Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Now I need video!

Hey all! I've been lurking on the boards for a few months, and finally have need to post. Knowing full well the friendly nature of these boards, as well as your excellent taste in audio, I imagine some of you are equally well versed on the video side of HT. I'm looking to upgrade within the next year, so I'd like your input.

A little bit about the current setup: My room is approximately 12' wide x 20' long x 10' high (typical rowhouse living room dimensions), with the 12' dimension parallel to the primary viewing axis. My viewing distance is 10 feet from couch to screen. Right now, I'm using my roommate's 25" television.

Soundwise I have M60 mains and VP150 center with Infinity Studio Monitors for surrounds and a 12" Titanic sub from Parts Express. I'm nothing less than impressed after 4 months, but that's a whole other thread. Quite frankly, the sound steals the show when watching movies (at least at *proper* volumes), hence the impetus to upgrade the video.

I'd like to go with a 46" widescreen RPT, or something similar. At the same time, I'm relatively young, so I don't have $5000 to plunk down on a set, and I rent, so some degree of movability is key. I'd like to spend no more than $2000.

I'm sure you all have recommendations for manufacturers and products, so let's hear it! Give me your thoughts on all things video!

if moveability is an issue i would look at plasmas. There is the whole debate between plasmas and RPT and black levels and pixels, but i am not too familiar with that. Plasma prices have dropped and will continue to drop for another year or too. I think you can get a plasma 42" for around 3000 right now(the good models), and probably sometime soon you can get one for around 2000(mid models).

if you dont find enough information here, go over to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=40

it is somewhat confusing but there is a lot of info on those boards. Anyways, tell me what you find. I am in the market for a plasma myself(but with a slightly higher budget and time frame-about 1 year before i will buy mine)

Hawkson,

I don't think that's very good advice. A plasma screen is definitely NOT the thing to buy right now. Any plasma screen worth spending money on (this is entirely subjectivce, I know) is definitely more expensive than the original poster's budget allows.

[engaging sushi mode]
If you can control the ambient light levels in the room pretty well, I would consider a front projector. They are extremely easy to move and are much cheaper than existing large screen flat-panel technology.

You may want to look into the InFocus X1 DLP front projector, it is well below your budget and projects an excellent 800 x 600 image. It is not fully HD resolution, but it is better than DVD resolution. It also can produce HD images, just not at full HD resolution. It also only wieghs a few pounds since it is a DLP projector.

In reply to:

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It also can produce HD images, just not at full HD resolution.

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Huh?

A FP would definately be easy to move, but with the projector and screen, $2000 is pushing the budget isn't it? (I don't honestly know)

If you can wait a bit longer, LCoS is getting a big push from Intel. That should mean better quality/lower prices.

I too have been researching TV's. Like you, my audio truly over powers my image. There's so much happening with TV technology now, I'm going to give it another year at least to see what happens.

hi DannyC
welcome! I'm a bit of a CRT proponent when it comes to TVs. Maybe a 36" from Toshiba or Sony is worth looking at. Sony even makes a 40" that'll come in under your $2000 budget with a little haggling (I'm assuming that's USD) here:

Sony 40XBR800

Though they're maybe not the most easily transportable option, CRTs still offer the best picture performance for the money. I'm still very happy that I spent the money 2 years ago for my tube. There seems to be even more options/confusion in the market about which display is going to be the tech of the future. Until that settles out, maybe it's not a bad idea to look into a CRT. Just one man's opinion.

Good luck!

I would suggest you consider a good rear projection. I was looking to upgrade my video about a year and a half ago and refused to consider the rear projection because of the problems with viewing angle and lighting conditions. When I walked into Best Buy and saw the new projection tv's I had to rethink my choices. I ended up backing off from a purchase until I could spend a month or so in research.

Then a friend bought the mitz 55 inch widescreen, the very one I was looking into. Now I could see it in a home, not a dark store. I was amazed. Not only that, but he had his TV in this little room where he sits about four feet away and the resolution was still amazing with regular TV. DVD pro scan was even better.

