Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Wiring Questions for new home...

So my wife and I are looking at building a house... hopefully sometime this year.

We found a floor plan from a local builder that we are leaning towards. It is an open floor plan and the kitchen/living room are basically connected. We are not buying a house large enough for a separate theater room so the living room will be where all of my current axiom gear goes.

My plan is to have everything pre-wired for surround sound. Please see the image below:



My initial plan is to run 12 gauge speaker wire from the AVR rack to the FL,FR,C,SL,and SR (although I could only have wire ran for the surrounds and just run the wire for the front speakers along the floor). I am not sure where I will end up placing the sub though (just randomly drew it in on the above image)

I could take this opportunity to have sub cable ran to a couple of locations. I am thinking that if I went with a 5.2 setup I could place the 2 subs directly under the surround speakers. Would 1 sub on each side (but slightly behind) the listening area be ok? Is a special sub cable required for in wall installations?

As far as electrical wiring: Should I have all of the outlets on the wall with the AV equipment ran to the same 20amp fuse on their own circuit? If I have sub cable ran to the SL and SR locations should I have outlets here on the same 20 Amp circuit?

Any general thoughts about my planned layout are appreciated.

Thanks

Just a thought concerning the SL and SR speakers. From this layout, it would seem to me that directional M2's or M3's (angled toward the seating position) might be a better choice than the QS speakers, because it looks like the rear speaker in the QS would either be too close to a wall, or the sound would be lost into the kitchen. I'm assuming there is a wall behind the couch...

By an open floor plan, does this mean there is absolute no wall behind the couch?

I would not put the subs on the same circuit as the AV equipment. They can be on their own circuit, 15 amp is probably fine but overkill is never bad if you want to go 20. Same with the AV equipment. I run my projector dedicated on a 15, the equipment on another 15 (5 devices) and the sub (and later on a second) on another 15... No problems at all.

You won't really know where to put the subs until you can get in there and do a crawl. Chances are good though you'll want one up front, and one in back. Two in back may work if you play with the phasing a bit.

There is no wall behind the couch. The dashed line on the drawing shows the middle (peak) of the vaulted ceilings.

Here is a picture of the kitchen area looking from the living room.

This particular picture shows all tile, but I would have carpet all the way back to the kitchen area and extending toward the front door. Also, In my proposed setup the couch is further back and shifted over from the picture here.

Not bad. I like the open look. I think this could also help to enhance the sound overall. That is, as long as there weren't too many reflective surfaces.

They have a model home built of this floorplan in the neighborhood we are interested in (not the one in the picture above).

The model plan has carpet in the hallway and living room and only tile in the kitchen and nook. This reduces the reflective surfaces a lot, and also adds a feeling of separation between the living room and the kitchen. Between the carpet/tiule division and the kitchen island it seems like there is more of a separation between the two than their appears to be in the photo above (way too much tile in that photo for my tastes.)

Multiple sub locations is easy. I just did it in my remodel. Just have RG6 pulled to different locations. Then use a coax/RCA adapter and you should be fine.

Any special concerns with the cable (extra shielding/ect.) so you don't pick up interference from electrical wiring or something in the wall?

After seeing the pic, I agree you would be better off with a direct firing surround speaker if they are going to be that far away

RG6 is already shielded, so you should be fine.

Hmmm... I never really thought about that as a problem. I assumed you could just bump up the speaker level to compensate.

Does anyone around here use the QS speakers from a similar distance?

Why not consider some ceiling mounts for your Q's, David?

The ceilings are up pretty high.

I guess I didn't think that 9-11 feet away was excessive.. yeah it is a little far but didn't see that causing a problem with the QS8's.


Surely someone around here has tried them at that distance on the sides... ?

I would check the model house for sound / echo factor. We built our house in 04 and I had planned to have the main theater in the great room. It is 2 story and open to the kitchen. I wired it myself but never used it due to the poor acoustics. We did buy an area rug which helped some - I would say the carpet would be an improvement over our rug. Fortunately, I also wired the Bonus room for surround. That is now the mancave with excellent acoustics......Rob

How high? maybe check with Alan as to how high above ear level they'll be effective. I would think they'd have pretty good dispersion, and you could bring them closer to the seating area instead of being restricted to the walls. I know the general consensus is something like 3-6 ft above ear level, but I'll bet there are a few people who've mounted 7-8ft or more above ear level. Just a thought.

