Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater VP180 First Impressions

OK, it's late so I won't go into great detail, but I was able to finally play with the VP180 today. I figured I'd start a new thread to save others/newcomers having to read through the massive VP180 thread before getting to any reviews/feedback. I will start with my (unprofessional) impressions but any and all other owners are encouraged to add theirs as well.

Here is a picture of the VP180 standing on end beside an M80 for reference, sorry I don't know how to attach an image.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51286284@N02/4716480288/sizes/l/

Yes, the VP180 is a beast and is every bit as big and heavy as the M80. The M80 only appears slightly taller because it has four rubber feet supporting it.

First part of listening was done with the VP180 oriented vertically (like in the picture) and compared to an M80. In a nutshell, the VP180 sounds incredible! It is literally as close as you will come to the sound of an M80 without actually getting an M80. First thing that stood out was the depth of sound. Did not sound hollow or tinny, it did sound full and rich and detailed. Bass was plentiful and provided lots of punch, just like the chest thumping effect I get from the M80's. I did all my testing without a sub and the VP180 didn't miss it that's for sure. The mids and vocals were clear and smooth, no evidence of any sibilance whatsoever, just like the M80's. The highs, again like the M80's, were detailed, crisp, and...well...sweet. By sweet I mean not overbearing or bright or fatiguing, at least it wasn't for the 3 hours I was listening.

So is it 100% identical to the M80? No, but I'd say 99%. It's hard to describe the difference. First off, even though the specs say sensitivity is the same as M80, I found that I had to increase the VP180 level by 2dB in order to acheive the same SPL as the M80. Even with that correction, though, I could still hear a very very slight difference. I will cautiously say that I found the M80 to be *slightly* more forward (prominent?), BUT the difference diminished as I lowered my ear level, so maybe it has to do with the driver alignment. Without direct comparison to the M80's I'd likely be more than happy with a pair of vertical VP180's as mains, but I can't really think of a situation where I'd ever recommend that setup over a pair of M80's. Horizontal placement is an entirely different matter. Here, there is no comparison at all, the VP180 wins hands down.

Geting too late and too tired now, sorry can't think of anything else to write. Will add more if I can remember. Feel free to ask questions and I'll do my best to answer, that may be the easiest way to get info out of me, LOL.

Thanks for the review!

Nice review HT, sounds like another winner from Axiom!

I am very impressed with mine as well .

Regardless of the similarities and driver configurations in center channel speakers compared to the mains, what you are describing in terms of what you are hearing is the inherent limitations of horizontal center channels. Adjusting your ear level is essentially the same as re-positioning the speaker and center channels have always been more sensitive to this issue.

Back some some time ago Alan Lofft wrote an interesting article about this when comparing the VP150 and 100 and how the sound changed just by a slight move in location.

It seems nothing will ever beat the original THX concept of identical speakers in the front three channels, however, when you have big "floor-standers" in your L/R configuration, for many it is not possible.

Actually, the VP180 was vertical when I noticed the effect of different ear levels. I found that when the VP180 was oriented horizontally, raising or lowering the ear level made little difference.

Well if that`s the case, then our friends at Axiom have unlocked the secret of how to build the "ultimate" horizontally oriented center channel.

Thanks for the review HT. It seems your initial impressions and mine were just about the same. I love the VP180, and cannot even think to put it in the same class as the VP150.

I did notice that moving my ears lower tended to make the sound more pronounced. What I did to fix the situation was angle the speaker more upward (I had the VP150 flat horizontal). Just propping it up about 15 degrees did the trick. With the adjustment, I have the VP150 about 2db less than the M80s (most likely because the M80s are about 2-3 feet farther away from my main listening position than the VP180).

Glad to see you're enjoying the speaker!

Casey, on the vertical dispersion point, that's actually about what would be expected from any horizontally configured speaker. The vertical speaker is designed for wide horizontal dispersion and narrower vertical dispersion. When on its side, the broad horizontal dispersion is obviously transformed to the vertical plane.

One interesting point for further comment would be a comparison of the horizontal VP180 with the vertical VP180 for center channel duties.

