Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Bose Intervention

Help!

Sorry for the post length.

I have become a comic strip character. My brother-in-law is hot to buy a Bose 3-2-1 GS.

He can get it for $800 but wouldn’t mind spending less.

He is sold on the idea of getting “surround” out of just the two speakers, and his lovely wife seems to miss not having access to a radio.

He has a new Hitachi 50” 720p plasma, an older Sony 5-DVD carousel (“it’s big”), Dish Network HD DVR and a Wii. He’ll get a Blu-Ray player when they become cheap.

The room cannot be rearranged. It is a smallish alcove next to the kitchen/dining area. It has no left rear wall and opens to a large living room. Most use is TV, with some movies and a little bit of music.

I love my wife’s brother and his family, and want to help them find a solution that is satisfying. Please provide me with additional wisdom. Letter below.

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Thanks for asking. I do enjoy this stuff.

I might need a picture of where your TV is.

You should do whatever makes [spouse] happy.

That being said, there is a lot to consider.

What you’re trying to do is replace several discrete components all at the same time.

• DVD Player. You already have one, so the only advantages of replacing it now are system integration and saving space. DVD players are cheap. Personally, I'd save the money now and get a Blue-Ray player later.
• Receiver (including tuner, amplifier, surround processor). You’ve got to have this stuff. You can’t put quality components on a postage stamp. There are electrical laws to be obeyed here.
• Main Speakers (front left, right and center). Okay, size matters. With the Bose and other similar speakers, the small size prevents them from reproducing sound down below about 200Hz. Consequently, the woofer module has to produce frequencies that are much higher than a typical subwoofer. The downsides are twofold; performance is compromised (the deep notes just are not there) and the sound is more easily localized (either it’s not there at all, or you can tell it is coming from the woofer module instead of the main speakers).
• Surround Speakers. Keep in mind that NONE of the “one box” solutions is going to provide as realistic or enveloping surround sound as even the most modest system that actually has 5 discrete speakers. I know you are all about making the installation clean, but even some inexpensive inwall speakers are going to dramatically outperform any of the quasi-surround effects generated by the Bose, Yamaha, Polk, etc. alternatives.
• Subwoofer. Anything that comes with a HTIB (Home Theatre In a Box) is not going to be very good. Size of the box and the woofer and the amplifier power all make a pretty huge difference. There is a wide chasm between real subwoofers and the mid-bass modules like the Bose Acoustimass system.
• Universal Remote Control (component integration). This is really pretty important. Part of the allure of the Bose is that you’re NOT going to have to dink around with multiple remotes and multiple boxes. However, there are alternatives, like universal remotes (URC, Harmony, etc.) and buying a CD player and receiver from the same manufacturer.

It stands to reason that – beyond the notion that you get what you pay for – having discrete components for each of these functions is going to give you better performance.

But it’s not all about performance.

In your case, it is also about these factors, which might be even more important than performance

• Value
• Ease of use
• Size

You WILL make compromises. It is up to you to decide where to make them.

It is terribly important to remember that the “simplicity” and integration of the Bose type systems does NOT save you money and does NOT give you improved performance. You are paying a premium for convenience.

One other significant drawback to the all-in-one solution is that you simply cannot upgrade or replace it in increments. If you use a different strategy, you can upgrade piece-by-piece. If you have to replace the Bose system, you just have to replace it all.

My personal opinion is that you would benefit FAR more from having a high quality 2.1 system than you will from a concocted surround thing. If it was me, especially in that small room, I’d get a modest receiver, a good, inexpensive subwoofer and a pair of decent small speakers and go from there. I think that LFE in movies (and music) is far more interesting than surround effects. And you could always add surround speakers later.

Now, I’d try to talk you into separating some of these things out for the reasons I’ve described (value, performance, upgradeability). However, there are various scenarios.

Scenario One: You have to have all of this in one system (like the Bose). One/Two speaker solution with integrated DVD player. There are not many alternative products.

I think Bang and Olufson still makes some wildly expensive equipment. Very overpriced, but it does exist. I think just the speaker is about $4,000.

