deleted ... post got away from me

As most know ... I'm in the middle of working on my home theater ... just thought you'd like an update. But first some background:

The media room was getting in the way of moving into our new house (the room was not being built correctly). So, we put it on hold and moved in just before the Massachusetts locked down for Covid. This turned out to be a good thing because there was a lot more wrong with the build than I first knew about. It also gave me time to experiment and re-think.

Now that I had a real room I could setup the speakers, get a feel for different arrangements and refine my speaker layout. Originally I was not sure if I was going to setup on the long or short wall and wired the ceiling surrounds to do both. I knew setting up on the short wall would be the best for surround sound but setting up on the long wall would give me a more living room feel. Ultimately I would chose the short wall but it took many months of experimentation before I was convinced. Interestingly, if I was setting up for two channel alone I'd probably have setup on the long wall.

After that I took down the walls and discovered that some of the studs were warped enough to touch the channel in places. This was the 2nd time taking down the walls. The first time I had the builder do it because the panels didn't move in places (and a few other reasons). You'd think that they check if the walls moved when they put the panels back up ... anyway there were enough other problems (clip layout) which forced me to take down all the clips and resilient. Since everything was off the studs I wanted to correct an oversight and put-up a layer of mass loaded vinyl. So, this brings you up to the current state.



Hopefully I'll be putting up the resilient again in a couple of weeks

Thought about adding a layer of mlv in my HT. You'll have to let me know if it helps. I'm going to push safe and sound against the subflooring then put the regular insulation back in beneath that and the ceiling drywall. Trying to dampen the sounds going through the two floors as much as possible. Also adding two layers of 5/8 drywall. I'll use safe and sound in the wall studs.

Well, that may be hard since I have not tried it without MLV

Use lots of screws when attaching the drywall to the channel. I used one every 6 inches and still had to add more later for a few random rattles.

If I did channel again in a room with subs I would lay a heavy bead of silicone on the channel before attaching drywall. I cant remember if you are backing the drywall with osb. If you are it will reinforce the stiffness of walls and increase bass variation. Toss up between isolation and performance.

One layer drywall on channel- walls act as large diaphrams. Help lower decay times of lower frequencies due to surface area. Less stc performance. Potential for rattles.

Two layers on channel w/green glue- neutral assembly. Great stc.

One layer with wood backer- extremely stiff wall. Bass decay longer. Potential for reinforced nodes.

Two layers with wood backer- might as well be concrete, but without the stc performance. Not a great use of budget, but people do it.

The transmission loss of the assembly only needs to be higher than the ambient noise in adjacent spaces. So, if there is laundry nearby for example, an stc of 60 or so is plenty. If you are trying to keep the sound IN the room bass energy is the problem. Maybe the MLV will help with this, but I have no experience with it.

If I was to redo a built from scratch room for me, I would stud my walls as normal, insulate with quiet zone, then run comfortboard 80 perpendicular on studs. Then one layer of drywall. Done. Flexible with super high stc, no chance of rattles.


Whatever you do, put a smoke alarm in there connected to the rest of the house detectors. You arent going to hear it otherwise.

Exciting and I'm curious; What are the room dimensions? Number of seats? size of screen? What are you doing for A/C, a dedicated unit or tying into the houses system? What is MLV?

Mlv is a vinyl sound dampener. It works for mid to higher frequencies. It’s not thick enough to affect low frequencies.

Trevor, I think this is going to be a multi post reply ... On this

I agree with you with a few thoughts and observations.

Going with 3 layers. The first layer goes up with a screw every foot. The next layer with a screws offset by 6”. The finial layer with screws offset 3” from that. I guess if you really wanted to be sure you could put a in one more round into that finial layer if you felt it was needed screws every 6”. That would result in a screw going into the channel every 3”.

As you probably know … each layer should be put in with a different length screw long enough to get a good grip but short enough not to exceed the depth of the channel. Now even though the builder assured me he had experience with hat channel he made a face when I asked if he was doing that. So, I made sure that he had these lengths on were hand. Unfortunately that didn’t stop the workers from occasionally using a length that was too long and as result I found a couple of shorts. I also had several rattles in different places. I’ll say more on this and your other comments in another post.

LC,
I was supposed to have a room 18'x23' but while I was thinking finished the architect gave me that unfinished. So, I lost 6" on all the walls to spray insulation and safe & sound and 3" on each wall to clips/hat/OSB/double wall board plus a bit more to padding out the studs, MLV, plaster and a change in the back wall to go from a staggered wall to a double wall. All in all I'm gong to end up with about 16'x21'.

Planning on five main seats if I can fit them (else 4). A game table in back with five office chairs which can be moved behind the main seats for additional viewers and two large bean bags in front of the main seats.

Screen size is 150" with masking if I need to make it smaller.

The HVAC has two huge dead vents (think mufflers) for the supply and return. The supply is connected to the HVAC and the return leads into the hall near an HVAC return.

MLV stands for Mass Loaded Vinyl. It's there as yet another material density. There are virtually no air gaps in it as I have glued and corked it together. I'm hoping that it will take a bit of energy out of the low end but Canes maybe right ...

With the HVAC in the room connected to the home/house system, won't some of the sound just travel through to the rest of the home. even with mufflers?

TBD ... A separate 8" supply duct (some of which is flex) was run off the main supply far from the HT. The overall length is something like 40 feet to the vent in the HT. Right outside the HT the 8" duct expands into a 6 foot S shaped 16" duct surrounded by safe and sound after which goes back to an 8" duct again. The 16" flex is designed with plenty of length (like an accordion) to move and absorb energy. My thinking is that the sound pressure would be reduced 4x by expanding into the larger flex and that a lot of energy will be dissipated by the large flex wall area. Some will make it though to the other side but how much I don't know. Since I put in a access panel I can experiment.

Ok, the 2nd part to the screw holding power and rattle

When I examined the resilient I notice that a lot of the screw holes were bent outward making them larger so it wasn't engaging the screw well. This was probably why when I shook one part of the wall another part would rattle, The screw was rubbing the resilient and not holding the board. Cause ... the installer was over torquing the screws. It would not be good if that explosive movie brought the ceiling down on me ... that's a little bit more in the action then I'm going for ...

I did some experiments and this was the case. If I over torqued the screw the resilient could easily be pulled away from the board easily. If I torqued it snug the resilient was on tight.


I'm not sure this is a good idea. I'd want a solid connection where the screw was firmly attached to the channel. If you allowed the screw to move around it might expand its hole or work it's way out.

I am planning OSB as the first layer. My main reason was so I could attach things to the walls like molding/speakers if needed. This is especially true of the ceiling as many speakers will be hung on it.

The room is being built the way it is to be as sound proof as I can make it. My understanding was that the extra board would make the sound proofing better. It was also my understanding that there is little low end sound adoration with two wall boards.

Now you have me questioning that. It would be great if anyone could give me more feedback on this ...


My current plan for the low-end is to drive it with 4 subs to even things out.

Oh sh*t ... I'll have to get one in there ...
Wish I thought about this before ... it's not going to be easy now ...

Make sure your installer uses fine thread drywall screws -not normal coarse. They wont pop. I put over 2000 in my room with an impact driver. None popped.

Worst place for rattles was near corners. The silicone will smoosh completely flat. Just eliminates any flapping in the channel. With your layers not a concern. Your wall wont flex at all.

Here is a link for common wall assemblies

https://www.stcratings.com/assemblies.html#05

I think you would hit 60-65 or so with your plan.

I was thinking about what you said here and I may have a solution.
But first a few thoughts ...

There are two different goals which maybe fighting one another:

- sound isolation (keeping the wife happy & minimizing ambient noise)
- taming modal reflections in the low frequencies

STC does not cover frequencies below 125Hz ... so a better STC does not necessarily translate to better low frequency isolation. My understanding was that three 5/8 sheets were better than two because the heavier large area on clips would work to better dissipate the low-end. But now you have me wondering if the OSB is too stiff to let the double wall green board sandwich do its job (which possibly make STC worse ... )

Wish I had data on all this but ... An interesting data point on ply/green-glue isolation is that green glue is often sandwiched between plywood sheets in ceilings and floors. Also, I've seen many write-ups where a wall board green glue sandwich was attached to the ply under the floor to do the same.

The 2nd issue you pointed out is that there are benefits to not stiffening the wall too much as the double wall green glue sandwich absorbs modal energy. I wish I knew more about this as I was considering the resilient/walls to only be for isolation w/o benefit to sound inside the room.

I have no practical experience on this topic ... but it makes sense to me that for the green glue to do it's job the wall board needs to flex. So, without any data to back this up, I'm thinking of putting 1/4" wood strips between the OSB and the double drywall. It would allow the double wall board to vibrate and do it's job while still having a backer board to screw into. It also provides the same mass wall on the clips which might help dissipate the lower frequency energy (yet another "I think it might" unknown: does it help, hinder or do nothing). It's my hope that it will will help (especially in the ceiling) with the low end and reduce flanking.

Anyway, I'd like to get any feedback on the above and especially on implementing the 1/4" spacing idea.

This is all very impressive.
The idea is to (aside from getting good sound within the room) to keep any sound from emanating out? Almost sound proof?

I had looked into various sound control design methods and came across a manual of sorts put out by the NRC or some similarly educated group of engineers. It had great info on STC ratings for various materials, insulation, etc. It had notes about offset studding and dual walls, etc. Space was a limitation to some extent so inches upon inches of extra walls and materials wasn't realistic nor worth the cost, but the STC ratings were a huge help.

I decided that simply building a room that could reduce sound outflow by even 20dB would be sufficient to control anything but heavy bass to a very acceptable level within the rest of the house so i used the STC ratings in the manual to add up various materials to attain a STC somewhere between 45 and 60 (again this is so long ago i don't remember the exact number). Double dry walled ceiling (with a denser board type, cannot quite recall but "concrete" board or something like that?) with 12" of stuffed Roxul and same for the room walls except only 6" depth on the Roxul was reasonably inexpensive and has been very effective. Closing the doors to the room (which have an inside latch for a tight seal and to remove any door rattle) cuts the sound outside the doors by 30dB. On the main floor immediately above, you can only hear bass and it isn't defined enough to really make anything out.
The remainder of the basement rooms were all finished with interior Roxul insulation as well for two reasons. Further reduction of sound on that floor, up the hall from the media room and second, to help with basement room heat/cooling insulation.
I have to say, for the slight extra cost, we didn't have to go crazy and it controls sound outflow very well.

Chess, I started off reasonable ... double wall board on staggered studs but then the builder told me he knew how to do resilient channel ... and once I started down that rabbit hole I had to keep going ...

The only issue I see with leaving a gap is the triple leaf effect. Between layers any air gap non damped with material is going to create a space for sound to resonate and actually lower the stc.

