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#198867 - 03/03/08 02:04 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: RickF]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Randy, I think you may need a new reciever with a better bass management system, one that lets you adjust the master volume of the whole system when calibrating.

Denon would not be in the running for this.
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#198868 - 03/03/08 02:05 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: RickF]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
I've got it, and may have to give him a call sometime. The other issue is my meter seems to read a lot different if I'm using 70dB versus 80db scale. Is either one more accurate than the other?

I know Jakeman says to calibrate your subs 3dB's lower than the speakers to get them the same.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#198870 - 03/03/08 02:15 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: SirQuack]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I know Jakeman says to calibrate your subs 3dB's lower than the speakers to get them the same.
I think that was for dual subs for three I think it might be more like 4-5 db lower.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
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#198871 - 03/03/08 02:18 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: RickF]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4842
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
my ep500 is set at 7 oclock and must be set at -10 db to get 75 db with the rest of my speakers.

I have the denon 3808
_________________________
-David

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#198872 - 03/03/08 02:20 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: terzaghi]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
I've noticed that if you get the receiver set to low, then the graphs I've done with the SMS-1 or Rew suffer and create dips in the lower freq's. I've found on my 2805 that I have to stay above -8dB's or so..to keep the graph smoother.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#198874 - 03/03/08 03:06 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: SirQuack]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Next question, is that due to Denon doing something weird with their control or the subs inability to play a softer signal?
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#198875 - 03/03/08 03:07 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: jakewash]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4842
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Hmm.. Maybe I should turn the sub down closer to "min" and up the db in the receiver as close to 0 as possible... I always fel that 7 oclock on the dial was low enough.... Mayby I should turn it lower.

When I hooked up two ep 500's I noticed something weird. I had them daisy chained... The sub that came directly from the receiver Had to be set ver low (7 oclock like it is now) but the ep500 daisy chained off of the first sub had to be set at 60% volume for them to be equal in output. (perhaps it was a placement issue?)

Anyway- I had to ship the second sub back before I could do any more experimentation.
_________________________
-David

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#198879 - 03/03/08 03:35 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: Hutzal]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 851
Loc: Toronto
Lets go back to first principles. \:\)

Besides smoother FR, more sub headroom and better amp efficiency, another major benefit from multiple subs comes from mutual coupling or "free" output. Depending on placement dual subs will generate up to 6db more output, 3 subs up to 9 db, and 4 subs up to 12 db. In Randy's case he appears to be getting the additional output of 9db. Here's how I would calibrate:

1. Make sure the sub trim at the processor is at -10 or well below the midpoint but leave yourself some room if necessary to lower sub trim further.

2. Make sure the speakers are level matched at 75db. Make sure all subs are bypassed and phase is at 0 . Measure the distance of the 3 subs plus 3 ft for the 600 DSP and another 3 ft for the SMS DSP. Divide by 3 and use that to set the distance for the subs.

3. Shut off the EP350v3s( let's call them A and B) and run a sweep to just the 600. Raise gain at the sub so that the 600 is calibrated at only 70db (that's right 70db). This may take time because the DSP circuit at that level is very sensitive to small changes in the volume control on the 600.

4. Shut off the 600 and 350v3 B. Run a sweep and adjust gain at sub 350v3 A to 70db.

5. Shut off the 600 and 350v3 A> Run a sweep and adjust gain at sub 350v B to 70db.

6. The only sub that should be on is 350v3 B. Now turn on 350v3 A and run the sweep so both 350s engaged. You should measure around 75db. If not check your polarity on one of the subs.

7. Turn on the 600 so all subs are on and run a sweep. you should measure around 76-78db.

8. Now using your SMS dispaly to see where to adjust the phase switch on the 600. Choose the phase which gets you the smoothest response not the loudest volume. The ep350v3s at the front should be at 0 phase.

9. Using the SMS connected to the 350s and running sweeps. Disable the SMS low pass filter and crossover. Adjust the variable phase in the SMS test menu in increments of 15 deg to find the smoothest FR.

10. Now use the SMS parametric filters to cut peaks only. You may need to go back and check the phase settings again once you have set the filters. With multiple subs the filters will sometimes raise peaks or lower nulls so experiment in both directions. Nice thing about all those subs is you aren't using up much headroom in the sub amp so you can raise the filters if necessary.

11. You should be close to 75-78db with all 3 subs engaged. You may want to check different crossover settings to get the smoothest response. Adjust sub trim at the processor to where you want your target SPL for all 3 subs combined.

12. Move the subs around slightly to find the best placement and FR for that configuration.

13. Change the delay in the processor while running sweeps to see if it smooths FR.

14. Go back to #8 above and review all settings one more time to fine tune.

Let me know. ;\)




_________________________
John

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#198889 - 03/03/08 04:22 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: jakeman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13318
Loc: Iowa
Jakeman, if you recall, I do not have the 600 going through the SMS-1, just the 350's. The 350's are setup on the front wall. It is 15ft wide and I have the drivers exactly 1/3 from the side walls, or 5ft apart.

The 600 initially was placed to the sides of the listening area, and at the same distance as the front subs, also taking into mind the 3ft delay.

I found that the graph was smoother when I placed the 600 along the back wall, close to the rear corner about 6ft in.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#198890 - 03/03/08 04:34 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: SirQuack]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 851
Loc: Toronto
Sounds good so far Randy. It read like your problems stemmed more from trying to calibrate each sub at 75db rather than something less to account for the "coupled" output.

SMS on either both or one 350v3 is what I would attempt first. When you set the SMS filters also try it with one 350v3 if you are having trouble cutting the peaks. As you pointed out, with multiple subs cutting output on one sub can result in increased peaks elsewhere because of the way the sound waves from the 3 subs are reinforcing or cancelling each other.

Also if setting sub level at 70db still results in combined sub output close to 80db you will need to set the subs to say 68db.

If you set it up right, you may be able to do away with the SMS entirely though I find its a great tool even when not connected.

PS I like your new avatar but she doesn't look like you. \:\/
_________________________
John

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