Ok gang, please take mercy on me. I've read through the forums and couldn't answer my questions so I'm posting here. Sorry if I missed a similar discussion.

I've been running an Axiom 7.1 system anchored by a pair of M80's since 2007. I just replaced my projector with an Epson 4(faux)k and now I've decided to upgrade my old Pioneer VSX-1020 receiver as well.

In doing the research, I think I was kinda doing it wrong. Driving the M80's with an 8ohm receiver. So a few questions:

1) Is there a sub $1k AVR that outputs 4 ohms and does 4k, HDR, atmos and all the fun stuff?

2) Would it make more sense to buy a cheaper AV receiver that has preouts and just send the front left/right channels to a dedicated 4 ohm amp for the M80's? (I have an old McIntosh MC2105 that isn't being used at the moment) This seems like it might be the more financially sensible route.

Any thoughts? Am I reading this right or completely missing the plot?

As you can probably tell, I really hate the idea of dropping $2-$3k on a new AV receiver because it feels they become technologically obsolete so quickly.

You’ll get the best results using a dedicated amp for the front 3 but I’m not very optimistic about finding a “cheap” receiver with pre outs to drive it with. I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago … looking for an inexpensive receiver with preouts … ended up spending $700 for a refurb. Seems that receivers with preouts start at 1k (at least in my search back then) I’ll look at it tomorrow and see if it can drive a 4 ohm speaker. If money is an issue i think it best to by a receiver that can drive 4ohms and has preouts. Then add an amp later.

The unit I have is a Marantz SR5014. Think it’s been replaced by the SR5015. It has 7.2 preouts and can drive a 4 ohm speaker. I’m sure others will have more suggestions for you.

+1 (ditto rr's thoughts)

I just bought a used Denon X4400H this past year (replacing an old Onkyo circa 2002! which was 6.1 capable). The Denon cost exactly $1000 Cdn (again it was used and is about two years old but has 4k, current Dolby Atmos specs which i probably won't even need since i'm stopping at a 7.2 config).
Finding a NEW AVR with pre-outs, prices start at the $1k mark. Onkyo tends to be a bit cheaper than Denon, but both can drive the M80s fine. If you get an AVR with pre-outs, then using your Macintosh (https://skyfiaudio.com/products/mcintosh-mc2105-solid-state-vintage-amplifier-restored-and-upgraded) would take a load off the AVR.

Try to keep in mind that maybe this AVR will cost $1000-2000, but unless you are a person that always wants the latest cutting edge all the time, a 4k AVR bought today will be good for a decade or more. Most of the tv we have here is still just in 1080i. I suspect 8k will take quite some time to catch on and eventually get into mainstream as people are just getting moved towards 4k now even though the concept has been out for years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/736142/4k-ultra-hdtv-us-household-penetration/

Surround formats change ... there will alway be that pull to get the latest ... and usually that means upgrading your receiver/prepro.
Chesseroo maybe able to sweat it out as the world around him moves on but I'd plan on a bit less time than a decade plus. Just MO.

I'm not sure 8k will ever be worth going for at home. You'd have to sit uncomfortable close to your 4k screen to want that resolution.
8k, IMO, is practical if your a video editor. Each process you put your edit through eats a bit of resolution.

That actually reads like a personal dig. Without some smiley face it's hard to tell.

Contrary to the opinions of those who get highly involved in audio as a hobby, many people who come to the forums are asking for everyday Joe advice. Not everyone feels like they need the latest surround sound format. Only hardcore HT folk consider constant upgrades every few years and with new formats like Atmos, you have to add not just a new AVR but also speakers.
This is not the actions nor thinking of the average joe.

You need to take a look at how many people do not even have a 5.1 system or consider how many people can't afford even a HTIB system which have been around for how many decades now? (over two if you are counting)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/736072/home-theater-system-surround-us-household-penetration/
If i'm so behind holding onto a DD 6.1 AVR for 15 years, what about the other 60% of American homes that don't have any surround sound at all?
Are they feeling the pull to get the latest because if so, why aren't the numbers higher and climbing fast?