Now that would be interesting. I'd imagine it would be an even better / closer match than a VP180 with two M80's. It would basically come down to the sound of the M80's vs the sound of the (vertical) VP180's. If one feels that the difference is small enough, non existant, or in favour of the VP180's then they'd have themselves an ideal setup with three VP180's.

OK, so I finally came home and got to play for a couple of hours with my new toy and thought I would share my first impressions.

Please keep in mind that this is my opinion and I am by no mean an expert or audiophile so my terminology might be very simple. Also I haven't re-calibrated my system yet as my comparison was a direct comparison with the VP150.
First of all, when I got the VP150 about 1 1/2 month ago, I posted on another thread that I found it OK for movies but not too good for concerts. The voice of the singers were "thin" and seemed that they were singing from a further distance. Also the speaker didn't "spread" wide enough and the voices were localized just on the center of my TV. Also, the upper mid bass from a bass guitar was almost disappearing. For this reason, I used to watch concerts just with my mains.
Let me tell you, everything that disappointed me on the VP150 is long gone as the VP180 meets and exceeds my expectations. The sound is full, the voices spread wide and the bass guitar is finally back. What really impressed me was when I set the VP180 to full range. Maybe it's because I don't have a sub yet but WHAO!!!, what a difference even from the VP180 set to small. When at the main listening position, turning on and off the center sounds almost the same when it did not with the VP150. The only difference that I noticed was a difference in sound level, I found the M80s to play a bit louder, maybe being a little bit more "forward", but calibration will probably help at least for the volume level. The vocals spread wide and sound more natural, the singer are right in front of me, the sound stage is just more ..... complete.
For HT, I didn't find the difference so significant, maybe a bit better sound stage, specially when some lower frequencies are sent to the center, and the dialog seemed a bit more natural.

I have to play a bit more with it but these are my first impressions and hope it will help. For me, this speaker is definitely the one to have for people that have M80s, specially for music and is definitely worth the extra $$$. I can now return the VP150 with no doubt in my mind.

Now for the look. YESSSSSSSS !!!! It's big and bulky !!! But if you have the space and are able to convince the wife, go for it.
The magnetic grill is definitely a nice touch and gives the speaker a more modern. Even though I don't put it on, I love it (no holes on the speaker )
I was one of the first ones to say that I wasn't a fan of the new drivers. Well at first it looks odd cause I was used to the black and white, but after a couple of hours, I found that the all white looks OK, neither better or worst, just different and I would be fine with either. I think it would have looked better without dust caps all together. What is the main purpose of that anyways?
Now my only problem is that I am a grills off guy and of course, like many, would like my 3 fronts to match. So I am wondering if Axiom will help current customers in any way in this matter, maybe send replacement all-white drivers or if they would give me a good value for my 5 months old M80s, I would replace them once the M80s with all-white drivers and magnetic grills will come out.

Dust caps are for keeping (as the name implies) dust out of the "engine" of the speaker driver. The diagram below shows a cutaway view.



If enough dust or debris gets into the area between the voice coil and the pole piece, you'll have friction in a place you definitely don't want it. Dust cap-less speakers, like those found in many subwoofers, simply have the voice coil attached directly to the underside of a bowl-shaped driver.

Fixed.

OK WHERE ARE THE REVIEWS!!! I want to hear what everyone thinks that has one already. NEED more!!! I guess it doesn't matter since I have already ordered one, but want to hear anyway. I don't get to play with mine until next week. I especially would like to hear everyone's thoughts about how well it does on classical type music. I LOVE the battlestar galactica from syfy and wonder how much improvement they notice.

I just plugged mine in. Heading up to give it a listen now, although I'm not going to have time for any real A/B testing against the VP100 it's replacing tonight.

Here's what it looks like anyways. The stands are temporary. Yes all of the equipment is going to be moved to a rack over on the left. Yes I'm going to get off my butt and rewire with the nice green jacketed 12ga wire I bought two years ago. Yes I'm going to vacuum (the built-in vac doesn't have a jack upstairs for some bizarre reason).