The KEF Kit 120 instant theatre system costs about $2,000. I would not buy it, but it does provide a good frame of reference. I’ll bet it sounds superb. KEF is a great company.

The Philips HTS8100 provides direct competition for a modest price. It has MUCH better video features than the Bose (HDMI output instead of component) and also seems to have better integration of USB and iPod. You can get it for $600 through Amazon
or Best Buy. The reviews on Amazon can be pretty good sometimes.

The not-yet-released (April 2008) Polk Audio Surround Bar 360 has an MSRP of $1,200. I would expect it to vastly outperform the Bose or Philips offerings, as it should for twice the price. There is a similar, cheaper alternative from Polk that requires separate electronics (see a different scenario below).

Scenario Two: You really want just that one speaker, but you might be willing to consider keeping your existing DVD player or getting a new, smaller one for cheap

The downside here could be the radio issue. Not all of these types of things have integrated radio. I would of course encourage use of the Dish Network channels, but that is up to you.

Boston Acoustics TVee Model Two is a simple, stereo soundbar. It comes with a small sub that is wireless (except for the power; no speaker cord to the sub). You just run the audio output from your TV to the unit and go. Could not be easier. It doesn’t do “surround”, but this might actually be a pretty decent option for you. It’s not expensive, it’s super easy, and it doesn’t even require another remote control. It is JUST an upgrade to your TV speakers. Worth considering. MSRP $349. It does not seem to be available for less.

Yamaha makes THE BEST solutions in this area. But they are a bit more expensive. You’d have an outboard DVD player and a sub. But the effects can be very good, although in your room, I just don’t know how effective ANY of these things will be. Still, the Yamaha’s are a good value when you consider that they replace a set of speakers AND a receiver.

The YSP-900 is $699 at Vanns. Etronics has it for $535. It comes with a microphone to calibrate to your room.

The YSP-3000 costs a little more, but it has HDMI, better video, a built-in FM tuner and a bunch of other stuff. There are some deep prices out there, but make sure you get a reputable seller. I’ve never done business with them, but Etronics seems to get decent reviews.

Denon makes GREAT products. The DHT-FS3 includes the sub, but it’s $1,200.

They also recently introduced a similar product with a $499 MSRP (DHT-FS5), but I can’t find it anywhere yet.

The ZVox gets really good reviews.

I don’t know much about Niro, but here are other options.

I would absolutely consider this $299 SoundMatters solution as an alternative to the Bose

Scenario Three: You really want just that one speaker, but you’re willing to have separate DVD and Receiver:

There’s really only one choice – The Polk Surround Bar for $500 at Amazon. Add a modest receiver for ~$150 and an inexpensive sub for ~$200 for a fine sounding, very upgradeable system.

Scenario Four: You’re willing to have separate speakers and components.

This is what I would do..

Get a refurb Onkyo TXSR505 receiver for $149. This is a VERY robust, modern receiver for a great value. Lots of switching and surround modes.

Or, better yet, I’ll sell you my Denon 1804 for the same price

Throw a $75 upscaling DVD player in your cart if you want to use the same remote for everything.

I’d get a pair of small, decent main speakers and a sub. You could also get a center channel, but I honestly think that you’d be pretty happy with a phantom center (matrixed by the left/right channels), especially since you sit relatively close. You can always add a center channel later.

I am very predisposed to internet direct companies. They’ll all let you try their stuff for free for a while.

Lots of choices. Any of which you’d be VERY happy with for many years.

Aperion Audio is in Portland. A couple different choices for $200-260/pair. They’ll pay shipping BOTH WAYS if you don’t like them.

av123 x-ls $299/pair plus shipping. Very nice.

Ascend Audio has a fanatical following. Good option at $298/pair including shipping

I’m a big fan of Axiom speakers. We have the M60’s. Very happy customer. Get the Factory Outlet ones to save 10%. M2’s for $266/pair, M3’s for $298. Including shipping

I have a (made in USA) SVS Subwoofer. Another great company. Their bookshelf speakers get good reviews. $225 plus shipping.

