Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Best Speaker Sys. Under 3000$ consideration within

A few of you may have known this was coming from me, as I hinted at it in another thread. so here it is. Although this is the AXIOM forum I believe I can get honest opinions to the following.

I have a MAX budget of 3000$$ for a complete 5.1 HT setup (musical qualities are VERY inportant to me, probably moreso than movie qual.)
Room approx. 15x18 on the small side , or 18x30 on the big side. <--Difference between the two future possibilities of room. I like to play loud at times but not deafeningly so.

eqip. that I have:

yamaha rx-v2500 its a 7.1 rec. w/(130 watts per channel)
Oppo DVD player
JVC HD56FH95 RPTV
all the game systems. so the choosen speakers will get a good dose of music, games and movies thrown at it. Looking for flat response from the speakers , not too brite on top. Sub, I want better acurate musical reproduction as, I care not at all for earth shaking, window rattling rumblings. I hope that is enough info from my end to start with for now. so . . .

here are just a few I am considering

Axiom epic 80-500 package which includes
m80 mains
vp150 center
qs8 surrounds
ep500 sub

PSB Command Performance Home Theater System
Command Performance System
Image T65 mains
Image C60 center
Image S50 surrounds
SubSeries 6i Sub

Onix Rocket Rocket HT Package # 1
RS 760 mains
RSC 200 center
RS 250MkII surrounds
UFW-10 Sub

HSUvtf-3 mk2 sub, is what I am leaning toward atm to replace any of these subs listed. That is not to say I KNOW i want the hsu, just that atm it tops my list.

I truly appreciate any and all replies, idea's on which setup you would reccomend from the few I have listed or a different setup entirely to fit within a MAX 3000$ budget.

I want the best speaker system my 3 grand will buy, so I ask all of you to please consider sharing your thoughts with me. Admittedlly, I am just learing, I have been reading online, everything from pro reviews to super fanboy rants and everything inbetween. I am learning as i go though (I think ), and a byproduct of it for me has reared its ugly head . .yes . . . Frustration . With that being said, don't be shy about throwing your 2 cents in on this most important purchase decision process, irregardless of how small or great you feel your level of knowledge is or the value of your replies. I assure u I VERY much appreciate any and all input, novice, pro, good, bad or otherwise. Thanks for your time and consideration

Stone__Man

Here is a link you might want to look at, just to give you some more ideas, Axiom is in the 5000. system, but that includes HDTV.

LINK

lol, right on HomeDad, thanks man , the reason I laugh is that is the EXACT page that I first seen anything of AXIOM products. great info and suggestions there. For others that have not been there, DO DO DO check it out. great info, great resource.

apprecaite the input Daddy-O

I just replied to your other thread.

If it were my choice and my money (with a $3000 cap), I’d get the following.

Mains – M60’s – 2 ea / $960
Center – M60 – 1 ea / $480
Surrounds – QS-8’s – 4 ea / $1060
Sub - EP 500 – 1 ea / $1200

Total $3700

I’d buy through the factory outlet for a 10% discount (and all mine that I’ve bought from there look just dandy).

You’d also get the 5% discount off for buying five or more speakers.

Less 15% discount of $555

Net total after discounts........$3145


I know, $145 over. But you don't pay shipping, so it's a wash.

mdrew, thats quite interesting, I hadn't thought of that combo. thanks alot for your time and effort, I appreciate it. Now a few questions if I may:
1. why m60 center vice vp150? just guessing here, but woudn't the vp150 have a more . . . ummm even soundstage?
2. vert. or horiz. placement or m60 ? I presume horiz. just below TV.
3. qs8's I haven't the foggiest as to why I hadn't considered 4 of them for surrounds and rears as the yammy 2500 is a 7.1 rec.
placement? rears same spacing apart as the front mains? roughly 6 feet high, and same height for surrounds, mounted about 3 to 4 feet infront of seated ear position?

I must admit just now I am grinning like a cheshire cat in regard to your reply.

that sub, if I go with the HSU vtf-3 mk 2 I'd save about ... oh.. 340$. IF I go with it & "outlet Axioms" (putting me about 200$$$ under budget) On that note does anyone have a link to a compro of the vtf-3 mk2 vs. the ep500? I've not been able to find one. Reason i ask, is I've seen nothing still that convinces me that it is better, and it costs more $$$. I'm sure there has to be some in here that can speak to the quality of a sub other than Axiom's, be it HSU, SVS, OUTLAW. I guess I should reword a bit to say I've not been convinced that I would HEAR a bass reproduction from the ep500 that is discernably better than the HSU vtf-3 mk2. any DBT links?

appreciate the input guys, keep 'em comin' peepers

Questions and a comment:

Have you heard ANY of the speakers you are considering?

Are we talking about US$ or CDN$?

Fundamentally, I very strongly agree with Mike (mdrew)'s approach. However, there are a couple things that could save you the money to get under budget. In my order of preference:

Start out with 5.1 or 6.1 instead of going straight to 7.1 and buy only 2-3 QS8's instead of 4. There is very darn little discrete 7.1 content out there.

You need the room for a floorstanding vertical center speaker. If that doesn't "work", go for the VP150 and be happy/confident.

Consider the Hsu VTF-3, the Outlaw LM-1, SVS-PB12-NSD/V, et al. It might be all the sub you ever need. Call the manufacturers and talk to them about your room size, listening habits, etc. But - I want to stress this - if I had your budget, I would buy the EP500 and not look back.

Obviously, I'm an Axiom owner and if you stay within their lineup, I would not deviate from the M60 main and QS8 surrounds. Big thumbs up on the Factory Outlet if you can stand the wait - mine are basically flawless.

I have heard the Rocket 750 and 850, but not the 760. I found them to be very different from each other, and I did not care for the 750 compared to the M60's. They are quite different.

If you can listen to any of these speakers somewhere, I strongly urge you to do so.