A week later I had the same TV in my house. My room is similar to yours, @12x25x10. I have three large windows on my left, slider door behind my sitting area, and a kitchen on the right with more windows. For about an hour during sunset lighting is slightly a bother but managable with my blinds. As for viewing angle, I have no trouble viewing my screen while cooking in the kitchen, a very large off set from my screen.

I have been more than happy with my purchase, in fact if I can get my wife talked into it, I want to upgrade to a 65 inch with the new DVI input.

The 55 inch wide screen I bought a year and a half ago cost me $2100 after some smooth talking on my part. You can buy the same TV for $1900 without any wheeling and dealing.

Three friends of mine just purchased rear projections in the size your talking about (46 in) and I think they paid about $1400.

Hope this helps

I am also in the wait awhile later camp. The Consumer Electronics show opens in Las Vegas in two days and there should be significant news on this front with major technology improvments this year and next.

I also agree that CRT sets still offer the best picture. They are however very heavy and bulky 34"s and up.

A front projector and screen should fit your budget if you get one of the recommended lower priced units. As I believe Snippy said, the infocus X1 comes well recomended, will take an HDTV signal but will not display it at full HDTV resolution. The other unit around $1500 plus screen is the Panasonic ?300? (can't recall the exact model). If you're interested in a front projector go the the projectorcentral.com website and do some research.

LCoS projection is just coming to market and appears to hold great promise for good afforadable sets but its probably going to be a year before they are a really smart buy.

The best picture I have seen yet on a projection set I would want to own is the Samsung DLP HLN467. It is a 46' set around $3800. At $1200 I would go for it. The 43" HLN437 set is about $500 less and about the same size physically. I think these are early adopter prices that will drop by half or more on improved models in the coming year.

OH, and regarding movablity, rear projections are pretty big, but remarkably light. My 55 in is like 200 lbs. I think a 36 in crt is more than that. If I were moving once a year, I still wouldnt settle for a smaller tv, thats just me though, Ive got plenty of big friends that work for beer.

You're right Kittel, my 36" Toshiba is 213lbs. according to the manual (not including the stand)!

The trouble with your question is the "within the next year" qualifier. I am buying on a budget today; a year from now the whole market will be different.

My own research has led me to the InFocus X1, as well, for purchase today. There is a lot to be said for the wait-and-see case right now, because prices are still dropping across the board and the Intel LCoS announcement is going to put downward price pressure on the whole marketplace a year from now.

My own rationalization for the X1 front projector is that it is an entry-level expenditure ($1,000) that still won't be wasted, because I can also use it for its other purpose, which is as a data projector. We have one at our office.

I've been watching the TV market myself I've noticed the dramatic price drops in plasma sets, which is good, but if you look, they're still significantly higher than any other technology, because all the other technologies have been dropping in price as well!

I guess it's a good thing for us consumers, but TV's, or A/V in general seems to be rapidly becoming just like the computer industry. Yeah, you can "wait and see", but will the price drops and technology advances ever end? When is the right time? Prices continue to drop, and newer, better technologies continue to be released.

Perhaps you should do what I do when buying a computer. Buy the best you can afford right now, and immediately stop looking/reading about them. If you do, you'll just wish you'd waited that little bit longer. There's always going to be something better, something cheaper.

(Yes, I'm fully aware that this post completely contradicts my previous post suggesting to wait and see.)

In reply to:

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When I walked into Best Buy and saw the new projection tv's I had to rethink my choices. I ended up backing off from a purchase until I could spend a month or so in research.

Then a friend bought the mitz 55 inch widescreen, the very one I was looking into. Now I could see it in a home, not a dark store. I was amazed. Not only that, but he had his TV in this little room where he sits about four feet away and the resolution was still amazing with regular TV. DVD pro scan was even better.