EDIT - and yes I know the rug isn't straight

I just noticed that Amanda Tapping has a black handgun and the other guy has a stainless one. Just like the dustcaps. No that was not planned.

John, those are Axiom stands; no need for replacement.

Can I use v2 stands with v3 speakers ?

Actually I guess those are probably M2ti boxes.

Ok, its been at LEAST 15 min. I need an update.....

Uggh, I can't stand knowing mine is in a box at home just WAITING for me. I think this is the first time I have ever wanted to get back from a vacation.

I'd say I feel for you, but I don't have a VP180 waiting for me at home.

Hello Bridgman。　What color are your speakers? Are they light maple? I liked the color on the picture you took!

Man...the VP180 price still remained at the pre-order price in my cart.....the hand feels very itchy to click "Buy Now", but one of my deals goes bust and no extra income for me...ARRGGGGHH...

Yes, it's the "maple" selection out of the four standard colours. I really like it.

I have to say, in looking at John's photo, I didn't even notice that the dustcaps were different.

I might have been distracted by that damned crooked rug, though.

It really casts the room asunder.

Just to keep all the reviews (initial impressions) together, here is a link to my review on the other thread:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=305453#Post305453

I also like the 'dust capless' cones. If they can do it with the EP800 cones, they can do it with the midrange/bass cones as well. Makes for an over all cleaner look IMO.

I also like the look of the no-dust cap drivers, they just look koowell!

Well, I finally received the VP180. WOW, this thing is huge!!! I haven't had a chance to test it as I'm waiting on my Denon 4810 arriving on Tues, ahhh, the wait is not going to be easy!
A couple pics,

I *finally* received our VP180 today, it was supposed to arrive yesterday and whenever I inquired about the delay to the delivery driver today he told me the box was mistakenly put on the wrong local truck yesterday so I had to wait another day ... 's OK, I am a very patient man.

Anyhoo...

This center channel freakin' rocks! The guys and gals at Axiom hit nothing less than a game winning grand slam with this beauty. Whenever I connected it up for the first time my initial reaction was that it blended so smoothly and effortlessly with the M80s that it didn't sound like there was even a center present due to the seamless soundstage I was experiencing. It replaced our above and below VP100 and VP150 that I thought was doing an excellent job and to be quite honest I had doubts that a single center would create the expanded soundstage and planted dialog to the screen that the two centers did for so long with our system but was I ever so pleasantly surprised to find that this single surpasses the two centers by a longshot and I now have no need whatsoever to feel like a second center will ever be needed.

Firstly I plugged in 'Master and Commander' for a couple of the good scenes and was floored that not only is the dialog centered to the screen but it is centered to the entire front soundstage, so unbelievably seamless and blended with the other M80's that it's almost as if there's just one huge speaker that covers the front soundstage from sidewall to sidewall. Most of the afternoon I hit bits and parts of other movies along with music in different surround modes and this 180 tackles each task with ease ... I *really* like this speaker a lot, the silver dust domes are a nice touch and the magnetic grills are just bad ass to the bone!

Congrats Ian and thanks for developing this center channel, it's an absolute winner in every way ... you guys rock!

Cheers!

Thats a really nice setup. I see the tweets from the center line up with the mains. Cool!

You know, I think the drivers in the new center look really good with the v2 M80

::runs away quickly::

kmcalvano, what are you using to support your VP-180? can you post a link and maybe some close-ups?


thanks.

Sorry, no link, I actually made the cabinet myself;) Here are a few more pics.

Sorry, no link, I actually made the cabinet myself;) Here are a few more pics.

where did you get the spikes from? and how are they mounted to the center?

nice cabinetry work by the way! now you need to fill that one hole in the top center



:p

sunday cant come soon enough eh?

WOW GUYS! Those are really nice rooms. Rick that place is awesome and kmclavano that cabinet is wonderful. Rick, your review is gonna give me a speeding ticket on the way home from the beach. I am so excited to get back and play. I can't wait to play some movies and music when I get home.

I though exactly of the same thing. My wife noticed that too .... in her own way. She said:
"I don't know why you bought this one, it's so big and I can't even hear it, at least the other one (the VP150) I could"

Wides and Heights all ready to go! NICE!

