From my other recent posts you can gather that I'm upgrading my home theatre. I've bought a new TV and will soon be buying a new receiver/pre-pro and Blu-Ray player.

Now I want to upgrade my speaker setup but I'm not sure I want to pony up for all of the potential upgrades. I thought I'd list them and see what others thought would have the largest improvement in the listening experience - which is primarily TV and movies with some music sprinkled in occasionally.

Please recommend what you think would offer the largest improvement or wow factor.

• Buy M2s as height channels (either PLIIz or DSX)
• Upgrade VP150 to VP180
• Purchase another EP500 to give me dual EP500s
• Sell EP500 and purchase dual Epik Empires (or Legends) - caveat: not sure I can get these in Canada so this might be a moot suggestion
• Upgrade M60v2 to M80v3

What does everyong think?

Thanks!

Bryan

All of the above Sorry
Jokes aside, if it is mostly for movies, I would say the dual sub option and maybe the VP180 (although my main reason for upgrading to the VP180 was for music).

Bruno - I knew someone would suggest all of the above I'd like to do it all but the CEO of my house might balk at that expense. She knows about the TV, receiver and bluray (ps3) but not about new speakers. I'm not sure she'd notice an upgrade from VP150 to VP180 but she'd probably notice another subwoofer sitting in the room.

I'll most likely get the M2s as heights. That's almost a given. Not sure about the others...I'd really like to try the VP180 but not sure how much it would add over my VP150. Although it is mostly TV/movies, I do like to listen to music in PLII Music which uses the center quite a bit. How do you find the VP180 vs. the VP150?

I'd really like dual subs as well. I'm contemplating some options from Chase Home Theater (craigsub) and Epik for duals. Seems like I could sell my EP500 and get duals from them for less than the cost of purchasing another EP500. Don't get me wrong - I love my EP500 but I'm considering other options that might yield more for less (or the same).

Any other opinions?

My unqualified vote goes to the VP180 center channel upgrade.

Yes, he is unqualified.

I'm unqualified too, but there have been millions of unqualified votes cast this week.

VP180.

Do you need "more" bass or "smoother response"? A second sub is only going to give you the latter.

I'm surprised the rabid dogs of the M80 posse have restrained themselves this long.

Not saying that it is a bad speaker cause it's not but for me, the VP150 sounded a bit thin. This is due mostly to the small cabinet. For movies only, I might have been OK with that. The biggest improvement for me was for multichannel concerts where the voice tones are important (it's also important for movies but more forgivable). The vocals just sound more natural from the VP180, almost in par with the M80s. Another big improvement was the bass. A lot of concerts have the bass guitar coming from the center. That was a problem with the VP150, I couldn't almost hear it. The dual 6.5" woofers help the VP180 in this area. The VP180 has a bigger cabinet, more drivers and is overall a better speaker. For me it was worth the extra $$$, for others it might not.
I would have ranked number 1 improvement if you would do 50% HT / 50% music. Since you do mostly HT, I rank it number 2, dual subs being number 1 improvement.

I too am going to say VP180 and I can let you swap out the M60s for M80s and decide if you think that particular swap is worth the cost. I can bring them over when ever. I will just toss the M22's into use while the M80s are at your place.

You are right, Epik, strangely enough, STILL doesn't sell in to Canada and when they did at the beginning their shipping charges were horrendous. Apparently the business model is not there yet for them to get any sort of meaningful deal from a major shipper to go beyond the lower 48. Even if you can have it shipped to a US address, they won't honor the warranty. Not worth the hassle. Interesting to note,however, they have set up a distributorship in Europe.

On another note the VP180 is a large leap beyond the 150, size notwithstanding.

Low blow, Jason.

Thanks for the replies - keep 'em coming

Jason - I'll let you know about the M80s.

I thought I'd get alot of VP180 upgrade suggestions. I suspect I'll purchase the VP180 as well as the M2s for heights. I like the VP150 but I sometimes also find it a bit thin with male voices. Perhaps, subconsciously, I just want something bigger

I've kinda ruled out the Epiks for subs. I love the ideas of the Empires but not really sure if I want to void the warranty - and I agree that the shipping might be crazy.

I actually just exchanged emails with Ajax (Jack) from Chase HT. He owns Axiom speakers including the EP500 and works for Chase HT. He answered my email request for shipping costs, etc. I'm waiting to hear what shipping would cost to Calgary, AB for two 18.1 subs (plus external amp).

I'm not completely sold just yet on two subs. I need to take some measurements from the various listening spots after I EQ using Audyssey in the soon-to-be purchased receiver to see if I need more help. I don't listen too loudly so I don't necessarily need the extra output. But I wouldn't mind to see how two subs would work - plus I wouldn't mind trying a sealed sub that should have deeper extension than my EP500.

The Epik subs look like a good deal but if they won't warranty their product in Canada, you are wise to avoid them. It only takes a blown amp to send you up $#!T creek without a paddle. Either the VP180 or adding a second sub would probably be the most substancial upgrade. As you are on the North side of the 49th, you may also want to check out/contact Funky Waves as another subwoofer option.