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I can't agree with this advice..my brother in law has a RPTV and it looks awful. Part of it is his room layout and where he ended up putting it, but it sounds like the same model as yours and it's not that great unless it's you're in the sweet spot...just like at the store. I won't even get into lower quality models.

It's an option, but I would agree you'd be just as well or better with an inexpensive projector.

Just my two cents..and as with most things in life..everyones mileage may vary.

-Nick

As you can see from all the replies, there are a million options out there. I bought a Toshiba 50" widescreen rear projection (50H82 Theaterwide HD) about a year ago from Best Buy. (priced matched $1800. and a free DVD player) RPTV has definately come along way. I don't have a very bright room with full curtains over my windows, so this may play a big part in, but I have no complaints with this TV. I am still amazed at the picture, especially HD and DVDs. Approx. same size room and seating position as you. I believe the 50" is a 51" in this years model. All the ratings I read on it when I bought placed it in the top couple RPTVs at that time. Honostly, if I were in the market in the same price range, I would look at this TV again.

Like Spiff said, the wait and see game could last forever. There is ALWAYS something bigger and better coming.

Thanks everyone for all the advice so far. I realized that I forgot to specify some important information. The $2000 budget is an arbitrary figure, and is in U.S. dollars. I really don't feel comfortable shelling out more than that at this time, as I have an education to pay off.

The main purpose of the new video display is mostly for movies. My roommate is the couch potato who likes to watch television (at very unreasonable levels of 50 dB or even less!). I have fallen head over heels for DVD movies, so I'd really like a huge widescreen image to really get into the flick. Screw the roommate.

I just returned from Best Buy (again), so I'll give a brief summary of my thoughts at this point. Plasma--too expensive, and not as good picture as other technologies currently available. LCD--better than plasma, but still too expensive. DLP--best imaging I've seen. Very sharp and sets are lightweight, but a little steep still. I do believe the Samsungs mentioned above use DLP technology. I simply can't justify to myself spending three grand on a television. Perhaps five or ten years from now, but not at this juncture. CRT--the widescreen sets just seem to be too small, not to mention the heft and lack of selection.

This brings me to the RPTVs. Most of what I've seen is incredibly enormous (I still need to have room for my speakers somewhere!) has poor picture quality, or both. I sort of liked the 46" Toshiba model and the 46" Sony, but they each have their drawbacks as well.

I think I owe it to myself to look into front projectors. My big hesitancy with the projectors is that I'm afraid if the image is too big, I'll be craning my neck and turning my head all over the place while trying to watch a movie. I will consider all suggestions as open-mindedly and objectively as possible, but it all really comes down to the amount of bang I can get for the buck.

Thanks for your help, and if you have any more ideas, please keep 'em coming! This stuff is addictive!

Here is a link to a good deal on the X1:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A0146241&c=us&l=en&cs=19&category_id=5188&page=external

For only $900, you get almost HD quality and you can make the screen as big as you want.

Here is a link to an X1 in action from someone in another forum:

http://www.mike-lee.org/hometheater/hometheaterpagemain.htm

Might I suggest that if and when you decide to buy a TV...
wether it be a RPTV, big CRT, lcd plasma etc. to save a part of your budget to get it calibrated by an ISF tech
it will help get the most out of your purchase calibrations can go up to in price to about maybe $4-500 but IMO worth it

huh!
i just posted a thread at AVS about the differences between the two and i was heartily reccomended to look into plasmas over RPTs. Then again i did post it in a plasma thread This was about a week ago so i am fairly new to the area myself and obviously i the responses i got were biased.

Yeah, I'm not knocking anyone (we all have our favorites), but at AVS you'll typically find extreme fans of whichever technology depending on the forum you're in. That's just human nature, and again I'm not criticizing as we can all be that way. Just something to remember.

On the plasma front I had a friend by the Panasonic commercial grade 42inch plasma that's quite popular. It's not HD, but EDTV grade and it was a beautiful picture. And he hadn't calibrated anything.

