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#151246 - 11/13/06 08:44 PM EP 350 Stand-by Problem
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Hey all,
I've had my system set up for a few days now and am really enjoying it. The only problem that I've been facing is that the EP350 sub like to 'fall asleep' at quiet volumes quite regularly. Its beginning to get quite annoying. I like to have to volume nice and low while working on homework, for background music while studying, and for late night listening.

It seems to vary greatly depending on what kind of music I have on. With the stuff that has a nice consistent bass line, I can turn the volume quite low withoug any problems (down to -45 on receiver, which is about 60db overall once the sub goes out). If I go up a few clicks, the sub kicks back in and the sound SPL goes up to about 65db, which isn't very loud at all. I won't be going much lower then this regularly. The problem lies with classical and orchestrated music, when there's not a whole lot of bass stuff going on, it needs to be as high as -18 or so on the receiver until it finally kicks in (SPL ranges from 70-80 dB with the sub still not on). This causes a lot of the subtle low notes and sounds to be completely lost, and is very degrading to the overall sound of the music (as I'm sure you could guess).

I've tried with the sub volume low and the LFE high on the receiver, as well as vice versa, and neither seems to cure the problem. Having the LFE level high seems to help the problem, but its still there. I have tried using a stereo encoded signal (over coax) as well as DTS 5.1 over Coax from my computer. The DTS seems to work better, which I'm guessing is because it has as a descrete LFE channel.

I've been looking through previous posts here on the forum of other people having the same problems, but none of them have written a solution to the problem. I'm curious if they ever found a way to fix it, or just sent the subs back and got something else. If anyone has found a solution to the problem, or have any other ideas I could try, please share.

Thanks
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151247 - 11/14/06 10:34 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
Jc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Sherbrooke, QC, Canada
Hi Jason,

Your situation seems to be quite unique. However, I believe that it can be easily solved. I suggest that you increase the trim level on your receiver and decrease your volume level on your EP350 it should solve your problem. Try it and please, let me know the result.

Jc
Axiom Audio Expert

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#151248 - 11/14/06 02:53 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: Jc]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
I first read this and thought that what JC suggested was the same as what was done. But I think the difference is in the receivers sub trim level, vs. the LFE level.

If the receiver has an LFE level adjustment, it would not be applicable while you are listening to music. The LFE is a separate channel (the .1) in 5.1 multichannel audio/movies. Watching a movie, this adjustment would apply- but not when listening to stereo CDs.

Look for the trim or level adjustment for the sub in your receiver. It should be in an area where you can adjust the level for all of the main channels. Turn the sub level up in the receiver to send more source signal to the sub to keep it awake. You can then turn the gain on the sub itself down to balance it.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#151249 - 11/14/06 02:58 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Jason, sorry to hear about your sub problems, I have no clue how to fix it just wanted to say congrats on recieving your system!

Pics of the High Gloss Cherry Please!
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#151250 - 11/14/06 03:33 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: dllewel]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
I agree with Dave, when I owned a 350, I kept my receiver sub trim level(dB) at 0dB, which put my subwoofer volume/gain knob at around 11-12 o'clock when calibrated with an spl meter at 75dB. If you have the receiver level to low, the sub may be going into sleep mode.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#151251 - 11/14/06 11:13 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Jason, assuming that you actually meant the LFE level rather than the sub trim level, then that wouldn't have helped much since there's often little or no LFE present(none on music, occasionally in movies). As JC and the others suggested, increase the sub trim level and decrease the level setting on the sub itself to compensate; increasing that setting will provide a more consistent increase in the voltage level sent into the sub amp to keep it "awake".
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#151252 - 11/14/06 11:28 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JohnK]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Sorry for the confusion, but I was talking about increasing the sub trim. I found the LFE option as well and left that at its default (0, and it only goes to negative values). I currently have the sub trim at max (+10) and the sub volume at about 9 oClock. It works somewhat better, but I still have the sub cut out every now and then at lower volumes. Is there any way the cable could be the problem? I'm using a brand new 25' RG-6/U 18AWG CL2 cable from monoprice. There's no hiss or anything, so I don't believe the cable is receiving excessive amounts of noise. I have a cable from my old sub, but its about 2' too short to just hook up to try out (found that out yesterday). I may have to move the sub out slightly to see if the other cable solves the problem.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151253 - 11/14/06 11:56 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Okay, then that's abnormal operation if even with the sub trim on the receiver that high the sub still cuts out. It seems unlikely that the cable was damaged and is so intermittent that the sub isn't getting enough voltage, but as you suggested move the sub enough so that you can try the shorter cable.