She'll notice... it's bigger than your M60's (well, a single speaker at least). But I'm putting in my vote for the VP180 as well. And then my second vote goes for a second EP500.

OK - here's an update. I ordered M2s as height channels and the VP180 as a center channel upgrade. Looking forward to comparing the VP180 to the VP150. I'll try and compare both before and after running Audyssey to see if I notice an improvement. I'll keep it if there is even the smallest improvement but send it back if I can't notice a difference.

Still mulling over adding the second subwoofer. I've kinda stretched the budget and I'm not sure I can absorb another $1200. My wife has been good with the upgrades so far and didn't balk at upgrading the center channel. But I've never mentioned adding another subwoofer so that might prove to be the tipping point

Nonetheless, I'm considering adding another EP500 or taking a bet on the CS-18.T from Chase Home Theater (aka CraigSUB - dual 18 inch sealed subs with a single shared external 1000W amplifier).

The EP500 would cost $1200 CDN. The CS-18.T will cost approximately 1800-1900 CDN. Pricewise, they'd be equals assuming I could sell my current EP500 for 600-700 CDN.

The advantage of the EP500 is that it would match my current system and provide the advantage of dual subs - frequency response smoothing and higher output (+6db). But it wouldn't give me any lower extension than the 19-20Hz I get currently. Plus I'd be buying from Axiom in Canada and have a full 5-yr warranty.

The advantage of the CS-18.T is (presumably) much lower extension (dependent on room - see below), higher output, frequency smoothing due to multiple subs, and different sound quality due to sealed enclosure. Disadvantages - new company, purchase from the US so any warranty issues may prove to be an issue.

The biggest unknown, obviously, is whether or not I would actually achieve the lower extension. It is a sealed sub that naturally rolls off at 12db/octave, starting in the mid 20 Hz range. It depends on room gain and is therefor subject to its interfaction within the room (which, I realize, also exists for the EP500) plus EQ.

My room is not sealed or dedicated to home theatre - it is a bonus room above garage that is open to the stairs from the main floor and the hallway/landing at the top of the stairs. The room is vaulted and is approx. 2500 - 3000 cubic feet. Plus, I'd like to locate one at the end of the couch so it would not be corner loaded - but it would be reinforced by the side wall. I could place the second sub in the corner but would prefer to locate next to my right tower, against the front wall in the middle.

Anyone have thoughts on the ported vs. sealed, room gain required to achieve good usable extension into the teens, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

Bryan

You're getting room gain with the Axiom subs, too. And you get the frequency smoothing from adding a second EP500, too.

So, it seems like you're betting on getting three things from the CS-18.T over two EP500's:

- Greater extension
- Higher Output
- A preferred "quality"

Now, I am a pretty big fan of Craig, Ray and Jack. I like those guys and I think their products are going to be solid performers at a good value. I absolutely think you can count on them to do the right thing relative to warranty issues.

BUT...

I'm not yet convinced that you would necessarily get ANY of those things, especially considering the advanced DSP used by the Axiom products. You seem to be assuming that sealed designs necessarily have deeper extension than ported - I do not think this is the case.

Can you give some examples of areas where you feel like you're missing out on either extension or output with just the one EP500?

You know, if you really feel like you need "more bass", it is possible that installing some tactile transducers (bass shakers) might be a better route than more subs, and that would certainly be a more WAFFY option. Dean (Grunt) has some expertise there.

Well, I suppose I don't expect to get any further extension from the EP500s due to the DSP amp limiting its output below ~18Hz. I've been led to believe that it is limited in the DSP to not allow extension below this point. I've measured with an SPL meter and get very usable output at 20Hz but none (at least measurable) at 16Hz with my current EP500 in my room.

I understand that I'm also getting room gain with my EP500. But given the DSP limitation I'm not expecting any more extension below 18 Hz after adding the second EP500.

Besides, don't ported design inherently drop rapidly below their tuning whereas sealed subs gently roll off? I've always assumed sealed subs have the potential to go lower by design than ported as they aren't limited by the port/box tuning and the frequency drop-off that occurs below it. Of course, the sealed subs require more power and do require EQ/room reinforcement.

As far as quality - yes, this is a perceived quality difference. I've nothing to base this on other than a curiousity to hear a sealed sub. However, I'm primarily using this for HT so I don't think ported vs sealed is a big deal. Plus there are many reviews/reports that have stated the EP series (500, 600) as sounding very 'musical' and competing well with sealed subs.

To be honest, I really don't know much about this topic. I have to rely on others' reviews since it is virtually impossible to line up a number of subs in my room to do an exhaustive comparison - as much as I'd like to do that! As such, I probably due succumb to the many reviews that exist for products like the Epiks, eD, Seaton, etc. vs. the relatively few reviews that exist for Axiom.

Having said that, I do love my EP500. But without having had the opportunity to listen to many other brands/models, I can't qualify or quantify my "love" and will probably always be thinking - what else is there? Am I missing anything?

