Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Need sub advice... purchasing Epic 60 / 500 5.1.

I have been contemplating a purchase of a “good” home theater system for quite a while, and am finally on the verge of taking the plunge and dropping $2000-$3000 on a 5.1 speaker setup. I have done EXTENSIVE research online, read far too many articles, and devoted far too much mental energy on the planning… I am looking forward now to ending the planning and making the purchase. (It will be nice to have my 2+ hours a day of daydreaming about HT back…)

I have decided that for my particular circumstances, a 5.1 setup is the way to go. The setup will go in the main room, (approx 17’6”w x 16’d x 8h) and the sectional couch is on the back/side wall, providing no good placement options for the back surrounds of a 7.1 system. I have 90% decided on the Axiom Epic 60 / 500 system… and was closer to 98% before doing some “in home” testing using some borrowed (non-Axiom) speakers.

Recently, I was able to borrow an older set of Klipsch speakers (3.1 setup… no surrounds) from a friend to use, and I discovered a significant issue that I need to figure out prior to the purchase of the Axiom system... with respect to determining the proper subwoofer approach.

The sub I borrowed is large… a big cabinet (somewhere in the neighborhood of 19” x19” x 21”) has a 12” driver, and I assume a large amp (I gotta think 200+). It plays pretty darn loud, and seems to have some fairly decent extension. I don’t have the specs (and am currently without the model number as I type), but I consider it “big”, and assume it was one of their premier subs 10 years ago. It plays plenty loud and deep and pretty accurately… and I’m sure the EP500 is more capable, even though around the same size, but the Klipsch ain't bad. The borrowed fronts are Klipsch’s large bookshelf speakers from 10-12 years ago (KG 2.2, I think?), and the center channel is pretty standard in size, and does pretty well (again, no model no.).

The main problem I’m having is that the sub is fairly localizable in the area that is my ONLY placement option, the rear corner, in the “cave” created by the sectional couch. The couch is in the corner of the room along the back and side wall… the back corner of the couch curves rather than forming a 90 deg corner, leaving a nice space to hold a sub between the back of the couch and the corner of the walls. (The couch is huge, and the available space for a sub is huge… a SVS PB12/Plus 2 would actually fit if I wanted one.) The listeners (unless the couch is full) aren't sitting "on top" of the sub... but in fact are probably 6 feet away from it, on the sectional couch, generally in the middle of the back wall.

The significant other will not allow a sub of the girth I would like to purchase to be placed in the front of the room, primarily because the TV (Mits WS-65819) and speakers will fit nicely into an alcove… but there will be no space for a sub, meaning the sub would just be on the wall, essentially sticking out in the middle of the room with nothing else near it. (Even I agree it would look ridiculous.)

I am using borrowed gear currently, and haven’t spent much time “calibrating” any of it. It is currently running through a cheap receiver (my Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXVS is in the mail!), and hasn’t been set up correctly. However, with the crossover as low as 60hz, and the mains set to "large" (they have decent extension for bookshelves), the sub is still fairly localizable.

HERE’S THE QUESTION: Is it likely that I will be unable to correct the sub localization problem when using “full range” fronts like the Axiom m60s (that should have better bass extension than the bookshelf Klipsch speakers currently in place)? Or is it more likely that a big giant sub in the back will be hard to hide?

I am currently still set on the Axiom Epic 60 / 500 system… but I am also wondering if I should be considering a “two small sub” setup instead. I am intrigued by the Rocket ULW-10, which seems to be a great small sub. I “may” be able to get away with one of these in the front, as they are 12.25” x 11.75” x 13” and wouldn’t stick too far off the wall. Two of these can be had for $800. With a sub in the front, I could theoretically step back to the M22 bookshelves for mains rather than the M60s.

I would rather go with what I think is the “better” system… the Epic 60 / 500, but if I can’t “un-localize” the bass, I wonder if I’d be better served with the Epic Grand Master system, using twin Rocket ULW-10s rather than an Axiom sub.

Please give me opinions if you have any. Should I be able to set up the EP500 in the back and M60s in the front such that I “hide” the EP500 a bit better than I am currently able to hide the Klipsch sub?

Thanks in advance for your help.

