Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Is it worth upgrading to 7.1 from 5.1

Hi Guys, I know this has been talked about alot here, just too lazy to look up the old threads.

I my wife and I are making some consmetic changes to our dedicated HT room. I am currently running 5.1 with QS8's on the side walls. When we built the house we roughed in the wiring for the back speakers if in case I ever wanted to go to 7.1. I need to know if as per our new decorating plan (due the location of moldings and accoustical panels) is if 7.1 in our future.

In order for myself to move to 7.1, I would need two new speakers, I am betting QS8's but I am open to suggestions. I would also need a 2nd power amplifer. My Rotel pre/pro is 7.1 capable, so that is a bit of a relief. With the additional amplifer and speakers I am probaly looking at around $500 to $800 (depending on speakers and amp).

I have looked at just about all 100 DVD's that I own and they are all in 5.1.

So the question is, for those of you that are running 7.1, is it worth spending $500 plus to move to 7.1? Yes, I know this is a very subjective question, but I trust you guys. Is there really that much of a difference, even though the software is only recoreded in 5.1? Or, is that money better spent on a new something or other? And what is up with movie industry and not moving to 7.1. It has been around for many years, whay are they sticking with 5.1?



Thanks

pn

Worf -

How long is your room (screen side to back wall) and how far away from the back wall do you sit when watching/listening?

I have 7.1 with the QS8s. In a 20' room, sitting about 8' from the back wall, I have never really felt like the extra 2 channels do much for me. If you sit in the back row of my room, you hear them more distinctly, but from the primary listening position, the effect is very subtle.

If money is no object, I guess I'd say go for it as it will provide a slight improvement in your listening experience. However, given that you have to get a new amp as well as new speakers, I'm not sure I'd spend the money unless your room is quite long and you have multiple rows of seating.

My 2 cents...

Jason

All of my discs are 7.1 thanks to Dolby Prologic IIx. That extracts matrix encoded audio or ambiance (Movie or Music mode respectively) from stereo tracks and spreads things around in a very convincing manor, or steers the surround channels of 5.1 mixes to the rears.

In all the other threads I've said, and I'll say again. With the QS8s to the sides of the listening area pans sounded as if they were going over head instead of behind me. But adding the 6th and 7th channels behind me made the movement of audio seamless. Right now I have my old monopole surround speakers back there, and the effect is good, I can only image it'll get better once I have a second pair of QS8s.

While you don't have any DVDs with more than 5.1, about 25% of Blu-rays being released today are 7.1, and that's probably only going to increase over the life of the format.

I like my 7.1, and wouldn't trade it for $500. Even if you don't make the jump right away, don't make any changes which would rule it out. The format, while not pervasive, is becoming more common.

Sorry, I forgot the room dimensions.

17.5' x 24.5'

Seating is 14' back for the first row with the second elevated row another 6' back.

Current QS8's on the side walls are 16' back from the front wall (screen wall).

Roughed in location for the additional two speakers are on the back wall same height as the existing 3.5' from each outside wall.

Some pictures here:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/images/wof/Worf.jpg

Thanks

Paul

My room's only large enough to really justify 5.1 at just over 2000 cf, but your room is probably a good candidate for 7.1 at well over 3000 cf, Paul.

That's a beautiful room, Paul. Certainly worthy of 7.1. Or 7.2

I must say, I'm with Jason on this one. Because the QS8's are so good already, going from 5.1 to 7.1 (with 4 QS8's for me) did not blow my mind like I wanted it to.

Clearly, you have already demonstrated a "want" for 7.1, and I doubt that's going to go away. If you question is "do I want to eliminate the possibility of EVER going to 7.1 in this room?" I guess I'd counsel you to answer "no". Chris is right - 7.1 seems to be a well-entrenched standard now, and eventually you won't be able to contain yourself in spite of anyone's opinion about the subtlety of the difference.

Ya, 7.2. I like the idea!

