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#124478 - 01/16/06 08:05 PM n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
adamd123 Offline
regular

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Utah
I am moving into a new Town home in the first week of April. And would like to build a decent home theater for my living room. I have a week to get all the wiring done before sheetrock goes up so I thought I would run my layout/components past the pro's first.

First the specs:
The room is open and shared with the kitchen, but the rough dimensions of just the "living room" are 14'W X 10'L X 9'H. I have a budget of 7,000 for EVERY component (besides cables) and so far I have chosen these components:

TV: 50" Sony KDS-R50XBR1
AV/Receiver: DENON AVR-4306
DVD: DENON DVD-2910
FRONTS: Axiom M60ti
CENTER: Axiom VP150
REARS: Axiom QS8
SUB: Not Sure Yet. (Axiom EP500, PB12–Plus/2, PB12–ISD/2, PB12–ISD)

And here is the planned layout of the room:
http://storage.msn.com/x1pnp_rgmi5o52cz8sSUgGPm7k7FDqeCRfAy_HoCp4l6smHNf4UMq9yOY7bKUqZcROwIFlOCxN1wlLvUhGhj-bDMdPKPxP8CupcMxr1HvGsjW-XD40C9dyQjAW8OKFSBAUH60cPmGB5LoY
(sorry not sure how to add an image)

Now the Questions:

1. I have never heard Axioms, but from what I have read they seem like great speakers for the price. I could not find any reviews on the M60's on this website, how are they?
2. Could I get away with M22ti's for my fronts for this room size?
3. With 9' Ceilings would it bad to mount the QS8's on the ceiling?
4. The center channel has to be mounted on the wall above/behind the TV (not flush with the screen or the other fronts). Will this be problem?
5. I cant think of a better place for the sub, will this placement be ok?
6. Right now I am a bit over budget, and one of the only places I can see cutting some cost would be on the sub. If I get the SVS PB12-ISD I could get allot closer to my budget. But I don’t want to compromise the WOW factor. Will this size sub be adequate. Also I should consider the fact that the far wall (on the bottom of the picture) is shared with a neighbor, and I don’t want to create enemies if I can help it?
7. Does anyone see any better way to lay the room out? I am sure not everything is to scale but you get the general idea. Also any feedback on the components would be greatly appreciated!


Sorry for all the qustions, I am just getting into this and want to make sure I dont screw anything up!
Thanks for any feedback.
Adam

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#124479 - 01/16/06 08:12 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
Ajax Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#124480 - 01/16/06 08:37 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
Ajax Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
1. They are excellent, quality speakers and a remarkable value.

2. Yes, but keep in mind that you'll need speaker stands for the 22s, which will add to the cost, bringing them close to the cost of the M60s.

3. Not necessarily. You can use Axiom's Full Metal Brackets, or Omnimounts. The FMB is shown as a wall mount, but can be mounted on the ceiling. The Omnimounts are rated to 10lb., but Axiom itself has said that is a conservative estimate, and they will support the 11 lb. QS8s without problem. If that worries you, you can go with the 20 lb. Omnimount if you prefer. The QS8s even have a threaded hole in the back that will handle the Omnimounts as well as the FMB.

4. Not at all. You can use the Full Metal Bracket again, or something as simple as this.


5. If you've got no other place, then it will have to do. Many of us have limited options when it comes to sub placement. Do the best you can, and don't worry about it.

6. If budget is a major factor, the PB12 ISD will certainly suffice. It is a competent subwoofer. You could probably even get away with a PB10 ISD in a room that size. It's just my opinion, and I plead guilty to being biased because I own one, but I feel the EP500 has a flatter, smoother frequency response. Only you can decide if the difference in performance is worth the difference in price. I don't think you'd be disappointed by the PB12 ISD. Either sub is capable of disappointing your neighbors.

7. Tough to answer that question based on your diagram alone. We don't know what your dealing with on the walls (windows, doors, etc., and your listening area appears to open to a similarly sized space (the bottom half of your diagram). We don't know what that open space is, or what's in it.

_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#124481 - 01/16/06 08:54 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
blackorp Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 107
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Hi Jack

Rick said i should ask you about the rocket ULW-10 sub.
Since you owned a rocket sub. Right now they are only $399.
Someone on this side recommended the axiom ep500 ($1000) is it worth it??? or should i consider the svs 12isd
What are your thoughts??? I am getting the epic 60 (except for the sub). I was originally thinking of spending 5-6 hundred.

thanks


_________________________
denon 3805 waiting for: M60ti QS8 VP150 EP500

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#124482 - 01/16/06 09:22 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6722
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Sorry If I put ya on the spot Jack but you were one of few that can give a true sense of how the different subs compare.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#124483 - 01/16/06 09:31 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10967
Loc: Central NH
One quick point re: the sub choice...FWIW, don't forget that an Axiom sub will match the finish of the new speakers (unless, of course, you're looking at black for the Axioms anyway in which case it probably doesn't matter).