However, I only saw a movie and a couple of games on it so it's hard to fully evaluate.

As I mentioned and others have, you might be surprised what you could do price wise with a projector. On the other hand you might be disappointed. I haven't seen the X1 to be able to comment on it.

Best of luck!

-Nick

I run a X1 myself and partnered with a Da-Lite Hipower it would cost you less than $1500 USD.

http://www.spacelofts.com/x1/

Saturn

Saturn,

Those TV pics look great! Is that attributable to the NextVision N5?

Hi dannyc,

Welcome to the message boards. A couple of things first: If you are willing to make the compromises of getting a totally dark room to appreciate a front projector image from, say, the InFocus X1, you can adjust the zoom lens to vary the picture size so you won't be craning your neck. Besides, no matter what technology you choose, your viewing distance from the screen should be three times the diagonal screen measurement or greater. For a 46-inch set, that's about 11 or 12 feet--otherwise you'll start to see annoying video artifacts except with really pristine hi-def images.

You can read more about pros and cons of various TV technologies in an Axiom AudioFile newsetter of mine (axiomaudio.com/archives), the April 2003 issue. In any case, given your budget, you can get true hi-def in a rear-pro CRT set for about $1,500, if you can fit it into your place. The best-looking pictures I've seen in that screen-size range are from Hitachi, Sony, and Panasonic. Any of these CRT sets will benefit from careful calibration and alignment, which will cost extra. And you won't have to replace expensive projection bulbs every few thousand hours as you must with DLP and LCD rear or front-projectors.

Another fundamental truth: nothing will ever look as clear and sharp as a direct-view CRT set, properly set up. Don't look at one next to a rear-projection set, or you'll start seeing all the flaws in rear-pro images. That said, the Samsung DLP 43, 46-inch rear-pro and Hitachi 50-inch LCD rear-pro now yield wonderfull looking hi-def pictures, but these are fairly costly $3,000-plus sets.

Two years ago I wouldn't have considered a rear-projection set of any design because the picture compromises were too great. Now, they are greatly improved. Unless you have an unlimited budget, Plasma screens are for uncritical eyes. The blacks are lousy, but that may be outweighed by the thin-panel gee-whiz factor, which is persuasive for lots of consumers.

LCoS has a ways to go, but I'll be at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas later this week, and there may be some impressive new sets there at lower prices.

Regards,

Alan thanks for your input, it's always very appreciated. Please give us a full report on your findings at CES! (Audio and video!)

Boomer;

Yes the NextVison N5 rescales my crappy Rogers cable to a watcheable picture.

Alan: As with the new generation Projectors...Infocus X1 or Panny 300 or 500 you can be within 7.5-10 feet and not see any pixalation with a 80 inch picture. You will see some pixalation at about 4.5 feet and thats barely. They are that good today...specially with DLP projectors.
That said you are correct that they last only for some time but since the X1 has about 4000 hours ... thats a pretty long time if I may only watch 3-4 movies a week..and thats on the high side. I barely watch TV on my projector. Thats why I have a separate 19 inch LCD monitor for daily news and stuff. The projector can do TV duty but thats only speacial occassions like a game or a speacial show.

I've read reviews for the X1 and checked out a couple other forums on this product, as well as Alan's article, and I'm nearly convinced this is the route I want to go. The bang for the buck just seems to be too good to pass up (much like Axiom speakers!). I still have one major concern, though.

I don't have a dedicated HT room in my house, so the projector would be used in the living room. Normally, I keep the curtains closed, but during daylight hours, some light is going to enter the house. (My living room window faces to the South.) Is the X1 capable of overcoming a bit of daylight, or is everything going to be completely washed out? Saturn, you may be the most qualified to answer, since you actually own this particular projector.

