Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Power Conditioner or Amplifier ?

Hey guys, i was talking to my audiophile coworker who asked me if i had a power conditioner and i said 'no'. I thought they were just overpriced surge protectors. I have a $100+ SP with all my gear plugged into it. He told me it wasnt enough. Now my question to you guys is,' Should i make the PC my number priority or save for a new amp?'.

What's his reasoning for saying it's not enough?

Joel, it's possible that your coworker, regardless of whether he's an "audiophile", isn't adequately informed on this topic. Audio equipment such as amplifiers have to have built-in provisions for power conditioning in their power supply section. The transformer, rectifier and filter capacitors take the AC from the wall outlet and convert it into clean DC for the amplifying section to work with. No additional conditioning is necessary with typical correctly designed units, although there're plenty of sellers out there who're happy to profit from the gullibility of some in this matter.

Power conditioners are perhaps one of the better examples of snake oil in the business. An amp is faaaaaar more likely to make a difference (and I'm still not sure it would) than a power conditioner.

I would go with an amp 100%.

Whats the purpose of a power conditioners anyways? If it is to clean the "dirty power" where, what, when and how would that occur?

I guess if I was running my home theatre off of a generator during a power outage then the power conditioner might help?

He was telling me that a 'brown-out' could kill my equipment moreso than a power surge. And another salesman was telling me that in the event of a spike, my circuit breakers in my home or SP couldn't trip fast enough to protect my gear. He then assured me that my picture and audio quality would improve because i would be getting a more consitant voltage to all my components.

I guess using his logic i should buy Monster Cables too.

Do you live in an area that has frequent brownouts and lightning storms?

I don't think that just buying a power conditioner is worth it. However, if you want some extra peace of mind you may want to look into a voltage regulator. If you can still find one of those silver apc h15's for $150 to $200, it may be a good investment. I've been happy with mine but haven't noticed any improvements in sound or picture quality at all (like some of the crazier people will try to tell you). The main function of it is to protect from over and under voltages and spikes that aren't too large. It also has filtering and conditioning like most others that you won't notice any difference having. No surge protector will protect from spikes that are too large, so the main purpose is that most companies offer life time coverage in the event that the unit doesn't suppress the surge. I would hope that the company would cut you a check to cover the replacement of most equipment and then your insurance company could cover anything that is left over. But, I've heard cases where they pro rate the value of your gear and such so who knows. Anyways they will surely give you more that the $200 investment in the unit in the case that all of your gear is fryed so you would come out ahead.

- Nick

I don't think there is a problem in investing in a decent surge protector, but all this talk about "Conditioning" is hogwash.

Surges...
I have assumed (rightly or wrongly) that when the power comes back on after an outage that there is, or might be a surge. Anyone know if this is true? Since when the power goes out, it often comes right back on in less than a minute. I used to run to unplug the HT surge protector, which all gear is plugged into. Now I just run for the main circuit breaker in the house, to shut it off. Though I work from home mostly, I realize I surely will not be able to catch this a good percentage of the time, but it makes me 'feel' better when I can do it. Of course, often times power comes back in a few seconds before I can get to the breaker.

I guess I am asking if, when the utility company turns the power back on after an outage, is there a surge? Am I correct to assume there is no surge when I simply turn on the main breaker. That would just be like turning on a light switch... no current/current, correct?

Brown outs...
This is the other reason I shut the breaker off because motors, like the refrigerator to not do well on low voltage. I would think electronic devices have circuits that shut down when voltage is out of spec (high or low). Either way, if electronic devices are OFF, they should not be affected by surges OR low voltage, I'd guess. But what about AVRs, cable boxes, etc that are partially powered in standby mode?

Good discussion of current as your friend and possible foe.

Anytime you switch the power on/off there is a surge, this is why lightbulbs quite often POP when the light switch is flipped. After a brown/blackout the same applies, but lots of equipment turn off when the power is cut and won't turn back on till the user flips the switch minimizing the surge to what can normally be expected on daily use and not the higher surge sometimes associated with the power lines being re-energized.

