Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater concerns about VP150

I'm trying to choose between the VP100 and VP150. I have room for the VP150, I can afford it, and I think it would at least *look* cool right up front with the TV. My concerns are. . .

From the website, the VP150 is "6 Ohms (Compatible with 8 Ohm receivers)". What exactly does compatible mean in this context? My receiver has a warning label saying it's for 8 to 16 Ohm speakers only. I'm just not sure what to make of that.

I've heard from some people who love the VP150, but also several who think it's too bright at the high end. They complain of exaggerated S and P sounds in dialog. I've also read one explanation saying that a lot of movie soundtracks have intentionally exaggerated the high end, in order to compensate for the acoustics of your typical theater. . . and the VP150 is simply reproducing that signal faithfully, whereas other center-channel speakers tend to roll it off.

By comparison, the VP100 is an 8 Ohm speaker, and it has only one tweeter, so it's very conventional and there should be no surprises. It would seem like a safe choice.

I have a large workroom where I'm putting this setup. . . BUT when watching movies it's usually just me in my easy chair sitting only about 7 to 8 feet in front of the TV! So it seems like the room-filling qualities of the VP150 would be wasted in this situation anyhow.

I'm guessing the VP150 might be a plus when running 5.1 DVD Audio or SACD music. I have the hardware to play those discs, but I haven't really gotten "into" DVD Audio yet.

Can someone help me decide?

What receiver are you using? Many receivers will have no problem driving a 6ohm speaker. The Qs8's are also 6 ohm and most people don't have any issues. 4ohm would be a different issue.

It's nothing exotic. . . a JVC RX-8040B receiver. 100 watts per channel.

I agree with sirquack. If you have a decent surround receiver, a 6 ohm load should be no problem.

Personally, I would go with the VP150. Even if it's bigger than you need now, you can simply reduce the output levels during your system calibration. It should have better dispersion than the VP100, and you may end up moving your system to a larger room some day.

Hello tonybelding,

The easiest way to determine which center to get (apart from the good advice given by others here) is room size and listening distance.

The VP100 and VP150 are tonally neutral and very similar. For rooms up to 2,200 cu. ft and sitting up to 10 or 12 feet away, the VP100 does a fine job.

If your room is larger or you sit farther back (or you have large floorstanding speakers and want to have similar power handling abilities in the center), get the VP150.

The stuff about sibilance is nonsense. I do extended listening tests to all of the Axiom speakers. They are neutral and balanced for rooms with normal domestic furnishings (rug or carpet on the floor, upholstered furniture, perhaps some bookcases or the like to break up reflections).

If the source material has been recorded with microphones with a presence peak in the midrange (not uncommon on CDs, and a few movies) the Axioms will reproduce it accurately. Don't expect a neutral linear uncolored loudspeaker to compensate for engineering screwups or bad recordings.

Soundtrack transfers to DVDs these days are not overly bright like some in the old days of laserdisc, where the THX curve was sometimes useful in cutting some treble. Nowadays the THX EQ isn't needed on the vast majority of Dolby Digital movie and TV show soundtracks.

See my articles in the Axiom Learning Center on Fine-Tuning center channel sound. It's important to experiment with placement in your room, which can be hugely influential on loudspeaker sound.

Oh, any decent brand of AV receiver, including your JVC, will drive 6-ohm speakers as easily as 8-ohm speakers. Only a 4-ohm speaker like the M80ti towers cause problems for some brands. For those, we recommend only Denon, Harman/Kardon, a few Yamahas, Rotel, B&K and NAD. Some new Pioneers, I'm told, will drive 4-ohm loads without overheating or shutting down. A 4-ohm speaker has less electrical resistance, hence more current (power) flows through the output stage, the transistors run hotter, and many brands (Sony, Kenwood, etc) can't handle it, so they shut down temporarily or go into current limiting, which limits power output.

Regards,

Alan,

I’ve seen it recommended on this board, on numerous occasions to go with the same center as the fronts. Several members have this set up.

Could you explain the pro’s / con’s to this? I mean, in reference to the theory besides the obvious dimensional aspects of the VP’s. I have the room under my 'soon to be screen' to place a tower, and need to make up my mind pretty quick.

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If your room is larger or you sit farther back (or you have large floorstanding speakers and want to have similar power handling abilities in the center), get the VP150.

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My soon (but not soon enough) to be constructed Media Room will be under the 2200 cu ft mark (approximately 1755 cu ft) and the seating position will likely be about 9-10 ft from the speakers.

You state "want" above so can I take that to mean a VP150 over a VP100 is not necessary? For example my Monitor Audio speakers for all intents and puposes are probably the "equal" to the M80s which will be used for music listening as well as home theater. Based on your post, I don't need the VP150 to "keep up", correct?