This is probably the cheapest subwoofer I’d consider buying. It is a great value at $199 plus shipping.

For the surround channels, since you want inwalls, don’t get fancy. It’s just the surround speakers. I have these Mirage in the kitchen and I’m satisfied. Easy to install. You have a basement; how hard can it be to run some wire? $99 free shipping no tax.

If you can tolerate little black boxes instead, the Hsu Ventriloquist system is a killer for $539 including shipping. Very serious subwoofer.

There are lots of speaker choices. For a fantastic value, this KEF KHT1005 would tide you over for quite a while. $299 including five speakers and the sub.

Tom,

Wow, you really did your homework on this one - great job!

My vote goes to scenario 4 in a 2.1 or 3.1 configuration. If he is sitting that close, the phantom centre will fall apart for anyone not in the sweet spot. (Add inexpensive in-walls (or ceiling) for surround later if he wants.)

My only criticism is that you gave him WAY too many options - I'd par those down by half, or just tell him to get the TXSR505, 3 x M2's across the front, and the x-sub. Done. Kills the Bose, and supports both families here at Axiom and at AV123.

Tom, this is a tough one. I like the suggestion of a 2.1 system, especially if this is something your brother-in-law wants to expand on. How serious is he about audio/video stuff? If it's a growing passion, then, yes, building piecemeal is the way to go.

How big is the space for the HT? If it's small, maybe the HTIB thing is the way to go. I know that's blasphemy, but the big draw of small speakers is a powerful one. However, if your bro-in-law is willing to plunk down $1000 bucks for a system it sounds like he's ready for something serious.

He opened a whole can of worms with you huh!

If the room really demands minimal hardware (like a bedroom setup.) I might go try out the Zvox 425 and a PS3 (with its remote), which can process all the discs.

Thank you, gentlemen.

It is a small space; exterior walls at the rear and right, open to the dining/kitchen on the left and facing the TV / Fireplace room divider thick wall thing at the front. Probably 12x12 or so.

HTIB doesn't really help; one of the main problems is speaker proliferation. Since he already has a DVD player, I don't see how you could go HTIB based on anything but money. The Onkyo and the KEF 5.1 is $400 plus shipping.

He wants "better sound" and I need to find something his wife will like enough to not blame me for discouraging the Bose.

I agree with pretty much everything above. However, I would caution a LOT more strongly against the single speaker, sound bar solution.

Short Version:
It won't work in his setup anyways. These sound bars work by reflecting the surround sound channels off of walls and by applying delay to simulate that it's coming from the rear/sides, etc.. They are missing key walls from thier room layout so I can't see a sound bar ever working there. They are almost impossible to calibrate in a plain old square room.

Long version:
I have been in two homes now where these have been installed.
In the first home, the surround effects were obviously still coming from up front. We spent a couple of hours fidgeting with the aim of the different drivers, the timing delays and scratching our heads with the manual trying to reproduce a surround effect that actually felt like it came from the sides or rear. All it did was make surround effects sound, well.... peculiar. No go. He took it back to the store.

The second house had it installed and calibrated by the stores audio pro. I still could not detect any sound coming from a 'suround' angle. Maybe on extremely high pitched effects but to me it seemed more like an echo of the original sound from the front. Made it sound worse than if it just plainly came from the front. Might have been a delay problem but I wasn't touching his "professionally calibrated' system as he was very proud of it. I did my best to appear positive and not spoil his fun.

Both systems were very lacking in bass. This is to be completely expected considering the tiny little drivers in the bar. Both had a sub but in at least the first house, it was connected to the LFE channel and his cheap 'all in one' receiver didn't allow him to play with the crossover setting. Second house was a bit better but as Tom said, the bass wasn't natural as the sub was doing the work where it shouldn't be. It kept drawing my eyes down to the sub when there was a bit of bass in a scene. Very distracting.

Separate components absolutely are the way to go. here are my two votes, inline with Tom's an in no particular order.

