Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Tone Control Blasphemy

I have a shameful secret that makes me feel like I am doing something wrong but I just can't help myself...

I use the tone controls on my receiver.

I wish I preferred music the way it was intended, I really do. I often try it out for awhile just to see if it's an aquired taste but to no avail. I feel guilt when I read through the forum here, knowing that all true audio lovers would never think of doing such a thing but I just can't help myself.

For me, when I have the tone controls where they should be the music sounds completely anemic. There is no bass, no sparkling treble, it just sounds dead and lifeless. When I crank up the bass knob and turn up the treble a bit the music comes to life. The bass is now felt and not just barely heard and the highs sound crisp and clean.

Maybe it's my music. I love metal, and listening to metal with no added bass or treble makes me understand why maybe a lot of people don't like the genre...

However, I do like some rock too. Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Rush, etc all sound much better with some added bass and treble. I even prefer movies this way too...

So what's the deal? Are there others out there like me? Afraid that the golden ear society will knock on the door any day now and take away the music?

What speakers do you have? And have you calibrated your system using an SPL meter? Room geometry and speaker placement can have a drammatic impact on performance.

Hi Cameron,

Welcome.

By all means use your tone controls when necessary. The tweaky British edict (that's where it began, with some of the eccentric British reviewers and magazines) that touching tone controls is forbidden is utter nonsense. Even worse was the trend of manufacturing some "high-end" preamps and amplifiers without any tone controls at all.

Given the wide variation in recording practices as well as the natural decline in lower-bass response of many smaller speakers, tone controls can sometimes be quite useful.

Most smaller bookshelf speakers have bass response that begins to taper off (roll off) beginning at 50 or 60 Hz. The bottom string on an electric bass is at 40 Hz so many bookshelf models are rapidly losing output at 40 Hz. A modest tweek (or an immodest boost!) of the bass control can restore significant output in that region, lending plenty of nice bass and kick drum stuff to playback. Be careful of adding more than 3 dB or 5 dB of bass boost AND turning up the volume--you may overdrive the woofer of a compact speaker.

If you hear nasty "snaps" or grotty distortion, turn down the bass control and/or the volume. But lots of well-designed speakers with good power handling like Axiom's M22s, M3s and M2 bookshelf models can accept 3 dB or more of bass boost with ease at moderately loud levels.

Well-designed tone controls do not introduce distortion of any audible proportions. The best alternative is to have tone controls that can be switched out if audiophiles want to route the signal "direct" to the amp.

I have lots of CDs with anemic or poorly recorded deep bass that can sometimes be given some help with a tweak of the bass control. Likewise, a 2 or 3 dB reduction of treble will sometimes make sibilant CDs quite listenable. If the high-frequency response of your speakers is dull or muted, a treble boost will occasionally make things much more detailed.

Regards,

I have the M60's. Yeah, I've calibrated with Avia and the radio shack meter many times. I've also had different systems and different rooms and the results are all the same. Flat tone controls sound exactly that, flat. To get any tactile bass or a sparkle of treble I have to turn up the main volume so high that it hurts my ears.

My basement room I use now is 23' x 17' and I've tried it all. I've tried the couch on a wall (2 different walls), couch 3/4 lenght of room back from the speakers, couch 1/4 lenght of room back from speakers, couch right in the middle of the room (I know that's a no-no) etc. Seriously my wife thinks I'm OCD when it comes to constantly re-configuring the room.

Thing is I have two other rooms with speakers set up (I have m3's in the living room) and those tone controls are up too. The tone controls are up in my car, the eq is tweaked to up the bass/treble in my classroom at school - it goes on and on.

I'd love to hear someone else's system that sounds great to them with the controls neutral with metal music playing. To me the sound is so small, almost clock-raidio-ish (well, not that bad but you get the point).

I've been a lurker/occasional poster here for years and I didn't want to admit all this...

Thanks Alan, I responded before I saw your post. BTW, I love my m60's and m3's it's not their fault. I have done this with all the speakers I've ever owned. The Axioms in fact are the only speakers I have had that I didn't really crank up the treble, I just turn it up to +3. The bass... I don't want to admit that one!!!