Keeping all front speakers the same is always a plus – if you have the room. Just imagine, three power towers looking at you…….cool.

Tom’s right, not much 7.1 stuff out there. But, your 2500 will send some tunes to those speakers and it will sound great, regardless of 7 channels or 6. You will be completely immersed in sound. Music in surround is quite a treat, and this is coming from an ol’ two channel advocate that has ZERO SACD’s.

You want to place the side surrounds perpendicular to your sitting area about 6’ off the floor, a little to the rear or front, wherever you can mount them. The rears go behind you (obviously). Keep them about 6’ apart and at about the same height as the sides.

I’ve got the LF-1, had the 500, have the 600 and have a Wharfedale coming my direction for my two channel system. The Outlaw held it’s own against the 500, but the 500 was much, much smoother and reached lower. I liked the Outlaw just fine without any want to upgrade it until I got the 500. Then I got the 600 and effectively screwed myself. For music, I think it blows the 500 away, but for movies, it’s a toss up when you consider the price difference. If I could justify the $2500 for another 600 in piano gloss black, I’d have one for the two channel system. The 500 has been in more than one shootout with SVS and HSU. It usually wins in blind tests. That’s all I know. Ask Ajax or Craigsub for more on subs. Craig’s pretty busy playing with little white balls this time of the year, but you could always send him a PM and hope he replies.

Unless you like muddy highs, sloppy and boomy bass, and don’t care if you ever hear a kick drum or brass horns or a guitar pick, Axiom speakers will give you a big grin. The system I picked out above will most definitely rock that room of yours, whether it be music or movies. And no, I don’t get a red cent from Axiom. Don’t own stock, and don’t really care one way or the other what the hell you buy – other than the shear joy of seeing someone get a great set of speakers without having to take it in the shorts.

I have things to do. Later and have fun with this. Don’t take it too seriously or you’ll loose hair.

good replies so far tomtuttle, mdrew, appreciate it

In reply to:

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Have you heard ANY of the speakers you are considering?

Are we talking about US$ or CDN$?

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No I have not, I am with military overseas fwiw.
and US$$$

my tv is about oh,,, (guessing here) 22 inches off the floor, where would this m60 center be placed? the vp150 would sit nicely on stand just below tv.

appreciate the "experience" comments. anyone else have past/present experience with these or ANY other speaker combos in this 3000$ range? Please . . . do tell. Look forward to checking back here. Peace

In reply to:

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1. why m60 center vice vp150? just guessing here, but woudn't the vp150 have a more . . . ummm even soundstage?
2. vert. or horiz. placement or m60 ? I presume horiz. just below TV.

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The ideal for the 3 front speakers is having them all the same speaker. The reason center channel speakers are designed as they are is because of space limitations. Not many of us have room for a 47 inch speaker under or above our TVs or screens. That being said, you shouldn't be concerned about using a regular center channel speaker. Most manufacturers voice them to blend as seamlessly with their main speakers as possible. The VP150 matches very well with the other Axiom speakers.

That brings us to #2. Though some of us have used a vertically oriented speaker in a horizontal position with no problem, the conventional wisdom is you should avoid it. Personally I've never tried it, so I can't offer first hand testimony. But, were it I, I wouldn't do it.

As to your speaker options, I'm not gonna be much help. I've never heard any PSB speakers. And though I've owned, and loved, M60s, VP150, QS8s, and currently own Rocket 850s, RSC200, RSS300s, and 250s, which I supplement with an Axiom EP500 subwoofer, unfortunately I've never heard the 760s or the M80s.

Here's what I can tell you about my Axiom M60s and Rocket 850s. Thought they sound a little different, I consider them to be in the same class of speakers (EXCELLENT!). In other words, with either speaker, you are getting an excellent product. Since my personal experience with the speakers you are considering is limited to the center channels and surrounds, I'll restrict my comments to those.

I happen to prefer the RSC200 to the VP150. In no way should that be interpreted as saying the VP150 is NOT a good center channel speaker. It, indeed, is. However, I prefer the QS8s to the RSS300s (same disclaimer as above). I'm currently using the 250s in a small bedroom system, and will be using them as rear surrounds in a 7.1 system when I get my 7.1 processor. I'm impressed with the amount of bass response I'm getting from them (corner loading), but other than that I can't comment as to how they would work as surrounds.

In reply to:

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3. qs8's I haven't the foggiest as to why I hadn't considered 4 of them for surrounds and rears as the yammy 2500 is a 7.1 rec.
placement? rears same spacing apart as the front mains? roughly 6 feet high, and same height for surrounds, mounted about 3 to 4 feet infront of seated ear position?

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When it comes to subs, I've owned a HSU STF-2, Rocket UFW-10, and an Axiom EP500. I've heard the SVS PB12 Ultra, and the rocket UFW-12. Of all of them, I prefer the EP500. It is very difficult to explain why. The Ultra plays deeper and I suspect the HSU VTF-3 would as well, but above 20Hz, I find the EP500 smoother and more refined. That's just my opinion, and all you HSU and SVS owners have every reason to be content with your subs. Stone_Man, if money is an object, you would not be disappointed in the HSU or SVS.

Okay, stoney, if the budget can handle something in the area of $3,000 I'll make a few comments. I'd generally agree with Mike's suggestions. The reason for a vertically oriented center speaker is that, contrary to your supposition, it generally(I'm not familiar with the VP150)has a wider and smoother horizontal dispersion than a horizontally configured center. Setting an M60 horizontally would lose this advantage, and with an RPTV you apparently wouldn't have room for a vertical M60 center. You could consider whether you'd have room for a vertical M22.