Oh yea, and what might be considered adequate protection at say a
minimal and a maximum (ie utility transformer blows up on your block or whatever) level?

I have Belkin BE112234-10 suppressors on my HT and computer. Where on the protection spectrum does this fall?
- AC RATING 15A/125V/1875W
- CIRCUIT TOTAL JOULES (8X20 US) 3996J
- CLAMPING VOLTAGE 330V
- MAX. SPIKE CURRENT (TOTAL) H-N 120000A, H-G 48000A, N-G 48000A
- MAX. SPIKE VOLTAGE 6000V

I don't know what all this means in real world terms. I just know the more Jules, the better. Is 3,996J pretty good?

Any electricians or EEs out there to add some light?

I don't see the use in conditioning the line, but have been toying with a UPS battery backup to allow the various fans to run for a bit when the power dies. I know (read: "I read somewhere") on Rear Pro TVs not running the fan to cool the bulb can cause some issues. Figure it can't help amps either.

Interesting. So would our AVRs in standby be open to surge damage when power lines are re-energized? Since my Denon 1909 has a manual toggle on/off main power button, it would re-energize when power was restored. Could that be a problem?

Charles,
Is the baby now puffing away in a more 'animated' way to due concerns of this power issue, or the broader economic/world worries of the day? Is he a see'er of impending (further) doom?

I do believe that anything in stand by mode is susceptible to the power surge from the re-energizing of the system as they are still technically 'on' and not switched off from the grid.

I've heard if you rub Hemp oil on your circuit breakers, it will condition your entire home and condition you lines.

Will hemp residue suffice, or due I really need to squeeze the oil out?

Hemp, isn't that what they used to make rope out of in the pre- twentieth century? Where in the heck would you find something that old these days??

I agree with the predominant opinion on this one - a "good" quality surge protector that has enough capacity to meet the needs of your HT is a good investment. I, and I'm sure many others, have experienced what a power surge can do to un-protected electronics. I'm sure the OP's $100+ SP is up to the task. From the price, it almost certainly has to be a "good" one. Unless it's a Monster-branded SP, in which case it's a known fact that Monster products pollute the laminar positron flow going into your amps. That will ultimately lead to a general feeling of uneasiness, nausea, and depression.

But I will offer up an anecdote...

Up until about a year ago, I had always just used a couple of standard 5/6 outlet surge protectors for my sensitive AV gear. Absolutely nothing fancy. Stuff rated to handle the capacity that I needed, but nothing more than that.

Ever since moving into our current home, 7 years ago, every so often when my system was on but not playing anything I would hear a very slight tiny little snap/pop/tick through the speakers when various power 'events' would happen in the house. My wife firing up the the clothes dryer, or sometimes when someone would turn on the microwave, and even when our neighbor's central air would spool up in the summer (our power lines run to the same transformer). I didn't really care, because it was rare and small enough to mostly ignore. Totally ignorable, but audible if my system was on but idling. Bottom line though, it was *something* that was being introduced to my system. I did ask an electrician about it and he just sort of said it was line noise and there wasn't anything he could do about it.

Then one day last year I found a refurb Belkin PF60 on super clearance for like ~$120. Not exactly cheap, but cheap-enough that I went ahead and bought one, mainly because I liked the idea of consolidating my plugs (AC, telephone, RG6) into one surge protector and the volt and amp display sounded like it'd be interesting to have.

I will not say that it had any affect on the "musical" SQ of my system. No increased soundstage, tighter bass, or lowered noise floor. But it *did* entirely eliminate that little snap/pop that I used to get from time to time. So that is something of a SQ improvement in my book. I don't know if it has to do with how it's grounding my equipment or if it's something in the PF60's circuitry itself, but it does make a difference. No more little snaps.

