Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Over Research Mode

Do you ever drop into Langford Canoe down the road from Axiom, when you're up, Alan? my brother and I were checking out some of their carbon canoes, georgeous and super light. I would think they make kayaks too though I was looking at canoes.

There is a company "Astral Buoancy" that makes a "Nova" model. Could that be it? The outfitter had a large array of vests and I did gravitate towards the Astral brand.

Hi Adrian,

Langford Canoe is where I bought my kayak. Very helpful staff. Good selection as well.

Cheers,
Alan

My wife is very happy with her Kokatat PFD. They have a large variety.

And his wife used to teach kayaking.

Murph must be traveling. He's a sea kayaker and will likely weigh in soon.

Not traveling. Just experiencing a huge wave of work so I have been canceling all the less important conference calls that normally allow me to multi-task to this board. Now, if I could just convince people to keep them canceled.

Sorry I'm late to the show Argon but here is a few quick thoughts. It's actually a bit long since I copied a bunch of it from an old email to another friend interested in buying a kayak.

You are already doing the very best thing you can do. Trying a bunch of boats before you buy. While recreational kayaks are a bit more 'generic', the shape and seating styles can suit one person and suck for another. I also think you are smart going for the sit in rather than sit on. The sit on tops are often slower and a bit more work to paddle as they compensate for the higher center of gravity with a wider, flatter bottom. Sometimes a wind can sneak up on you, even on a calm lake. Even if you don't have waves splashing into your cockpit, just being able to keep a bit of spray, rain or even a drippy paddle of your legs can sometimes mean the diiference between finishing your paddle in comfort, verses getting cold and miserable.Also, you will come to love having at least one waterproof hatch for a bit of gear or even just snacks.

I'm more familiar with sea kayaks vs. recreational styles but both Wilderness Systems and Perception make some nice boats. I'm not familiar with the middle company. A quick glance at all three you mentioned show they are about the same size (L&W) and weight so it will be the hull shape and seating that you will find makes the difference in how it performs for you. At 12' none of the boats are going to be fast and will not be as effortless to paddle as a longer style. You will easily outrace those big, fat, open faced barges that you see in hardware and fishing stores and such though. Also, you may find that a skeg is a handy option as it will not track as nicely as a long boat either. However, again, this isn't as much of a concern for what you plan to do with it.

Rec. boats can sometimes be a bit cookie cutter, but there are some new designs that are finally starting to combine the versatility of a sea kayak with the stability and much lower price of a rec. kayak. Again, they key is to try them out. Look for build quality. Will the seat or thigh braces last or do they look like an afterthought? If there is a rudder or a retractable skeg, does the mechanism seem well designed? Most importantly, does it fit your body size and suit what you plan on doing with it. You may find one boat a bit faster but feels a bit tippy at first. Another might turn better than another and yet another might just not feel right at all or even puts your legs to sleep over time.

On the 'tippy' thing. You will find that this isn't much of a concern in a kayak as your center of gravity is so low, you really are very stable. However, it is good to understand that there are two types of stability in a kayak. Primary and Secondary.

If a boat has strong primary stability, it means that it feels very stable when sitting flat on the water. Often because it has a flatter bottom. Secondary stability is when you can lean the boat steeply on it's edges and still feel like it's not going to tip. This is normally the result of a rounder bottom and/or a harder chine (the shape of the hull where the side meets the underwater part)

A lot of primary stability is great for beginners or people who plan to stick to flat waters. The boat will not feel loose under your hips so it inspires confidence. Nice for flat water fishing too as you will feel safer casting your arms around and such. The trade off is that in bigger waves, it will actually be less stable because the flat bottom will want to follow the angle of the wave when it hits you side on. A rounder shape will not try to match the wave shape as much. It is normally not as maneuverable as a more rounded bottom boat because it is hard to 'edge.' In fact, since it is flat bottomed, it will have a much sooner point of no return when leaning it to extremes before it capsizes. Of course, this is not a point of concern for your average flat water paddler unless you want to start learning more advanced edging techniques.

[Note:Edging is when you purposefully lean the kayak onto it's side, most often done so that you can execute much sharper turns.]

A boat with tons of secondary stability will feel jiggly to the hips when on flat water and thus is rather unsettling to beginners. Even though it is technically harder to tip than one with a flat bottom, the nervousness it can create often causes a new paddler to overcompensate, even give in to your natural reactions and reach out with their hands and thus extend the center of gravity too far and tip over. Water just doesn't make for good leaning posts.