Line the osb with a soundmat then drywall. Bunker. Yet flex in drywall. This ties the floor assembly logic you mention into a wall. You should be able to find reliable data on the idea or similar

Very important to understand your home vapour flow before sealing a room with non permeable membranes. Ensure your home is dry and know moisture always dries to the outside in cold climates. Below grade, be sure you have conditioned air movement and low humidity. Any moisture between the mlv and osb will dry slowly. Ensure this space never gets cold/moist to reduce chances of condensation.

https://www.usg.com/content/usgcom/...nt-prep/sound-absorbing-mats-boards.html

Page 10 info. Wood wall assemblies page 20.
http://www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_...ssets/acoustical-assemblies-en-SA200.pdf

The basement stays pretty dry. The only time I’ve seen any wetness was when they were building the house before grading and gutters … and then it took a constant down pour with all the water from the the roof running down the sides of the foundation. Haven’t see anything since and we’ve had some pretty good storms. Bottom line is I’m pretty safe … but that said it’s not 100% certain.

I think I’ll beef up the drainage system a bit anyway …. especially on that side of the house.

Are foundation slabs and walls not protected with an external non-permeable membrane nowadays?

Yes they have a very good coating on the out side and there should be good drainage around the footing … but if you pour enough water down the foundation walls fast enough it will still find it’s way though.

Ah, rabbit hole.
got it

Well, it's 3 months later and I haven't moved much ... the guy that's helping me needed to take some time and we have just started up again. Finally putting back up the channel



In the mean time a few things changed. I've decided to use OSB only on the ceiling (to hang speakers) and on the electric wall (a 3' wide wall section which is inside a 11" alcove turned cabinet). Between the OSB and the wall board sandwich I'm putting some squishy floor underlay (thanks Trevor) which will hopefully allow the sandwich to vibrate a bit (who knows if it will work). The other walls will just be two layers 5/8s wallboard with green glue. I'm not 100% sure if I'm gaining or loosing by getting rid of the OSB behind the walls but at least I know what to expect performance wise.

I also doubled up most of the in-wall wiring that the electrician put in. It was too small a gauge for most of the runs and they did some creative wiring ... one 30' run had over 50' of wire in it (my guess is they ran it to the wrong place and then just kept going). I would have pulled some of it but most of it was unmovable being in the spray foam insulation. Anyway now all speaker run have a damping factor over 100 ...

Finally a fire alarm wire was snaked and attached to the halls fire alarm and all the MLV was hung ...

I think the approach i'm going to take in ceiling is safe n sound against the subfloor, then normal insulation (since we already have it we may as well use it), sound isolation clips with furring channel, osb, then 5/8" drywall with green goo. I'm still doing some research but the biggest obstacle is trying to prevent the lower frequencies from making it upstairs.

Think this is what your saying (from subfloor moving down to HT ceiling):



where i'm doing:



Think the OSB question was about stiffness. 1/2" OSB has some flex and suspect it should work as one side of the green glue sandwich. In my case with 3 layers I'm not sure if it's reducing the effectiveness of the green glue. I'm hoping for some absorption in both the green glue and floor muffler but ...

It's an experiment which, If I get ambitious, I might try to measure.

Think this is what your saying (from subfloor moving down to HT ceiling):



Correct. I wanted to add the osb strictly to have flexibility for mounting speakers or projector while also adding some mass.

Your ceiling will certainly have more mass than mine. Fortunately I don't have to worry about the walls too much but I will probably still add clips and channel along the inside dividing wall and on the outside of the stairwell. It'll all be insulated with safe n sound.

From my understanding you need to decouple the whole room from the studs to be effective. So, I would definitely do the walls.

From my reading, sound will probably find a path upstairs if you don't. Maybe Trevor (or someone in the know) can chime in with their thoughts on that ...

On mounting the projector ... After discussing this with Trevor, it was decided to screw the projector mount to the floor joists and have it stick through the ceiling.



One worry I had was that the ceiling is designed to vibrate. If that transferred to the projector would you see it on the screen? This is probably a non-issue as I could find no mention of it as a problem but ... doing this made me feel better. It's also the way Trevor does it in his installs. 2nd it allows the option of mounting a heavier projector and 3rd a nice way to route cables (the pipe runs to some conduit which goes to the equipment cabinet).

Are you doing in-ceiling speakers for Atmos?

I'm putting M3 on-walls on the ceiling. First go will use FMBs to mount them ... but I may opt to mount them flush later.

Good stuff. The floating assembly will (and should) move during LFE passages.

Projector wount shake if drop pole mounted to structure.

I think the outcome will be fantastic. Great attention to detail and install quality so far. Vinyl looks great and no ripples. Very pro!

Thanks Trever.

One of the reasons this project is taking forever is that I want to understand what I'm doing before I do it. Even then I end up discovering stuff on the job, have to stop, think, or even research before moving on. I'll redo steps if that's what it takes to get it done right.

(Side note: Some of my clients value this as they know if they put me on the job it will be done right. Others don't as it takes me too long compared to the other guy who often does the job half ass.)

Right now, I'm committed to finishing this room as quickly as I can. The end is in sight (at least for phase 1) and it has taken way longer than expected.

----------------
The rest of this is just my thoughts on "experts" -- and has more to do with hiring people to do this for you.

Pro's who really know and have done it many times can get it right the first time. They know what's important to check before moving to the next step. Even then mistakes are made which the good ones will correct ... unfortunately, some will just move forward as time is money. Others (like my builder) will tell you they know when in reality they know less than you do. I think my builder actually thought he knew.

Over the years I have learned to distrust "experts", in all fields, till they proved themselves. Very few of them like it if a client wants to discuss how something should be done. So, if it's important to me, I tend to want to do it my self or at least know enough to understand what's going on. I actually find accumulating all this diverse knowledge interesting and fun. At least it keeps me out of trouble

Just for those interested ... the Equipment Stack in waiting.



From top
AV8805 prepro
1500-5, DSP, 1500-5, DSP for actives
ADA1250-6 for VP180 center, 4 M5 bed surrounds, and shakers
ADA 1000-8 for front/rear M3 heights and 4 M3ow (currently L/R/C mid tops, and center height)

The center height and mid top is for Auro 3d which I don't know if I'll keep ... so these 4 speakers could be repositioned as front and rear tops (if I ever upgrade my prepro)

Rich, are your ADA amps quiet? Any hummmmmm?

I'm using a pair of ADA1500 and DSPs for the LFR 1100 actives, an Integra Research RDA 7 amplifier for the center and 6 of the M2OWs, and a Marantz 7025 for the rear 2 M2OW surrounds. Definite hum out of the LFRs.

I'm also using a Marantz 8805 processor. My center is a VP160, thinking about a 180. Twin EP600s.

Pretty dramatic for home theater. Not entirely sold on digital amplifiers.

This system is in an untreated and pedestrian den. Neighbors don't like it very much.

If I remember correctly at about 2 feet (maybe 3) I started to hear some hiss. Sitting at MLP all was quite. Although, the ambient level in the room could have been masking it.

That gives you an idea but it’s not really a great test. It’s dependent on the noise out on the 8805 (for however I had it setup at the time), ambient room noise, and the sensitivity of my ears. To really do this test you’d have to terminate the Input at the DSP and measure the SPL out in a chamber. Andrew will know … ask him.

2x, if your talking 60hz … no, no hum … ahhhh, that I recall that is … when I get setup again I’ll listen for it. Chance are if present, and not coming from the speakers, you might try dampening the case. If coming from the speaker I’d look for ground loops.

Yup. Don't know if it's a 60 Hz hum, I try not to go near them without output. I'll check.

Hey rrlev, ( can I just call you Rich…? )…..

Thanks for posting your photos. Heck of a project you have undertaken. Wow. I’ve been loosely following along amongst the other threads. Really nice work. I love that you are taking your time and learning and adapting as you go. I agree, no one, professional or not, will ever put the detail and care into the work as much as a DIYer. I installed my own wood stove in my old house bc all the local “ professionals “ couldn’t satisfy my questions. So I dug in and learned. And it turned out great and passed the inspection. DIY can be frustrating but usually ends in satisfying way, in my experience anyway.

A question…..this might sound totally stupid, but here goes…. Why not use MDF as one of the layers of your walls? If it’s good enough for the speakers we all love them why not the walls? Or is it TOO dead or inert?

I’ve started measuring out my basement space and seeing what shapes and dimensions will work to build a dedicated space down there. Still pretty concerned about the ceiling height ( 7 feet )…..no issues with my ceiling height in our living room at 12 feet!

Keep up the good work! It’s inspiring to see. Cheers.

Tyler, Rich is fine. I go by either.

When I originally planed the HT, before the house was built, I was worried about moisture. So I went with OSB rather then ply. Never considered MDF because …

OSB will hold up if it get wet (although the edges might swell if it stands in water) where MDF will fall apart. OSB is stronger and you can screw into it and it will hold. MDF is extremely dense. If you don’t drill a pilot hole a screw or nail would be hard to get in. Plus there is a high chance of the MDF cracking and/or lifting/flaking the surface around the screw. Even with a pilot hole a screw may come loose if there is enough vibration. There is also the issue of flex. OSB holds up way better if it’s going to be flexed. MDF will fall apart if flexed enough. … I’m pretty sure, although not 100%, that MDF is stiffer and therefore less desirable for this application. Basically, MDF has its applications. IMO this is not one of them.

That all makes perfect sense. Not a practical medium that mdf. OSB is the most cost effective it seems and the better product in terms of application.

Nice AXIOM stack in that photo as well. The tower of power.

Where within your house is the theatre located? Basement? Are you dealing with any concrete or below grade?

( point me to another thread if you’ve already described all this before…).

I’ll keep following along your build to inspire mine and learn.

Listening to this right now. Peaceful evening listening. I’ve been so hell bent on loud emotional impact and everything lately I’ve forgotten how great the tranquil music is. So gently. This is nice simple album.

https://open.spotify.com/track/15sJNtoaGbtfafu3nJWXXe?si=mAMa_3SORf-3m23J313SEw&dl_branch=1

Edit: This too, so nice. Oh that bass. Beauty. And that cymbal way out left , very nice.

Prince - Diamonds and Pearls , jazz.

https://open.spotify.com/track/3yArsNjOHHr7FF0pxDFhwo?si=JqQP0ZQiRsyQdIeYYzobQA&dl_branch=1

The HT is in the base basement and concrete on three sides. The last side is an interior wall. The rest of the basement is a walk out to the back. The concrete walls are 10 feet high and about 7 to 8 ft of that is below grade. It varies a bit front to back.

Sounds like you are built into a bit of a slope or hillside if I’m envisioning that correctly being a walkout.

That’s a great ceiling height to work with. Very nice. I’m assuming your floor is slab concrete…are you building up a subfloor?

Which orientation are you using? L R channel facing the interior wall or the opposite?

I guess what I’m wondering is what were your considerations with the concrete in terms of how it will sound? Concrete gets a bit of a poor reputation overall in terms of sound quality and yet it has redeeming qualities and some great benefits too. Zero criticism at all , I just simply don’t know what to think when it comes to concrete and sound reproduction. Or is it all moot as you’ve built a purpose built room with in the concrete with its own surfaces for the sound to interact with? I guess it’s more about the bass and the concrete’s relationship…

Yes there is about an 8' drop in grade from front to back

In opposite order ...
You walk in from the back of the theater onto a raised platform which is ends directly behind and warps around the sides of the main seating (I'll have to post the drawings). The main seating is one step down and is on a carpeted floor (build: carpet | carpet pad OSB | floor muffler | concrete ). The platform is also carpet.