As to the placement of surround speakers in a 7.1 setup, the side surrounds should be directly to the side(not behind, as would be better for 5.1)and 2-3' above ear level. The back surrounds should be at the same height and separated about as far as they're behind the listening position(e.g. if they're 6' back they should be separated about 6'). Note that although there's no discrete 7.1 material presently, your 2500 can use DPLIIx to extract ambience from the front channels in two-channel materials and the side channels in 5.1 material and send it to the side and/or back surrounds where it belongs.

I concur with almost everything being said here, with one exception:

If you do NOT have the room for a M60 as a vertical center, and are concerned about horizontal dispersion pattern of a horizontally oriented center (such as the M60 on its side, the VP150, or ANY MTM speaker for that matter), why not go with M60s, QS8s, etc like was suggested above, but for a center use an Axiom bookshelf, such as the M2, M3, or M22?

Disclaimer: I am still new at this, and haven't actually heard the VP 150, but do own M60s for my music duty. I only had room for floorstanders flanking my "stereo cabinet".

As to HT speakers, I was up against size and placement issues. Anyway, due to my odd layout, we all sit off center (some more than others) and in the past we had trouble following dialog sometimes. After much experimentation (3 center channels later), and finally some research, I ditched the horizontal center and the sold off my "micro system", and just purchased 5 matching "mini" bookshelf speakers, and am finally VERY pleased with the results.

-Alan

I do not have the space under my screen for a center M80, so I went with two M22’s. I haven’t heard the VP’s so I can’t really comment to their performance. They may be wonderful speakers, I just don’t know.

Another option is two M2’s and lay them horizontally. I have done that before with twin M3’s and they sounded great. One benefit with two bookshelves as a center channel is you can position them in numerously different ways. They can both be horizontal above or below the screen/tv with their tweeter together, or apart. You can put one above the screen/tv and one below ether horizontally, or vertically. Lot’s of options.

I wouldn’t do this with a tower speaker though. The tweeters are a good 30” or so away from the woofers, so the sound stage would be all screwed up if you lay them horizontally. With the little bookshelves, the effect is not nearly as great. Plus, if you have two bookshelves end to end, you effectively just evened things out.

One thing to keep in mind though, if you run two speakers in parallel, you just halved the impedence, so you’d be at 4 ohm again. In your case, I’d not go that route and just stick to a VP 150, or possibly one M22 in the vertical position. You could always by both, give them a try in your home and send the one you don’t prefer back to Axiom.

The VP 150 sounds great and does very well with my 80's.

these have been great replies people, I thank all of you

and Ajax much appreciate the piccy 4 me wee brain lol

one concern I'd love to hear comment on is axiom top end being brite , harsh or whatever discriptive you'd prefer. I've seen comment regarding this from beginner to pro reviewer. So straight up tell me your thoughts on it if u will. crisp and detailed is one thing brite and harsh another.

Also if this IS a characteristic that is present, is it something that could be um.... maybe eq'd out? or lessened?

Again I hate to sound like a broken record but I SO much appreciate the honest and insightfull (<<-- SPcheck that , I'm to lazy ) replies I get it on this forum.
Keep 'em comin'
Peace B)

Well, you'll find that just about everyone here thinks that Axioms are quite harsh and unlistenable.

Um, wait...

I would have to say a better word for the 60's and 80's would be accurate and precise rather than bright, room acoustics also will make a huge difference on how the speakers sound.

Well first off you need to take into consideration what these “other” folks consider harsh. Ask them what speakers they currently have and then research those. Some folks prefer a laid back speaker and call a detailed speaker “bright”, “harsh”, “in your face” and other names. When in fact, these speakers do exactly what they should. - Accurately reproduce exactly what’s on the disk. Axioms do that very well. So if that means that an accurate speaker is a bright speaker, then so be it. I guess I like bright speakers. I want to hear everything, like those subtle guitar picks and finger squeaks on the strings. I like to hear the drum stick tap and slide off cymbals instead of a blurred crash. I don’t like to hear a fuzzy mess of treble, but the individual taps. Laid back speakers don’t do that. Some folks like a little extra bass and they tend to prefer speakers that have bumps in certain spots of the frequency range that really does nothing more than color the sound. I’d rather have a neutral speaker and tweak the tone controls to my liking rather than have a speaker do it for me.

The downside to detailed (bright) speakers is that those recordings that were not done very well sound like crap. But, they sound like crap on warm speakers too, but just not quite as bad. I struggled with this when I first got my 80’s and blamed the speakers and was all pissed off that some of my favorite CD’s sounded like crap. It took me a while to come to grips with that and ended up ordering as many that I could that have been remastered.

Isn’t there someone in your area with Axioms that you can audition? If so, take you favorite CD’s and Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon. That’s my favorite auditioning CD. Time sounds pretty friggin cool on a good set of speakers. You get the high’s, lows and mids. The clocks and chimes intro is way cool on a detailed speaker. I’d hate to loose that.

It's been my experience that people who call Axioms "bright" tend to be idiots.Around these parts they use the word "tinny".The last person who thought my system was "tinny" bought a 20+ year old fisher system at a gagage sale for $50.00.Best he ever heard "WOW,look at the size of those woofers!!!!".After 30 seconds of listening I walked to the back of them and hit the high and midrange re-set buttons that the previous owner had popped.If you like dull the Axioms won't be for you,if clear and accurate is your thing you'll love them.Sorry for the rant,I've been meaning to say this ever since I heard the first "bright" comment.

kcarlile thats funny stuff LOL

kingaljr , I found your reply interesting but lacking . . . something.

If I may.

Firstly audioholics is where I first found out about axiom speakers (as noted above) and maybe I'm being played the fool by their reviewers. but I don't think I am, every one of audioholic reivews I have read seem very well done and articulate, honest if you will.

