Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Sibilance

Gentlemen,

I've had my Axiom setup for a few years now (Epic 60-500), mated with Outlaw equipment (990/7125), Oppo DVD player and a Motorola 6412 cable box (Shaw Cable). Over this time I've thoroughly enjoyed my system, primarily watching cable television and movies, with some occasional music.

However, for some time now, I've come to notice quite a bit of sibilance from dialog, particularly watching cable television. I recognize that cable recordings aren't always great but it seems that I notice the sibilance on a wide variety of cable programming and also notice it when watching DVDs. I notice it less with music (which I listen to in Dolby Prologic II, utilizing my center channel).

Are there any methods by which I can try and reduce or eliminate some of this sibilance? I'm starting to fixate on it, particulary watching cable, and it is becoming somewhat annoying.

My receiver does have a 'Theater Compensation' setting which basically rolls off the high frequency range. I have tried this and it does help somewhat, but it tends to deaden the overall sound quality which I don't prefer. I do prefer the detail that my system provides but I'd like to reduce the sibilance. The sshhs and ttthhhs are driving me a bit nuts!

Any thoughts or advice? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

Bryan

I find msny TV shows, especially old or cheaply produced ones, are poorly recorded and come with a lot of sibilance built into them. Your M60s are extremely accurate so if there is sibilance in the soundtrack, it will 'accurately' reporduce it for your ears. Newer shows, especially big budget and HD shows are getting better. Kind of like when you buy your first big screen, HD TV expecting a better picture for all but it's size actually makes old or poorly produced shows look worse than your old cheap 22 incher. Like a big screen HD TV, it only shines when it receives a quality source and can be much less forgiving to crappy sources.

If some shows and DVDs are not producing any sibilance at all, it is very likely that it is just the speakers doing what they do best. Bringing out every detail of a sound track, accurately.

Of course this doesn't answer your question on how to reduce it, irregardless of where it comes from. I'm afraid I don't have much advice there. Playing with tone controls and other settings may help but the only consistant way to remove sibilance on a quality, working system is to not feed it any in the first place.

Others may have better advice on compensating for what is already there.

Hi icehawk21,

That does seem odd that you are noticing the sibilance mainly on TV and DVDs. While the M60s are detailed speakers, they do not have an exaggerated upper midrange or peak in that region that would emphasize sibilance. I hate the latter, and Lord knows, it's all too common on lots of CDs, partly because some recording engineers use a "presence" boost in that region so vocals will seem clearer when broadcast on radio (FM or AM) or heard on other media where losses occur. There are plenty of microphones that have a switchable "presence" emphasis that some singers and engineers like. When you hear those reproduced on an accurate linear system, the sibilance can drive you crazy.

When I do listening tests for Axiom, I'm especially sensitized to any trace of excessive siblilance that I believe to be inherent in the speaker. Some of the CDs we use do have traces of built-in EQ'd sibilance, for example, the highly praised live concert CD of the Eagles, "Hell Freezes Over" has a trace of vocal sibilance on the recording, which I allow for. So do some of Holly Cole's CDs and those of the BareNaked Ladies. For myself, I use some vocals that have no trace of artificial sibilance, so if I hear any, I know it's the result of a frequency response aberration in the speaker.

In your case, my suspicions are on the Shaw Cable feed via the Motorola box. As cable operators try and shove more and more HD and SD programming, Video on demand, internet and telephone services down the cable line, they are using more and more compression in order to lessen the bandwidth demands of the combined services. One of the side effects of too much compression can be an edgy sibilance on vocals and dialog.

You might try contacting the chief engineer of the Shaw system locally and find out if any of the compression algorithms might cause this.

As you discovered, the Theater Compensation setting isn't a great fix; you also try reducing the treble control a bit, but it's almost impossible to lessen the frequency range where sibilance occurs without also reducing the detail, which you like.

How are you feeding the audio from the Motorola cable box to your system? You might try the analogleft and right audio connections from the cable box (if it has them) to see if there is any reduction of sibilance in the TV programming.

I'd also turn off any auto-EQ like Audyssey that you might be using. Those tend to be error-prone and might be applying a boost in the dialog presence region.

Regards,

Alan

See by flaunting my lack of knowledge, it creates a bat signal for Alan to come to the rescue.

