, I had might as well go in-wall in my ceiling.

My joists run front to back, so the speakers would be mounted length wise in relation to the MLP. Should I mount them so the tweeters are closest to the MLP or so the woofer are? Or should they all be mounted in the same orientation?

Did you see my earlier post with pic? The tweeter is aimable, but only slightly (maybe 10 to 15 degrees).

Your pic did not work for me. Says the album is empty.

I assume you are 7.1 or 7.2 right now? What is your Atmos goal, 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 or 7.1.4?

Can’t tell if you are looking to buy additional m5 in-wall for atmos or to repurpose what you have?

If you are keeping what you have for surrounds and looking to purchase additional speakers for Atmos, I suspect M5 in-wall might be a little beefier than what you need for overheads.

Whoops, this should work:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6qDR6LqwyHmbZMiZA

I have a 7.1 system now, M80HP's, VP180HP & M5HP's for rear and will be trading-up my side QS10's for on-wall M5HP's. Will be powered by Denon X8500H using out board ATI amp for main 5 channels.

I am looking do 7.1.4. I think 6 overhead might be too much. My room has one row of 3 seats and is 19' x 13' with 8' flat ceiling. Dolby recommends ceiling speakers be placed at 45 degrees in front and behind listener. That puts them at 4'6" which is a 9 foot spread.

Dolby does indicate there is some wiggle room on this spacing but I'm still concerned about the dispersion. As mentioned there is no easy way to tilt the mounting of an in-wall (ceiling speaker). I really don't want to mount any kind of box speaker on my ceiling. Wife has her limits, this is our living room.

You have the M5s so you're familiar with their excellent off-axis characteristics. The tweeter is quite linear to about 60 degrees and the mid to about 45 degrees. Beyond that, they don't sound bad but their character does change.

If you place them with their mids 4 feet ahead of your MLP, assuming your ears are about 3 feet off the floor, you'll be within the range of the above angles.

It appears the X8500H is the one receiver to rule them all!

First off thanks for the info on the M5's dispersion. So if I were to go with the M5's or M3's (in-wall style) in-ceiling how would I place them? Horizontal with the tweeter furthest or closest from MLP or horizontal, tweeter in or outside?

Sitting in the center seat the angle to the in-ceiling speakers is shallower as the distance is further than the end seats. My ears are 3'6" from the floor.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Yeah can't wait

I don't have ATMOS but if I did, I'd experiment with orientations like the ones I show at the link below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1--Wv1h6Yf2KEJPQV8lNXn5hvY31K02tK

On the subject of the aimable tweeter, the M3 in-ceiling does have an aimable tweeter. It is also quite unique how it works because it is a gimbal. The tweeter itself pivots in one direction and the ring around it pivots in the other allowing you to point it in any direction. The gimbal avoids the problem of the tweeter pivoting in a socket which results in the edge of the socket interfering with the tweeter's response.

Thank you Ian! A few follow-up questions.

1) With the aimable tweeter, does the orientation of the speaker matter when in the ceiling or just slap it in the ceiling and just adjust from there?

2) What screws specifically do I adjust...there are many!

Thanks bman!

I wasn't about to go start messing around unscrewing my new speakers!

You can't just take off the grills and simply position the tweeter to the angle you want?

I got a response from Ian saying to place the tweeters closest to the listeners. This was in response to me stating the speakers would be mounted lengthwise (front to back of room). Though I would think the answer would be the same regardless of speaker orientation.

I didn't know the M3 in ceiling had a pointable tweeter. Given this, I may go with them instead.

I can't imagine one would notice much of a difference between the 2 in Atmos duty and having the aimable tweeter will give me a little more 'tweaking' ability.

Hi hhiggins,

It is just a slap it in and adjust to how you want it as the gimbal goes in all directions.

The screws are all factory set, you do not need to touch them. You can just push on the tweeter and/or the ring to point the tweeter in the desired direction.

Thank you Sir! Glad I didn’t mess around with the screws. Cheers!

Ian innovates 18 hours a day and when he's sleeping, he's still innovating in his dreams. Somewhere in between all that, he makes time for us on these boards!

If I assume that the post your referring to is mine (I decided not to use the M3c for my Atmos ceiling because of concerns with imaging). My thinking:

Atmos is an object placement format. The movies sound engineer states “this object is at this point in 3D space and here’s it’s audio track”. Given that infomation each play back system (yours, mine, your local movie theater, etc) figures out how to get it there by using its unique speaker layout and locations. How close to the exact location will depend partially on how well those speakers image.