It's a small point for many, but it was important to me since my sub was going to be in a visible location, and I know it's sometimes important to others who need a good WAF (Wife Approval Factor) for harmony after the sale!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#124484 - 01/16/06 09:33 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
It looks like you are suspending the QS8's? Might as well just mount them on the back wall.
_________________________

M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2

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#124485 - 01/16/06 09:47 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
1) I love my m60's. If you get a chance to listen to B&W 703's, they are about the same sounding, but a lot more money. Below are some reviews.

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/axiom_m60ti.htm

Also, if you go to Google and type Axiom M60ti review, there are tons of reviews.

2) I think the 22's would do fine as well in that room size, a few other members on this forum use them in combination with a sub with no problems. They have great reviews. The 60's will give you better bass though, actually in my mind it is killer bass.

3) I have 9' ceilings, but my 4 Qs8's are mounted actually to the boxed in area around our venting which is about 8' 3". Here is a pic of my DIY custom mount with shelf brackets bought at Menards.



4) Normally you want the Center to be close to the same height of the tweeters on your mains. Alan from Axiom has mentioned that it is ok to have the center set back a little to form an arc, which gives a good soundstage. Try to have the Center angled so it is pointing at the listeners if possible.

5) The sound for the sub is non-directional, meaning it does not have to face the listeners like the other speakers. If you have your receiver crossover set to 80hz, you will be fine I'm sure..

6) Subs, even smaller sized will still be heard by your neighbors possibly, there is not a lot you can do to reduce that LOOooooWWWW bass. Think about when your driving down the road and one of those young teenagers with the Booom Booom Booom drives next to you. You can control the volume though to reduce any problems. The 350 is also a good sub.

To reduce our budget you could order your Axioms from the Factory Outled and save 10%, and also 5% if you buy 5 or more speakers.


_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#124486 - 01/16/06 09:49 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
One note, you could put your sub somewhere located behind the couch, that would give you an awesome experience for watching DVD's.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#124487 - 01/16/06 10:03 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Don't forget the EP350 at less than 600.00 from the outlet, it would also go well in a room that size. It's defiantly no slouch.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#124488 - 01/16/06 10:44 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
Ajax Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
No sweat, Rick. You didn't put me on the spot.

Blackorp, I have no experience with the ULW-10. I have its cousin, the UFW-10. I suspect they are very similar. The UFW-10 is not the loudest or deepest extending sub on the market, but It's great for music and it's real tight and accurate. It's no slouch with movies either. Being in an apartment the ULW-10 might be kinder on your neighbors.

Is the EP500 worth it? Every penny! Read my answer,to your question #6 on the previous page.


_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#124489 - 01/16/06 11:29 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
adamd123 Offline
regular

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Utah
Wow thanks for the info guys!
I think you helped me figure out alot of my questions. The one thing I still a little confused about is the QS8 ceiling mount. Having the top woofer firing into the ceiling won't cause any problems? Would mounting it flush with its back on the ceiling sound worse? (so the woofers are firing across the ceiling and the tweeters are aimed down)

Thanks again guys!
-Adam

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#124490 - 01/16/06 11:44 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Hey Adam,

The QS8s are pretty flexible, just try to aim the fronts of them toward the listener (so that the tweeters and woofers aren't aimed direct). This makes the sound more difused and it works well for movies. I think Dan has a good suggestion in mounting them on the back wall. Then you could put them at about 5 or 5 1/2 feet off the floor, and a little closer together (I'd say about the same distance as the front M60's are apart).

Looks like you are getting some good help here (not surprised ).
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#124491 - 01/17/06 12:03 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
Ajax Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Any of the mounts mentioned for the QS8s should leave enough space for the top firing woofer. As long as they have 2 to 3 inches of space, they work just fine. I agree that the back wall would also be an acceptable location for the QS8s.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#124492 - 01/17/06 12:11 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
build custom mounts for the qs8's

place the sub behind the couch..

mabe custom mount for the vp150.. use metal or wood to make the custom mounts, not to hard, im making custom stands for my qs8's..


good luck, go with the 500, you will spend extra money, but it is money well spent...

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#124493 - 01/17/06 12:14 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I think the QS8s should be on the back wall but closer together than on your plan.

I'd also forget the Denon 2910, get a Pioneer DV 578A-S, super picture quality, super audio quality,put the money you save into an EP500 and enjoy.


Edited by 2x6spds (01/17/06 12:24 AM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#124494 - 01/17/06 12:18 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
I think if you had the QS8's on the ceiling literally right above the listener (if you went and ceiling mounted the QS8's like you had in your diagram), two things would be a little off.

1) You would be defeating the purpose of how the QS8's are disigned to disperse sound. The bottom woofer would be firing straight down at the listeners, and making it sound like a direct-radiating speaker, rather than scattering the sound across the room. It would be easier to say "Oh, that sound is coming right from that speaker" rather than just being surrounded with sound (how surround sound should be).

2) Having the speaker right above you really wouldn't give you the feeling of the room being filled with sound. It looks like having the speakers on the back wall would be the perfect distance from the listener. From your drawing, it looks like the QS8's are 4 or 5 feet away, a perfect distance. The sound would really fill the room much better this way. I believe sirquack has his QS8's mounted on the ceiling 4 of 5 feet back from his listening area, which is right where your wall is.