However, as long as you keep your center of gravity within reason, you can actually sit the thing on it's side at much steeper angles. In fact, it will resist tipping once you reach a certain point. While it takes a while to get used to the loose hip feeling, once you relax the hips you benefit from being able to edge your boat better for tighter turns and you also gain much more confidence in rough seas.

In short, too much of either is generally a bad thing. You want to find a balance that is right for you. Most recreational kayaks tend to lean towards the primary stability side. This is not a bad thing for what they are intended for. So don't let all this confuse you.

I only get into it because it's good to understand why boats might behave and feel differently when finding the right one for you. Also, if you come to enjoy paddling, a natural progression of skills might get you craving a bit more advanced boat to play around in rougher water or maybe just to carry more gear to that Island picnic your heading out on.

Safety:
Finally, even though you will be on flat water, wear your life jacket. No buts or exceptions here! Also, take a course on how to re-enter your kayak using a paddle float or with another kayaker assisting you. Don't assume you will be able to do this someday if you need to. There is a bit of an art form to it. With the right technique, it's very very easy but even experienced paddlers practice these techniques to stay sharp. If you ever do fall in, it's embarrassing to have to swim or have to get dragged to shore to get back in. If the water is cold, a quick re-entry is crucial. If nothing else, if you are more confident that you can get back in your boat assisted or even unassisted, you will have a lot more fun with it.

Since you are going with a sit-in style, spend the extra 50-100 to get a spray skirt. Just a cool, breathable nylon one is all you need for flat water paddling. As mentioned, it's just nice sometimes to keep warm if the weather shifts. You don't need a fully neoprene one unless you plan to learn to roll the kayak or play in big waves. They will keep 100% of the water out but can be hot on warm days.

Also, since it is sit in, you can learn to roll your boat. This is of course the holy grail of kayaking. It's by no means a necessity for rec. kayaking but again, if you have a confident roll, you will have even more fun because you are confident you can get yourself out of the water fast should you actually need to. Also great for cooling yourself off on a hot day and of course, it just looks cool. However, it does need to be 'learned,' even practiced every year to keep bomb proof. Don't do like I did and try to teach yourself. I assumed too many bad habits and my technique is shameful. Some people are a natural at it but most struggle to learn how to do it easily. Again, it's not certainly not essential if you stick close to shore and warm waters, but if you have the ambition to learn, it adds a whole new level of fun.

Some other gear you should never go to far from shore without. Not necessary (but still good) on small lakes or rivers where you are never far from the shore.
-- A good marine whistle is a MUST. Fox40s are kind of the defacto standard around here. You would be surprised at how little wind or waves it takes before your partner can't hear you at just a bit of a distance.
-- A paddle float is the best way to get back in your boat unassisted if you don't have a good roll.
-- Once your back in the boat, a hand pump is best but some kind of baler is then required. Even one of those big peanut sponges can do wonders in a jam. I always carry one behind my seat just in case my pump gets lost. Plus they clean sand and stuff stuff too...
-- A tow rope in a toss bag is a good investment but again, maybe a bit of overkill if you are always close to a shoreline. I also keep one of these behind my seat. I have used it maybe twice in thirteen years. Once when I came across a very somber gentleman drifting in the ocean who lost his paddle and another time when the wind came up enough that my wife was just getting too tired to make any decent progress home.

My only advice on life jackets is make sure they are comfortable or you won't enjoy yourself as much. A jacket designed for kayaking will have extra large openings for the arms to account for the range of arm motion you will use. Also, you want it short enough so that it's not between you and the combing of the boat. In other words, it should lend itself to a natural seating position.

A pocket or two is a nice addition for for that whistle an energy bar or two. Don't go crazy with pockets though. Weight and a life jacket is kind of a conundrum.


Above all, relax and enjoy!!! I don't know anyone who hasn't tried kayaking once and not loved it. It's so easy for beginners plus it provides so many options for every type of personality to relax and enjoy nature, exercise your cardio and core, play in some mild waves or even get out there and push yourself to your limits in more extreme conditions.

See? I knew that he would be helpful!

Mark, you weren't kidding!

Thanks for the post, Andrew. I think I'm gonna print it up and hang onto it. I was looking at sea kayaks a couple years ago. . .and then I moved to Arizona. I'm not giving up hope though!

Rolling is a riot once you get it down.