Cameron, do you think you might have some loss of sensitivity in your hearing spectrum in the bass and/or treble region, due to damage or illness or long-term exposure to high SPLs?

You could find out if you go to an audiologist and have your hearing tested. It's also somewhat age-dependent. Males all lose some sensitivity after age 30--it's very gradual--and the parts of the spectrum where we lose sensitivity may vary from one person to another. Most commonly it's the really high frequencies that go first, 15 kHz and higher, but there's nothing of musical interest up there, except a few harmonics that are extremely low-level and musically not important.

But if you lost sensitivity in the upper midrange and bass, that might be reflected in your tendency to crank up the bass and treble.

Maybe you just need an EP500 subwoofer to restore the lower octaves, ha, ha!

Regards,

That very well could be the case. I'm 34 and I do have quite a bit of tinnitus (constant ringing of the ears usually because of over exposure to loud noises). It only bothers me at night but I crank up the fan and that helps.

I had my ears tested 3 or 4 years ago because of it and my hearing was actually above average or normal or whatever they call it. I was surprised because when I put on those headphones in the sound proof booth I thought there was no way I was going to hear anything above the shrill ringing in my own ears, but I did well on the test.

I have cranked up the tone controls ever since I was a little kid. I remember my friend up the street who introduced me to metal/hard rock (hearing Highway to Hell at age 8 was a moment in time I'll never forget) had his tone controls both maxed out with the bass boost on (I think it was called a loudness button back then) and to this day he still has his current receiver set this way. Maybe it's all the hours at his house growing up that shaped how I hear music.

I'm good to go on subs (although is there really such a thing as good to go on subs?). I have a svs dual 12 inch box sub (can't remember the model) at the front of the room and a near field sub (dayton 10 inch) right next to me for some tactile feel.

I have the Dayton crossed over at 80 hz so I mostly feel it, not so much hear it. I turn it off for movies.

Cameron, since you've had your tone controls "hot" since you were a little kid, I believe you have sensitized yourself to that quality of sound. You may want to try flattening them for say a month of listening to see how you like the difference. I would recommend this particularly with the bass as you may be missing "textures" with your bass turned up so high. Most drivers don't do as good a job with fine details when the bass is run hot.

I have to admit I'v never made it more than a couple of days running it flat. It's like asking a herion addict to just hold the needle and look at it.. but don't inject!

Good idea though, I really should try going cold turkey for an extended period of time. In the past when I give in and crank up the bass and treble again it's always like, "whoaaaa that's what I needed!!!"

I absolutely love listening to music, it's something I do every single day - I'll try it out and report how it's going. This is not going to be easy...

Should I turn off the subs? When I calibrate using avia, I can't get the sub levels to match no matter how low I turn the subwoofers volume.

In fact, if I completely turn off the sub and just have the bass tone going through the main speakers the meter still goes higher for the bass tone that is supposed to be going through the subwoofer (but obviously can't be becaues it's turned off) than the tone that's supposed to go through the main speaker. Does that make sense?

I tried explaining that on other forums to no avail, no one knew what the hell I was talking about.

The sub tone cycles back and forth between the speaker and the sub and it is louder on the meter on the sub tone than the speaker tone EVEN EITH THE SUB OFF! And the speakers are set to cross over at 80 hz.

Totally off topic there, but do you guys know what I mean? I'm thinking I might just turn off the sub and use the mains for my cold turkey test.

I may have just missed it, but I can't seem to find the brand/model of your sub in this posting.

SVS dual 12 inch box far field, Dayton 10 inch near field.

Hi Cameron, as a fellow metal man, I can safely assure you that what you are hearing is not just you. I find my older cd's just don't cut it with the Axioms or most speakers for that matter. The material has been recorded so cheaply and poorly that you have to tweak it some just to make it listenable. Some of my recent purchases appear to have been recorded much better and I have found some of my older cd's in remastered form, these remasters sound much better.

Yeah, I pump up the subs even more on say Kill 'em All or Rust in Peace, or Night of the Stormrider. However, on newer better recorded metal like Opeth or Dream Theater I still have the bass/treble boosted up.

The album that I have the bass set the lowest is probably In Absentia, but again I do have it higher than flat that's for sure.

