Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Auditioning Receivers in NYC

Hello,

I'm wondering if someone in the NYC/CT/Westchester area can help me. I'm about to order a set of axiom speakers and a new a/v receiver. I've had trouble finding a good store to demo and compare various receivers. In specific I want to listen to the H/K 635, Onkyo 803, and few of the Denons. When I was up in CT I hit a tweeters and got to compare a bunch of the Yamaha and Denon receivers. Back in NY though I found that J&R, CC, and Best Buy to be complete disasters -- screaming kids, horrible set ups, bad speakers, clueless sales agents unable to get anything to work, ect, ect. Anybody have any suggestions as to where I can go? Thanks ahead of time for any insight.

Co, welcome. Your description of the listening conditions that you observed illustrate the problems in trying to "audition" even items which differ significantly in sound quality, such as speakers. Even well set up systems will often vary at least slightly in their positioning and adjustments, invalidating any comparison.

A still more basic factor makes attempting to "listen" to receivers rather pointless: if they're correctly designed(as nearly all are these days, even at relatively low pricetags)they'll all provide transparent amplification which is audibly flawless when all factors are held equal, especially sound level(rarely done). Select a receiver on the basis of features and price, but don't imagine that "sound" is realistically a determining factor.

Thanks for the sage advice John. I've heard this sentiment repeated on this board by smart audio guys such as yourself, and rationally I agree. Part of me though wants to hear it for myself. For example every time I go to tweeter I find that I enjoy the sound of the Denons more than the Yamahas. ANother example would be the onkyo receiver, which gives me more features (not features I have to have, but would like) for around the same price as the Denon and H/Ks i'm looking at. Yet no one on this board or Audioholics or AVS (and I do take the other boards with nice helping of salt) seems to ever talk about the SR803 -- which makes me feel like I'd at least like to hear that particular receiver before buying it. I also want to see at what db level I can start to hear the difference between the H/K 435 and the 635, if I can at all.

On the other side of the coin, as you are saying, all the above questions would be answered under bad/misleading circumstances, so why bother.

Thanks again.

Hi cofalt,

I would entirely endorse JohnK's views on the essential similarity of receiver/amplifier "sound", so long as the unit is not driven into clipping and has a flat measured frequency response.

However, I would point out that some of the alleged audio differences heard by consumers in stores could in part be attributed to small variations in the tone-control circuits between different brands when they are left in the circuit.

If you measure frequency response of A/V receivers with the tone-control circuits engaged and "Off", there are measurable variations through the midrange "hinge points" and sometimes these are audible, because the variations may be up to 2 dB. Our ears are especially acute in detecting tiny variations in the midrange.

Apart from the many other variables in store auditions, the aforementioned could account for some of the differences heard.

The reason that you don't get much feedback on Onkyo units is that I tend not to recommend them because, unlike the Denons and H/Ks, many Onkyo models will not drive 4-ohm loads without invoking current limiting, protection-circutiry shut-down, or overheating.

That doesn't matter if you are driving 8- or 6-ohm speakers, but with the 4-ohm Axiom M80s, it does matter, and customer feedback has shown that Onkyos (generally) won't drive them. Even the entry-level Denons and H/Ks have no problems driving 4-ohm loads.

Regards,

Thank you Alan. Your advice is very much appreciated.

"If you measure frequency response of A/V receivers with the tone-control circuits engaged and "Off", there are measurable variations through the midrange "hinge points" and sometimes these are audible, because the variations may be up to 2 dB. Our ears are especially acute in detecting tiny variations in the midrange."

Could this be why it seemed like to me the Denon was more detailed, especially in the midrange?

So if I were building a system around a pair of m22s (which I am), and I preferred the features on the Onkyo 803, you'd say go with the 803 over the HK and Denon?

Thanks Once again,
Chris

Hi,

Yes, it's a possible explanation for slight differences you might have heard. But if the sales guy didn't exactly equalize the volume levels, and one receiver was slightly louder than the other (as little as 2 dB), you might interpret that as sounding "more detailed".

In double-blind tests, slight volume differences have been shown to change listener's preferences, the louder one always being judged as "better" sounding.

You'd be fine choosing the Onkyo for any Axiom speaker except the M80s, unless you thought you might want to upgrade in the future to a pair of 4-ohm speakers like the M80s.

Regards,

I live in the NYC as well. I have M22s and a HK receiver and I think they sound great together.

I have the Onkyo 703 which, except for the HDMI, is almost identical to the 803. I bought it because I thought that it was feature rich and had all the capabilities that I was looking for. As you may have read in one of my other posts, I do not believe that you should do your video switching/ upconverting in your audio receiver, so I didn't want the HDMI feature, thus the 703 not the 803.

Also, as I have posted, I have had no problems driving my M80s with the Onkyo. Maybe that is because there is no problem with the Onkyo amp in the 703 or maybe it is because I do not listen at extremely loud levels. Extremely loud for me is 90-95 dB SPL. Just can't take that for any length of time.

I do believe that the power amplifier in the 703 is very similar or the same as in the 803. I am not sure how it compares to the "cheaper" Onkyo receivers.

I bought the Onkyo with the notion that I would get a seperate amp for at least the fronts/ center, so the 4 ohm M80s were not a factor in my decision. Even though I have had no problems driving my M80s with the Onkyo, I am still planning on buying a seperate amp. Why? Just because I want one, not that I need one.

Just a few thoughts.