Edited by danmagicman7 (01/17/06 12:21 AM)
_________________________

M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2

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#124495 - 01/17/06 01:59 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Adam, on the QS8 question, one thing to keep in mind is that in a 5.1 setup they're side(not back)surrounds and should be separated widely enough to give a side effect even if located a bit behind you. A location on the back wall about 6' up should be fine, with the left one just a few inches from the side wall and the right one separated a bit farther than shown in your diagram, so that it's definitely to the right of the couch.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#124496 - 01/17/06 02:01 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I agree that about 6' separation is right. From the layout it looked to me like you were thinking about 10' separation.


Edited by 2x6spds (01/17/06 02:02 AM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#124497 - 01/17/06 02:10 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
No, 2x6, 6' elevation. Slightly wider separation suggested than shown on the diagram to allow for side effect.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#124498 - 01/17/06 02:32 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
adamd123 Offline
regular

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Utah
OK great input guys. I have updated the "plans" to look like this.


The only problem that I can see with the speakers being back that far is the point that JohnK brought up about the fact that they are not rear surrounds as this is only a 5.1 system. Will this placement still sound as it should? Another concern is that they are going to be about 5' behind the listener now as well, will this effect the experience at all? If so Another possiblity would be to use the floor stands to place them where they should go.

As for the Pioneer DVD player, I will def. look into it. How do Pioneer's A/V Recievers compare to DENONs? (I like things to match )

Thanks for all the help guys!
Adam

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#124499 - 01/17/06 02:41 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Adam, 5' is a little farther back than the 3' I guessed from the diagram, but I suppose that it would still work well. As I said, the right QS8 should be farther out to the right.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#124500 - 01/17/06 10:52 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
For some reason I don't really like the left QS8 so close to the corner. It seems in your setup will be hard to get good left/right dispertion in the room from the surrounds.

I was looking at your pic, and I think it would make a lot more sense to move your TV to the other wall, the top wall on the picture.

That way, the QS8's can be nice and spread out to the side. You can put the one at the very end of the right wall. I think that would make a lot more sense.

If the couch would actually be behind the QS8's, you could mount the QS8's on the ceiling like sirquack has done. That would work really well too. Just depends where you want to be sitting.

I'd say if you had your couch 7 feet back, having the QS8's 10 feet back from the front wall (The farthest back you could mount on the wall because the right wall is a partial wall) that would be perfect, with the QS8's mostly to the side and a tiny bit behind. If you move your couch further back, do ceiling mounting.

Also, you would have a lot more options to move your sub around for the best sound.
_________________________

M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2

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#124501 - 01/17/06 05:33 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
adamd123 Offline
regular

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Utah
Ok, I am not sure if this layout will actually work because there is a window to the left center of that back wall (will cause problems with the center speaker mount). But I tried laying it out like this.

I obviously substituted part of the couch for a recliner, and I am not sure if the wife will go for that, but if this layout works better I think it would be worth sacrificing couch space.

Thanks for any feedback!
Adam

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#124502 - 01/17/06 05:50 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
IMO that's a lot better layout.

The Center won't go on top of your TV? How about in front angled up below the screen?
_________________________

M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2

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#124503 - 01/17/06 10:23 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Now your talkin, be prepared to be blown away....
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#124504 - 01/18/06 03:52 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Adam came by my place last night to hear the Axioms. He seemed to like them. Let us know if you have any more questions Adam.

Dave.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#124505 - 01/18/06 06:00 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Man, I bet that was one heck of an audition. Adam, Dave can help you out with any Axiom or HT questions. If I lived closer, I would check out "THE MANOR" myself.

Dave, I'll have carpet soon, hope to get new pictures up asap.

Adam, if you buy Axioms, make sure you mention that Dave did your audition so he can get whats coming to him...
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#124506 - 01/18/06 09:04 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
adamd123 Offline
regular

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Utah
Yea thanks again for letting me swing by and check out your system Dave! Much appreciated. Your system blew me away! The Axioms exceeded my expectations, and sounded better than any movie theater I have ever been in! Although hearing his setup made me realise that I want two E500's now... (cant afford two )

Adam

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#124507 - 01/18/06 10:19 PM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Randy, you are too kind. Same goes for me, if we lived closer I'd be by in a second to check out your theater, and play some air hockey.

Adam, Glad you liked the Axioms. I'm serious about 1 EP500 sounding just about as good as 2. The reason I got 2 was to make the bass more uniform between seats. As far as volume output, 1 EP500 would do the job. In calibrating the sub, I have the sub volume quite low as to not overpower the other channels.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#124508 - 01/19/06 12:28 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
I would have to by the Air Hockey table first, ha ha. Once the carpet is installed my dad is giving me his pool table, it is very nice. We also have a FB table, that is probably what you remember from a pic.

I am very satisfied with my one EP500 and I haven't even experimented with placement yet...
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#124509 - 01/19/06 12:34 AM Re: n00bie Layout Check/Recommendations
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Maybe I am just giving you subliminal messages (like Wid) that you need an air hockey table

(You're right, I must be remembering the fooseball table, but the pool table will be excellent)
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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