The m80 review was the very first time I have ever heard the term "brite" and "forward" used to discribe speakers. ((admittedly I don't know much at all about the nomenclature used in this hifi circus)) I am learning as I go though . I have seen those two discriptors used in professional reviews of axioms, and as i found more sources of info in my research, I see it has trickled down to the "regular joe" .
I also have seen "warm" being tagged to onix rocket speakers, while in more searching for info I find that ONLY the 750 was warm, and none others, but still "average joe" still uses it to discribe the rocket line. So.... that being said i can "sorta" understand what you are getting at. As it seems axiom has fallen victim of the same "average joe" , spreading the same MISinformation about axiom's speaker line as has happened to the rocket line. So, to call everyone an idiot that has refered to axioms as brite, well, that just isn't right.

now a new question to all.

Can someone tell me when the "V2" designator was started? I have seen it on the forum for awhile. Now I see the V2 in the storefront listings. Also were all the changes made to all of the line? driver/s? crossover point/s? cabinet? Also is there a price difference between the ummmm... older V1's i guess I'll say and the new V2's? thanks

In reply to:

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alan
(connoisseur)
12/22/05 11:52 AM
Re: version 2? [re: bray] Reply




Hi bray,

Yes, the crossover in the M80ti (M80 v2) has been unchanged for the past three years and a bit. Several ongoing changes were made in the crossover at that time.

It was time for a new review of the M80 at Soundstage.com because the existing graphs and the old review on the Soundstage site did not accurately reflect the tonal balance of the current M80.

Regards,

Regards,

Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert

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After seeing your questions concerning V2 posted multiple times, I took it upon myself to use the SEARCH function.

I hope this answers your question(s).

interesting, I as well searched, how about that? and no, what you posted didn't answer my questions, thanks anyway

and the reason I asked here is cause the only useful info I found to come close to answering my questions was this excert from a msg Allen sent to someone

In reply to:

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At recent meetings, we decided there were enough small changes to enough models to use new nomenclature, hence the v2 designation. Finally, there are no audible differences in the M22ti and the M22v2.

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so no real difference in the m22's, what about all the others? still the same question as I made in my last post + any audible difference?

In reply to:

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Feel free to contact me on my direct line, 1-888-243-3236, 9-5 Eastern Time, Monday to Friday, or call the Axiom toll-free number any time at 1-866-244-8796 - any of our Audio Experts would be pleased to help.

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I would like to suggest calling Axiom as they are the ones that will be able to give you the answers you seek. I doubt if any of the forum members will be able to give you the exact changes to all of the Axiom speaker line other than the information that has been posted by Alan on this forum.

thanks for sharing that man

IF I were stateside I would have called them already, but being that I am overseas, that is a call I'd rather not make. Be they toll free in north america or not EVERY call back there from here costs and plenty, sadly enough. And stupid me I bought a "local" phone to have a cordless one, and go figure , I come to find out it don't even work to or from the US. GRRRRR

so then . . . anyone have any comments on 3000$ speaker system choices? I'm all ears and NO input is too small. I've had some great input so far , more would be way cool, thanks all

In reply to:

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Can someone tell me when the "V2" designator was started? I have seen it on the forum for awhile. Now I see the V2 in the storefront listings. Also were all the changes made to all of the line? driver/s? crossover point/s? cabinet?

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Hi Stone__Man;

We are still in the process of adding the v2 to the sites, but it went into usage at the end of 05 / beginning of 06, to differentiate the current generation of speakers from the original ones. Axiom is constantly making improvements to our speakers, and indeed if you look at an original M80 you'll see an entirely different driver configuration, frequency response, and even cabinet design. Changes to every model of speaker have been made since the line was released - input, in some cases drivers, in some cases crossovers, in all cases cabinet design, etc, etc, and after much discussion it was decided that we should indicate that on the speakers themselves. The performance and hardware changes are cumulative over the last two years, and when we had finished the whole line we added the v2 designation.

Amie,

I thank you for your reply. Are these changes going to be put up on the main webpage somewhere? with what the real world sound differences are if there are any? The way I understood what was in Allens msg. the m22ti hasn't changed soundwise. I don't know much but, I'd assume that if drivers have been changed or crossovers or crossover points, that there would be a real world difference. . . or maybe post the changes/differences on the forum? As I'm sure I'm not the only one that is wondering about the whole "V2" label and what all that entails.

I thank you for your time and service

Kind Regards,
Stone__Man

spell check ? whats that?

Uh, I think that's the best reply you're going to get. It's an accumulation of many changes over the past couple of years, probably a few improvements in sound, other improvements in design, binding posts, etc. Do you want graphs or something?

Here is a M22 graph form Soundstage 2001



Here is a recent graph from Axiom of the M22s.

if there are actual differences in sound, yes, visuals would be nice hehe anything really. I guess if there are any real improvments they will want them to be known and we will see them here on the forum or on the main page. I guess it just strikes me as odd in some ways.

It has got me quite curious, are customers getting sound inprovment or just a shiny new moniker for the Axiom line?
Please don't take my curiousity as snide. That is not my intention. Bottom line is I want to know if, in any of the Axiom speakers there is a marked improvment sonically? Again, I'm not trying to come across as snide.

Don't hate me cause I'm curious I've learned from some really good members here on this forum,by asking questions that come to my mind. An old truism just comes to me. you know "the only stupid questions are those not asked."

n e hoo, i l b c n ya

Maybe I'm just grumpy. Maybe I've grown weary of people trying to sincerely help and continuing to get vague and/or reworked questions. Maybe trolls have discovered Xanax.

When people start a comment with "don't take this the wrong way, but..." or "don't take offense, but...", it has always seemed to me that they are asking for permission to be rude instead of taking the time to consider or reformulate their interjection in a more polite or constructive way.

You get what you pay for when you pay for it.

Most Axiom owners who post here (and - I believe - elsewhere) perceive their speakers as a good value.

Stone_Man, I really believe you are overthinking this. Either go listen to some speakers and buy them, or take a chance on some Axioms. You've already confessed to being confused and frustrated with the acquisition process, so why drag it out further?