After reading your post, it sounds like you have done a lot of research and know what you are doing- but to sum up my thoughts... It would be very sad if you didn't get the M60s and the 500. It is the better system.

Using 2 smaller subs (dealing with levels and phase issues) can make it more difficult to get things sounding right, and you wouldn't get the performance in output and extension you would with the EP500.

I would think that you will find the M60s and the EP500 with a crossover of 60 Hz should blend very well, and not be a problem. But I certainly can't say for sure as every situation is different. I would reccomend you go this route, and even start with the M60s set to small for movies with 80Hz crossover, and then move to 60 and see which you prefer.

Best of luck. I'm sure others will give you some additional advice. Welcome too.

My take on this...if you are able to localize the sub with a x-over of 60hz, your levels need to be matched. Your sub is probably playing too loud for the mains, and that is why they don't blend.

My opinion is that in a real world room (one with compromises to looks and the building around it) the sub will always be somewhat locatable. I am still playing with my sub settings to make it disappear completely, but when I am watching a movie I never notice it. I only notice that the sub is behind me when listening critically to music. But, I am running a x-over of 80hz (THX recommended) and also run the sub 3db hot because I like the tactile feel during movies.

I think your are going to find that no matter what speakers and sub you decide on there will always be a problem with "localization" of the sub. At least with the scenario that you describe. Sticking that thing in the corner behind the couch is not the best way to go. Bass frequencies don't like to be locked up trying to get out of those sort of places. You may want to try and find a different solution across the front. If you truly want to appreciate what this system can do you are not going to want to be sitting on top of that sub.

Baglorious, welcome. Reading your description, I'd be more concerned about the location of the M60s than the sub. You speak of putting them in an alcove, but how wide and how deep is it? If you're going to be sitting about 14-15' away, the speakers should ideally be separated by almost that same distance and also, their drivers shouldn't be recessed at all into the alcove. My thought is that the EP500(which is superb)should be in the alcove and the M60s outside of it, separated a suitable distance.

Thanks for the responses thus far, everyone. To address a few points...

JohnK: About the M60 placement... thanks for looking out for me as a newbie! I am aware that the alcove isn't a suitable place for the speakers, really... I'm going to have to go with the "move them out for serious watching" approach, i.e., they'll sit in the alcove when watching regular TV for half an hour, but they'll be placed in the proper position for movies or extended watching. Kind of a pain in the butt, but no real choice... it is the main room, and it won't be suitable to have the speakers anywhere but in the alcove generally.

That brings me to my next point... this is probably a "two more years" house. It is pretty small, I'm about to get married (buying $2700 speakers is the last gasp of a dying bachelor) and hopefully the next location will be a better setup. All that considered, I'm again leaning toward the "better" system including the EP500, as I'm considering these speakers a 5-10 year investment, and hopefully the next house will accommodate a sub in a reasonable location in the the front. (That's one of the reasons the EP500 is appealing in the first place... seems to be an outstanding performer, and certainly better looking and a bit smaller than SVS offerings, though I'd not mind a nice plus/ultra SVS in a wood veneer.) SO, that's definitely a reason to "not" get the twin small-sub setup, which is more oriented to "this" house rather than a long term plan.

Robert/Ajax/bflat... thanks for your help. I did hope that a "proper" setup would make a difference, and I did expect that it would. I was just wondering if it would be a lost cause trying to "hide" the sub... I guess I'd prefer it to be perfect, but so long as it is "reasonable" that will have to do in this house.

Hmmm... perhaps I'll stick with the M60s/EP500... and see if I can ALSO add a small Rocket sub in the front! Hmmm? Hmmm?

Now I'm just waiting on finish samples, which should get here this week! And then... I'll be waiting for the speakers to arrive (I'll be ordering B-Stock).

I'm tired of waiting!

You won't need the Rocket after you get the 500.

Yea, get em (M60,EP500) while you can . It's hard to buy a great stereo and diapers simultanously.

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I'm about to get married (buying $2700 speakers is the last gasp of a dying bachelor) and hopefully the next location will be a better setup. All that considered, I'm again leaning toward the "better" system including the EP500, as I'm considering these speakers a 5-10 year investment, and hopefully the next house will accommodate a sub in a reasonable location in the the front.

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