Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo very critical review of the VP150...makes me wary

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Until you want to cite your source, this is worse than irrelevant. Casting anonymous, uninformed aspersions used to be called slander. Publishing somebody else's work without attributing it used to be called plagarism.

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Accurately, and articulately said, Tom

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Does he ever say anything that's not accurate and articulate? I think Tom is far and away our most articulate board member. I read his posts on threads I have little interest in just to enjoy his deft use of the English language. Three cheers for Tom!

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I like the way Baby Grace thinks.

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we're still too naive and ignorant up here to vote for a quiet, smart leader.

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Oh, and Oz? Just so you don't misunderstand, it's not the words that offend me. I have a few years on you and was a musician all my life. You'd have to use the words about 20 times a minute to catch up to me. What bothers me is using the words in a public place without consideration for those who MIGHT be offended by them. It seems to me just another example of the selfish society in which we exist. You may feel you have the right to say anything you want anyplace, but what about the right of others to NOT hear the words. I have the right to swing my fist anywhere I want. But, my right to swing my fist ends at your nose.

Jack

First let me say that I enjoyed your above post as I have enjoyed all of your posts since joining the group. They are always well thought out and articulate. I wish the words would roll of my keyboard and easily as they appear to do for you. Writing was never my strength and I admire people who can effectively use the power of the “pen” so to speak. I also want to assure you that I agree with much that you say. We do live in an increasingly “selfish society”. I also agree with John when he says we will do a 180 degree turn in the near future. History tends to repeat itself. John made two other very important points.
1) [quote john]“The problem is agreeing on what the right standards are”
Who do I want to make those decisions for me? Is that selfish of me to care?
2) [quote john]“This is not a problem for an Internet forum (if you don't like the rules and conventions, pi** off !!)”
This is basically what I said in my first post. If something offends, I move on to the next thread.

I have always made it a point to try to steer clear of posts that are dealing with the hot topics. The two main reasons for that are: a) it’s not what I come here for and 2) like you I want to make sure I communicate my thoughts carefully to avoid being misunderstood, which as you know, takes many carefully chosen words and frankly I’m not that fast on the keyboard But here I am trying to explain myself, hopefully to avoid bad “bits” between the two of us.

It’s amazing how quickly a thread can come so far a field. That is the direction it seems to have been taken. The things you seem to take issue with come down to matters of freedom of expression. It doesn’t matter if it is the words, or as you say, the use of the words in a public place. Either way it is the same thing. Fortunately, for “all” of us the First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees protection of free speech. That freedom has been abused and therefore challenged many times in our history. A few recent cases I’m sure you’ll remember.

Professor Ward Churchill’s abrasive and polarizing comments on the victims of 9/11
Professor Jonathan Katz’s statements on gays and aids
Howard Stern opinion’s on every subject imaginable.
John Rocker on New York Mets fans
And most recently Mdrew’s comments about smelly farts (Sorry Mike I don’t really think you’ve quite made this group yet) Emphasis on YET
The comments these people made run the gamut of reprehensibility. Their statements were hateful, sexist, racist, polarizing, inaccurate and just plain wrong. Do I agree with what they say? It doesn’t matter if I do, but for the record in most cases I don’t. However, as it has been said many times before “I will defend their right to say it.” I think we all would agree that if we deny one person this right, then none of us are free. I don’t believe in censorship of any kind. However I do believe in using good judgment. I try to be sensitive to other people’s sensitivities. This is a personal choice I make. Like you, I live my life to achieve a “personal” standard. But that’s my standard, not Ward Churchill’s or Jonathan Katz or for that matter Ajax’s from Cleveland Ohio. Look Jack, I think we’re a lot more alike than you might want to believe. I just don’t think we can expect to enforce our standards on others. In the end they will be judged in the harsh light of public opinion and that is the best we can expect. Is it a perfect system? Maybe not, but I’m not willing to give up my freedom to test the alternatives. Now before I wrap this up I just want to address a few specific items that may or may not have been directed my way.

[quote jack]
“We seem to have a similar situation here. On one side, there are those who seem to feel it’s acceptable to say anything, even in jest, expecting others to “endure” it or move on to another thread, while on the other side are those who feel it’s incumbent on us all to take into consideration the feelings of others. It’s obvious on which side of the argument I can be found. I’d be interested to hear on which side others can be found.

I think it is a huge leap to say that my comments on Mike’s fart story means I feel it’s acceptable to say “anything” and expect others to endure it. He wasn’t ranting. He didn’t use any profanity and personally I didn’t find what he said particularly offensive. Now if he was in my presence and gave a literal demonstration I might have been.
Would I have said it this way? Absolutely not…but that just me. It’s not the measure by which I choose to be judged in that harsh light of public opinion. I also support your right to retort.