Are you saying that if there are several modifications to an Axiom speaker, but those changes have no effect to the speaker sonically, then that does not justify changing the speaker from a "ti" to a v1, v2, or whatever ?

now maybe you know why I worded my post as I did, I didn't want what is happening right now to be happening, with the two replies I just read.
I'm not saying any change is or isn't worth anything, not trying to step on anyones toes, not trying to start world war three, not trying to do anything, except find out what has been changed.... and just in case you haven't thought of it, a discernable improvment may just be what lands more sales for Axiom. for crying out loud I only want to know what the differences are. I'm not asking for FBI secrets here. why is this such a big deal? you know what, if you guys are going to have a cow about it, just forget I asked about it then, and God forbid I question anything that is unclear to me. I'm simply someone trying to make sense of all of this hifi stuff, and you guys are acting I just called your little sister a slut or something and you wanna kick my @ss. sheesh I wouldn't be here asking questions if I didn't want to know. And I also wouldn't even be on this forum if I had no interest in Axiom speakers. again why is it such a big deal to ask about V2 and what has changed? Lastly I will not reply to any stupid questions about motives, spys or any other idiotic sh!t, I am a potential customer that wants to learn as much as I can about different makers products, and everything else I can learn,and I'm not afraid to ask questions so as to learn, afterall 3000$ is "a lot" of money to me, it may be a drop in the bucket to some but not me sorry. I came into my search with a thirst for knowledge and understanding. no desire to offend or be offended. I will not name names but other makers v this or series that, always comes with getting out word of the improvments made in the latest versions. so my being made to feel as though i have done something wrong is ree-dick-ah-lus & does not help Axiom sell any speakers, not in the least. This is the VERY LAST I will say on this matter. Period

Back on track now, has anyone perchance had or have any of the other speakers I am considering? that can lend objective or subjective input as to what you liked or didn't like about them? Or how you would say they differ form the mentioned Axiom setup? I would be most appreciative. Oh, not sure if I added it to the first post but NHT M6's are also on my list. thank you all that have helped and will help me to continue to learn in this most interesting . . . ummm hobby. Peace

whatza spel cheker?

Excuse me, but did you see the smiley after my post, I was asking a simple question, was not meant to offend. The way I read your posts, it seemed to me that you were looking for a sound improvment in the v2 versions, so I asked what I felt was a simple question. Sorry if you took any offense to it, it was not intended that way.

In reply to:

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Back on track now, has anyone perchance had or have any of the other speakers I am considering? that can lend objective or subjective input as to what you liked or didn't like about them? Or how you would say they differ form the mentioned Axiom setup? I would be most appreciative. Oh, not sure if I added it to the first post but NHT M6's are also on my list. thank you all that have helped and will help me to continue to learn in this most interesting . . . ummm hobby. Peace

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I honestly doubt there would be anyone that has heard all the speakers you have on your list. I know I have not. I have heard quite a few different brands but none of the ones you mention (execpt Axioms of course). Please don't take this the wrong way but to simplify your quest put all the names of all the speakers mentioned on a dart board and give a dart a toss. If you have not or will not be auditioning every speaker you mention it makes absolutly nothing for us to give you our opinions. I highly doubt your hearing and the way your brain processes the sound would be anything like what any of ours do. Any of the speakers on your list would make for an outstanding system. Our taste in the way a speaker sounds is as unique as we are individuals.

firstly, thanks Tharkun. no worries m8

wid, hehe I like your reply.

some questions and comments.
I used the word ANY , any OR all. That was my way to try to cover anything and pull out ANY info from any one that would like to share their thoughts.

No matter how you meant the "dart board" comment to come across. It made me laugh, honestly. Cause in MANY ways thats just what i have before me. but instead of just picking up the darts and chucking them, I am trying to determine which target to aim my darts, so I CAN WIN the dart game. afterall you have THREE darts to throw, and for me being ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS a dart, I most certainly want to do my best to most fully understand the advantages and disadvantages of each target I may hit.

Bottom line is this: being as I can't audition like those that are stateside can, I am trying to gather as much objective as well as subjective information as possible, about this MAJOR purchase. Personally I think I am taking the best approach to this that one can take.

If there is anyone that can tell me of a better way to go about this , being in my situation, by all means please do tell.

Some may view my questions as ticky tack, or meaningless, when they should be viewed to mean that Axiom's are still high on my list and I want to AGAIN make the most informed purchase decision that I can. Because the fact of the matter is, some company/or companies is going to get my money. I am going to purchase speakers without auditioning them directly.

So, as I see it, my being online and searching for and gathering any and all info I can, from as many sources as I can, on my "dart targets", THIS IS MY AUDITION!

lastly, again, If there is anyone that can tell me of a better way to go about this , being in my situation, by all means please do tell.

Are there no audio shops by you that you could at least get an idea as to what you are looking for in a speaker?

Stone may have reached the point where he has received all of the useful posts that he will get. I agree with you that the next step would be for him to go audition some speakers.

Idiot might have been a little strong .It is just my experience that people who use the term "bright" etc. seem to be bassheads.It's all personal taste I guess.I have always loved clean highs and outstanding vocals.I actually was talking about a set of Jamo 407's that I had at the time,to this day the best bookshelf I ever heard.I got conned into swaping them for a 357 Colt trooper and a Ruger 44mag.IMO the Axioms are everything I have been looking for in a speaker made today.I have yet to have anyone not say it is the best system they ever heard and this comes from people with some mighty nice equipment.BTW I liked the M60's well enough that I got rid of my beloved JBL L200B Studio Masters. It wasn't even close.