Good idea Argon. Maybe I should walk around the living room and clap a bit next time I am in the area.

Adrian:
See the pic above. IF I mounted them on the ceiling they would be further away than the 9-11 feet shown on my proposed layout.

Thanks again for all the good suggestions guys. Keep 'em coming

Potato:

Please keep in mind that the couch in my setup has the center seat almost aligned with the pantry on the back kitchen wall. When looking at the photo my couch would be scooted toward the wall by the hallway and back toward the kitchen.

If you flip between the photo and the floor plan you can get an idea where my couch will be in relation to the one shown on the photo if you use the back kitchen pantry door as a reference point.

With that in mind, do you still think it looks too far away for a QS8?

Argon:

did you have tile or wood floors causing the problem or was it the high ceilings and open room?

David, the proposed setup looks(and should sound)good. The mains are separated about as much as your distance from them, the surrounds would be just slightly behind your ears. The sound from the back mid-woofer of the QS wouldn't be "lost" in the kitchen, but would help create some back effect. 16ga should be fine for those wiring distances and may be easier to install and handle.

The location for a single sub in the left front corner is likely to be the best for a strong and smooth response. Dual subwoofers at the midpoint of the side walls should be even better, and although the exact midpoint can't be used, your proposed location below the QSs should be close enough to give a good result.

The general consensus is that if you are more than 4 or 5 feet away, you don't really need a Q. You could absolutely bump up the receiver volume on those channels to compensate, but that Q will be trying to fill A LOT of space between the wall, the high ceiling, and you. I know the Q's have a certain cool factor, but if you don't need them you're just spending extra money. Where I normally sit watching movies I have one Q about 24 inches from my right ear, and slightly behind. It is about 4 or 5 db below the Q on the other side, but when it's that close the Q makes sense (and it sounds good, too).

If it's possible you may have a loveseat or other seating in another area, you may want the Q's. If it's just you and the wife in the primetime spot, you can go either way.

I actually own all of the speakers already, so going with something besides a QS8 would cost extra money.

Out of curiosity I spoke with Brent at axiom to find out if at my proposed distance for side surrounds was too far for a QS8. He said that he has one QS 8 at about 12 feet away and has no problems (the receiver has bumped up the sound level a couple of dbs for this speaker ) .

If I notice any problems with the QS8's I can try an M2 or M3 later.

I will run coax to the potential sub locations under the surrounds. If I put a sub up front I'll just lay the sub cable along the ground.

I guess the only question I have left:

Should I make any special electrical wiring considerations for the Wall with the TV and the outlets for the 2 potential sub locations? Someone advised against having all of this on one circuit... How should It be done (or should I just let the builder wire it however they typically do?)

Thanks again for all of the input everyone! At this point all of this is hypothetical (or at least several months down the road) but I wanted to get everything in regards to wiring straight in my head.

David,
We have Hardwood floors with a fairly large area rug. Our room is a true two story room - no vaulted ceiling. Echos are horrible in there. Your vaulted ceiling may diffuse the sound better - plus it does not appear to be true 2 story. Clapping sounds like a good idea...........Rob

you could go with a couple circuits directly behind the tv. and another in each corner where the subs may go. Also you could run a split recepticle to each corner this way the top recpticle would be on it's own circiut split from the bottom. also run the split to the back for the other sub. Most likely though with a sub around the couch area it will have to be a floor circuit. Too bad there wasn't a halfwall behind the couch about 4ft high and 8 ft long. You could put your couch up against and put in a few recpticles. Atleast it would keep the couch from sliding back ;))

ps Usually good to keep video gear on a circuit different from audio gear and subs on another.

It would be nice if someone could post the peak amperage usage of certain audio equipment at high volume as a comparison guide to know what amperage cicruits would be needed.

Such as AVR and the different subs.

There is a meter that you can attach to a wire at the circuit breaker box that will tell how many amps are going through the wire. I plan on getting one of these sometime, but maybe someone reading this already has one and some Axiom subs.