Another remote possibility is that the 5960 sub output is defective(ordinarily it can put out far more than enough). Connect your player analog output directly to the sub as an experiment(if that isn't what you already referred to as having been tried)to see if the player output voltage keeps it awake. Otherwise contact Axiom directly, since the sub amp may need to be replaced.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#151254 - 11/15/06 02:19 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JohnK]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Ok, lets see if I can remember what I all tried:

- direct sub output from old DVD player in my room: no go since it does not allow any volume control, so my sub was just pounding away happily with the rest of my system nearly silent

- 2.1 analog hookups from same DVD player to receiver: this allowed me to control the sub volume, but did not solve the problem. sub cuts out around the same sound level (~60-70 db).

-optical out from DVD player: same results as coax from computer (main source)

- optical and 2.1 analog from DVD player going through my old Pioneer receiver: approximately the same result. The receiver is set up for my old satellite speakers and the volume level displayed is significantly different from my newer yamaha (same sound level on panasonic was like -60 compared to -40 on new yamaha). At this similar sound level, the sub was still cutting out occasionally. I believe this rules out the possibility that my receiver output is bad.

- New 25' optical cable run from my computer to yamaha receiver: Instead of my old coax connection (which was actually 2 - 12' cables coupled together), I decided to run this guy and see if there was a difference. VICTORY!!! I was able to turn the volume down until I could hardly hear anything out of any of the speakers, but I could slightly hear the sub playing and the light was green in the back. I was jumping for joy until... it cut out again . I thought I just over did it by going to below my hearing, so I began turning it up a bit at a time... by the time the sub came back in, it was back at the same old volume as before *sigh*.

- I also tried using two different cables to the sub. No difference.

So I seem to have ruled out the receiver, cables, source... New idea, what about a different player on my computer? Just tried that, no luck. The only other possibility I can think of is my sound card encoding to DTS. I just changed it to output Dolby Digital, no change. Stereo PCM? Worse. So I'm out of ideas. The only thing I can find is that it must be the sub that isn't working right.

Any other suggestions? I'll send Axiom an email about my problem and maybe link to this thread so I don't have to re-type all of this again .
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151255 - 11/15/06 02:37 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Emailing Axiom is probably a very good idea.

I have to admit, the lack of a hard power on was a contributing factor to my non-Axiom sub. (the other major factor is the relatively small amount of low frequency power required to match the sub output to that of the other speakers, unlike the other junk-jigglers here who like to run theirs 24dB hot... oops, my backspace key quit working. )

Seriously, though... Axiom should be able to help you out with some ideas (besides mine of keeping a AA battery with momentary switch in line with the sub out feed so you can reach over and give CPR to a sleeping sub) **CLEAR!!**.

Bren R.

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#151256 - 11/15/06 02:56 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: BrenR]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
lol. Bren, you crack me up.

I just finished sending a very long winded email to Axiom, so I'll be hearing back from them shortly.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151257 - 11/15/06 12:50 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
AndyBaj Offline
regular

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 5
Jason, I am having the same problem.

I am running the EP350 from a brand new Yamaha RX-V2600 amp. I tried cranking the subwoofer level to +9 db and the EP350 still goes to sleep too often when I watch Fith Element (which has plent of low freqs.)

I also tried running the EP350 off of my older Cambridge Audio A500 stereo amp (pre-amp outputs). I had the same problem there so I was pretty sure it wasn't a sub-out problem on the yamaha.

Now I am on my second EP350 and I have the exact same problem. I really think Axiom has an issue with this circuit. A manual bypass would have been nice.
_________________________
M60, QS8, VP100 Yamaha RX-V2600

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#151258 - 11/15/06 12:59 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: Jc]
AndyBaj Offline
regular

Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 5
Quote:

Hi Jason,

Your situation seems to be quite unique. However, I believe that it can be easily solved. I suggest that you increase the trim level on your receiver and decrease your volume level on your EP350 it should solve your problem. Try it and please, let me know the result.