Stone,
are there any B & W dealers where you are? some on this board have compared the m60 to i think their 703 or 803 line.
or if there is any audio shops you can go to to audition some speakers post your comments here. based on that we could at least get an idea of your tastes. if the above is not possible then you are prob going to have to just bite the bullet and order something to find out.
Jake

From the Factory Outlet:
(2) M80's
(2) QS8'
(1) VP150
(1) EP500

$3087- Home Theater Discount ($154)= $2933. You'll never regret it.

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lastly, again, If there is anyone that can tell me of a better way to go about this , being in my situation, by all means please do tell.

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I don't' think, in your situation, there is a better way to go about this. But, you can only learn so much from the opinions of other.

Here's the good part about your situation. None of the brands you are interested in is "bad." No matter which choice you make, you will be purchasing a quality product, and you chances of being pleased with your purchase are good. However, the bad part about your situation is that, choosing the right one for YOU comes down to your own personal tastes, and none of us can guess what your tastes are. Only YOU know that.

Wid, Rat, and Snakeyes have made a wonderful suggestion. If you have any source near you where you could listen to a few brands of speakers (it doesn't matter which), and then come tell us which brands and models you liked and which you didn't, we might be able to equate the Axiom sound to one, or more, of them, and better judge which of your choices you might enjoy the most. As said, the M60s have often been mentioned as sounding very similar to the B&W 703s, for a whole lot less money.

Short of that, all you can do is gather as much information as you can, weigh that information, go with what your gut is telling you is the right choice, and opt to be content with that choice.

By the way, whichever speaker you chose, I heartily recommend making no judgements until you've listened to them for, at least, a couple of weeks. Give yourself time to acclimate to their sound (or give them time to "break-in," if that's your belief).

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it. I really like the dart board reference. I 've thought about that quite a bit really. It really sums it up quite well.

I can tell you that if I go all Axiom it'll be
m80's
vp150
ep500
qs8's.

from what has been said here, I have run dry on info seeking here on the axiom forum as to what "brand" to choose. But if I can get thoughts on different aspects of home audio here that would be great. As i see it there are some quite knowledgeable folks here on this forum, that I can learn from IF I ask questions.

So If i may . . . Keeping the same brand across the front is now a MUST for me (learned from reading and input) the one question I would have about speakers and mixing is just how important is staying with the same name speakers for the surrounds or rears, as the front end is? I've not found much info on it. except some saying the "timbre" (<--i believe the word is) should be matched, does that come down to driver size? type? or is there more to it than that?
So would it sound like crap if I were to get the QS8's and use them with another makers front end speakers? or even the other way around having Axiom's on the front end and diff maker's on the rear?

Auditioning, there again is my thorn in the side. where I am I 'may' be able to audition speakers is about an 10-12 hours drive away in the big city. I have NO idea what if anything they would have that anyone would have even heard of. That is compounded by the fact I have never been to that city, and in this country 'english' is not the first language, so it would be like looking for a needle in a GIANT haystack with signs that may as well have been from outer space. so there is that barrier as well.

If I get helpfull input here on the Axiom forum or not. I have a desire to learn and gather as much info as I can, BEFORE , I make my leap of faith and I will continue my quest regardless.

afterall why does one need prior knowledge of other speakers to get help? Everyone started somewhere. I say I want the most true to life speakers that are not going have TOO much push in the high end so as to make my ear "flip". What more detail is needed than that? Maybe its just being stupid , but I would have thought that would be enough. And In my question asking online I have assembled a list of choices that most think ANY will be good
choices, and i have amassed this list with NO prior knowledge and NO auditioning.

Just imagine that you all are my ears, I'm able to hear how different speakers sound through you and your individual interpritations of what you are hearing. Imagine I then that we meet and you share your thoughts about what you heard. That is how it feels to me I understand the same speaker sounds different to different people, that is EXACTLY why I ask views from so many that HAVE be able to audition any of those that I am interested in. Take this all as you will, ignore me, or share with me. ITS ALL GOOD.

spel chk schmell chk

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It's been my experience that people who call Axioms "bright" tend to be idiots.Around these parts they use the word "tinny".

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Then call me an idiot as I'm one of those people or idiots as you call them who found in particular the M80's a little on the "In Your Face" or "Bright" side.

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If you like dull the Axioms won't be for you,if clear and accurate is your thing you'll love them.

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Really? Ever heard the M50's or the M3's or are you just guessing that all Axioms sound the same? Have you owned them all? I have.......... with the exception of the M60's and based on your comment you are implying that every Axiom speaker made is clear and accurate and more or less sounds the same. I got news for you, the M50 and the M80 sound nothing at all alike. Nor do the M3's and M22's that I have sitting 5 feet away from me as I type this..............and I can go on but you get my point.

Be careful when throwing around the term idiot as you are blanketing a fair number of people with an idiotic statement who are anything but idiots.

Always look on the briiiight side of life.....

Guess my memory is failing me, I thought you had told me you replaced the Axioms.

Stone_Man, buying speakers is taking a leap in faith, particularly if you can't audition.
Most of us on this board took that leap and are very happy with our decision. You can spend the rest of your life reading subjective thoughts on different speakers, but that will not help you get any closer to your end goal.
In the end you are just going to have to jump and hope you made the right decision with your choice. Imho the Axiom line would be a great choice, but the final decision is yours. Good Luck

Stone_Man,

I’d not expect anyone on this board to recommend any other speaker but Axiom. Most of us have them and most of really, really like them. There are a large percentage of us who like them just for their sound characteristics and really couldn’t give a rat’s ass what they cost either….in other words, to some of us, we’d have them even if they were double the price. So don’t listen too hard to some of the folks who always, for some reason or other feel they have to throw in this silly “great speaker for the money” disclaimer when they talk about them.