Am I correct in assuming that the QS4 and VP100 will be sonically "identical" (or perhaps I should say tonally identical) to the QS8 and VP150 [comparatively] in my smallish room? Is this a situation where I should buy both and return the one that does not suit the intended purpose?

It would be easy to buy QS8s and a VP150 and be done with it, so to speak, but if I don't need them over the QS4 and VP100 it would be a "waste of money" considering the system will never be moved to a larger room.

I guess one of my concerns is that if I would like to cross over the sub at a lower frequency than 70 Hz (the Monitors can reproduce lots of bass down to 35 Hz as the -3db point is 28 Hz), I would need to go with a VP150, correct? Otherwise I have my sub crossed over at a high frequency to compensate for the lack of low frequency output from the VP100 and then create a hump in the low frequncy area unless I cross over the Monitors at a frequncy to match the center. Yes?

Mike, Alan apparently hasn't been back, but hopefully wiil be able to add his input. My view, as I've indicated before, is that if you have the space under the screen, then there're no cons to using a vertical speaker identical to the mains(or similar M60). You'd have the advantages of essentially identical frequency response and dispersion all across the front. The advantage of the horizontally configured center being able to lie fairly flat to the top of the TV obviously wouldn't be relevant.

Hi Mdrew,

As JohnK pointed out (thanks, John), there aren't any downsides to using an identical speaker (to your main left and right front speakers) as a center. Keep in mind that even when you do use an identical speaker, it won't necessarily sound exactly the same, at least with pink noise, as the left and right speakers simply because it's in a different location.

But it would certainly have identical power handling, dispersion, frequency response and so on as the main speakers. If you have the budget and space for one, sure, go ahead.

On the other hand, it isn't a big compromise using a well-designed center channel speaker whose timbral signature smoothly matches the main speakers. You aren't going to "lose" bass frequencies when you configure the system with a subwoofer, as the ".1" channel routes all the deep bass to the sub or the main left and right speakers when you set the center up as "Small".

The other option of using dual VP150 center channel speakers, one above the screen and one below, running in parallel, gives you tons of power handling, excellent coverage for all listeners, plus the advantage of the two centers imaging the dialog and vocals at the center of the screen.

Regards,

BruceH,

"Am I correct in assuming that the QS4 and VP100 will be sonically "identical" (or perhaps I should say tonally identical) to the QS8 and VP150 [comparatively] in my smallish room?"

Yes, the timbral match is very close.

Unless you listen at extremely loud levels, I don't think you'd need the VP150 to match the power handling abilities of your Monitor Audio speakers. Speaking of which, British speakers as a group (with some exceptions) generally don't have power handling the equal of, say, the M80ti's, which we routinely run past 800 watts per channel in our chamber.

I don't know what the power handling rating is for the Monitor Audio speakers. The VP100 is 200 watts. Come to think of it, the timbral blend with the center and main speakers is really crucial, so why aren't you considering a Monitor Audio center channel speaker? Or, alternatively, getting two Axiom main speakers that will provide an excellent timbral match to the VP100?

Regards,

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British speakers ... generally don't have power handling the equal of, say, the M80ti's, which we routinely run past 800 watts per channel in our chamber

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Yikes! I'll remember that when I want to hear the sound of a jet taking off at "realistic" levels. Truth is that I want to listen at "theater sound levels". I don't listen to my music at concert levels. The loudest I ever listened to music (at a short duration) was with a direct feed of an Adcom CD player thorugh an Adcom GFA-535II (about 60W per channel) to a pair of Mirage M3-si speakers (inefficient). This was as loud as I would ever listen and would never listen to it at that level for extended periods (forget about the wife giving me what for). Unfortunately I did not have a SPL meter.
In addition to this, I bought the Monitors before I found out about Axiom. When I first saw the Axiom ad on a web site, I just thought "blah, blah, blah... another speaker company" not realizing that it was a Canadian manufacturer.

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Come to think of it, the timbral blend with the center and main speakers is really crucial, so why aren't you considering a Monitor Audio center channel speaker? Or, alternatively, getting two Axiom main speakers that will provide an excellent timbral match to the VP100?

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Hey I thought you were supposed to be the resident technical expert, not marketing !

I had always thought about that issue. It has been talked about for ages, ensuring that the timbral qualities of the center matched the mains. When I had brought this issue up with our local audiophile shop (where I originally bought my Mirage speakers and who also carry Montior Audio), they told me that, while they used to tell everyone that timber matching is important, they now believe that for home theater it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

This confused the heck out of me since I don't get the opportunity to listen to the effects of different drivers on home theater listening. I usually have to trust people who do listen to these types of setups for a living (much like yourself). I honestly believed that I could get away with "close enough". The Axioms use metal cone drivers as does the Monitor Audio (albeit coated). They are both accurate speakers.