So from that, it was money well spent. And its nice to know that my Dish DVR pulls 1.1 amps even when it's "off" . And that my new "Energy Star" certified DLP HDTV actually does use less power than my old tube TV.

Sure, if you've got stuff like that going on, it makes sense. But a UPS would do the same thing. Buying a $600-1000 power conditioner makes no sense whatsoever.

So I wonder what percentage of the folks on these forums use either:
1) a universal power supply.
2) a (relatively) high end surge suppressor like Peter's or better.

I'm trying to figure where my Belkin 4,000 Jule surge suppressor falls in the range of risk coverage, say on a range of 1 - 10. (1 being least and 10 being maximum protection)

Belkin BE112234-10
- AC RATING 15A/125V/1875W
- CIRCUIT TOTAL JOULES (8X20 US) 3996J
- CLAMPING VOLTAGE 330V
- MAX. SPIKE CURRENT (TOTAL) H-N 120000A, H-G 48000A, N-G 48000A
- MAX. SPIKE VOLTAGE 6000V

I use a Belkin PF60 more because I like the look, pure eye candy, and can monitor the voltage fluctuations in my area than any benefits I have seen or heard.

I also use the Belkin PF60 although I found it for $149 (nowhere near that $599 MSRP). I bought it because we frequently have electrical storms and I thought that it might protect my AV equipment a little better than your average surge protector. One thing that is nice is that when there is a power surge the Belkin cuts off the power to my equipment until I reset it. It has done its job at least 3 times in the last two weeks.

I AM a sucker for things that 'measure', especially with a digital display! Think Homer: "Oooooooh, number on display..." (drool)

I checked the PF60 out. Very cool. But at $600, not so cool. At $120, oooh, maybe. ;o)

Peter and Jay, What amps do your respective AVR's draw at max levels? What is the maximum total amp draw with AVR and all other units that would be on at the same time?

Many have said we should have one or two dedicated 20 amp circuits to run our HT off of. But if this and most SP's have 15amp breakers, What is the use of a 20 amp circuit? Also, to use a second dedicated circuit, you'd need two SP's. Are they saying you spring for two high end SP's or relegate some equipment to a cheaper SP? Hmmmmn. Me wonders.

Seems with your amp draw readouts for individual banks and all banks, you could put this question to rest.

EDIT: I see PF60's are about +/- $225 w/ shipping (new) buy it now price on Ebay.

I have never seen the display show any more than 5-6 amps with my PB13, 3808, DVD, Wii, VHS and 5 disc cd changer all on at the same time, and the 3808 pushing the speakers about 95db, but I have a small room so I do not tax the system very much at all.

Jay,
I assume your display was on also, right?

This would seem to say that a dedicated 15 amp circuit is more than plenty.

Does the PF60 show any result of other things on that (non dedicated) circuit being on at the same time? Do you have any single (or all together) draws on that circuit that would create anywhere near the 15 amp circuit's limit? Is that house circuit 15 amp?

Thanks

This was the exact episode and moment that my wife started calling me Homer.

I bought mine from eCost. I lied. It wasn't $120, it was $144. Maybe it was $120+$24 shipping. I don't remember. It's a heavy box. See how the memory fades...

Past discussion on this: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=161443&fpart=1 You can see that this topic can cause tempers to flare...

~$200 isn't bad but you can do better. Like I said, these things go on sale every now and then. Put in a Pricegrabber alert and just sit back and wait a few weeks. Your patience may be rewarded.

While I don't regularly sit on the floor in front of the PF60 and watch the display change, I have seen it register as much as ~10 amps. That was with my old CRT Tube 36" TV, LPA-1, SVS PCi+ 20-39 sub, VSX-43TX AVR (as prepro), Dish DVR, and Denon DVD120 player. Though ~1.1 amps of that is just for my idle Dish DVR box, so ~9a was going towards 'music'.