If I do get a projector, I intend to use it for movies only, which I watch mostly at night, but I'd still like the option of watching DVDs during the day. Additionally, are there any recommended screen options that will improve the picture in such a lighting situation?

I thought I sent you private message about this issue. Do a refresh on your browser. Nonetheless I have found that unless your curtains can block out the sunlight IT WILL be washed out. I have this same issue so I put BLACK-OUT fabric behind the curtains. It is a cheap alternative and works rather well. You can find it at your local fabric store. I went even further and took out our old curtains and just use the BLACK-OUT fabric as the curtains as they are rather nice and modern looking. They also work well with blocking out drafts from the cold winter and they work well and block noise from outside the windows. Damn new condo is coming up beside me. Lots of construction noises. I should not complain myself since my new place is also coming up and the building beside would have the same issue.

As with helping out with ambient light rooms....the Da-Lite Hipower is recommended. But be wary this will also highlight a little more of the rainbows that people talk about in DLP projectors.
Saturn

If you go the projector route, just make a mental note of one item (which Alan mentioned in the course of his extremely good advice):

Projector bulbs.

These suckers are expensive. Our AV dept here at the university where I work has to buy dozens of them a year for academic presentations. The cost can be breathtaking, and cheaper knock-offs from China don't last nearly as long as they are supposed to. If you can afford projection, great, but do you really want to be breathing down your couch-potato roommate's neck about when he can and can't watch a movie on your system? You could alternately charge viewing fees.

Now, I've never had the budget to contemplate a DLP, so take my opinion with that grain of salt, but personally I still think an outstanding and large CRT (screen and lighting budget being a consideration) is the way to go at this time, and Alan mentioned some great manufacturers. Toshiba's CRTs always please me as well -- and even one of their less expensive 32- or 36-inch sets would be a good purchase now -- get you a great picture today with the chance to wait out the tumult over future standards without becoming an overpaying early adopter. (Note that this early-adoption concern has persisted for the last five years ... we are still in the midst of some volatile screen-format wars. Are you ready to vote with your wallet?) As an aside, I've noticed Toshiba's sometimes look pinkish in tint alongside Sony's and Panasonics in the storeroom, based on their default settings, but that can be adjusted of course.

Your sitting distance is also very critical in this decision. We sit 8-10' back from a 32-inch Toshiba CRT and it's great. After we bought this set for $560, my dad splurged about 2 grand on a Phillips flat wide-screen TV, HDTV ready I think, but he placed it in a little viewing room. It's ridiculous. At 4-6', where he sits, the thing looks worse than my sub-$600 Toshiba no matter what the source. Now, at 10' back or so, it looks great. But that distance is a critical part of the decision. Personally I would not spend the money on the Philips no matter what the viewing distance, unless I was sure NO ONE would have to sit too close to it, that's how lame it looked at closer viewing distances. This is not a knock on Philips, just on the practicality of larger screens in everyday watching environments.

Sometimes saving money and procrastinating (here, on choosing a lane for future screen formats) are the best answers.

Birdman

Costco has a 55" Akai RP widescreen for $1599, I believe. Picture looked great with the HD signal they were piping in. Sound was also very good from the onboard speakers. The cabinet wasn't the most beautiful I've seen, but at $1600 that is alot of bang for the buck. Whatever you do don't break the bank this time around - whatever you buy will be totally obsolete in a few years, regardless of the price tag that it carries today.
I love my Phillips 60" HD (also available at Costco for $1499), especially for sports.

Speaking of hd sports...Do you think CBS does a better job than ABC in this regard?

Sadly, I haven't upgraded to the HD cable box. I forget what it costs, but I haven't done it.

Have you checked with your cable company? Time Warner, my carrier, supplies the HD box if you have a HD ready TV. No extra charge.

No extra charge? Our TW box is $7.95. I'm sure the no charge days are almost done. I'm not complaining though, the picture is stunning.

When I state no extra charge, I mean nothing extra for the HD box vs the standard cable box.