I have indeed considered selling the Monitors for a pair of Axioms, especially since Axiom came out with the "Mounties". However, I'd still be fine with M22ti speakers mounted from brackes. That way I could aim them.

If a M22ti sounds the same as a M80 with just less output (and obviously less low frequency...I will use a sub anyway), then that is what I would "need".

What speakers do you currently use for listening to music?

Hi BruceH,

I currently use M22ti' s, a VP100, QS8s and an EP500 sub. The M22ti's are on an A/B switcher so I can instantly switch to a pair of M80ti's up front. In my modest living room (2,100 cu ft.), running in 5.1, the M22ti's and M80ti's are extremely close, so close that I have to look at the switch box to see whether A or B is running.

I used to use a pair of Mirage M3 bipolar floorstanding speakers in a stereo configuration with another A/B switcher that went to a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 20s running with a subwoofer.

Overall, I agree with you that assuming you have neutral well-designed main speakers and a similarly neutral center, you can mix brands. I'd disagree with the audio shop guys who said it doesn't make much difference. I've detected really annoying coloration with different brands of centers that I've substituted for the VP100 or VP150.

To my ear, it shows up very quickly on dialog or vocals, male or female, because our hearing is so sensitive to midrange sounds.

If you are going to mix brands, the surrounds are the least critical. Or rather, you're not as aware of crummy surround speakers unless you concentrate on their flaws and remove your attention from the movie and front soundstage.

Regards,

I fell in love with my VP100 right out of the box. It gives you clear, detailed dialogue. End of story. If the 150 is the 100, but bigger and better it would rock. I can't tell you if this is true or not, since I've never heard the 150. What I do know is that the 100 sounds bigger than it looks. Judging from my experience with the 100, I don't think you can go wrong either way. As a friend of mine used to say, "It's all good."

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I currently use M22ti' s, a VP100, QS8s and an EP500 sub.

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I guess I am suprised to see you use QS8s. I was sort of expecting QS4s.

As near as I can tell from the specs, the VP100 apears to be a smaller version of the VP150. You also mentioned in another post having two centers on top and bottom of the screen for, shall I say, a larger sweet spot. Since the VP150 uses more drivers and a different configuration of drivers, is the soundstage wider with the VP150? That is, perhaps the question should be is it more appropriate to use a VP150 in a wider room?

My main objective is to have the best quality sound in as small a package as would reasonably allow (hence why I sold my M3-si speakers).

In achieving this, there is usally a minimum size of speaker that would fit this requirement and I am getting the impression that, for Axiom's offerings, the M22ti coupled with a decent subwoofer should fit the bill in my future room. It would seem that the M80 simply has more drivers for higher output, however they do also separate midrange with dedicated drivers. Any reason why the M22ti does not have a single midrange and a single woofer? Was it intended that the 5.25" drivers be best suited to mid and mid low and that the M22ti's are supposed to be coupled with a sub?

I was originally going to purchase the Monitor Audio Gold bookshelf speakers until I ran across a great deal on their top model (again prior to my awareness of Axiom). Interestingly enough I didn't quite like the Monitor Audio Silver or Bronze series.

Any particular reason for choosing the QS8s over the QS4s for the surrounds? Do they sound better (or perhaps rather, fuller) to you?

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is the soundstage wider with the VP150?

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Not really. Just a fuller sound and greater power handling ability due to the extra drivers .

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Any reason why the M22ti does not have a single midrange and a single woofer? Was it intended that the 5.25" drivers be best suited to mid and mid low and that the M22ti's are supposed to be coupled with a sub?

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That is it. This is a reasonable maximum size for a bookshelf and while providing admirable bass for this size of speaker, it is intended that low frequencies are more efficiently handled handled well by a large enclosure (sub-woofer or fullrange M50 to M80 speakers).

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Any particular reason for choosing the QS8s over the QS4s for the surrounds? Do they sound better (or perhaps rather, fuller) to you?

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Personal preference. The QS8s have a slightly lower frequency response. This allows the subwoofer to handle frequencies from 70-80 Hz and lower rather than 85-90 Hz as would be preferred with the QS4s.

While some would debate that frequencies below 100Hz are non-directional, there are others that state that 80 Hz is the magic number. This likely becomes a personal preference of the final user. The QS8 guarantees that all non-directional information will be sent to the sub-woofer. For some users who have no directional hearing below 100 Hz, the QS4 will be more than adequate.

Again, this comes down to a user's perceived hearing and personal preferences. If the QS4s work fine, why pay the extra money on the QS8s if you don't need them, unless you're trying to compensate for something else?