The 10' height was a compromise as originally I was aiming for a basement height of 11'
Some of the trade-offs considered:

House, comfort, and zoning:

• How high do you want your house relative to the street
• How much grade do you have to work with
• How deep is the water table
• What does the town consider a basement v.s. a floor (usually some % of wall below grade)
• How many steps do you want form 1st floor to basement
• Garage height (steepness of drive way, steps to 1st foot, steps to basement)
• Landscape grading

On the theater

• how big of a screen are you planning
• eye level of viewers
• how thick is the floor and ceiling (i.e. what's the finish dimensions)
• how much room do you need for speakers above and/or below the screen
• any furniture below the screen to account for.
• projection angle: if you stand up do you block the movie (depending on the projector might not be avoidable)

One solution to some of these limitations would have been to sink the theater floor down a bit from the rest of the house ... that is if you are not worried about the water table.


Concrete is interesting. It has lots of mass and if naked will reflect most of the sound energy. That said it can conduct sound. My dorm in college was made of concrete. Someone was playing his stereo pretty loud below me and in my room all I could hear was boom, boom, boom. Went to the dorm room below me to complain and it was pretty quiet. The stereo that was playing was two floors down. Think it was hitting the resonant frequency of the concrete wall. So, the dorm room below me was at a null. Mine unfortunately was not.

I suspect that with all the isolation I have in the HT that it will not have problems with that type of transmission. As far as bass energy reflecting off the concrete and back into the room ... it has to get though all that material twice. I think the walls themselves will have more impact than the concrete. My plan to control the low-end modal energy is to use 4 subwoofer to even it. We will see, nothing is guaranteed at this point.

Sounds like it will be a wonderful home theater!

I'm putting up all the ceiling layers first (before the walls). With only a 1/4" between the top of the wall and the ceiling I think this is the best/only order I can do it in. So, today most of the ceiling OSB is up.


Tomorrow we will start on the next 2 layers: floorMuffler and first layer of wall board. They will be installed as a unit. The floorMuffler has some adhesive on one side (covered by the white strip in the pic below). Since it is 4' wide I can just lay it over each 4'x12' wallboard panel and adhere it in place.


BTW: Getting these large panels up is greatly simplified with the wallboard lift. It was well worth the $179 I paid Harbor Freight. A single person could hang all the board with this and with two it's a piece of cake. Actually I don't think I could have done the job without it. After I'm done I bet I'll have no trouble selling it on craigslist.

Not much to say except great attention to detail. Worth the wait to do it right!

Once drywall is on you should consider getting carpet ordered. Not sure what lead times are in your area, but here its all over the map. Might be a few weeks away.

In the first phase, the platform will be rectangular and stop just behind where the main seating is to start. Since the seating drawn in the plan is custom and still unknown I've delayed it till phase II. Since the platform hugs and warps around the seating this last part of the platform will have to wait till then ... so,

In phase 1, I'll have a temporary couch and depending on what the carpet guys tell me I'll either put in some cheap temporary carpeting or carpeting I can extend later.

Anyway there is time ... After all the ceiling wallboard is up I'm gonna have to add shims for most of the clips on the walls as the studs are not lined up perfectly and some are bowed. Some of these shim will need to be as much as 3/4" thick ... that's pretty bad. It's an extreme example of the first guy in causing next big headaches ... and the owner (your's truly) a lot of money.

The theater is designed for flexibility in expansion of future channels and a possible Hail Mary on future formats. The current plan is for 7.4.6 for phase 1 (see below). If prepros with over 16 channels ever come down in price it would be interesting to see how much of an improvement say 11.4.8 would make. But for now we will live on earth

Note: the plan below is a bit out of date with probably the biggest change being that the top and bottom center speakers are now planed to be just one VP180ow behind the screen and a M3ow for center height. Most other things are little changes like adding alternate rear speaker wires at approx +/- 160.

The grey areas are the angle ranges for the bed speakers (angles in red outside of walls)
A red + indicates a speaker wire in the ceiling and a red T indicates a speaker wire in the wall. The 7 inner +'s are for tops and the rest are for heights. The blue line indicates as step down into the front of the room. The main seating is on this level. Bed speakers are red and heights and tops are purple.

What brand of residual channel did you use? I've been looking at the PAC international sound isolation clips and hat channel.

The channel is from Home Depot ... It was the least expensive I found and was conveinently 15-20min from my house.

The brand of clip is Whisper Clip ... lots of places on the web carry them
I pick them up from Trademark Soundproofing

On your additional layers for the ceiling are you leaving a small gap between the wallboard and the ceiling boards each time? It's been difficult finding information regarding the second/third layers as the butt up each time to the wallboard.

Very nice.
Another great build thread. Interesting stuff.
The room will double as a bomb shelter i expect.

Inside floor joists: safe&sound | air gap | safe&sound
then nailed on the bottom of the joists 1lb MLV | over that clips & channel (which by default is an air gap)
attached to the channel ... the HT ceiling (which is what I think your talking about) ...
no gaps:


Note: The boards are staggered so the seams don't fall in the same place.

No, I meant where the wall and ceiling meet. On the first layer on the ceiling there's supposed to be at least a 1/4" gap from the edge of the ceiling board and the wall studs. I was just wondering if you left a gap between each subsequent layer of ceiling boards.

all layers of the walls are under all layers of ceiling with 1/4" gap

2nd layer of wall board going up on ceiling!

Very nice. Always exciting when things start taking off.

The ceiling is complete and now working on the walls. I've been putting finalizing my in-wall/in-ceiling speaker connections ... It's time to commit so I can prep the walls and ceiling for them.

The plan was to find a connector that was attractive and unintrusive as there will be lots of these will be showing. It needed to be less than an inch deep to fit with-in two layers of wall board. I also wanted something which didn't stick out too far from the wall.

Needless to say, I didn't find anything I wanted ... so I did what I always do ... designed my own. I had two versions in mind: one with the typical dual banana plug spacing and another which I though might be more interesting ... so I prototyped that one first:





I designed it so it would accept a snap on cover ... just in case I didn't want to see the connectors. Anyway, I'll probably prototype the other soon.

Very nice.

Black Friday sale starts today. Time to upgrade.

I know it is still the construction phase but i have to say, this room looks really ominous. You sure it is going to be a home theatre?

I'm sure i've seen something like that somewhere. I was looking for recessed plugs like this many years back and opted to cover over the main plates for now until i actually needed jacks.

The requirements were a little tight. I needed a box which was no deeper then an inch and not protrude out more then 10 cm (to fit behind an on-wall).

So you made those with a 3D printer?

I did

I would say i'm jealous, but i'm not actually sure what i would do with a 3D printer. I can't think of any projects for which it would be so handy. In your case, very handy.

It comes in handy ... even if it's just to make a stand-off to get some spacing right ...
or that part which broke on your head phones ... this has gotten a lot easier now that you can do 3d scans with your iPad/iPhone.

Officially into the thread hijack now, just how big a part can you print with your specific setup?

I've been reading about the various types in MaxPC mag to which i subscribe and have for almost two decades now. It is interesting stuff but i still can't think of a lot of things i would use it for to justify the cost.

Ender 3D V2 .. prints ,I think, up to 220 x 220 x 250 mm

It's inexpensive at $300 USD but you'll want add another $50 for an auto leveler. (Otherwise you'll spend 10 minutes leveling the bed before each print ... and if you don't do it, or don't do it right your print will probably go badly (and you get to do it again.)

I took a look at the unit.
Love the video showing the GUI. Do you have to learn Chinese first?
https://www.creality.com/goods-detail/ender-3-v2-3d-printer

Are the materials recyclable as plastics go?

Actually I use an open firmware upgrade for it … but to answer your question the standard software comes set to English … but if you want to learn Chinese you can change it

No problem ... PM me if you have more questions on it.

Most of the channel is back up. Somehow we must of lost a bunch of clips because we ran out. After searching for a while I just ordered more. If I find them some lucky person will get between 20 and 30 clips for the price of postage ...

So, while we wait for FedEx, the first layer of the front wall went up.
Here's a 360:

At that stage my room made a “boing” sound when we dropped tools. That was with all walls and ceiling insulated and two exterior walls with vapour barrier and ceiling boarded.

Curious if yours does this or not with vinyl on? Board two walls and let me know. BOING!

Great progress keep going!

What are you doing for the HVAC? I see a high return on the back wall and a lower supply in a equipment closet by the entry door. Is there a mini split AC unit going in as well?

No Boing but it gone from real dead to having a bit of an echo.

I thought of a Split until but couldn't figure out how to hang it without putting a big hole in the wall. I thought of getting a split floor unit but the HVAC guy wasn't thrilled with the idea. I ended up connecting to the house system for supply and just dumping the return in the hall. It may not work as the basement might want heat and the theater might want cooling. In that case I have a few options. 1) play games with the basement temp when in the theater ... i.e. switch between two thermostats (theater and rest of basement). Might just disconnect the theater and pull the supply from the hall. If I get real ambitious I might attempt to break out the theater into a third zone. We will see ... haven't got there yet.

I wonder if you could sandwich mlv between the two sheets of drywall as opposed to using green glue. It would be easier to hang if you could attach it to the second sheet of drywall on the ground.

Green Glue and MLV are two different things.

MLV sattempt to dissipate sound energy by making it move a mass. Good for the lower frequencies. High frequency will just be reflected back. Green glue on the other had is suppose to dissipates a wider range of frequencies by allowing the sheets of wall board to slide against viscous, never drying, green stuff creating heat.

Prototyped a wall mockup of the connector box. Rather do it now than find out 34 boxes later that there was a glitch in the plan. There is actually a lot of stuff which could be screw'ed up ... so I need to verify that

- at least 6 inches of wire fits in the box (to install the connectors easily)
- that the wire is strain relieved (don't what to break any acoustical seals).
- it protrudes no more then 0.25" so it would fit behind an on-wall speaker
- everything fits with-in the 1.25" space of a double layer of 5/8 wall board.
- it's acoustically sealed from the wall cavity
- the connector plate sits flush when with connectors installed & using 10 AWG wire
- connector plate needs to sit tight against the wall board

Note pic below is without the acoustic sealant



Took 2 prototypes to get it right.
Next step ... Mass production (at least for me) ...

Each run of 7 boxes takes 21.5 hours. The pict above is the third run. The upside is that I only need to keep an eye on it for the first 30 minutes as once the first layer is down it's usually good to go.

While that's going I'm in the process of cutting into the MLV and moving most the in-wall speaker wires ... I stupidly used the measurements from an older plan which had the MLP at 12.5' from the screen. It's supposed to be 11.5

Luckily MLV is very easy to patch with a bit of vinyl cement.

Thats pretty impressive! Great idea and design.

I think this might be officially the craziest intensity at building a home theatre i've seen yet.

Thanks Trevor.

Yeah, I kind of go a bit overboard of design and test. Back when I was doing software consulting some managers loved me and others hated me. You loved me because you knew the design and code would be right the first time (at least no major bugs), well tested, and very maintainable. You hated me because I took so long. Have a few funny stories about that but we will save them.