Forum folk overestimate how many people are jumping on the new and cutting edge bandwagons because many you talk to in here tend to have it or are gunning for it, but we aren't the majority of people. As i said previously which i guess got glossed over, unless a person always wants cutting edge [and has the cash and time and inclination], you don't need to upgrade very often and certainly not as often as people provide advice for on forums like this.
I've had a 5.1 Dolby Digital surround system (6.1 capable) for 15+ years which is more than 99% of any neighbor we know. Our neighborhood can certainly afford such things if they wanted but our neighbors prefer spending their money on cottages, boats, cars, travel, wine, sports... Even i never bothered to get that pair of surround rears to run as the 6th channel.

Come on.
Reality is the majority of people will have an AVR for 10 years or more. Case in point, the OP has had their system for 14 years already and is just upgrading now and I didn't see any questions asking about the latest amazing format (Dolby Atmos).
So ask the basic question then, just how much cutting edge is the OP really needing based on information from the first post? (no mention of adding more speakers or Atmos installation)
Pre-outs.
4 ohm capable
4k capable
7.1 format
HDR (hit and miss with this anyway)
That's barely a 2017 specs AVR. I would be recommending an older used AVR, perhaps a 2018, save on cash and it will fill that list of specs easily.

Chess, no dig intended. I was having fun with you.

I’m with you on that the majority of people out there don’t upgrade often. As long as they can get the radio or Spotify they are happy as most don’t even connect it to the tv. Of the ones who do half bought a big box store package system. This is partly a money issue and partly one of sophistication … how much they know or care about sound and/or video. I also think a lot of people have abandoned thier receiver for the phone, ipad, computer, sound bar, etc …

So what about the OP … just being on this board tells us a lot. There is an interest in sound and once someone starts talking 4K, 7.1, ATMOS, etc they are concerned with surround formats and picture. I suspect that interest will not disappear just because they bought a system.

Ah geez don't get me riled. I been having insomnia this week and my mind is already wired!
I probably could've used a big a@@ smiley face.
Something like this perhaps?



What never ceases to amaze me is how few people I know have even a basic 5.1 system considering how long they've been on the market, how inexpensive some can be and how much these people afford for other electronics, and that they try to sell these surround sound items along side the TVs which we know people are buying (new 4k have been marketing heavy, big screen <40" LED are almost ubiquitous and cheap at $500 or less). The stats here show how fast 4k is catching on and compared to the multi-year, older stats on surround sound, TVs are being turned over much quicker.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1247334/4k-ultra-hdtv-us-household-penetration/

Possibly.
But then am i an exception to that assumption? That my upgrading should come more often because of my strong interest?
I'm not as crazy as some, like those who build HT rooms out of bomb proof materials [ahem rrlev ahem ahem], BUT i do own about five speaker sets (pairs or complete sets), 3 or 4 different receivers/preamp-pros, and spend as much on a small used car to change over gear; YET, i upgrade my AVR once every 15 years. And have no interest in adding Atmos speakers...

If i were to peg a number to it, i would say surround sound owners are primarily HTIB or sound bar based (of that approx. 40% i would say at least half). Of the remaining 20% i figure maybe 15% are 5.1 systems that came from a boutique store or are at least a brand name from a big box store (Best Buy and Klipsch systems for example). Of the remaining 5%, i suspect 4% are probably just beyond the 5.1 such as myself and the OP, a 7.1 setup. The remaining 1% are the 7.1+ club. Now 1% of USA household population (https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/HSD410219) is still pretty large equating to approximately 1.2 million households that might have a surround sound system with more than 7.1 speakers, or most likely those who have adopted Atmos.
This is just my thinking on it. I certainly haven't seen any polls on how many people own/setup Atmos in their homes to confirm. If someone has a source for real credible poll data, i would be curious to see it.

Hi Space Needle.

Denon X3700H. Ticks all your boxes. Done.

Except for the part about "1) Is there a sub $1k AVR"
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3700H-Ultra-Channel-Receiver/dp/B089XVNYVM?th=1

Availability is sparse.

X2700 is 999. My bad.

Bought a x3700H 2 days ago for a job. They are around.

Does the 2700 have pre-outs for mains or just the Zone channels?
I thought when i was looking at these, only the Denon 3000+ series had full pre-outs.

I understand your points but they are not really on topic (at least in relation to what started this discussion): i.e. if the OP might want to upgrade sooner than a decade ...