You can thank me later.

My AVR has the option to roll off the highs as well (which I do not use either). However if you find this helps for those sources where sibilance is an issue, can you save different presets in your AVR? That way you can just flip to the desired preset depending on the source material. More of a bandaid than a solution I'll admit, but that's all I can think of.

You could just try the old fashion method... whack your speakers a few times and see if that helps.

Murph, much of what you said is totally accurate.

Alan

Hi Icehawk21,

I can't help but ask if you run TV in stereo mode as these guys believe you are with M60s. I personally would assume you run Pro Logic/II on TV material so you are using the VP150 center for dialog correct? Interesting, they would seem to be playing dumb talking about your M60s when the problem is the VP150.

Here is a question for you Alan. Considering your extensive experience and testing of the Axiom product, have you not noticed "sibilance" on dialog with the VP150? I'm also curious why you'd go on to talk about the M60s when he's clearly talking about the VP150...

Solid-State

PS IMHO the driver layout for the VP150 makes it great for very near-field listening (2-4 feet)) or if your way back 15 plus feet. If your at the distance as is typical for home theater your a victim of all kinds of combing and off horizontal axis artifacts and these manifest as sshhs and ttthhhs. Alan have you not noticed this in your extensive listening tests?

By the way icehawk I have the EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE and it also was driving my uncle and me nuts. The solution was to use phantom center temporarily and replace the VP150. The better solution would be for Ian and the others from Axiom to actually design a new center. Heck outside of the outdoor speakers and that, no comment, dual sub woofer monstrosity, you guys haven't designed a new speaker for almost a decade!

Perhaps it's time to accept the design flaws on the VP150 and go back to the drawing board ehh!

Solid-State

I thought he said he was finally going away.

Sanity tip:

Click SolidState's name next to his post and choose View profile.
On his profile page, click Ignore this user.

This will hide his posts from you. You'll still see that he's posted something but the content is replaced by the following:


If you want to see what he wrote, just click the toggle link.

Why would we want to see that?

Oh yeah. Jalapeno flavored popcorn!

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.

Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

If your receiver comes with Audyssey, you can run the calibration and select the 'Audyssey' curve (default for most receivers IIRC) as it rolls off the upper range frequencies.

Icehawk-
Since you say that "I notice the sibilance on a wide variety of cable programming and also notice it when watching DVDs. I notice it less with music" I would agree with Alan that what you're likely hearing is compression artifacting from your cable provider.

Does your Outlaw allow for EQ on an input-by-input basis? Or, is it possible that your remote allows for easy changing of EQ? If so, it might be easy to just leave the EQ "on" for most of your viewing, but easily take the EQ out for music listening.

Finally, if you can EQ the speakers independently, you could always tweak the center only as it likely comes into play much more with TV viewing than music CDs.

It's an unfo

He did indeed post that and ah, he'll leave soon enough, once he applies some of his intelligence to his behavior, and then finds that some "truths" apply to him.

Until then, enjoy! ...or...ignore!

Swap out the cable box. I have found I need to replace the box (HD DVR) once every year or two. As mass-produced rental equipment I find they just fail constantly. Sound issues, check. HDMI failure, check. Component color flickering, check. Before you go nuts, just run by and get a new box. If it does not help, at least you got a newer toy and can move down the signal path.

SolidState,

I found your quote from Winston Churchill quite apropos. The question is; are you going to begin to accept the truth or are you going to hurry off? The comb filtering you are talking about is in fact a measurement artifact that at worst is not audible and at best is something two ears and a brain quite like. You could start to enlighten yourself by reading "Comb Filtering -- Popular Misconceptions" in our May '09 Axiom AudioFile newsletter:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/may2009.html#feature

If you find comb filtering to be a problem, why are you listening in stereo or multi-channel? You would need to listen to everything in mono to avoid this artifact. To put an even finer point on it; even if you could hear this artifact it would manifest itself in a cancellation of higher frequencies; less high frequency information would not equal more sibilance. Comb filtering measured with a microphone never adds information.

At Axiom we do not produce new models for the sake of having something new. We prefer to continuously improve the models we have, which produces much better results for our customers’ listening experiences. Besides the plethora of improvements we have made to our various models over the past decade we have also introduced the EP500, EP600, EP400, EP800, A1400, Audiobytes, the entire W series, the entire T series, and more. Just another truth for you to either accept or hurry off about.