It all depends upon what I'm listening to. Most things I run with flat tone control. Listening to FM radio, however, I pull down the treble to -3 and push the bass to +2 and turn the sub off (most DJ voices turn into small explosions if I leave the sub on and the -3 treble takes care of the sibilance). So really, you're not alone.

Scott

I run with no tone controls on my Axiom setup but I do use them with my portable headphone rigs.

Cameron,

I know exactly what you mean by hot bass even when your sub is off. I have the same issue. I use an 80Hz cross-over between my 80s and 600. With the sub off and the main gain set to about a half watt per channel, my 80s produce 96dB at 80Hz. That is way too hot frankly.

The reason you and I have this problem is due to room modes. Room treatment may help but frankly, until I better understand exactly what it is that I have to do to treat it, I'm not spending the time or money experimenting. If you figure it out, certainly let me know.

Tone controls are there to be used on material which needs it.

Update:

Right after starting this thread I tried listening to everything flat, but that only lasted 2 nights. My M60's just sounded very flat, small, and weak when listening to music this way.

Quickly I returned to cranking up the bass and treble which satisfied the thumpy bass and shimmering highs that I like. Unfortunately the clarity took a big hit, so now I was stuck craving the clarity of no tone controls while I had the bass/treble cranked and craving the impact/feel of the music when the tone controls were off - frustrations galore!!!

Last night I had an idea that I hadn't tried before. I have always had my main speakers far away from both the back wall and side wall. About 2 1/2 feet from the back wall and 4 feet from the side wall (my room is an 18' x 23' rectangle and the speakers are on one of the 18' walls).

I had always read on forums that the more you can move speakers out from the wall the better, so I have always done that. Also, I changed my mains to large and turned the subs off. I've tried that before, but when I did my speakers were far from the walls so it didn't seem to do much.

Well, I moved my speakers about 6 inches from the back wall and 1 foot from the side wall.

Suddenly my m60's sounded big... I had to check twice just to make sure my tone controls were really flat. Wow, tight and controled bass at the same time? I thought that was just a pipe dream.

I know my new speaker placement is a big no-no, but man it sounds better. It's not perfect and I can really tell the difference between albums now, but I think I may have found my solution that I have been looking for for years now. I would still like a bit more tactile feel/slam from the bass, but it's soo much better than the former speaker placement with flat tone controls.

I don't want to get too excited because there have been many times that I thought I had found what I was looking for only to realize after a few days that it wasn't so great after all.

I was really getting bummed out, because my favorite past time is listening to music but it was like I was force feeding myself something I didn't really like all that much. I hope this is the answer...

Your new placement is not a big no-no. It is just that, with most rooms, bass becomes boomy when near a corner. If the geometry of your room makes it such that you have a null field where you sit, you may have needed the additional bouncing-off-the wall of some lower frequencies all along.

Cross your fingers that you newfound harmony lasts!

That's good news, cameron. Often, there are general rules most people try to follow for speaker placement, but there are so many variables that not everything will work. Speaker placement and room acoustics can be the two most frustrating yet rewarding variables to work with. A little patience and a lot of tweaking can go a long way. The rule that is the most important to follow is: use what sounds best to you.

Hello Cameron,

"I had always read on forums that the more you can move speakers out from the wall the better, so I have always done that."

This is misguided advice. As long as you don't put floorstanding speakers in the corners, which may result in too much bass reinforcement, most floorstanding speakers are designed to benefit from the deep bass boundary reinforcement that the floor and wall behind the speaker provide. Of course, you don't want to jam them up flat against the back wall, but the M60s can certainly be used with 6 inches clearance.

It's corners that are a no-no for most speakers except, in some applications, subwoofers.

The only speakers that I advise moving well out (2-5 feet) from the wall behind are floorstanding bipole and dipole designs (electrostatics, planar magnetics like Magnepans, bipoles like Mirages, etc) where you want the speakers' in-and-out of phase rear radiation to reflect from the back wall.

I'm pleased that you've got your M60s sounding good.

Regards,

Thanks guys.

I have a big 65" rear projection monster tv in between the speakers, so I always assumed that if the speakers were not out in front of it it would ruin the soundstage. So far, that is not the case. I don't know if the physics work but to my ears it works and like you guys say that's all that matters.