I've since moved the sub to a wall outlet (better placement), but it is still on the same circuit. My PF60 now powers the same gear as above + a PS/3, an AppleTV, but with my 61" Samsung LED DLP instead of that old 36" CRT. I've seen it hit 7-8 amps during very loud 5.1 channel movie demos (+100db). But never more than that. This is on a 15a circuit. Never tripped it.

If I remember tonight, I'll see if I can change the display settings to just monitor the LPA-1's power bank output. I usually keep it in an 'All Banks' display, but it's configurable to just show individual banks, I think. Then I could tell you how many amps it'll pull when blasting M80's.

I am currently running an IBM 1500TLV UPS on my equipment. I feel better knowing that if the power goes out while I'm watching a movie, I can at least finish the current scene before I have to shut everything off

If you keep your eye out you can pick them up real cheap (mine was $60). Where I live there is a company that handles some of the oil firms IT and they had quite a few extras sitting around (never used) and they just wanted to get rid of them. I'm sure there are some other great deals as other companies are downscaling.

I too, bought mine from eCost, but paid the extra to get it in black, including shipping, taxes etc. it came to a little over $300cdn, much cheaper than the $500 I could find locally.

wow.

We've been calling you that for years.

I call him Homurph, myself.

Siblings separated at birth... (though I think I may have a multitude here on the forums!)

If you think there is something about the power effecting your audio, rebuild the power supplies in all your gear. Especially the stuff that probably has 78xx/79xx regulators in it, found often powering line stages in DACs/the converter chips themselves.

If you don't have the desire to learn this stuff, or do it, or don't know enough about basic power supply design to be able to point out the flaws in the power supplies used in tons of modern consumer level receivers(among other sections), I'd say you're not qualified to make the decision to spend money on a power conditioner.

If you REALLY think power is an issue(it often is, just not in the way that snake oil manufacturers advertise it is), then go nuts and replace all the supplies in your gear with stuff from power one linear. Making something as good as a good Power one Linear will cost as much and be much more trouble. You can find them on mouser and digikey, and on ebay often. I bought a $9.99 12vdc power supply for my DAC that improved it. Whether or not the sound quality is superior is something I'll not speak on since I didn't do an A/B test, but I know without an A/B test it significantly reduced the noise floor over the wall wart it came with.

The best case scenario is that the power conditioner gives you a perfect 120 VAC, with no extra noise. Most don't even do that much. This is meaningless if the power supply inside your gear does a poor job of converting the 120VAC to a smooth, flat line, ripple free DC of the proper voltage. I'd rather have a typical house A/C and spend my money on sick power supplies to convert that into pristine DC than spend a ton on something to make sure my A/C isn't noisy while completely ignoring the trash power supplies that might be sitting in my gear.

I'm not talking about what goes into NAD, Rotel, old Adcom, old Marantz, or Parasound. They are good companies with quality designs. I'm talking about the power supplies inside most low end(and even some high end) receivers. Even most "pro" audio gear is full of crap compared to what you find inside good hi-fi gear from the aforementioned brands.

If you use separates or integrated gear from a reputable company, you are probably fine. If you use some cheap 5.1 receiver, I would spend money replacing the 5v used to power the digital and the probable +/- 12-15v power supply used to power the line level stages in the device. Having the 12/15 bipolar and the 5v on separate transformers is ideal as the regulator for the 5v rail will have to work less and there'll be less noise leaking between the two. I always try to separate the supply for the digital from the supply for the analog.

Whether or not this sounds crazy is up to you, but two things are for sure:

a) It will cost way less than buying a good 120VAC power conditioner.

b) It will have a more measurable, and in the cases of poorly designed gear; actually AUDIBLE effect on sonic quality than a 120vac power conditioner.

But, most likely, it's best that you not go down the crazy road of modifying and probably for the first few projects ruining everything you own(like I did), when you can just sit back and enjoy the system you have.

<i>**once, before becoming electronics techncician, bought a power conditioner for his hi-fi, and lived to regret it and write this rant</i>