They are bright. So what? It’s just a term, slang, an adjective. Some people hate bright speakers and they say that they give them headaches. Some people like boomy/bass heavy speakers that they call lade back. It’s all a personal preference. Some folks think Bose sounds just fantastic. Some like JBL. Way different sounding speakers. I think they suck, but that doesn’t mean they do suck. They don’t give me headaches, but I never really get into the music with them. I need a very detailed speaker or I get bored and have to go fire up the dirt bike or do some other foolish thing that involves adrenalin. My speakers sooth me and calm me down. I have not ever in my 40 years been able to sit still and not do anything - until I got a set of M80’s and their sound just sucked me in. My girlfriend was scared something serious was wrong with me when she came home and I was sitting in front of the speakers don’t nothing but listening. JBL and Bose could never do that for me. That’s what this “hobby” is all about. Finding the sound that can draw you in and turn you into a vegetable. You will not find it asking folks to choose for you.

So you need to go out and figure out what type of sound you prefer. Go to any store you can find, listen to all they have and take notes. Then, come on back and tell us what you think. I bet that there will be someone on this board that has heard them and can tell you if they are a bright, warm, detailed or whatever…..type of speaker. They you will know what speakers to leave on your shopping list and what to take off.

to me that was a very good reply overall mdrew , thanks
I wouldn't exactly say I want you guys to choose for me, but I want instead , just what u have done, you gave me your view on the speakers that u have listened to. And your take on the axiom m80's. I am sorta suprised that u started off with "They are bright. So what?". I like that an honest view of how they sound to you. It seems many here equate saying an axiom is brite is a total condemnation of them. If it a general characteristic of them then it is. So again, i thank you for your candor, and not just saying something that is a half truth in your eyes " ears" simply to justify to yourself that u made the right choice and your speaker can't be viewed by discriptors other than the likes of perfect.

Again, my whole reason for wanting honest input such as yours is because of my ear problem. It's been years since my last hearing test. but I would guess if there is a. don't know the words so bare withme. deviation from flat response, a spike, whatever it is, at (guessing) anywhere from 2K to 5K range that may "set off" my ear distortion. It could be at a higher level, not sure but that would be my guess. So that is why I ask about the as u say forwardness or briteness of it. I really like everything about what I have read about axioms , paid reviews or personal views.

another thing noone has mentioned, could the yammy rx-v2500 through eq maybe stop the speaker from being something that would get rid of or lessen the crack-ly highs? Bottom line is I would hate my ear to start its thing the first time I cranked the m80s a bit.

Again I don't know diddly squat but , would I be correct to assume that the m60 may give my ear less troulbe compared to the m80 , cause it only has one tweeter. or an overall less . um... pronounced highs?

thanks again folks,

I would never describe the treble on the Axioms as being crackly. They're very clear. Don't know about bright; to me that means the treble is overemphasized. I don't recall the treble being overemphasized on the 22s, 60s, or 80s I've heard.

I don’t have time or the inclination to play word games. A spade’s a spade to me. You want my opinion, that’s what you’re gunna get. And I won’t even try to be politically correct or nice or mean. Just straight. That’s who I am.

Yes, I think they are bright and that word doesn’t bother me in the least bit. When I think about the meaning of the work bright, I believe that adjective fits. But just what is that description??? In the audio work thesauruses, detailed will be right next to the word bright. I just don’t care what the word is. They are extremely detailed. You can hear a spider fart in the recording studio with these speakers (not literally, but you get my drift). The only speakers that can reproduce detail to that degree will be considered “harsh/bright/in your face” or what the hell other some half deaf thumpity-thump lover wants to call them. Is there too much treble??? For 75% of the music I listen to, no, I like them just the way they are. For the other 25%, yes, too much for me. That 25% is all hard alternative rock (Breaking Benjamin / Seether / Chevelle) that has a lot of intense guitar and hard vocals. For the rest of my collection, I wouldn’t live without it. I’ve got two 400 disk changers filled with just about everything from blues, jazz, classic rock, metal, country, celtic, light and easy stuff, classical, instrumental, blue grass, contemporary, and other stuff I don’t even know what to call. I like it all. I just had a hearing test today and was told my hearing is as close to perfect as a human can be. Take that for what it’s worth.

Can you EQ it out? Yes you can. Any receiver with tone controls will allow you to back down the treble a couple db’s. If you get them and really like the speakers but just feel as if they have too much treble, either drop the treble or call Axiom. Tell them what you think and if they think resisters will help, they’ll send you some to put in line with the tweeters (20 minute job). They knock down the treble a db or so. You never hear about these things and I’m probably gunna get an ass chewing for mentioning them because Axiom goes to a lot of trouble building speakers to roll off the assembly line as is. The resisters change their sound.

I’m beginning to feel like a salesman and I really don’t like salesman, so this is my last “sales’ post. Go out and listen. I can’t give you any more information that I already have.

Good luck.

I, personally, would rather be known as bright than veiled. Then again I'm pretty laid back, so....

thanks again mdrew

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I, personally, would rather be known as bright than veiled. Then again I'm pretty laid back, so....

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LOL good one man

So could I interest anyone in a bright-ly colored veil? or even perhaps a crimson colored cloak? how 'bout a dashingly delightful derby?



OH, go figure me haz a nudder Q 4 U all , I see much about Axioms being revealing, mind you I am in no way an audiophile with a golden ear, what does it reveal? is it akin to the difference between listening to a CD and an LP with its ticks and pops?

what people mean by revealing is that Axioms are very accurate so if it is a bad recording or source it will sound as bad as it is. lol did that make sense?
Jake

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You can hear a spider fart in the recording studio

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Those Texas-barking spiders don't work for cheap.

Pity.

You guys must have fantastic hearing because I've NEVER heard a spider do anything. LOL!!!

Now, where did I put that blasted hearing aid????