To sum up: Comb filtering is a measurement artifact of stereo listening. It's always occurring, and our brain and ears ignore the combing effects that are easily measured by a microphone. A brain and two ears are not a microphone. Our research at Axiom and that of many world authorities show that comb filtering is not detrimental to accurate loudspeaker sound reproduction; at worst, it’s irrelevant, at best it actually adds a pleasurable element of spaciousness to stereo and surround sound.

Alan Lofft

Alan, let me applaud you for even acknowledging a fellow who has so been as rude and ignorant as this shmuck has been to you and your company. That really shows how much class you have.

Now if only Solid State could show an ounce of class and quite beating his 'comb-filtering/crossover cap/laws of diminishing returns' drum he likes so much we'd all be better off. I have a VP150... I've never experienced any problems with sibilance. If the design of the VP150 is so obviously bad then why would someone so 'informed' ever let his uncle buy one in the first place?

Bravo, Alan! Bravo!

Give that man a cheroot bag of Jalapeno popcorn!

If your AVR or whatever you’re using has a built in equalizer where you can manually set different bands you might try to EQ some of it out. Not sure how accurate this is but here’s a chart that might help:

http://www.har-bal.com/index.php?/frequency-chart.php

Obviously using EQ may have other undesirable effects but it might be worth a try.

Not trying to sound rude but sounds odd to me that you would only start hearing it recently, usually that‘s the sort of thing that jumps right out at you. Have you noticed if your hearing is changing? Have you changed anything in your setup or room including cable provider?

What’s really odd to me is that you hear it mostly with TV and movies and less with music where I find it all the time. I’ve heard sibilance with my M80s on many audio tracks but when I checked them against my Sennheiser headphones it was also present which means to me that my Axioms are faithfully reproducing what’s recorded. I know that doesn’t help much in getting rid of it though.

Cheers,
Dean

Alan,

Perhaps my choice of language in describing the artifacts inherent in the "sibilance" of the VP150 was mistaken. What words acceptable to you should I use to describe the inherent "artifacts" created when a center design has two tweeters spaced 21" on the H plane? Cancellation affects, diffusion, combing artifacts,CTC distortion, what words do I use?
The off axis performance is really bad but I found if I cover the center woofer with a CD cover it helps. Perhaps I should solder a resistor inline on the center woofer?
I also wish to admit my tone and references to lack of design progression isn't all that fair. The reason for my "bad attitude" is my initial treatment on the forum here, two replaced A-1400s, one replaced EP500 amp, 3 replaced woofers with half glued on off-center dustcovers and the kicker that REALLY got me mad was when I inspected my uncles's M80 cabinet construction. The photos I published here is of the M80 that I DON'T have a problem with. It's fine yet users here thought it wasn't right LOL. You guys wouldn't believe the glue job and bracing on the screwy unit! I didn't post due to discretion!
For an observation of the attitude prevalent on your forum just take a look at the fighting regarding speaker break-in and bicycle inner-tubes as of late. Perhaps then Axiom insiders you'll understand why I've "freaked out".
I'd also like to add that you have not answered any of the questions of the user who started the thread or in my post that you have a problem with my choice of adjectives in describing the VP150 properties. I am very well aware of combing as it pertains to a stereo sound field but thanks for the recap.
Also I am curious if graphs for the VP150 have been publish by Axiom. I have yet to find measurements if they even exist from Axiom. I have found readings taken by Dannie Ritchie though. He's a friend of Skiing Ninja so I guess his words are garbage around here to you guys. I'm sure none of you have a problem with me quoting Dannie as one of the users here recently sited him regarding his research on driver break-in.
VP150 Third Party Measurements


Solid-State

I had never used the ignore user feature in any forum until today.

For extra credit, if anyone's actually still not ignoring him, if he says anything particularly egregious (ad hominems, etc.) you can report the post to Axiom by pressing the "Notify" button.

I'll just quote a earlier post of mine and finally bugger off... well if Alan responds I'll post again.

"What the hell do you think they'll say about the VP150 obvious design flaws... It will be like talking to a politician regarding a social issue. It would be almost as much a waste of time as this forum is."