Save them for a trip to Boston?
Don't know if i'll be through there anytime soon.

I put up the electrical wall. It's OSB, floor muffler, and green glue wall-board sandwich so I can screw all the electrical power stuff to it. It's about 3' wide and held by 6 rows of channel with 2 clips a piece. It's rattling badly. So I tested the front wall which currently has a single layer of wall board. It also rattled a bit but not as much.

I'm plagued with this rattle stuff. I've looked at it a few times now and discover something off each time. The list of (possible/probable) rattle problems found before this were:

• Over torquing a wall board screw pulls the screw hole in the channel outward causing the hole to enlarge. Now besides the screws rattling in the hole they no longer hold the wallboard onto the channel. Not good if the ceiling falls on you! At the time, I thought this might be causing the rattle. Now I think the rattle was really something else.
• the vertical alignment of the clips was off. This had the issue of having the wall weight distributed unevenly over the set of clips. The clips holding the wall would be forced downward sometimes shorting to the wall while some clips had no weight allowing the channel to rattle in them,
• The studs were not all in the same plane. Some were bowed, others miss aligned. This pushed/pulled the clips twisting the channel. So some clips wanted to twist up and others down. Again some clips had no weight and were probably rattling. If you look closely at the pictures of the open wall with channel over it you will see the clips had to be shimmed out to get them onto the same plane.

This time I'm pretty sure I know what's going on. But you're gonna have wait for the next post to find out.

[quote=chesseroo]Save them for a trip to Boston?/quote]
When this is fully finished I'll throw a party

Ah geez that sucks for sure. One of the negative things i read about use of metal channels for HT came back to potential for rattles. For us living in lower Manitoba means building/living on mud, essentially. The house moves seasonally, or parts of it. Cracks, lifts, slopes, in walls, ceilings, floors, drywall, all very common. In putting our HT together, we stuck with materials that wouldn't rattle if such a house shift popped a screw or misaligned something.
There's pluses and minuses.
All that being said, i mentioned long ago about some rattle in our back wall that relates to the QS8 located near the sound, but i've never been able to track it down beyond something in the wall structure in the general area. Thankfully it only presents itself on loud, bassy occasions and once all the new surrounds come in, things will be adjusted. However, that could make it worse rather than better.
We'll see.

In our old house we had a rattle that showed up after we got all of our 5.1 Axiom system. I narrowed that one down to the electrical panel enclosure door. A few soft door bumpers solved the issue.

Perhaps setting up the new sub in the room and playing back some bassy material will help as you search for the rattling source.

Ok, I think, the weight of the wall pulls the top of the channel down creating a gap with-in the clips top slot. This allows the channel to slide up and down in the clip as the wall vibrates. My thinking is that the channel then whacks into the clip slot’s end and creates the metallic rattle sound. (Note: whack is my official engineering term which comes form slap’in your brother upside his head when he’s annoying you . )

Pict 1 weight of wall creates small gap at top of clip

pict 2 wall vibration causes the top of the channel to slide upward causing the rattle noise


Before moving to solve this … could it be a non-issue as:

• my hand vibration technique may be more extreme then sound vibration would be
• it's behind a sealed wall, so the rattle would not be heard
• It will be masked by the sound that created it
• It must be present at other installations of this system. If it was an issue it would have been taken care of already
  

Let’s play it safe and assume it’s a problem. To show my thinking (so you can run though this with me) the lists below state a theory and in blue my thoughts on it.

• The channel may not have enough spring to keep it fully engaged in the clip when under load. this might be the intent of the clip's design. Supporting this theory is that the channel ends which have less spring are more likely to rattle than the clips in the middle. The problem solving this is that I would have to try a different manufacture’s channel or try to bend the channel I have. Both solutions are not appealing and have risks (not to mention monetary and time impact). I'm also not really sure it's the designer intent
• The clip may be a bit rough causing chatters if the channel moves. clips look pretty smooth. Don't think this is an issue
• The whack is the main cause of the rattle. Very probable
• The slot's top curve pushes the channel back causing channel vibration. possible
• What ever the cause it's the channel's vibration you hear think this is key

Not sure I preventing the whack or movement is the way to go here. The design could be that the channel should move in the slot. I think I'll try to dampen the channels vibration and see if that works ...

While checking this out more ... when the channel is pulled down it has a bit of play to vibrate in the slot. So this is my new main theory.

I'll test out both dampening the channel vibration and dampening this movement.

Have you thought about contacting the channel manufacturer to confirm how this should fit together and if this is expected?
Just looking at the metal on metal contact there makes me cringe.
How many hangers are there that could vibrate and potentially create a noise from this?

Right now I'm waiting for some acoustic caulk to set for a bit. I've applied it to the joints where the channel mets the clip. On one test where I allowed it to sit for an hour it seems to have worked incredibly well. Let's see how it does after giving it more time.

I imagine genieclips or RSIC-1 clips would have a similar issue as the whisper clips as far as channel vibration unless the hooks were slightly closer causing the channel to be compressed more and eliminating the possibility of rattle due to weight of the walls.

https://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/kinetics-isomax-sound-isolation-clip/

Something like this would probably prevent rattle.

The acoustical caulking seems to be doing the trick. My application isn't pretty but it allows the channel to move in the slot and so far kills the rattle ...



I'm going try this on the electrical wall and see what I think

Some people call this art.

I'm curious, over time with that stuff dry, crack, expose the metal on metal contact again?
It would be a heartbreaker to have some sound rattle return in 5 years knowing it is all now behind the wall.

It's not suppose to. Acoustical caulk is supposed to stay pliable. Exactly how long ... don't know. A quick google came up with this:
I imaging you need to check with the manufacture of the product you're using to get a real number.

They use the word 'permanent' but in reality environmental conditions (low humidity) along with mechanical pressure (in this instance the constant movement of the clip up and down) could eventually sever the material. Unlikely?
Probably.
I just hate the what ifs.
Considering your project is as far along as it is, this is probably a solid solution. Going back to a design phase, these are some of the ideas a person ends up changing. Maybe you would have opted not to use metal channels now, or perhaps you would have found a rubber clip system, etc.

Funny how much you plan these out and can still come across changes you wish you could have made or thought of earlier.
Grab that sub and crank up some low frequency noise in the room and see if anything else rattles before you close it all up.

Guess I'll goop it on a bit heavier and hope for the best ...

Yup! If it did it again I'd skip the clips and maybe the channel. BTW the life-time of rubber is also limited ...

The problem with that is you need to close it up in order to check it
I guess you could close in one layer, check, and then do the next ... but each layer changes the dynamics

In retrospect do you think resilient channel would have been a better option?

Test what you can, when you can. It's about all you can do.

I went resilient and screwed every 6 inches. Still had a few random rattles in corners due to sub loading.

More screws fixed it up. A-ok.

No easy way out.

If I did resilient again it would be single-ended ... no clips
Kind of feel like Etna ... "No Capes"

That's what I ended up going with, RC-8 resilient channel. Originally planned on clips and furring channel but the adjustments to the doors expanding the walls 3" out was too much. 1.75 inches is a lot easier to accommodate. We did a sound test this weekend. I turned up a movie and music to reference level and sat upstairs to see how loud and how much sound transferred through the subfloor and hardwood flooring, there's no insulation in the ceiling right now because we are finishing wiring. The sound wasn't overbearing although it could obviously be heard. It wasn't loud enough to interrupt normal conversation speaking levels and this was directly overhead of the speakers and sub. I feel like with what we have planned the sound will be reduced to a minimum and what we primarily need is the mass to stop the lower frequencies as they were the most notable.

Canes ... think you saved yourself a lot time, money, and headaches with that decision ...
What I'm doing is just not worth it. If only I knew what I know now ....

The sheer number of articles and forums on the topic is almost overwhelming. Although I did see a few comments from drywall installers that were completely inaccurate regarding installation. One interesting experiment I came across used interior/exterior carpet glue instead of green glue and the tests had better results for the carpet glue. Apparently the indoor/outdoor carpet glue stays tacky and doesn't harden just like green glue. If the experiment were accurate the carpet glue is significantly cheaper than green glue.

I’ve seen some interesting claims … like using toothpaste as a substitute for thermal paste. Testing that suggestion out is just a bit of time and zero money. But testing out carpet glue … that’s one costly experiment.

The carpet glue was interesting but the experiment wasn’t in a controlled lab. He simply measured sound volume at different frequencies. If I had a small room I might be willing to try it but the sheer size of my room there is no way I’d be willing to make that leap. Watched another series made by a physicist that said green glue was a farce too. He was essentially saying the same thing. That any non-drying liquid would work just as well. He said regular caulk would do the same thing but didn’t actually conduct any tests.

Well money already spent (green glue) and I’m not really 100% sure if it bought me a lot isolation wise. I know the claims but even those are only a point or two on the STC chart … the decision to go with it was really a % cost thing … not that much in the overall cost structure and if I didn’t do it I’d always regret it if I was not 1000% happy isolation wise.

That's actually my fear. I'll get finished and it won't be enough.

It's never enough.

That’s not helping

One of the interesting things about all those articles is that they all seem do a lot of hand waving. Very little practical detail on what to watch for and exactly how to do it. I've research this quite a bit and it's quite obvious how lacking the info out there is.

I originally hired a PRO to this. But after making him redo the first wall layer twice (because of rattling) I ended up taking it over myself. In hind site , it's obvious, I hired the wrong PRO. This stuff takes specific knowledge and you can't afford a "PRO" who's learning on the job. You most likely are not going to get end product you're expecting. Note: on the rattling my PRO told me that it's not a problem ... that I would not hear it. So I called the guys who sold me the clips ... they told me that it should not rattle and they would not close up the walls if it did. That's another issue I've learned the hard way ... don't take a "PRO" advice if it goes against your instincts. In the past I've always been burned ... from plumbers to financial advisors.

Now that I'm doing it myself, I find I have to test, think, and correct a slew of issues as I go. I've had to back track a few times. It's my hope recording this here will be valuable for anyone who may try this in the future.

I'm going to take care of hanging all of the channels on the ceiling and wall myself. I fortunately have someone I know really well who hangs drywall. When I get closer to that point I'm going to have him come over and look at the job and tell me what he thinks needs to be done and see if that matches what I know needs to be done. Even though I know him if he's off on what he plans to do I will purchase a drywall lift and do it myself. I can take me time and make sure all of the screws are put in between the joists to eliminate any possibility of shorting out the channels. I have come across two things as I've been planning my projector and screen. One I don't have enough room below the screen for my center channel on stands with a 150" screen, biggest I can do comfortably with a center is 135". Secondly, I'm using an adjustable mount for the projector because I will have some leeway once the screen is hung to make adjustments to make sure the projector lens is below the top of the screen and at a perfect 90º angle to screen.

Not much going on here ... so I thought I'd post something ...
Printing the connector boxes was the first time I ever printed something in mass. A hundred+ things at 3 hours a piece gets you thinking ... maybe I should upgrade the printer to run a bit faster. So ...


And while I had the sleeving out (the black weaved cable covering ... usually keep a few sizes of this stuff on hand ... That last roll is actually shrink tubing to keep the ends from fraying).