NeverHappy,I could have put it a little more delicatly,sorry about that.The term "bright" sets me off,OOPS.I wasn't even talking about Axiom though just past experience relating to the term.Maybe it has to do with the fact the people I was talking about to a man can't stand female vocals????.All they seem to care about is BOOM BOOM BOOM.Sorry if I over generalized and offended anyone,probably shouldn't post after a bad day at work.BTW I do have the M3's and like them so much I am ordering another pair for a 2 channel stereo only living room.Again,pardon me for being rude.

kingaljr,
I have referred to the Axiom speakers before as bright, because they are.
Compared to any other speaker i've auditioned, that term fits. Others prefer 'forward' or perhaps 'intricately detailed' but the fact remains, they are not 'laid back'.
I certainly do not agree with 'tinny' but there is a reason why i use a resistor on the leads to the tweeter, provided by Axiom i might add.

If you think i'm a person who likes thumpy bass because i use that word to describe my M60s, then your generalization about people who use this descriptor is brutally flawed. As for the other idiotic comments, dare i use the word ignorant?
Ok i will.
I choose to ignore the other idiotic comments.

If you believe the curves that Axiom provides for their speaker response, then they are neutral or flat. They only reproduce what signals they are given.

So, if they don't sound right or good to you, then, perhaps the source material is the problem?????

If you don't believe the Axiom frequency curves, well, then that is another story.

not that anyone is gonna give a rats @ss , but . . .

after more reading of reviews I have changed my Axiom speakers choices in the MAINS portion of the system

m60's intead of m80's
vp150
qs8's.

this decision all comes down to my ear problem and *shreik* the dreaded *B* word. Mind you, what has swayed me more than anything is the reivews read, some at places that Axiom advertises. reference

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One puzzling discrepancy between the M60ti and the M80ti was in their treble performance. While the M60ti was a real smoothie, I recall that the M80ti’s high frequencies were a bit bright, especially on brass instruments. In "Wrong Note Rag," from Leonard Bernstein’s New York [Nonesuch 79400], I didn’t hear the treble "bite" through the M60tis that I had through the M80tis.

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from Vince Hanada's M60ti review found here http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/axiom_m60ti.htm
there are others , in fact most I have seen make reference to it using one adjective or another.

For me the potential problems w/ the M80 outweigh the advantages over the M60, w/ its extended base and louder SPL levels. Those are the only advantages I've been able to discern w/ my limited knowledge. I just wish that people could quit taking anything said, that is the least bit outside their belief about products they have purchased, so personal, and try to be more helpful to those that have question's and not be so damn defensive. I am fully aware its human nature to justify one's one choices by trying to shoot down, claim as false or simply dismiss anything or anyone that doesn't fall in line with one's personal views. Some can temper that defense mechinism, some cannot.

That is all, I shall discuss the M80 no more if I can help it, in this thread whats that you say? . . .Oh, yes indeed! Thank God :P :P

I want to send out a HUGE THANKS to all that have helped me in my journey thus far. Lord knows I needed it and STILL need a LOT it. So I'll be calling out again. Can't say I didn't warn ya :P

And to the rest, I don't say things or question things to be snide, or
any such negative adjectives, toward you or your equipment purchased. I just want to learn, and its easier to learn something when its more akin to flying a kite as opposed to pulling tigers teeth. Am I right? am I right?

have a good night and an pleasant tomorrow. Peace

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If you believe the curves that Axiom provides for their speaker response, then they are neutral or flat. They only reproduce what signals they are given.

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Rat, you make it sound like Axiom speakers have a ruler flat frequency response. They have humps and spikes just like any other speaker, any of which provides the speaker with its own tonal character.
There are speakers which are better in this particular measurement. Take a look at the Goodsound archives.

Also keep in mind that there are other measurements which may not show on a frequency graph, such as the driver output, efficiencies per each driver, etc. One reason why i have the resistor in my M60s is that it takes down the tweeter output by 1-2 dB thus reducing some of the brightness that i perceive. This does not make the speakers any less detailed but the hypothesis of a greater SPL output in the tweeter section is perhaps one reason why i find Axioms bright compared to other speakers i've reviewed.
The fact remains that crappy recordings exist and if one owns a speaker that makes those recordings sound harsh, there is little recourse but to find a speaker that does not reproduce this effect. This does not mean you lose any detail. A comparison of any well made speaker and the mostly subtle nuances between them should show just how detailed many other brands are as well.

Maybe someone else will chime in, but those curves are generated with a sweep generator with a constant power output. Thus, the driver effeciency would be shown in the curve. If I am mistaken, then the charts are somewhat bogus.

While other speakers may be more "flat," those are a pretty darn good set of curves.

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Maybe someone else will chime in, but those curves are generated with a sweep generator with a constant power output. Thus, the driver effeciency would be shown in the curve.

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No Rat, you are correct. I'm not sure where i was going with that thought from this morning. I may have been thinking about impedance across the spectrum as it varies across drivers but the SPL measured at each frequency is still the measurement across the same.

Regardless, there are other speakers out there with more flat frequency responses. Note that hump in the 1.5-3kHz range for the M80 v2. Perhaps the brightness people are perceiving? It reads about right.



Now take a look at the Energy Connoisseur C9 response. I didn't like the sound of this speaker at all and found its tweeter to be very harsh. Tonally it should be different from the M80s around the 2kHz and 5kHz range (in general) based on these graphs. Considering the similarities i noticed between the Energy and Axiom speakers for being harsh or bright, respectively, this is obviously an influential area of the spectrum which my ears are sensitive to variations .

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Guess my memory is failing me, I thought you had told me you replaced the Axioms.

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Dennis................I was out of the Axiom loop for a bit but I have M22's in a bedroom system and M3's on my computer. I also hear my old M80's on a daily basis as my brother in-law has them. Same goes with my old M50's as my father in-law has them on a second system. I'm also sitting on a pair of Monitor Audio towers and a pair of Green Mountain's.

I could honestly go on with the crap I have collected over the last 5 months!

Your memory is fine....................you are just having a hard time keeping up with my ever changing collection!

We keep forgetting that you name is well-chosen.