Even easier is the Kill-A-Watt, just plug something into it, and it'll tell you the device's current draw, and usage over time. They even make a power strip version.

Though if you want to know the draw of an AVR before you have it in your possession that's usually listed in the back of the manual (which you can find in PDF form from most maker's sites).

Chris, is that a peak number or does it vary according to how hard your pushing the amp?

Ok. I checked both of these out and it looks like the power strip gives amperage readout, but the other unit does not. The power strip is about $75 from Amazon.com. This is probably comparable in price to what I mentioned and a whole lot easier to use.

Only the manual will tell you peak. The meter does have a peak hold, to let you know the highest draw it's seen. But if you never push your system hard it'll never show a very high number.

There's also the orignal model. It looks like the EZ, but it does show amp draw. That's actually the one I have, but linked to the EZ by mistake (I don't like the EZ, yet it costs more).

Thanks. I presume that different classes of amps have different draws too?

Yep. Class A draw about double their output. AB draw about 50% more than their output. Class D will draw about 10% more than their output.

i have 2 krell amps 250w per channel @ 8ohm, total of 5 channels. and my ep600 as well as the tv and dvd player, and cable box. i have m60's, QS8's and a vp150. my room is about 20X15X10 and opens into the kitchen as well... all on 1 15amp breaker.I have never poped the breaker, what kind of amps are you using? How loud do you play your music/movies? when we are watching a movie you can hear the ep600 pretty well outside the house, depending on the movie. depending on the price, you could put your amp on a dedicated breaker.

I didn't see you listing what kind of amps, or receiver you have. if you have a receiver, and do not plan on upgrading to pre/pro i would not worry about dedicated breakers.


one thing i would tell you, if your getting a new house built, ask for the wiring per schematic, and make the builder give you the schematic. i was talking to an electrician, when i had some work done a few months back and as we were talking, he said that the new builders were running 12 gage to about 6" away from outlets, then finishing the run with 14 gauge.... make sure you get what you are paying for, and hold the builder accountable, and make them prove it to you.


if your worried about picking up noise on the speaker wire, i would not worry about it. if you run 12 gauge you'll be fine,

putting everything on different breakers will not make your system sound better. you just need to do the math like others have stated to make sure that your components are not going to draw more power than the breaker your thinking about putting in.

if you want to spend the money for isolation transformers and capacitors ect, to ensure the power to your stereo is better than what your pulling off of the grid, sure you can do that, but i think that will get into way more money than most of us are willing to send.



Good luck with your decision.

Regarding noise on sub wires. It can easily be a problem if the coax is run in contact with AC wire for any length more than a couple feet. Make sure the sub wiring is not run right along with the electric. A few feet above or below is enough, just not through the same holes in the studs.

depending on your builder you may be able to run your own ht wiring, that way you know its done right.

I'm sorry to ask an OT question and maybe a stupid one, but what would be the point? They wouldn't save much on 12 gauge, and by time they tie the 14 gauge into the 14 gauge, it's taking them extra time.

I'm not doubting you, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me unless there's something I'm missing...

Already Checked on this an the answer was no

mark, i don't know, but i don't doubt it from what i have herd about the quality of new houses these days..

trez, the only thing i could say to you, is do your homework about the builder your going with, and inspect the construction very often. if I was going to have a new house built, I would make the time to go over and inspect it on a daily basis. I would also put in the contract, to have outside inspectors of my choosing inspect the house as it is being built, at specific points during the construction one defiantly being before drywall goes up. I would also have specific contractors, electrical, pluming, and general. Also make them show you the density test of the foundation. i think they are required to be 12 something. don't know saw an episode on holmes on homes about that.


I have a cousin her and her husband had their house built, by one of the "better" builders in the country, long story short all of their closet organization shelves ect, were only anchored into drywall, one of the nails were anchored into any studs.


i don't want to scare you, and im sure you have already done a good amount of homework on your own, i do wish you best of luck with your new purchase.


one other idea for your QS8's would be suspend them by poles like the lights in your photo, run the wire inside of the pole, paint them black.

If you have a wife, she would probably take a decent amount of working on to get her to go for that idea..... maybe another project for you