I thought I should do up my LFR speaker cables ...

When the Active LFRs were introduced besides giving you an incredible deal on speaker/amp combo's Axiom also threw in a custom built cable set at no charge. And they did not disappoint ... the cables I received where top notch. The actives need 5 speaker cables per speaker. Their cables were each 12AWG wire (obviously made for Axiom as their names is printed on the wire), nicely strained relieved in a gold plated double banana plug. The stranded ends had been dipped into a solder pot so you could easily insert them into the plugs ... very pro. Each of the five wire were marked with colored shrink tubing at each end so you could tell them apart.



This was very nice but 5 wires to each speaker looked a bit messy. So ...

That looks nice and clean. Where do you source the tech flex at? Parts express?

Which brand of HDMI do you like to run? I needed a 30 ft cable and went with an active cable because I was worried about not getting full 4k 60hz at that length of cable.

Wow, looks great. I should do something like that.

I know you weren't asking me, but I'm also curious what everyone is doing for longer HDMI cables. I got a 30' Furui cable a while back, and when my picture kept going out, I was afraid it was my new TV. Finally isolated the problem to the cable. They replaced it at no charge, but then the replacement failed very quickly too, so I'm done with that brand. I've had good luck with BlueRigger, but I haven't had to do any HDMI 2.1 stuff yet. Seems like there are a lot more options out there now, so I wouldn't know where to begin.

I found mine online at Amazon.
It was just like this:
https://www.amazon.ca/Entry-Cable-B...ve+velcro&qid=1636737421&sr=8-15

Is there any brand name of the manufacturer for the Axiom cable?
I bought some from Axiom a long time ago but i'm not sure which set of speaker wires i have which came from them. I have some long lengths here at home by "Allied Wire and Cable". I'm not 100% sure it came from Axiom though or if i bought it somewhere else. The stuff is terrible. The sheathing is degrading to the point where all the cable inside is oxidized BUT also gummy from the cable sheath. The sheath itself almost feels sticky on the fingers, tacky. The wire itself is probably fine to use, but in setting up to use the switcher this week, i had to use Deoxit to try and get the newly cut ends cleaned down to a new copper look. Even THAT wouldn't take all this gummy gunk off. I have two other brands of speaker wire (one was Ultralink and the other was Prolink, Made in Canada) and the sheaths are perfectly fine, smooth, like new, the Prolink has a clear sheath and the copper looks perfectly fine, no oxidation and both are equally as old. None of these were purchased for more than $1/ft.
I wouldn't buy anything by this Allied manufacturer and would have to know the company Axiom uses to make theirs. I want to replace this crappy Allied stuff though so i might have to make a purchase for 60 feet. It would either be from Axiom or Solens.

I looked at Monoprice and a few other brands but settled on Zeskit.
https://www.amazon.ca/Premium-Cable-Wall-Vision-18Gbps/dp/B07TW6R7NZ?ref_=ast_sto_dp
I had just bought a 6' 8k comptabile cable and then decided to move the media cabinet to another wall and of course now i needed a 20' cable.
[sigh]
Anyone need a good 8k 6' HDMI?

From everything I've read once you go over 35 feet you need to use an active cable and runs longer than 50 ft right now cannot support 4k @ 60hz. I went with a monoprice active cable. I'm running electrical conduit up to the projector to make it easier down the road to replace any HDMI cables because I know technology will improve and also the wires will eventually start to fail.

I've seen some cables using optical lines instead of copper for longer runs but my understanding is that they cannot get certified as being compliant with the HDMI spec.

I need 35 and 25-foot cables for my two different 4K displays. I use Monoprice 'active' cables for both and have not had any issues whatsoever. I see the last one I bought is not in stock. It may have been replaced with 8K? https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=14131

They are directional and marked to remind you that one end is the source and the other is the display.

Good to know about the Monoprice. I will have to remember them when I finally get an HDMI 2.1 pre-pro.

I looked at the optical cables but there is a jump in pricing compared to the active. If it takes optical to get the required picture on the projector I will upgrade and use the active for my 4k tv.

https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Ca...mp;psc=1&refRID=VW0RCFZMTSSWQ0A20WPT

This is the Monoprice I ordered.

I just buy it off of Amazon … preferably something on a spool. find that 1/4, 1/2, and 1” width cover anything I do and that 100ft spool lasts a while.

I haven’t had to do anything longer then 10 feet. But to answer you question I’ve only gone by whatever people say on the reviews and never seem to buy the same cable twice. So far I’ve been lucky.

I’m going to need a 25FT+ HDMI for the HT. So, I probably have to ask you when I get there

The wire was branded with Axiom’s name ….

Chess, that’s great stuff for when you know you’ll need to change out wire now and then … also 2” is huge …
The stuff I’m using has no Velcro closure and is cheep … 100ft cost something like $10, $15, $20 for 1/4, 1/2, and 1” rolls.

Right on. Thanks!

Fwiw, I’ve had great luck buying B stock HDMI cables from the Princess auto surplus section. They usually have Monster in stock these days up to 50’. Picked up a dozen or so in the past month.

Monster Cable?
Is that still a thing?

I really like the velcro part. I can snug in wires when i realized the loom size i bought may have been a quarter inch too small. Will matter less now that i'm moving the media cabinet to a new wall. Less speakers to run over to that area.

Got any pics of the Axiom speaker wire?

The really nice Ultralink stuff i have now is alot like this:
https://www.electronicsforless.ca/u...ree-speaker-cable-100ft-30-5m-11072.html
I might buy more but i don't need 100', more like 50-60.

The wire in the cable pics above is Axiom. If you are looking for pics with the strands splayed out. . Check out its product page. I have a lot of 12 gauge speaker wire (mainly monoprice ofc) which I think is just as good at 1/4 to 1/3 the price (I use it for more than speakers). I can take a pict of that if you like …

Gotcha… the stuff I’m using expands when compress to ~twice it’s size (you will loose length so cut it accordingly)… that’s what I was trying to show in the pict:



Once all the wires are in you smooth it out and hugs the wires

Ok an update ...

I decided to put in some wood strips (3/8th strips ripped from 2x4s) to hold the MLV away from the channel. (see 1st pict). When I vibrated the channel you could hear it whack'en the MLV in places. Once again a questionable need for a sound you'd probably never hear ... yet another one of those safe then sorry decisions ... yet another delay ...

But the first layer of wall board is now mostly all up


In the middle of the room the last full sheet (of this layer) is being prepped. On top you can see a bunch of cut OSB pieces with matching floor muffer. These are being screwed to the back of this board so there is some wood backing to hold speakers, attach molding, or put in electrical/speaker boxes.

Screen wall:

Been exactly where you are. After drywall it gets easier!

Seamfilling started?

Wallboard is done but we ran out of accoustical caulking. While we wait on that we starting working on floor.



I'm also working on designing the audio cabinets in the back. It's a little tricky as the the sub panel can not be blocked and I'm planning a base cabinet in that area to hold a few amps. Code requires an unobstructed space in front of electrical panels that's no less than 30" wide, 36" in front, and 6.5' to 7' in height. So my plan is to be able to quickly move the base cabinet out of the way. The counter top will be removable and cabinet below will be on rollers and designed to move out of the way without disconnecting any wires. I'll also put a removable cover over the panel to hide it.

The area in back for the with a built in for most of the audio gear. In indent you can see where I'm thinking of hanging the electrical panels. FYI: they are 8.25" lower then they seem since the floor at this location is higher.

Looking good!

Test fit of the in-wall speaker terminals


The optional cover slides over


The look with a speaker wire connected. I'll probably make/paint the cover and optionally the connector to match the wall.

Ninja terminal block. Or a sniper.

Like a ghillie suit for speaker connection.

Most impressive!!

Looking at the final positions for my new surrounds i was thinking about fixing up one wall socket with a banana plug setup such as this but since the other 3 probable locations place the surround speaker overtop the main line outlet junction, i thought screw it; it isn't worth my time to get that fancy. The wire will come out of a capped junction box without a banana jack.

Yours look good. That's a nice printed unit.

Floor and platform are starting to come together ...

Beautiful work Mr. rrlev. Are you doing all the work yourself? How about some nice bronze floor electrical outlets?

Best regards and good luck with your impressive project!!

2x ... I have help. My first design had those (bronze floor outlets) but as things progressed I found I didn't need them.
I have outlets in the baseboard and in the platform riser (right behind the main seating).

I've always thought that bare wire or spades make a better connection than bananas. Bananas are, of course, more convenient.

2x, Very random.

There is alway a bit of resistance at every connection.
2 connections if you use banana plugs: Bare wire to banana plug + banana plug to 5 way post ...
v.s. bare wire to directly to 5 way post

How much resistance depends on a lot of factors but in most cases it's not a worry.

@rrlev, What speaker are you using for center channel ?

Is that the second row seating riser? If so, are you utilizing it as a bass trap? I was wondering about the gap at the bottom front left, is there a purpose for that space? Also what is that red material on the floor, is it for squeaks/rattles or moisture barrier?

These are a great option because after making connection with screws you can apply solder through hole in connector. Very tight fitting into posts on speakers and AVRs.. I use ‘em.

https://www.parts-express.com/Gold-Plated-Screw-Type-Banana-Plugs-14-8-AWG-16-Pcs.-091-354

Most likely a vp180ow … hopefully they will let me trade in my vp180

Just an FYI tip for anyone who is interested …
Once I’m into low gauge numbers and larger metal parts I give up on the soldering iron and switch to a small butane torch … it’s much quicker

The gap is for duct work. That’s floor muffler and is there to help isolate the floor from the concrete. There is a vapor barrier under that. Floor muffler will also be run between the joists and ply for the platform to prevent squeaks & I hope it might provide additional isolation.

Just reporting in with a current pict. Have a great holiday!

Happy New Year! I can already envision a wall to wall 2.35 AT screen.

What is the finished height of your riser? Is it filled with insulation? What materials are you using for the walls, some of it so dark?

Hey Rich. I just installed the screen I linked to you in a new build - a 100” version. Same Aeon AT screen series. Heads up the frame is extremely thin. Plan on painting your front wall matte and dark for slight overspill if you cant tet the picture bang on lined up.

It’s 8.25”. That is the most I believe I can do and keep the step down comfortable. I think it’s close to, the max step code wise (but I’m not totally sure)

yeah I know. Current plan is to use some automated masking. I’m still thinking about some of it’s mechanics but it’s mostly designed.

Trever, I assume this is with their AcousticPro UHD screen material.
Did you check out any 4k video and how close could you get (did the weave become a problem at some distance)?
I’m particularly interested in .8 to 1.1 x the width

It is a pretty coarse weave. I’d say 6’ closest. I can get pics next time Im on site.

Overall really nice screen. Gain borderline too much for laser projector. Verging on hot spotting/blowout on highlights.

From seated distance after calibrated setup non issue.

6’ is pretty good for an AT screen.

On taking a picture …To be useful the picture would have to be at a known scale and have enough resolution.
A bit more work than just snapping a picture and may take more time then you want to spend or I can ask for.

