Hey all,
I'm awaiting the arrival of an Oppo BDP-83 and looking for some advice with 2-channel listening. I have M22's for my mains and currently a Harman Kardon AVR-354 for power and processing. I want to be able to take advantage of the Oppo's dedicated analog stereo output as it is supposed to have a decent stereo DAC. However, I need to get information to my sub to fill in the low end for the 22's. Can anyone suggest how to accomplish this without having to reconfigure interconnects between home theater listening and stereo listening. If the AVR does processing to apply bass management and send info via RCA sub-out, it's my understanding that the signal would be redigitized and any thing gained from the Oppo's stereo DAC would be lost when the HK runs the signal through its DAC.
I'd appreciate any advice.
Thanks,
Sips

Sips, your understanding is correct that the 354 would run an analog stereo input through its ADC/DAC in order to apply bass management in the digital realm. The rest of your discussion, however, appears to be based on a faulty premise: that the DAC in the player would somehow be audibly superior to the one in the receiver. DACs these days have advanced to the point that the small measurable differences which exist aren't of audible significance. Nothing appreciable is "lost" by the HK. Use the digital output of the player and don't worry about trivialities.

Sips, although JohnK speaks with an informed authority, his opinions are not universally accepted by people who also take seriously our ... what is it, a hobby, preoccupation, obsession, delight? whatever, our friends over at

AudioKarma

took the time to review various DACS and concluded that no 2 DACS had the same sound quality. Disturbing as that may be, this conclusion is based on the experience of a group of folks who took the time to inform themselves about this question.

Here is how one enthusiast ranked the various DACS compared:

1. MDA-1000 - all by itself at the top. Nothing else even came close.

2. Modwright Perpetual Technologies P3A with CIA power supply
3. Cambridge 840C CD player
4. Grace m902
5. Monarchy M24
6. Lite Dac-Ah modified by Pacific Valves
7. Lite DAC60
8. Music Hall CD player
9. McIntosh MDA-700
10.Adcom GDA-600

All DACS sound the same;
All CD players sound the same;
All solid state amplifiers sound the same;
All interconnects sound the same;
All speaker cabling sounds the same.

Now, I respect JohnK for the congenial uniformity of his opinions and his zeal in espousing what comes close to an orthodox set of opinions on the Axiom forums. On the other hand, I respectfully disagree with JohnK.

I agree DACs will not sound the same, but I wonder if I'm splitting hairs at the price point of the gear I'm talking about? The Oppo does, however, make a point of mentioning that the analog stereo output uses a different DAC chip than the multi channel output DAC via your pick of digitals (optical, coax, HDMI) This is what prompted me to come up with a solution to using the analog stereo output of the Oppo and still get low end info to my sub without using the bass management of the AVR, keeping the signal analog from the source. This is what I'm trying to figure out.

Yes, I know that's what you're trying to figure out, but the solution might not be acceptable: connect the sub with speaker wire to the speaker level inputs instead of running a coaxial cable from the receiver's sub output. Of course the bass management of the receiver wouldn't be available and you'd have to try to blend the sub output with its low pass filter control with the "natural" roll-off of the M22s.

From Audiokarma, the proof that this test is once again useless for concluding anything reasonable or rational other than personal preference for the pretty colours of boxes the DACs came in:
We listened to approximately the first two minutes of each of the three tracks listed above, in the same order, on each DAC, with me switching cables and matching levels as best I could.

Thanks for playing the game though.
Try spinning the wheel one more time...just for luck.
And remember audiokids, the world is flat...the world is flat...

One of these might help. They go for 59 Euros in Germany. You can find them on ebay once in a while.

Well, Chess, I suppose since those folks didn't meet your standards for a true, scientific double blind experiment, you just discount their observations altogether.

Seems like you have a bit of an attitude thing going for you there Chess. Just a thought ... it's not necessary to make it personal just because you disagree with someone about audio issues. Think about it.

Holy crap, those are some big pics. Makes this thread impossible to read.

No kidding. It is giving me a headache trying to get through it with all the side scrolling.

Despite the religious wars going on here, I'm going to say that having a properly calibrated sub hooked up to your two channel is going to make more of a difference than what might (or might not be) a marginally better DAC. Just use the digial outs and let the receiver handle it.

Also, those pictures are absurd large and really, really annoying. What a surprise.

Does anyone know how I can resize those giant pictures? The originals were not so big. Sorry guys.

You could always post a link to large pics, which would avoid the need to resize altogether. I like large pics, don't get me wrong, just not when they're in competition with reading posts.

Pretty much all photo editing software has a resize option somewhere. Some web hosting sites will handle it for you as well. Flickr allows me to link to either the original size or two smaller sizes.

I agree with this as well.

The thing with hardware is that over time it gets better and cheaper. DACs are a mature product at this point. I remember coming across a post on the wholesale cost of a mid level vs high end Burr Brown DAC. It was less than $10.

Focus on what makes the biggest difference.

I was wondering what made my view difficult?? Ahh, the pic.

So are you suggesting it may be too difficult dialing the sub in if I use the speaker level inputs to the sub along with its filter?
I assumed this would be the only way to get around the bass management in the AVR; however, I think I would have to physically remove the speaker level inputs when viewing a movie if I want to take advantage of the LFE output of the AVR, making it a little inconveinient to switch between sources.
I guess I'll just have to wait and see by doing some comparing, maybe I'm putting a little too much emphasis on the stereo DAC that's present in the Oppo. I do understand that there are a lot of other components within the DAC circuit and a higher quality DAC chip may not perform to its capabilities if not integrated well within the circuit.
Sips

I really do think you're putting too much emphasis on the DAC. Any difference is likely to be very slight--and that's not because other components may be substandard or anything like that. Bass management is not your enemy, is really what I'm saying.

I totally agree with you. I want to be able to use bass management. It's just that to me it seems logical if the signal has already been converted to analog at the source (by a supposedly better DAC chip)you do not want to reconvert the signal to digital in order to apply bass management. Then convert again to analog to go out to the speakers. The less stuff you put in the way of the signal the better.

Contacted the Oppo people and the players does have 7.1 analog outs as well, so it also performs bass management. So if while using the dedicated stereo outs the sub out is also 'hot' then I think my dilemma is solved. Just waiting for a reply.

But I totally agree about bass management, especially with the M22's. They are really good in the mids, but if I turn my sub off there is definitely something lacking.

Sips

In the past, most DVD Audio and SACD players lacked bass management. I don't know whether or not the Oppo has bass management ability for multichannel or stereo for that matter.

I suggested the Reckhorn for 2 channel analog bass management. I use it and like it. I used to have an Outlaw ICBM-1 which allowed 5 channel bass management. They are out of production, and are analog-only as I recall, but you may want to check ebay for one of those beauties. (Stereophile used to rate the ICBM as a Class B component - which is for them a very high rating.)

Of course, I suppose you could get 4 Reckhorns, and 4 subwoofers for a wild 7.4 system. OK, time for bed. G'bye.