You know, It really sounds great in there. The only thing is there are too many reflective surfaces and it's a bit of an echo chamber. However, that is going to be fixed in the cosmetic reno with the adaption of some accoustic panels. I've already done the R&D and I really like what I hear. Pictures will follow after it's done, ofcoarse!

I just can't imagine adding 2 more surounds, a 2nd sub or even a 2nd center channel will make it any better. However, those are "famous last words" I know.

Right now the budget doesn't allow for any extra goodies except the accoustic panels, some moldings and paint.

I guess I need to work around the 7.1 option for now. Maybe some well placed pictures will do the trick for the moment.

Thanks

paul

Hi Paul,

What did you end up going with for your acoustic panels ?

I am seriously considering ATS Acoustics panels.. they are very affordable.

Oh.. I had a 7.1 setup in the past, but when I moved my HT system from one side of the basement to the other, I did not reinstall the rears.. like others have said, I could not tell enough of a difference between 5.1 and 7.1.. so I just did not bother.. but I have the capability and space so it's an easy thing for me to go back if and when I need to.

Cheers,
Riker

Everything else aside, consider that most tv viewers are still adjusting en masse to having a digital only signal and procuring the 'new' larger format, digital (some high definition), wide screen tvs.
Most people i know do not own any sort of stereo let alone a 5.1 surround system and these are career professionals with well paying jobs, families, movie goers, etc.

The industry will be promoting 5.1 for some time i suspect. It is only a rare small percentage that would be in a 7.1 category anytime in the near future i predict.

That being said, with Bluray coming mainstream and solid state storage ramping up fast in decreasing cost per unit, i can only wonder if the concept of discs will be gone in 5 years replaced by movies on USB memory keys or something of the like.
Time to start chopping up those old dvd media carousels into firewood...

Because most people don't even have speakers outside their TV, much less a 5.1 setup, much less a decent 5.1 setup?

How many houses have you seen where there's 5 teeensy plastic speakers lined up on top of the entertainment center?

RIker

I have looked at the ATS and I think they are great. I however am very cheap and pretty handy. So I am planning to go the DIY route. I went to Home Depot and bought some 2'x4' drop ceiling accoustic tiles. They have a 3/4" fiberglass semi stiff backing and I use them yellow side out. You then take a piece of 1/4" plywood, some glue, and some fabric of my choice from Fabrick Land wrapped and stappled, and I have 2'x4' accoustic panels for about $20 / panel.

At this point I have just tacked up the ceiling tiles temp on the walls to get an idea of the sound difference and cosmetic locations. I bought 24 tiles but have only used 16 so far. I was planning to put a few on the ceiling but I am not sure I need to.

I was pleased with the improvment. Music notes become much more defined, or less mushy sounding. Bass seemed to be enhanced and more defined. It's like taking a blury picture and just adjusting a touch to get it into focus.

paul

Chesseroo

I agree with what you are saying.

I am no expert but aren't movies recorded in 6.1 or 7.1 when they play in local commercial movie theater? If the mix is already done for the theater, then why is it so hard to transfer it to DVD?


paul
paul

Paul, it appears that there's enough room from the seats to the wall behind for back surround speakers to develop a useful sound field. As Chris pointed out, even 2 and 5.1 channel source material can be expanded effectively to a 7.1 speaker setup by use of DPLIIx processing.

Thanks for the info Paul.. never thought about ceiling tiles that have insulation .. I know that Home Depot does not have Owens Corning 703 ridgid fiberglass boards.. they are very hard to find in Ottawa, in fact, I found only one place, but they would not sell me a dozen pieces or so.. I have to be a contractor and purchase in the 60 + range of pieces..

From what I calculated, I would need 6 ATS panels of 2X4' to cover 80% of my wall surface.. and that can be had for about $400 Canadian all in. So, I might just bite the bullet and save myself the headache and get them.. I to am pretty handy and I have already built floor to ceiling Bass Traps in 2 corners of my basement, but this time, I'm going to take the easy way out and just purchase them..