But here’s what I think it would take …

.My screen size is a 150”. So you would have to zoom out the projector to get a 150” diagonal (131” width) .
Then take a picture with a ruler in it 17” wide (think that’s the width of the largest sheet of photo paper I have .. have to check when I get back home).

4K UHD is 3840 pixels in width. At 131” that 29.3 pixel/inch.
A 12 megapixel camera (4247x2826) would get you about 250 pix/inch at 17”
Which is about 8.5 pixels per projected pixel … hopefully enough to also resolve the weave.
so a 12 megapixel camera would probably be the minimum needed.

I can then print it out to scale, tape it to the wall, and get an idea of what it would look like.

Done

That will be great Trevor.

BTW: Was able to look up the paper size … it’s 13 x 19”
So, a 17 to 19” pict width will work.
Also, there is no rush as I will not be home for at least another week and even then there’s a lot to do before I need to order the screen.

Thanks

Between vacation family stuff and now tax time again nothing has been done on the HT.
Hope to start up again next month at least finish priming the walls, finishing up the speaker terminals,
At which point ... I'm setting up the sound system.

Of course the screen I was looking at jump $400 the other day ... have to see if it comes down again.
Can't complain much I did manage to waste almost a year since I was last considering it. I keep telling myself
the big advantage of waiting is there is more options ... that has certainly come to pass on the projection front ...

Just announced the Epson Pro Cinema LS12000 4K Laser Projector
It's a bit more pricey than I was going for $4,999 ... but it if it meets it's claims it's untouchable at this price point!
I really can't wait for the reviews.

Check out the feature list:
A full 3840x2160 resolution (4x pixel shift), laser light source, 3 LCD imaging @ 2700 lums,
14-point white balance, auto iris, dynamic contrast ratio up to 2,500,000:1. HDR10, HDR10+, and HLG high dynamic range,
with power focus, zoom, lens shift, and cover, fast 36-bit processor, 2 48-Gbps HDMI 2.1 ports supporting 4K/120hz, input lag <20ms (serious gaming), eARC ... yada, yada yada ...
On bit depth they claim 10bit HDR, 100% RGB (kind of like to see wider color space like Rec.2020), YCbCr: 4:2:2 @120hz and 4:4:4 at 60hz ...

It sounds like they threw everything they had at it not to mention the 3 year warrantee and a projector mount ...

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07RBCG5Y5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

Going to install this in a couple weeks. More traditional weave. Would suit your build A-ok.

I received a pair of M5ow a few days ago (side surrounds for the HT). To test them out I hooked them up to the family room system on a couple of small tables, up upside-down (so not to block the ports) and about 1-1/2 feet from the wall. While I was at it my wife and friend came in and wanted to watch "Encanto" (a new Disney movie). God, the trouble they gave me about how much time it was taking (as the wires kept falling out of the T connectors ... being rushed didn't help!)

Well even setup like that I was surprised with the sound ... Didn't do any critical listening, just the movie ... but wow ... don't remember the bookshelf M5's being that good.

Tomorrow I'll have to listen to them without the EP500 going. Won't have a lot of time in the next two weeks but eventually I need to test a few things: 1) how much difference there is inverted v.s. right side up at different heights and 2) if hanging them on a FMB is a big compromise v.s. directly on the wall. Unfortunately, they didn't come with a insert to hang them on a FMB (as I expected them to) ... I'll have to come up with something

Wall board taped and mudded, walls and ceiling primed and wiring mostly complete.

So what's happening:

• Found and ordered the main seating, the projector, and the screen
• Drawn the seating on the floor to figure out the rest of the platform and sub placement. Spacing is a bit tight for the left and right subs (the picture above is one placement for the R sub and R wide. This location is doable but not great. The right wide placement really wants to be over that sub. Idealy I'd like to stand the sub up but i'm afraid it may effect any wanted reflections off the wall and might be in the way of the wide. Think I'll have to setup the LFRs and try the subs in different locations ... there are only a few locations which are viable and none are ideal. I want to try this now in case I need to push the seating back a bit. (the cheap seats in front of the main seats is another reason to move it back a bit)
• Choosing paint colors and thinking about aesthetics. So far think the screen wall will be black and the ceiling a dark grey. Have a few ideas for the side and back walls. Hopefully painting will happen next week.
• Modifying the speaker boxes which haven't been installed yet. One of the box's screws is too close to the holes in the wall board. On the first ceiling box I did the screw fell into this hole and stripped some insulation off both wires. I found this out by measuring the wire resistance (talk more about that later). Turned out the wires were not touching but that the sealant I'm using is slightly conductive. What a mess cleanish that stuff up ... and painful getting it off the wires inside a hole. Think I can fix the wires but it's tight. The changes to the speaker boxes is to drill a screw hole in a different place and attach spacers to keep the wires away from the screws. In addition i'll add spacers to hold the box flat ... print those this weekend

There is more but this what i'm working on at the moment.

Opposing surfaces appear parallel. Is that so?

Yes they are parallel. I did toy with a design where the walls stepped out a few inches over a 5' span and then fell back like a ramp wave but tossed it due to lack of room. The drop back contained LED lighting to light the ramp in front of it ...

Damn. Good thing you're not too far along. You can start over.

Lookin good!! Great job so far. Going to be tight as planned? Cool you found a couch to suit your curve plan.

Seating was a real problem. Nothing out there really fit the idea of a slightly curved couch with reclining seats. So I bought theater seating and compromised with a centered love seat. The curve is created by a big wedged arm. In the end I could only get 4 seats in.

Reread my write-up above … “speaker boxes” was referring to the speaker connection boxes and not the speakers … Which was how it read on the reread …

I Just bought an HDMI cable for the HT:

25' 8k HDMI fiber Optic Cable from Amazon (~$30)

After reading up on HDMI it seemed that getting a non-fiber HDMI cable that worked in the longer lengths (25ft+) was kind of iffy. So, I decided to go fiber. Now I'm trying to verify that it actually meets the 4k/120hz spec. But I think all my 4k DVDs are 24p ... at least that's what comes out of the player. I'm hoping to find a setting to get 60 out but haven't figured that out yet. Anyway, the above cable is working fine at 24 so far.

Just an FYI: I was able to get the DVD player to output 4k/60hz …
The HDMI cable had no issues. If one of the notebooks can do 4k/120hz I might test that … but since I really don’t do much gaming it would be just to see if it made its full spec.

Thought I’d put up an update.
Still waiting on the projector and front row seating.
Trying to figure out the carpet. I have access panels for running wires in platform but the carpet guys tell me the seams for them will not look too great. So looking into how to hid them better.

In the mean time I’ll start on the trim and installing the tops and height speakers.
Here’s a pict of the current state …

How did the sound isolation work out? Had a chance to test with the door on yet?

No, not yet ... the doors (inner and outer) will go on last as they will be a bit tricky.

The good news is that the projector will be here Thursday and the screen probably with-in the week.
Which means ... I better get moving ...

Unfortunately, a wrench might be thrown into the plan as my brother sent a email today that he (and family) might be coming to visit. So things might have to sit. We will see as he's a bit unpredictable.

Front Heights, Mid Top, and the projector are up ... working on rear heights.
The floor is pretty dusty ... so everything I touch gets white smudges on it. Already tryed the vacuum ... perhaps a mop will work ...
Still waiting on the screen.

Anyway, here is a pict.


I didn't bother smoothing out the back wall since it will be behind the screen and false AT walls.
Test of the Projector on a black wall ...

Didn’t smooth out the ”black” …

Organizing Speaker wires and electric. More on on this later.

Are those the final colours or just primer?

That's a good use of the on-walls for the ceiling speakers. I just can't bring myself to run more wires and add more speakers for the Atmos effect. I'm tiring of all the house renos over the years. Still in the midst of one.

Those are the final colors.
Dark enough that it should look black when the lights are off, flat (paint) to minimize reflections, but light enough to give the room interest.

Current state … still waiting on seating

Over the last week I've been trying out the theater and have made little progress. Still waiting on the front seats. Still need to image the LFRs as I know they can do better. Still need to get the center behind the screen. Still need to treat the room, put in lighting, find the right positions for the surrounds, finish the platform, get a carpet, build the doors and built-ins, yada, yada, yada

First though, I will be adding some logic to the the 8805 triggers to trigger and power up/down the Amps and Subs in the right sequence.

So, even without treating the room or perfecting speaker placement to my satisfaction ... The sound is incredible. Excellent in the front seats. The 2nd row still needs work but people are still impressed. I'll play with it a bit but suspect the jog in the back side wall is going to be problematic which might require addition speakers to smooth out the sound.

The large screen is an experience even though I feel the brightness is on the edge for HDR (in a totally light controlled room). Still there is no question it's a real movie theater. The few people who have experienced it have been blown away.


Anyway, my first full showing was Baby Driver ... (Great movie ... one worth owning)
Lights On:

Lights Off

My seating has arrived ...



I'll post another picture when I get them setup ...

Since your room already sounds so good, you should quit while you're ahead.

Mojo, one is never done improving the sound of a room. Although, there is alway a point of diminishing returns.
Besides, why forgo a little comfort?

Awesome!

I would recommend having your carpet and furniture in there before doing a baseline rt60 measurement.

If you think it sounds incredible nowwait until you dial in your subs and reign in decay times.

Very excited for you! Just great work!!

What did you end up using for a screen? Maybe pm me.

It's really hard right now to work on the HT. Besides watching more movies in the last few days than I have in the last 3 months. My wife keeps inviting people over to check it out. The problem is that I usually have the thing apart when they show up and I'm forced to put it back together again. For someone who was not all that interested, feigning indifference and tell everyone it's my project, I think she's more exited about it than I am.

Oh, here's the seating setup.




I'm still trying to figure out the exact placement. May have to move the front row back a bit for a few reasons:

• when the seats are extended walking past them puts you in line of sight of the projector. The laser is pretty powerful and can ruin your eyes.
• My wife already thinks the screen is too close and it's only going to get closer when I move it off the wall 6 to 8 inches to put a center behind it
• Music wise the LFRs are not imaging enough at the front seats. I'm still working on it. The back seats are imaging well.

Keeping me from moving them back too far is that if I replace the old couch in the 2nd row with seats similar to the front row, I might be outside of my listening window.

Thanks Trevor. The sound is awesome but I’m sure I can get better. Before I had the seats in, a hand clap took around over a second to die down. Haven’t tried it with the seats as I was too busy watching stuff.

I’m looking forward to doing the tuning to see what can be done … especially for 2 channel listening. But it will be a while. Have to finalize the placement of the seats and modify/finish the platform before getting carpet. I was saving a rug to use temporarily in front but the moths got tor it before I did. Anyway, as done as it is … there is still an amazing amount of stuff to do.

DreamScreen UltraWeave V7

After researching AT screens I had a couple of concerns: having enough lumen/screen gain, for my screen size, to achieve HDR and having a having a fine enough screen texture not to see it or have moire issues with 4k and beyond.