But I'll run with it ...
You know that we live in a bubble. Who we are freinds with, the towns we live in, the places we go ... we are the lucky ones who can afford this hobby ... when you look at the bottom third of the US a $500 system is quite an expenditure. You seem to like stats: ~25% of the US have a net worth under $13k and most of that is probably in material assets ... ~10% make less than 15k/year. ~9% make between 15-25k, and ~9% between 25k-35k. Not a lot of disposable income ... Day to day life may take priority over upgrading a TV.

Of those who can afford to keep up ...
People who value only 2 channel don't need to upgrade their systems often.
People who just want to watch a video and have a surround system because that was what they were supposed to buy won't upgrade often
People who value video and surround and get on the web to talk about it and constantly evaluate what's out there ... will most likely want to keep up.

The people in that last category are self selecting and it does not matter what percentage they are of the TV viewing public. It only matters that they care and value surround sound. If so ... the % likely hood they might want to upgrade if something new comes along is IMO fairly high. It might take years of thinking about it but the want will be there. Now, It's only IMO and I don't mind if yours is different.

Some people have dreamed of owning a Corvette or Firebird since high school. I shake my head when I see a 50-60 something driving around in one but I realize it's a fulfillment of a dream. My theater is fulfillment of my dream ... feel free to shake you head ... I don't mind


BTW I'd have to put the HT much deeper to make it bomb proof ... maybe in my next build ...

Thread hijacks are the hallmark of this forum.
I think we even had a thread on it once but then people started talking about best brew of coffee and all hell broke loose.

Denon x3700H has preouts.

Coffee ... Ok, now your talking ....
Trader Joes Cafe Pajaro. It's the best off the shelf brew ... Ground (burr not blade) at the courser end of the percolator setting. Gotta have the right coffee maker though, a drip that delivers the water at the right temp and rate. Now if your into roasting your own beans ...

I'm actually not a coffee drinker but the wife is. Her favourite over the years so far has been the Danish blend from Murchies.
https://www.murchies.com/product/danish-blend-coffee/
She has a small blade grinder with a pulse ability so she knows how much or little to grind for a larger grain size. I haven't seen a burr grinder to know if the grain size varies more.
Did get her an Oxo brewer two years ago that was certified by the Specialty Coffee Association which rates based on various aspects including consistency of brew temperatures.
https://sca.coffee/certified-home-brewer

I've had good luck at https://www.accessories4less.com/
In 2016 I bought a Marantz SR7010 from them for $999. It's just gone into the shop now to repair an output amp, but 5 years is pretty good for a refurb. If I could find a source to rent the latest and greatest A/V gear for $200 per year, I'd jump on it.
The Marantz is what took me from 7.1 to 11.1, adding Atmos, DTS:X, and Auro-3D. Right now I'm using a Yamaha RX-V575 as a back-up, so I'm back to 7.1 temporarily.

I would encourage you to seriously consider a dedicated high end preamp and then run an amp for the speakers.
I have been using the Anthem AVM60 for a number of years and it is spectacular in not only performance, but the detailed customizing of the signal you are able to do to tune it to your room. I do not use the ARC software at all; I find I can set up much better than the algo will. Plus you can tweak it as you add in more speakers to your system.

The AVM60 was recently replaced with the new AVM70 and I am told the 70 is even nicer, but the specs tell me that there isn't a lot of difference. You would do well by finding a used AVM60 from a guy upgrading to the new 70. These are $3K to $4K priced units and you should be able to find a nice used AVM60 for under $2K. Plus it has outputs front/rear, center, surrounds, rears, atmos and two subs (but will drive 8 subs with no issues).

Plus is does 4K video switching and upscaling. Its a very powerful pre amp. For two channel stereo, it's excellent too.

I will muddy things a bit
Anthem MRX 720 used
Canadian Made too and love LOVE love mine but I just got the 520 as I have no need to go 7.2

No bells and whistles just qaulity sound and nothing compares to the ARC Genesis sound correction

Anthem rocks!

If one of the requirements isn't that it's in stock, you can get the Yamaha RX-V6A for $650. (Only L/R pre-outs, no center).
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_022RXV6ABL/Yamaha-RX-V6A.html?tp=179
Amazon has a few in stock, but they jacked the price up to $900.

The Marantz NR1510 is $700, but only 50A. But also not in stick right now.
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_642NR1510/Marantz-NR1510.html?tp=179