Cheers,
Stephane

That is exactly what I was looking for; OC 703. Then I remembered that in my last house I put in a drop ceiling in the basement and used thses tiles. I though then they migh make interesting accousic pannels.

I'll post pictures in the next coupleo of weeks when I get it all done.

pn

Any chance you could post some pics of the bass traps you built?

paul

I can for sure.. I will add them to my gallery pics tomorrow evening and let you know when I do..

Cheers

Riker: Like Worfzara, I had a heck of a time finding OC 703 to make acoustic panels. I looked at ATS, then decided to go the DIY route as well.

Luckily, I found a company willing to sell me 4 sheets of 4X10' duct board (1 1/2" thick). Made frames out of 1X4" pine boards, stretched black broadcloth over the frame, and filled it with two sheets of the duct board back to back. Please see pics:

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/bweasner/1.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/bweasner/2.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/bweasner/3.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/bweasner/4.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/bweasner/5.jpg

Each panel ended up costing $9 US and the full panels weigh about 14 pounds. I hung them from the wall using two picture hangers, then anchored each panel to the wall using 4 small L-shaped brackets painted black.

Trust me, if I can make these panels, anyone can. If you can't find any OC703 or duct board, order the insulation from ATS and just construct the panels yourself...they are super simple to make!

How about adding the two front height speakers? If I were to add more speakers, I would go that route. 'course, you'll need a new receiver capable of using the front/height/Z speakers.

Yes, movies in theaters have 7 channels, but they are not in the same arrangement as the home. Cinema's use: Left, Left-center, Center, Right-center, Right, Left Surround-array, Right Surround-array.

The down-mix for home goes like this: Left to left, center to center, right to right, left-center 50/50 to left and center, right-center 50/50 to right and center. Then the surround arrays are mapped to those channels. But often a custom mix is done for home distribution anyway. 7.1 discs have always been remixed. Some are to just perform the same steering that ProLogic IIx would do, but others have some discrete mixing work done. The Nightmare Before Christmas Blu-ray has a very effective 7.1 mix.

Hi Stephane,

I think I am probably misunderstanding you when you say cover 80% of your wall surface. If you mean covering your entire wall surface with acoustic panels, you can save some money as you definitely would not want to do that. You would only want a couple of bass traps, often in the corners and a few anti-reflective acoustical panels in just the primary reflection points in the room. Some folks might even say, that they are only required for overly reflective rooms but I'm no expert at that level. I myself built some into my basement HT room as 3/4 walls are pretty empty with concrete behind them.

Good music/theater sound actually relies on natural reflection points. if you cover the entire room, the sound will sound (and I don't have the correct terms here but essentially,) flat and deadened.

If you are talking about soundproofing inside the walls or some other matter, please excuse me cutting into the conversation.

Hi Murph,

Sorry I should have explained myself better. If I purchase 6 panels of 2'x4'x2" I will be installing them on 3 of my 4 walls, which are the left, front and right wall. I don't have room on the back wall at this time. Also, I have already built 2 Corner Bass "super chunks" using stacked triangles of Roxul mineral wool wich I then made a frame of pine and put black transparent frabric on top. I'll post pictures in the gallery tonight.

I plan on installing 3 of the 6 panels and evaluating the impact, then adding one more panel at a time up to 6 if I feel it's required, but I might stop at 3 or 4 etc.. I'm trying to remove slap echo and some reverb that occurs in certain parts of the room and messes with soudstage / clarity. The only reason I'll be getting 6 panels is because they only sell them in packs of 6. I will also be adding a new EP500 sub and run a dual sub system to even out the bass response. I hope that with the addition of the EP500 and the acoustic panels I will have a much better sound experience.

My mistake.
I look forward to seeing your photos.

if you could move your Q's back futher. My room is not quite as big but I had it set up as a 7.1 I took the back speakers off the back wall and moved the Q's futher back I think it sounds better as a 5.1 my room is 12x24x9