Without testing these things myself, I needed to rely on others to do side by side comparisons since a lot of screen manufacturer exaggerate their gain numbers (Some to the point of being fraudulent … like the 1.3 screen sample which looked darker then the .97screen it was taped to). I searched for recommended viewing distance to screen size because I wanted to sit closer than most (a 1.1 viewing distance to screen width). Many screens were silent on this spec. Some, like the elite UHD AT screen, If you search hard enough quoted recommended viewing distances much greater than this. This screen was something like >1.5 if I remember it correctly.

After working though many choices, I decided on the UltraWeave material. Unfortunately, it also blew my screen budget.

Love that whole winch and crane system. If i could have a portable one around my waist to save my back from just having lifted my ADA1500, now THAT would be engineering!

This house is a completely new one built exactly where our old house was. Both had/have walk out basements in the back. The old house had a garage in the basement which exited to the back. Half the backyard was blacktop. Getting machinery and materials into the shop was easy since you could drop it right in front of the shop door. The backyard in the new house is all garden, stepping stones and permeable patio. There is no way to bring a 700lb machine into the shop that way and I didn't want to ruin my vision of a natural outdoor space by creating one. So, I put in an I beam trolly system at the back of the garage. It works quite well and gets used more than I thought it would.

I think i'm almost more keen on seeing some pics of this beam system in action than the HT, almost.

After having lifted the Parasound Halo A21 into place (about 65lbs), bent over, cramped close to the floor, fingers barely fitting along the sides, i think there needs to be better solutions for this heavy gear.
Even the ADA1500 coming in at near 60lbs too, well, my back isn't getting any younger.

Rumor has it Rich's room sounds worse than before he finished it.

It’s not finished so your rumor is a bit premature

I just boxed up my VP180hp since I traded it in for a VP180ow (so I can put it behind the screen).
Unfortunately, the on-wall has been sitting for a few weeks now waiting for me to install it.
Need to make that a priority …

Is the 180OW HP?

I don’t think so …

That's OK if you won't be listening at reference levels.

Room is only 16 x 21 x 9+ …. MLP is only 12 ft.
Don’t know why you’d even consider an HP ….
Unless you were contemplating suicide by blowing your ear drums out.

Your original 180 was HP so I thought to myself, how the heck is he going to off himself by blowing his ear drums out if his OW isn't HP?

Ahhh, the original was a refurb ….. bought because it was advertised at a price I couldn’t refuse….

The HP spec was just a freebie

Ahhhhhhh...yes. I forgot to remember that.

Rich, do you have surround-sound out of your actives yet?

Last thing I did was take down the screen (so I could build it out for the 180ow).
Which required me to move the actives.
Since then one emergency has led to another keeping me from doing anything HT related

So, no … haven’t got the active setup properly yet.

To answer your question … for movies no … but play the right track and you’d swear that the surrounds were “active”

Excellent, excellent.

Ever wonder what it would sound like if the sound power curve wasn't on top of the listening window but above it? Or if they had another set of high and mid drivers on their outboard sides?

best guess … the image and stage would start spreading and fall apart …20’ wide grand to ambient piano of god …
What do you think / guess

With regard to the sound power reigning high over the listening window, maybe to some extent we can do that with the boundary gain compensation rotary switch on the DSP. Axiom's published LW and SP curves are measured with the BGC at neutral position. In my room, as I switch to FAR1 and FAR2, the stage expands horizontally to the wall boundaries which are 5 feet away. I even get a wrap-around effect. Most amazingly, fidelity, images, depth and width do not suffer. The soundstage expands and the images follow. It is as if the ALFRs are generating new space.

That BGC increases the output of the rear array by 3dB at FAR2 relative to the front mids and tweets. Since my room is not overly damped, I expect the FAR2 setting has the SP riding higher than the LW. That would mean I am hearing more reflected sound over direct sound than I would at other settings.

Dr. Toole has said that for a well-designed speaker, we hear about 17% direct sound in a typical room. (Well-designed means horizontal LW with declining sound power and no resonances in either curve.) The rest is all reflected. I think with the ALFR, some of that theory is out the window and we are likely hearing less than 17% direct sound if our rooms are not critically damped. And it sounds absolutely fantastic!

I've fooled around with the direct/reflected ratio. I've even eliminated the front mids and tweeters and was able to get narrow sound stage tracks to sound wide with good imaging. But the fidelity fell apart. I've lead myself to believe that if we can have control over the SPL of the front mids and tweets, we would likely be able to make all recordings sound spacious. But I don't think just a volume control would work. It would have to attenuate some frequencies and boost others. The reason is, as you boost the reflected sound over the direct, the frequency response is altered because you are hearing more of the room and what you have on the boundaries and in the room acts as an acoustic filter.

So maybe we need room correction but room correction that operates separately on the LW and SP.

As for drivers on the outboard sides, maybe those can help with the directivity for the room correction I described.

What you describe makes me think that the next big improvement for axioms actives could be DSP auto customization by doing room measurements around MLP.

Exactly.

"We don't believe in traditional room EQ solutions because they can't fix directivity errors. So we built our own which fixes everything."

And the wonderful thing is, we will be able to take advantage of the numerous generous Axiom programs to more economically upgrade.

Was in my photos and came across this pict ... it reminded me to post it for you ...

Had some time so I thought I’d post some thing
Trevor, you might like this … a wall board hoist is sure useful:

Makes putting up or taking down a projector, speaker,… a one man job.


hosting the frame for the screen


The sub panel and some of the electric is in. Currently working on getting the platform ready for the carpet and finishing all the electric. More on this later ….

Well, Can't say I've done much on the HT since the last post. Been working on other projects ... the latest of which is a rain water collection system.
So for the last few weeks I've been digging trenches for the pipe and getting yelled at for tracking dirt into the house .

Anyway, was binge watching the Mandalorian with my kids (in the HT). When in the middle of the 4th episode the center channel starts distorting like crazy. Think it was heavy clip (This has happened before but went away before I could figure it out). So, I hit the front power switch on the ADA1250, and the distorted dialog went away but surprisingly was replaced by 10 seconds of crackling noise on more than one speaker. Hmmm ... Gave it a minute to cool down, turned it back on and all was fine for 5 minutes then it happened again. I'm figuring the 1250 supply is overheating. Not sure if it doesn't have enough ventilation or if something is going ... it sits over the ADA1000 with about 2" between units. The prepro is over the 1250 with also 2" of space. I'll try increasing the unit spacing using some scape 2x4's under the feet and test it again with a thermocouple in the box.

The pic below has the new 3.5" spacing between units ... if it happens again and the temp is reasonable I might have to send it back. If it is too warm I'll add a fan ... it was planned anyway (if I ever get to the cabinets).

No way! No spacing needed!!

That shit looks awful. I'd punt you out on your ass if I was your missus.

The scrap 2x4 risers are only temporary to see if it helps … so far the temp just inside the vents stays around 40 degrees C +/- …. Makes me wonder if it is a thermal problem. I’ll have to do some longer sessions to see if I can make it happen again.

BTW, If you were my missus … I’d already be gone
Just sayin

I checked some other forums, and the crackling and distortion issue might something more mundane: there's a single loose strand of copper speaker wire that's touched the chassis or the opposite polarity.

If it were a modern AVR setup, the protection circuitry would immediately shut down and flash a self-diagnosis message to check all wiring. A pre/pro + amp setup wouldn't have those failsafe mechanisms.

It could also be a wiring issue in the center channel itself, but I would check that last. I figure it'll be a 1 or 2 hour job on your hands and knees to re-twist all the speaker cabling ends, maybe more if it's in a closet or hard to access spot. This would be a good time to recruit some child labor.

Good thought but if a single loose strand of wire cause this I’d think it would happen right a way not 4 hours into viewing stuff (or go away when the amp cools down).

A picture of my wire ends.



I dipped them, so this is not an issue … no loose strands



I believe the axiom amps also have short protection…

In any case I’m not really sure what is happening … I was assuming that a amp rail was dropping in voltage but now I’m not sure it’s the amp … it could be that the input signal is clipping since I’m not totally sure I shut down the 1250 (I forgot that I swapped the 1250 and ADA1000 amps). Think I shut down both because the dialog disappeared when I did … doubt that would happen if I just shut down the 1000. Anyway have a few theories… just hope I don’t blow a speaker trying to figure it out.

Finally made some time to look at the suspected ADA1250 distortion issue. Connected up my scope to the center channel and over a few sessions (watching a few hours here and there) I finally got it to start distorting again. Anyway definitely the ADA1250 ... although now that I proved it ... it decided to completely die ... So something was going and finally went ... I guess on the positive side it's going to be easier for Axiom to diagnose now.

While the ADA1250 is out of service ... I'll repurpose the ADA1000-8 to run the center, bed surrounds, and mid tops (the front and rear heights will be the only casualties during the wait)

Started watching Guardians of the Galaxy vol 3 on a flight home … the sound was so bad through Delta’s free giveaway ear buds that I turned it of after 15minutes (had my own phones but forgot to pack the cord needed to plug into the seat). So, the next day I watched it in the HT … fun movie and great music.

I find that you really need to tune in the volume level for each movie. Too soft and the movie doesn’t have impact … but too loud isn’t very good either for obvious reasons. What I usually end up doing is finding a scene with just dialog and setting it to a comfortably loud volume …. Most of the time that works for the whole movie. What do you guys do?

I have something called a remote control.

My strategy for operating it is as follows:

1. If the SPL is too much for me, I lower the SPL by depressing the "down" arrow.

2. If the SPL is not enough for me, I increase the SPL by depressing the "up" arrow.

3. If my guests complain, I take a non-weighted average of the desired individual SPLs and adjust up or down as per step 2 or 1.

Yes, a remote …. Great idea

I don’t like to change the volume during the movie for a few reasons:

• like to set and just enjoy it
• The pre pro displays the change on screen (may change that)
• My wife gets on my case if she sees me raise the volume. She enjoys full impact sound but given control would set the volume to “underwhelm”
• The HT sound just presents better if your not fiddling with it in the middle

That's a perfect argument for adding an audio compression setting to an AVR or pre-pro. Cable boxes used to have them, and some sound bars also have it.

Home theaters and media rooms are great. They're the perfect medium for watching a movie after you watch it first on a smart phone.

The Apple TV unit I use has a loudness limiter switch somewhere in settings but that’s not what I’m after … what I want is something which scans the movie and sets up the volume to an optimal level.

Each movie seems to be recorded at a different level and each streaming service seems to also have a different level. It would be nice to set a level and have the loudness of the nominal dialog follow it regardless of stream or content.

AM/FM radio may be a more relaxing experience for you.:D

Been spending a few hours each night enjoying the HT … sound is still pretty good even without the front and rear heights (ADA1250 has not come back yet). Figure that it will be a couple of months before I can get some time to finish it … but even unfinished it’s pretty nice

I'm curious what difference you may perceive with front heights.

Good question ... The difference for most movies is subtle if there at all ...

For the titles that it helps with ... it mainly shows up as better ambient surround and placement for things flying overhead for multiple seats ... but think I'd have to A/B test it with and without to say how much improvement each seat gets ... (which I haven't done).