Time will tell if this is my permanent fix, but I'm cautiously optomistic. Why the hell am I so picky anyway?

Alan,

I have the right speaker 1 foot from the side wall and the left speaker 18 inches from the side wall. Is this enough?

Cameron:
I only have a moment, so please excuse me for not making a detailed post about this, but....

Be VERY careful when "turning up the bass all the way". Your asking the speakers (and amp) to supply many, many times the bass / power as a "flat" setting and it's not hard to do damage!

Cameron, Alan's description of the advice you read before as "misguided" is certainly accurate from my study and personal experience. You don't have to be concerned about being too close to the wall behind as long as the port has at least a few inches of "breathing room". One factor that is significant is that you shouldn't have the distance from the center of the woofer cones to the back and side walls equal. If they're equal, the room boundary reinforcement from the walls would pile up near one frequency, causing boominess, so keep those distances different.

Cameron: Don't let someone tell you how to listen to your music. Feel free to 'enhance' it anyway you see fit. And just remember that in the mastering of that CD you buy, the music has already been adulterated many, many times by amongst other things, op-amps.

I'm happy to say that the changes are still sounding good. The highs sound so good now, and I still get impact from the bass. Don't get me wrong, it's nothing like the impact I used to get in college with cerwin vega 15" woofers with the bass boost on, bass knob all the way up, and a graphic eq with a smiley face configuration....man I was insane... but I'm willing to bet if I heard that setup now I would think it sounded like crap.

The last few nights I've been doing a lot more listening to the actual music instead of thinking about the sound quality.

I hope this keeps up.

I took some pictures of my room, I'll post them when I figure out how to do it.

I finally got around to figuring out how to post pictures. Well, it's been over a week and I'm loving how my system is sounding more and more. I haven't touched a tone control or used the sub for music at all, and it sounds fantastic. I am a very happy guy, but I've been losing sleep because it's hard to turn it off and go to bed!!

I'll probably start a thread with these pics in the home theater section, I hope double posting isn't too frowned upon when one of them is not starting a thread.

I've had all these speakers/subs for at least 3 years now, and I'm just now fully appreciating them.






Ahhh yes. Motivation was high to take out the shelf to hang up the speaker, but very low to paint where the shelf used to be...:)




A rare moment when all the toys are put away. Nice pillow, busting at the seams.



I have since extended the sub cord so it's not sticking out from under the couch... too tempting for a 2 year old.




Media Library shot using winamp hooked to my tv. It looks clearer/better than this picture, I'm impressed with the quality for just using s-video. I'd love to use component cords but so far all insructions on line look like a nightmare to understand.



Here's a shot of a playlist, once again it looks better in person.

Wow, 2 weeks and I haven't touched a tone control. Instead of listening to see how much I like the sound, I am now simply listening to the music... what a concept. I wish I had moved these baby's back to the wall years ago. I moved the speakers back out into the room away from the wall just to check, and yep they sounded thin and lifeless again.

I measured my new speaker postion from the sweet spot so I could reset my speaker distance settings on me receiver and I'm 14 feet away from them. Out of curiosity I measured how far apart they now are and they are... 14 feet apart! I have noticed that the imaging is much better now even with the big tv in the middle, I wonder if that's because of the equalateral triangle that I've got now.

Have you tried to play with the toe in? Does it make any difference? Being 14' back I suspect that toe in will do little to add or detract from anything. The equilateral triangle does make for a much improved imaging/soundstage.

I have them toed in so the tweeters would hit a point a couple of feet behind my head, that seems to work the best although I think your right because the imaging/soundstage is good no matter how I set them. I like how the highs sound with them toed in though.

For most recordings I'm finding that I don't use a sub at all, for a few I have my subs crossed over very low (around 50-55) and the bass still going to both the mains and the sub with the subs filling in a bit. I'm shocked that you don't really need a sub with music that is recorded well...

I think I may have wasted my money on the svs sub after all. Don't get me wrong, it's great for movies and about 3 times a month or so it gets a workout with a new movie off of Netflix. Other than that I'm all about music so it is rarely getting used now.