That said, at the moment Ian is probably right ... most of the time it’s just an overall effect, the exact placement does not matter. But the power of Atmos is when is does matter and I suspect as time goes on it will matter more and more as engineers embrace this format.

So if Ian told you the M3c's don't image well do to their recessed driver are you going to use the in-wall M3's?

I'm still trying to figure this out for myself.

Here are a few links you might be interested in. The first link talks about how important it is to have wide dispersion in-ceiling speakers.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/dolby-atmos-dispersion-requirements-for-ceiling-speakers/

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/ten-speaker-layout-tips-for-dolby-atmos-dts-x-auro/

thanks for the articles. Im assuming the M3 onWalls and M3 inWalls are very close in their sound characteristics. It would be interesting to see a set of X & Y axial graphs at a few frequencies

Thinking of using onWalls but have not rule out inWalls ... for me the decision between the 2 has nothing to do with reproduction but more with trying to meet Massachusetts electrical code and optimizing sound proofing. These conflict a bit And I have not completely sorted out all the issues

Awww Geez! Not the Massachusetts electrical code!!

I've already got the in-ceilings, so hoping for an improved design some day that brings the woofer ahead of the ceiling plane.

bman has lots of charts and graphs to prove how good they measure in his room!

https://www.someecards.com/usercards/viewcard/58941b888ebce1a69e5d0db465d4d311/?tagSlug=workplace

LOL

Haha. These ones:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/F618X28ebM6UD4bm8

Yeah...those! Ok, the "post EQ" curves are not downward-tilting (see 6th verse at link below) like the "pre-EQ" curves but cutting Audyssey off at 500Hz could fix that.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php/topics/430664/Re:_We_six_curves_of_Axiom_are#Post430652

Yah, there seems to be some interpretation issues with the electrical inspector (think he pushing for a "real electrician" to do my in-wall network and speaker wiring ... ). I'm sure you don't get that up north!

Of course there are interpretation issues. Chalk that up to the use of language. That's why we have math; to avoid misunderstandings.

Up here we can do whatever we want to our igloos.

Ya, I don't know what the future of Atmos mixes holds.

Regardless, I'd be shocked if I could tell much of a difference between an in-ceiling and in-wall in the ceiling when it comes to Atmos. Especially with no a/b test.

At this point I am thinking, from an atmos perspective, given my 8ft ceiling height (which is on the low end), the amiable tweeter is going to be of more benefit to me than a speaker that has the driver slightly in front of the plane. Of course, I could be way off on that.

Either way I am confident things will sound just peachy with m3 in-ceilings.

I guess the idea of speaker wiring being "low voltage" starts to get a bit wobbly when each of your power amplifiers has its own dedicated 20A power outlet.

Any equipment and installations with input and/or output voltages greater than 50VAC RMS and/or 75VDC are considered hazardous. If you're running an amp that can provide around 600W into a 4 Ohm load or 300W into an 8 Ohm load, you're working with hazardous voltages.

hmmmm ... think axiom needs to make protective covers for the back of their speakers.

If you connect via stripped wire, fork or ring tongues, the banana plugs are bare on the top. You can stick two fingers in them. If you connect via banana jacks, the termination becomes safer.

I recall the banana plugs from previous versions shipped with plastic inserts that would prevent probing fingers. Of course those inserts can always be popped off quite easily.

Banana jacks are safer but not completely safe. Someone can come along, pull them out and contact them. A locking banana may be the answer (see link).

https://www.nbhifi.nz/product/1649707

Mojo ... those plug are all metal ... as are mine

At those high wattage numbers, I think your ears would be bleeding before you could even come close to touching any wires.

bman, it depends on how far the MLP is, the sensitivity of the speakers, the room properties and the source material.

rrlev, with regard to the plastic inserts, I am referring to the terminals on the speakers. On the top of those terminals, there are holes that are exposed if you're not using banana jacks. My v2 had plastic caps that closed those holes.

I agree with both bman and you. I do not think I’d ever listen at that level continuously but dynamics could conceivably hit shockingly high voltages at fairly reasonable levels. Gives new meaning to a heart stopping passage ... although I think you would have to be holding both leads to get the full effect.

I suppose if one is worried about shock then insulated spade connectors make the most sense. Or perhaps insulated banana plugs if they can be secured well..

Dynamics...yes! If you only hold one lead, nothing will happen.