Solid-State

Jalapeno Popcorn. Classic.

To the OP:

With a big old dose of IMHO...

Axiom speakers can result in emphasized highs. But not because they are designed to do that, but because they were designed to have a very flat and even freq response. Remember, the point of Axiom speakers is neutrality. The good, the bad, and the ugly all get pushed through.

A lot of speakers aren't as neutral. Some emphasize the lows, or the midrange, or the highs. Others roll-off parts of the spectrum. Others are a combination. If that's what you're auditory tastes favor, then there's nothing wrong with saying that Axiom speakers aren't your cup of tea, and finding some other brand that adds a pleasing amount of coloration. Again, for you and your ears. That's why there are so many brands of speakers out there.

That said, Axiom speakers don't make material brighter than it already is. A poorly recorded show/CD/DVD will sound bad on an Axiom system. Lesser speakers may mask the poor quality of the recording, and actually result in something that sounds better to your ear. And that's the rub; is it better to listen happily in ignorance? Or better to have the nth-degree of sonic clarity with which to hear all of the details, both good and bad? There is no right or wrong answer, it's just about your desires in music.

Back to the point....
The cable company in my town does something to many of the channels' audio, and the result is some amount of sibilance. At least, it was that way in the past. Maybe it's different now in the HD era. It was fine on some shows, but noticeable on others. Really bad on the low-grade, locally-produced "come-on-down-to-big-Jim's-car-extravaganza' commercials. Horrible; with sound levels jacked up so high that the audio breaks apart into clacky, hissy, sibilance.

One of several reasons I dumped them and have been a happy Dish Network customer for several years now. I do not get any sibilance; from old mono SD material to DD5.1 HD feeds. Programming is spectacular. Except for those same locally produced, crappy-microphone, cranked-the-gain-to-11 commercials. I get similar amounts of sibilance that I had in the past. That's entirely the fault of that commercial's audio mixer or the local station that's broadcasting it. Does it sound bad? Perhaps. Do I care? Not in the least.

Now if you're having big-time sibilance problems on all of the programming, I would contact your cable company and see if you can get a different converter box. Or perhaps try experimenting with different connections - HDMI vs coax digital vs. RCA, etc. But it might not even be the box, it could be your cable company. Do you have a pair of headphones? Remove the Axiom's from the loop. Try plugging your headphones into the AVR and see if you hear the same sibilance.

Hey guys, just logged on for the first time today(was up in cottage country near Axiom). What'd I miss?

Did anyone save me some popcorn?

(please note: the unpopped kernels at the bottom don't count)

Just the usual.

....too many off colour jokes going thru head at moment.......must.....re....frain.....

+1

If anyone would like to see the freq'cy res graph of the VP150 , have a look if you're interested. I believe this may be the V"1" series chart as opposed to the newer V2 version of the VP150.

Have a look.....you know you want to....


Now....will you accept it?

Yeah, but if you put the mic inside of a metal tin in the kitchen cabinet, the frequency response is not nearly the same.... and that just ruins it for me.

+1

Testing... testing. Is this on?

LMFAO

SolidState,

If you are so angry with Axiom and think their products are so terrible in quality, build or sound, why not go buy another speaker brand??

It is a very simple solution.
Save yourself the effort of complaining, cut your 'losses', sell your units used and buy something you think is better.

Spouting holier than thou statements about how a company should fix their problems or telling them what their issues are without actually providing any useful technical information to back any claim or support in that regard is being an "armchair quarterback".
(i.e. useless on a real field of play)

You don't wonder why you have been treated with disdain, you know EXACTLY why you've been treated the way you have.
Forum posters like yourself go looking for it just to be antagonistic in some puerile way to satisfy one's ego.

Peter's advice to hit the ignore switch is well served.
Mine is now switched on.

Has anyone here seen 'Pandorum'? Me thinks Solid State is actually just Alan's alter-ego whom heckles him and argues with him because he's spent so much time at work perfecting everything he can that he's lost touch with reality and gone insane.

Step out of the Axiom Labratory Alan, you need some fresh air!

Great minds quote philosophy to ponder a potential truth. Simple minds quote philosophy when they run out of the truth.
Murph, (1969 - pending)