Option 1
Spend your budget on cheap but decent reciever (Tom's example was good), a cheap but decent upscaling DVD player (dirt cheap these days) and spend every other cent left in your budget on the best pair of main speakers you can buy. Of all the items you buy, the speakers make the biggest difference in sound quality. The two main speakers work the hardest of all so they should be the best you can afford in order to give you the most "wow" factor.

Then save up for a decent sub. (or throw it in with the mains as Tom suggested.) A good sub can turn the worst action movie into a whole new exiting experience. Then save up for some surround speakers. Surround effects are a lot of fun but I think I have come to agree with Tom. Many producers do a poor job of adding surround effects into their movies. Some movies just have hardly any effects at all. It's a lot of fun when you hit a movie with lots of surround action but I'm often disappointed by the lack thereof.

Leave the center channel for last. It anchors the speech and other directly front sounds to the middle of your screen where they belong. A good set of mains will naturally do this on thier own as long as you are sitting near the middle of the room, left to right. If you are way off to the side, the center is a big help but that's where you sit the guests and they often never notice. heh heh.

Other option.
Get into surround sound and subwoofer style bass right off the bat. An entry level HTIB is not a bad thing for someone who can't afford a top of the line sounding system right off the bat. I usually explain to people why bigger is better but having even a low end surround sound system is a lot more fun than having none at all.

JUST MAKE SURE IT IS A KIT THAT LETS YOU UPGRADE LATER!. A 5.1 suround sound speaker only set, might be the ticket. That way you can buy a receiver that will be more likely to let you upgrade everything else in the future. OR go for a complete HTIB solution that actually includes a separate receiver of a half decent quality. That way, it's still an easy to buy package but the speakers can easily be upgraded later. I have read some nice things about the Denon and Onkyo HTIB kits. Both have nice entry level receivers and some decent speakers (for the 'satellite' category.) Both should be around the 500 - 600 dollar mark, I think. The Onkyo system might not include a player, can't remember, but a good player is dirt cheap these days.

Gets you started with lots of room to grow, when you get there, and you will!

Final comment, or lack thereof. I didn't get into the room shape at all but I'm betting that you and your wife can figure out an unobtrusive place to fit those surrounds. Especially since I am quit sure a suround speaker bar will never work properly in that layout.

Wow, I usually get sniped by a poster as I type way too long winded replies, but never by 4 posts before!!! I really need to find another hobby to do while on boring conference calls.

Another thought. Since the already has a DVD player. The ONkyo kit might be perfect for him.

Oh and one more thing to mention to your brother in law. All technical advice aside.... If he buys BOSE, we will make fun of him!!!! LOL kidding.

Home theater in a box isn't all bad... I have a home theater in a box... well.. eight boxes.. one of which looked like it could have had a dryer in it. :-D

If you can, post a photo of the configuration that could help most of us narrow it down a lot more. Also will this be his "main" setup or more of a side-project rec room kinda thing? I might make bigger concessions in a room that isn't dedicated to viewing/listening (maybe a parlor, pool table, etc.) than if it's my showpiece center of my entertainment world.

Another option might be to do a little more wife training. Sneak her into some nearby setups that could blow HER away. You can always massage the user interface by setting up a universal remote with her usual activities easy to find.

That is another good suggestion. My wife did a 180 (maybe at least a 175) on the new home theater when she saw & heard the Axioms. The HG Cherry finished helped to be certain... With her, appearance is every bit as important as sound. When she heard them though, she was won over, and she is not a person who ever has gotten really excited about good sound in the past. (we replaced a 5.1 Bose system with Axioms, so it's fairly relevant experience, though we now have a dedicated room... so maybe it's not!)

I bought one of thos Bose 1-2-3 systems when they came out a few years ago before I knew about Axioms, real sound, crossovers, frequencies or anything else audio. And that is only what those are good for--other than stoking the fireplace on a cold winter's night!! There really is not very much surround on most music or movies and the SQ is at least a -11 on a scale of 1-10 + or -. Just my 2 cents. For $800 he can get a system that will be soooooooo good compared to the Bose. My wife thought she loved Bose until she first heard Axioms. You don't know any different because you don't know any different....