Jc
Axiom Audio Expert




I would say his problem is not unique. So far I have found similar posts from posters JasonB, Gena, n8wrj and I have this problem myself. In several cases the above fix did not, in fact, fix the problem.
_________________________
M60, QS8, VP100 Yamaha RX-V2600

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#151259 - 11/15/06 12:59 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: AndyBaj]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
This is strange, prior to my current EP500, I owned the EP350, and never had this problem matched with my Denon 2805.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#151260 - 11/15/06 05:12 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: AndyBaj]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Hey AndyBaj,
Sorry to hear I'm not the only one with this problem. I'm waiting to hear back from axiom to see what they have to say about this issue. I'll post any progress or updates to this thread as I go along.

A manual bypass would be nice, but that's somewhat annoying to remember everytime you shut your stereo off (I've heard this sub draws a fair amount of current if left idle). I just wish the stand-by circuit worked like its supposed to.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151261 - 11/15/06 05:30 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Quote:

A manual bypass would be nice, but that's somewhat annoying to remember everytime you shut your stereo off (I've heard this sub draws a fair amount of current if left idle). I just wish the stand-by circuit worked like its supposed to.


Well, I'll have to defend Axiom's choice here - the voltages it has to look at are in the tens to hundreds of millivolt range. Trying to compromise on a trigger voltage that will keep the sub on during quiet listening and keep it from turning on from electrical noise when, say, a furnace or washing machine motor starts up isn't an exact science... ask anyone who's ever tried to set a squelch control on a CB radio.

I leave my sub powered on all the time - I figure there's enough things in the house stealing less useful kilowatt hours than an idling amplifier circuit... then again I live in MB where hydroelectricity is cheap.

Bren R.

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#151262 - 11/15/06 06:21 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: AndyBaj]
Jc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 501
Loc: Sherbrooke, QC, Canada
Hi Jason,

Axiom applies a very elaborate quality control program to all its products and all its finished products are extensively and individually tested during and after its fabrication. Furthermore, a finished sample of every model has to pass a torture test on a short cycle rotation.

Trim level and dB adjustments are not objective measures and can be misleading. There is an easy way to scientifically test and verify the integrity of the sensitivity of your EP350. The EP350 will awake when it is submitted to a very low electrical impulse of one (1) to three (3) millivolts on its RCA line level input or six (6) to nine (9) millivolts on its XLR balanced input or one hundred (100) to one hundred and twenty five (125) millivolts on its high level inputs. These figures are some of the lowest ones of the industry.

Using a common electrical multitester you should be able to easily verify if your A/V receiver is producing and maintaining these low minimum figures.

Please, keep me posted and do not hesitate to let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Jc
Axiom Audio Expert

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#151263 - 11/15/06 10:11 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: Jc]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Well I just checked and my receiver does put out more then 1-3 mV AC when the sub works. When I turn the volume down a little, the voltage fluctuates from 0-8 mV AC, and the sub does not turn on here. This is all with my receiver set at +10 db trim for tue sub. So what does this mean then? The sub is working as designed, except I listen to music quieter then the sub was designed to work at, and I have no way to make it stay on at this volume...

If this is the case, it looks like I have a few options:
1)suck it up and play music louder all the time ;
2)return the sub and buy a different brand that doesn't have an auto stand-by, or at least has an override;
3)upgrade to one of Axiom's larger subs which don't have a stand-by mode (as far as I understand).

I don't think option 1 is going to work, since I've found orchestrated music has to be pretty loud before the sub kicks in.

Options 2 is a possibility, but then there's most likely going to be shipping involved, and the finishes won't match. I do think this sub looks awesome in high gloss cherry, and its even better that it matches all my other speakers as well.

Option 3 is also a possibility, but its more money . That's always the catch. From what I've heard, it is a far superior sub in all respects, but its nearly double the price. I'm just waiting for someone to say "come on, its just money"

I'll have to consider my options. I would appreciate any opinions you guys have to offer, as well as any other ideas that may solve my problem.