[quote jack]
“I suspect we held differing points of view for the very same reason; it was how we were raised. If my father caught me stepping on someone else’s toes (literally or figuratively), I’d get a light crack on the back of the head, nothing abusive, just a little attention getter. He would then bend down and gently whisper into my ear “there are other people in the world besides you.” I’ve never forgotten the message.”

I especially loved this part of your post. It reminded me of my own father. I would always get a light cuff on the back of the head to get my attention. Then he would deliver the words of wisdom. The words to think about and grow on. I think your father was a very bright man. Things were definitely different back in our father’s day. The world was a bit simpler then. I’m a photographer. My world is not black and white. There are also many shades of grey. I think if your father were around these days he might give you a cuff on the back of the head and say “there are other people in the world besides you and they may not think the same as you”. Please don’t take offense, I really mean no disrespect.

I would like to end my verbosity or atrocity depending on your view
with a quote from Troy W. Pierce in his examination of C.G. Jung’s work investigating polar opposites. Dark/Light, Good/Evil etc. etc.

[quote Troy W. Pierce]
Each of us has experienced the weight of another's Shadow upon us and have resented it, just as each of us is responsible for casting our own Shadow on others. This is especially true of religion. As individuals, we must find our own spiritual path. But, as soon as an individual finds the source of their own light, they hold it close, and their shadow ends up being cast out on everything else. The stronger the light, and the closer we hold it, the larger and darker the shadow looms, until everything but your own light seems like darkness.

[quote jack]
“Are there NO standards to which we must adhere?”
reply oz
I think maybe:
Standards = Shadows = Shades of Grey. Consider diversity and hold onto your freedom. There are no simple answers. Jack, you asked people to post what side of the issue they were on. Well there you have it. I hope we are good. I have the highest regard for you and I certainly would not want to jepordize our frienship.
Peace
oz

Wow! After all that typing I'm thirsty. Hey Peter... tell baby Grace to pass that boob my way
On second thought I think I'll have a beer.

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The things you seem to take issue with come down to matters of freedom of expression. It doesn’t matter if it is the words, or as you say, the use of the words in a public place.

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10/22
"What bothers me is using the words in a public place without consideration for those who MIGHT be offended by them"

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10/23
"My objection was not to the words, or even the "use of the words in a public place.""

I guess I read this wrong. Anyway I stand corrected.
You see I knew you would see we are a lot more like each other than you think. As long as we are not telling someone what they can say or how they should say it then we are in the same camp.

As for the statement about not enforcing our own personal standard on others I wasn't singling you out or implying you were doing that. I was simply completing my thought process on how I feel about censorship and and what I believe to be inalienable rights. I said " I just don't think we can enforce "our" (as in the collective sense) own personal standard on someone else" I meant not you, not me, not tomtuttle or anyone else for that matter.

Once again I will say that I agree with nearly everything you say. I just feel it is not a perfect world (far from it) and not everyone will rise to the higher standard.That doesn't mean you don't have the right to wish they would or even to call them out when they don't. Hey go for it! You have every right. However, if it were me I would choose my battles and make it count. There again we are talking about personal standards and personal tolerances toward what we percieve as transgressions. I just don't see it here in this case. Once again this is just IMHO

I'm sorry I did not see that movie and the quote as it stands does not reveal anything to me.I guess I'm dense. If you only wanted to point out the irony or the conundrum of the free speech issue, I got that. That was the point I was trying to make with the list of people who have tested the extreme limits of those freedoms. So I guess here too we are in agreement unless there was something more I'm missing.Out of the context of the movie I'm just not sure.

As for my post about "boob on a public forum? I'm outta here" I was afraid you might take that as a personal attack.It apppears you did. I apoligize, I was being sarcastic and it's not the first time my sarcasim has gotten me in trouble. I was attempting to keep things light. I was also intrigued by the timing of Peter's post and his use of the term so I couldn't resist. You see I consider the term boob as risque or as innocent (either/or) as the term fart. I wouldn't bat an eye at hearing either term coming from a 8 or 10 year old boy or girl no less on an adult internet forum. That is the "only" reason I said some are too quick to pound the gavel on the lecturn. Let's face it neither of these words are on George Carlins list of words you can never say on TV.

Well I think that covers all your points. I also think we have bored other readers to tears. At this point I can't think of anything more to say on the subject. I hope all is well with us. I view you with the highest regard and enjoy our exchanges.
oz