Now I know why men can be so promiscuous! OK - not sure why I just added that last comment - I hope I haven't offended anyone

Thanks for the input!

At the end of the day, I'll probably just get another EP500 to match my current one (if I do purchase a second sub). Just to difficult to make a decision and the logistics from the US can be troubling.

P.S. Can't do tactile transducers - won't really work with my sectional (which includes a sofa bed). But I'll definitely consider these for my theater room in the basement when the time comes.

Hey Bryan
I was thinking (I know it's dangerous). If I'm available for your demo with Jay I could drive down with my 500 and you could test it out and see what you think. Let me know.
Mel

Mel - that would be awesome. I haven't scheduled anything with Jay yet. I'll be setting up all the new HT gear (TV, receiver w/Audyssey, BR player) this weekend while my wife/kids are out of town. Hopefully the new speakers (VP180/M2 heights) will be here as well. Was considering purchasing the EP500 to try out but I knew that if I ordered it I would probably just keep it

I wanna see how Audyssey improves my single EP500 first. But I would definitely love to try out another 500 first. I'll schedule something with Jay and let you know.

How does this weekend sound

Those are great points, Bryan. You obviously know a lot more about this stuff than you're claiming. The perils of the internet, eh?

Dude, if you just wanna sleep with another subwoofer, that's like, between consenting, um, whatever.

I don't know. Maybe I'm not enough of a basshead. I just don't feel like the "quest for sub 20Hz output" is that meaningful. To me. If that's your bag, I sincerely hope you will thoroughly enjoy it, and will also help educate the rest of us along the way.

Wish I could be there with you, Mel and Jason. Take notes or pictures or tell us a story or something

Perils of the internet, indeed!

I agree - not sure any lower extension is really required. Guess we all get hit with upgradeitis and our quest for better and bigger. All I know is that my current system trumps most of my friends and I enjoy it every night that I watch TV/movies or listen to music

Cheers!

P.S. Purposely avoided any talk about subwoofer threesomes as that was getting a bit weird

I think you're safe as long as you avoid those new, triangular-shaped ports from Hsu.

Cheers back at you!

Those triangular ports look mean.

Bryan, can't wait to hear the new speakers and I will bring my M80s just so you/we can compare them to the VP180 along with the M60s, this sounds like it could be an all day project.

Agreed. Especially if Mel (onn) wants to join us with an extra EP500 to test dual subs. This weekend would be ideal but short notice for you and especially Mel. Would you be interested? I'll make sure I have plenty of cold ones ready at hand. Hopefully the speakers will be in by Friday but that might be optimistic given that I just ordered them.

When are you available?

Hey Bryan
I'll be in San Antonio this weekend so I won't be able to make it. Let me know if your plans change if the speakers don't arrive
Mel

I use an EP600 for my two channel set up and two 500’s for my HT. The single 600 was in my HT for a couple years. When I swapped the 600 out for the twin 500’s, I did loose some lower frequency LFE, but it was not enough for me to move the 600 back in the room. The only difference is that some things don’t rattle as much anymore (light fixtures, smoke detectors, door latches). The whole movie watching experience is actually better now as the LFE just feels as if it has me surrounded whereas with the single sub, it was almost directional. As far as the EP’s being musical, the 600 is excellent. I want for nothing, which if you knew me, you’d know for me to say that has some significance. The 500’s are great subs too. I had an Outlaw in my HT with the two 500’s, but have recently yarded it out. It is not nearly as smooth as the 500’s and was more of a distraction than a benefit.

Michael, have you tried the 600 with one 500 just to add that extra little bit of low LFE back into the HT?

No, but I did try it with both 500's. The three of them was way, way, way too much LFE for this sized room... (12 X 18 X 8) And, the main reason I went with the 500s was the 600 was more difficult to place in the room where it wasn’t physically in way of furniture. The 500’s just sit calmly under my screen, out of the way.

But really, I find that I just don't "miss" that tiny bit of extra bass extension the 600 had over the 500's. I still feel LFE as well as hear it and with two subs, it’s simply more enveloping that with one. My pant legs still get to shaking at times and it kinda freaks me out and feels like a mouse is trying to crawl up my leg if it catches me off guard. There does come a point in which too much is simply too much and folks just start arguing over what they see on a graph or spec sheet and they stop having fun (albeit some think arguing is fun).

My next theater (next house I build, …someday) will have one of those built in sub woofer systems. Forgot what they’re called, but they are basically a small room with big assed drivers that is then ducted into the theater.

Infinite baffle subs.

They're called "Lowriders." Sometimes, the same feature can be found in "Pimpmobiles."

Really, that's ALL that counts. Why do you think I have so many power tools and accessories? I've got some I've never used, but if my friends don't own one, I still win!!! Wheee!

You're a "winner", Pappy.

I think if I used that name to introduce myself to little children, Child Protective Services would spray Pam on my entire backside and slide me directly onto the sex offenders watch list. Don't you think?