One thing I can tell you is currently from a value stand point that a 7.1.2 surround setup gets you 2 seats that are 98% there. That next 1 to 2% IMO is not worth it for most people ... it's over the top expensive ... considering the extra expense of buying a higher channel count prepro, more amps, more speakers, and all the extra stuff that goes with it (wire, connectors, etc). Once that movie starts, unless you have a surround blaring in one of your ears (in a seat off to the side) you'll not notice what is missing. Currently, I've only found a few movies which actually have noticeable object placement and it's not going to make or break the your viewing experience.

For those like me, who get enjoyment from the techno-nerd aspect of it all ... well it's a different story.

Was looking at the state of prepro’s yesterday while traveling. Being a self declared techno-nerd I’m always scanning for what’s new in in the 16 channel+ market. Ogling the likes of Trinnov Attidute32 and wondering what is more desirable … that or my next car …. The big announcement with them is waveforming … placing 2 to 4 subs on one wall to produce a low frequency wave and having another 2 to 4 subs on the opposite wall to null out the reflections …

Emotive is still promising an any day now RMC-1 expansion module to go beyond 16 channels but after several years of collective breath holding most true believers have died from lack of oxygen. I get the impression the RMC-1 is underpowered in the speed department and still not 1000% in the software department … but I’ve never tried one … just an impression from the forums. Watching Emotive over the years has solidified a basic mistrust and that’s a shame as I really want to like them.

Anthem AVM 90 and AVM70 are two units I’m following. More then a few claim Anthem’s ARC (room correction) software does an excellent job. The 90 is an 8K 15.4 (9.4.6) which at $7.5k USD is of interest because it can drive 4 independent subs. The AVM 70 also is 8K but only 15.2 (9.2.6). It has a lessor quality audio chain but at half the price I’d bet it is the better value. Having not heard or tried either that’s just my educated guess … from my reading these had a bit of a rocky road … the AVM70 software wise and the 90 had problems getting out of the gate … they don’t have all the bells and whistles like Auro-3d etc but not a biggie IMO.

The newest and most compelling prepro I’m following is the Marantz AV10. It’s a direct competitor to the AVM 90, with a high quality 15.4 audio chain and list price ($7.5K USD). It has an additional trick in that a set of heights/tops can be switched to another set of speakers for Auro-3d which uses a center height and a overhead VOG (voice of god) speaker. Basically it has all the bells and whistles. Marantz’s units are usually pretty well tested before released and I trust them to just work. It’s default room correction is Audyssey (which I use but have not really dug deep enough into. My understanding is that it’s better then most give it credit for if you take the time understand it). … optionally the AV10 can run Dirac live but with all the options it will cost you another $800 or so.

Right now my AV8805 is holding me … think of it as a slightly noisier, 4k AV10 with 2 less channels, 2 less subs and Audyssey only. By the time I’m ready for that next prepro I’m hoping the AVxxx is out with something so compelling I’d have to buy it … or perhaps I’ll just get a refurb AV10 as my next placeholder to replace my 8805 placeholder

Isn't that like stepping on the brake and accelerator pedals at the same time?

I'm glad my semi-detached home is too small to entertain notions of mo' power and channels. I'm lucky having my bass optimized for every seating position, and with a single sub to boot; that's never been true for any of my previous listening rooms. Every chair is pulled away from the back wall slightly, and that made all the difference.

I imagine that active bass management like Audyssey or Dirac is a worthwhile upgrade for most people.

The Integra has my attention. I don't need as many channels as you though.

Seen Integra AVRs … do they have any prepro’s?

Sorry, not that I'm aware of. The 8.4 is an avr that I'm considering. I've kinda given up on pre-pros. The Marantz 10 is the one I'd get, if I was OK with spending 7K on one.... I'm not. I'm also in favor of a good AVR with some application to use as a backup, should my external amps fail (and they do).

So now, I think I'm just going to focus on AVRs.... Denon has one coming out this spring that also looks promising (X6800), but I really like how the Integra has balanced outs for R/L/C and two independent subs. Doesn't look as if the Denon AVR will get balanced outs.

The AV10 can be had for a bit over over 6k at the moment … less if you go refurb (which is what I did on my 8805).
Powering the front 3 with a separate amp and using the AVR for the surrounds is a smart move …

Playing with lighting … trying to figure out how I want to light the theater for three scenarios…

• lights low when people are walking in.
• Lighting when the movie is running
• Fully lit … for cleaning/working on HT

So I’m testing out some led strips and laser effects.

In the picture above I’ve laid out some RGB strips along one side of the HT to simulate the look if mounted under the base board. As you can see the screen reflects this light … that’s true even just the back of the room is lit at its lowest dimness. With my own LED drivers I can do better (then the cheap commercial driver being used in the picture). But to achieve exactly what I’m looking for (enable people to exit or come back into the room while a the movie is running) I’m experimenting with addressable RGB strips. Hopefully this will allow me to turn on just enough LEDs on the strip in optimal locations to exit safely without effecting the screen. Below is one thought on giving the HT some interest (it’s a $20 laser thing I pick up off Amazon)

I just use the retina-burning LEDs adorning all the Axiom amps and DSPs as ambient lighting.

I currently have the active’s DSPs & Amps facing each other.

This has a couple positives …

• Blue light not facing you (otherwise I’d have to cover it)
• Connectors are facing the speaker
• The rear’s of the units are easy to access
• Don’t care about accessing the front switch since the preamp triggers the amps
• Having them centered under the screen works well with the current sub placement

Cool but just so you know, amps shouldn't be stacked on DSPs due to potential EMI.

Since you have easy access to the rocker switches, you'll extend the life of the amps and DSPs if you shut them down while saving some energy bucks.

Don’t seem to have any EMI issues with them stacked. The amps and DSPs have dedicated power lines (right and left) back to the panel and are turned on/off from there. Don’t worry … Everything get switched off.

"Don’t seem to have any EMI issues with them stacked."

How can you know? The radiated E field may be narrowing the soundstage width and the H field may be shallowing the soundstage depth.

See you’ve been using the DSP as a pillow again … I’ll take my chances …

I've stacked mine orthogonally.

FYI on the prepro front … Amirm just came out with his review of the AV10. He gave it a thumbs up: Marantz AV10 ASR review. Interesting talk in the user comments on Dirac ART and if and when it will be available for the AV10. Seems currently only Storm Audio claims it’s working on thier product … Marantz claims it’s coming …

Wait until it's a retired product. By then, the firmware will be fixed and all manufacturing issues will have been resolved.

Not rushing to buy in yet … ART (hate the name … in that I doubt it is a total replacement for treating your room) seems to me to be in competition with Trinnov’s waveforming stuff … how much reality vs hype is still up in the air … at some point, after the early adopters are not complaining anymore… I might be convinced … for now it’s on the watch list

The newest Marantz lineup is pretty impressive. Has me rethinking my Marantz boycott.... I'm still leaning towards the Integra DRX 8.5 at the moment, but I have several months before I need to buy something. Do you ever watch Ripewave Audio on YouTube? He's not entertaining, but his product reviews are thorough as hell.

I just gave ripewave a 2 minute look … and almost fell asleep during it
I’ll give it another view … perhaps before bed … might help …

Yah, I hear ya.... ZZZZZZZZ....And repetitive. But he goes over everything.

My family and I are traveling to do a few days, including New Years, with my sister. On the way we visited a friend whose husband just passed. Well just learned she came down with Covid. Of course I tested positive (so far the only one) and I am now in isolation … only so much you tube, movies, sorting mail, organizing my portable, and surfing one can do. Guess that gives me an excuse to post something on the preprocessor front.

Ok here it is … Amirm came out with a review of the AVM90. Gave it a thumps up.

Get well soon Rich! Darn COVID.

Regardless , Happy New Year to you and your family.

Just reading that review. Crazy that the XLR aren’t fully balanced. Why do you think they wouldn’t be? ( other than cost savings…)

What do you run? RCA / SE , or XLR?

The XLR outputs are fully balance … they are just being driven from the non-balanced outputs. Each stage adds a bit of noise so the XLR outputs measure a tad noisier … the difference would not be detectable by ear.

I run XLR when I can.

I know you have a preference for separates, but you might want to take a peek at the new Denon 6800 AVR that's starting to ship. It might just scratch the itch.... I think it just moved to the top of my shopping list.

Oh I see. I misunderstood that bit of the review I guess. That makes more sense.

Think it was Deniro in taxi driver who said “you taking to me?”. Yeah, HT wise I’m obsessed with going to a higher channel count some day … including something with 4 subs. Right now with the 8805 I’m at 7.2.6 where each sub channel drives 2 subs. The AV10 or AVM90 would take me to 9.4.6 if I was willing to pony up 6 or $7k … but I’m happy to wait a bit more, get the HT a bit more finished, and see if the next generation of prepro gets me anything more …

Well, it is YOUR thread.

The 6800 can process up to 7.4.6 or 9.4.4 with some external amplification. Ripewave Audio has one on hand and posted his first review. He is doing several over the next couple of weeks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suaygCG03QM

I know, he's dry and bored. But still detailed as hell. Just drink some espresso or Red Bull before watching.

I appreciate the thought but the 6800 is not the step forward I’m looking for … at the moment I’m getting ok surround for maybe 4 seats. Ultimately I’d like to get great surround sound at all 8 seats. How to get there is not 1000% clear … think more channels is part of the solution… but before going there I need to first tame the room … which requires me to rework the platform and wiring access so I can put in the carpet. Unfortunately, work on the HT keeps getting put off … right now I doubt I’d have any real time before April… in the mean time I entertain my nerd itch by thinking about 13.4.18 (13 heights, 5 tops) and wondering where the diminishing returns happen

You passed that once you reached 5.1.

I knew that

But when does adding another set of channels not gain you much in object placement.

Someone got a 43.2 setup just to answer that question! The person in the picture is thinking "I got rrlev good."

(The screen capture is from HiVi Magazine #466 Winter 2022/23, associated with an article about the Storm Audio's ISP.24 Analog Mk 3 pre-pro. HiVi Magazine is available through most public libraries' online libby account for free).

Think the person in the picture is depressed … “I spent all this money and all I got was one good seat!”

Micheal, I took a 2nd look at his video list and really liked some of his comparative videos on which processors/AVR’s support auro-3d or which support wides … also seems to have an idea of what is up’n coming. I’m a bit skeptical on his claims of which unit is better sound wise … but overall think he’s a worthwhile resource… even got used to his monologue drone …

I agree with you.... Quality of sound is a very subjective thing that's tough to judge. Regardless, I will more than likely buy the Denon 6800 and use it as a pre-pro. Maybe this fall.

Good luck with your journey.

The 6800 seems like a good move … think that and an amp for the front 3 makes a great setup!

Looks like Marantz wants to play. Cinema 30 is about to drop. Not sure what it has over the 6800, but it's $1000 more. Looks cool. Might have more open real estate in the chassis.

I have 2, 5X200 wpc channel amps, and the Axiom ADA 1250 3 channel. I could go full separate with a 13-channel system, but just don't think there is a compelling reason to do that. My room is set up for a 7.4.2 system. I might squeeze a pair of front heights in, but doubt it would help much.

I’m not sure what that extra $1000 dollars gets you … so if I was choosing (without more info) … I’d probably keep the extra thousand in my pocket.