Oh ya, one other thing I tested. I pulled the high level connections out of one of my mains and fed it into the sub. I changed the fronts to large and set bass out to fronts. Same result as before; the sub even cuts out a little earlier I think. I'm not too sure since I didn't test this extensively, just wanted to see if by some miracle it worked. It may be because I only fed one of the fronts into it instead of both. Either way, I doubt I'd run my sub this way in the end anyways.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151264 - 11/15/06 10:39 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Hang in there Jason, not sure I can be any help. I'm sure Axiom will work with you. There might be a part or replacement amp they can try to send you. Many times the problem is a configuration issue, however, it sounds like you've covered all the bases.

Randy
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#151265 - 11/16/06 10:31 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
Amie Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Quote:

If this is the case, it looks like I have a few options:
1)suck it up and play music louder all the time ;
2)return the sub and buy a different brand that doesn't have an auto stand-by, or at least has an override;
3)upgrade to one of Axiom's larger subs which don't have a stand-by mode (as far as I understand).





Although I'm on the side of playing music loudly , I do have option number 4 for you - we can actually get the amp back and override the auto-off for you. This will cure the shut-off issue, but not potential upgrade-itis ("it's just money . . ."). PM me and we'll get the details sorted out for you ASAP.
_________________________
Amie Colquhoun
Axiom Audio

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#151266 - 11/16/06 12:16 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: Amie]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
svs is now distributing their subs from Canada, for the $700 you spent on the EP350, i am sure you can get a good sub from them as well.

The SB-12 Plus has a REALLY small footprint and responds well down to 20hz. they designed is specifically for rooms that look like yours where space is a premium.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#151267 - 11/16/06 05:07 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: Amie]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
There ya go, Axiom will defeat the auto-on for you.

Geez, if I new that was an option, I might not have had my flat black 10" other manufacturer sub sitting here.

I'll get you next time, Gadget, next time!

Bren R.

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#151268 - 11/16/06 05:36 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: BrenR]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Wow. This is yet another genuine example of how Axiom is willing to go out of their way to make a customer happy . I am truely impressed that they'd be willing to do this so easily. I am strongly considering this option.

I'm also still considering working a few extra weekends at my part time job to pay off the difference to upgrade to the EP500. This way I avoid the additional heat/power involved with running the EP350 continuously, or the inconvenience of switching it on/off every time I listen to it. It also negates the possibility of upgraditis for a long, long time.

Either way, I'm quite certain that I will be staying with Axiom just because of this offer. They're customer service is just too good to pass up .

Thanks again Amie
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151269 - 11/17/06 02:42 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Well, then... mail that EP350 over here if you're just going to throw it out.

I'll even pay freight.

Bren R.

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#151270 - 11/17/06 02:57 PM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
snakeyes Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 828
Loc: Newburgh, NY
If you are still in the 30day period i say go for the ep500. i have the 350 and as much as i like it if the ep500 was available when i bought my system i would have gotten that. buy the way IT$ JU$T MONEY$$$$
Jake
_________________________
------------------------------------------------
Leave the gun, Take the canolis.

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#151271 - 11/19/06 02:03 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: snakeyes]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
I'm still well within my 30 days (less then 2 weeks so far). That's why I'm considering exchanging it. Even if I couldn't exchange it, I wouldn't be throwing it out. I would 'at least' donate it to my parents TV setup upstairs to compliment their amazing Bose sub . When ever I hear that thing from down here, its always the same frequency, over and over again . Don't even get me started on those sweet speakers that came with it... lol.

As far as a decision goes, I'm giving it some thought while I wait to hear back from Amie. I PM'ed her a couple days ago about some additional info for my options.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151272 - 11/24/06 10:33 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Well I've found the solution to my stand-by problem... Upgrade to an EP500 with the mute circuit disabled from the factory . It doesn't take any additional power compared to if the mute circuit is enabled, it it only there to remove any hum/buzz/pops from noise in the input line when its not receiving any signal. So there is now a bigger hole in my wallet, but it should be worth it in the long run.

I've really been generous to myself this christmas, I just hope it gets here before Dec. 25. It doesn't look too promising though... I guess all I can do is hope .
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#151273 - 11/24/06 11:15 AM Re: EP 350 Stand-by Problem [Re: JasonB]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Sweet dude, you now will have a system that is comparible to having Tower speakers...I am sure you will not be disapointed!
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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