Is that what the M22's are for? Wide channels? Do they make a reciever that plays BOTH wide and heigth channels at the same time?

Sweet room Rick, somehow I've never seen pictures of it before (is this the first time you've posted them?). Do you have bass traps along the rear corners as well? Or just the fronts?

Micah, Denon has several that can play both wide and heights at the same time. The 4810 can do it natively and the lower 33/4300 series can do it with external amps.

There are still no receivers/pre-pros which can have Surround-Rears, Wides, and Heights active at the same time though, right? Those Denons which can do Wides and Heights at the same time, do so at the sacrifice of the Surround-Backs?

The Denon 4810 can do 11.3 including surround backs with one outboard amp

That's really cool, thanks.

Finally got a SEC to play with the 180 and I emphasize just a sec. Got home from the beach at 8 hooked it up and watched the opening scence of toy story 2 then the boy had to go to bed, so can't wait till tomorrow. So far. I LIKIE!!!

I see you wasted no time upgrading your sig

Yeah, he could have had at least another sec listening to the 180.

Scott

I figured it was time to update the signature. I knew I wouldn't be sending this 180 back!

Have you listened to them any more?

Thanks Micah, no there aren't any bass traps in the rear of the room due to the layout of the back wall but I do like what they do along the front wall ... covering up my crooked ass drywall work!

While there are a few comments already about this I have a couple specific questions about the VP180. I’ve read the reviews so far and some of this has been covered a bit I’m just looking for more opinions if anyone would like to share.

1. How is the timbre match between the VP180 and the M80v2/ti. Specifically has anyone tested how voices, especially male ones, sound when panning from center to left or right or vise versa.

2. How is the off axis FR. Specifically is there a noticeable change as one moves from the center of the room to either side.

3. How does the discrete placement of instruments and vocalists sound using the VP180? Are they precise or a bit spread out?

Cheers,
Dean

1. I think it's as close of a match as you could hope for. No real noticeable difference.

2. Much wider than the VP150. Sitting to the side seat, I still hear the center channel (I did not with the VP150).

3. I have a much greater sense of placement with the VP180.

Thanks Steve that’s what I was hopping to hear.

I agree with all 3 Steve's comments.
If you recall, in a previous post, I mentioned that I had to turn the VP150 off for music as the experience was much more enjoyable only with the 2 fronts. Well, not anymore
When in the main listening position, it is very close. Of course, when you shift to the side, it is not the same but you still hear all the instruments (ie mid/upper bass that I couldn't hear before) and vocals.

Hello, My impressions are that vp 180 blows my m80's away.Could something be wrong with my m80's.I listen to some WHO songs and the center was so much better than the other speakers. Is this normal? .Any comments would be very helpful. thanks pat

I would hazard a guess that there's something wrong in your setup...

Since you are using the center speaker to listen to music, I am assuming you are listening utilizing a surround program(DPLII, Neo6 etc.). I guess the question is how do you have it set-up, vis a vis the relationship between the center and L/R speakers and their volume levels. No center speaker(in mono) should sound better than its equivalent L/R combo no matter how good it is.

Thanks Bruno, I also turned off my center VP150 for music always and movies if it was just me in the sweet spot until I got my M80 center.

When you sit off to the side do you notice any “beaming” effect like the sound from the VP180 is coming out of a tunnel? I know you sit close so this might not have even been an issue for you with the VP150.

Based on your comment’s it sounds like you would have to A/B compare the VP180 directly with the M80s playing the center to hear any difference (and then location and orientation could be the cause), would that be an accurate assessment?

Got some more time this weekend with the VP180 and the more I use it the more I love it. Music has never sounded better, and hearing it with the VP180 just makes me want to listen to more and more I ran it set to large without a sub this time and it was absolutely incredible. For anyone who's heard the M80's without a sub they will know what I mean. If it weren't for movies, I could easily live without a sub.

To keep this from turning into a love fest, I will comment on the horizontal off axis performance. Now, before I get lambasted, this is not a complaint, negative, con, or knock on the VP180. It is entirely possible that my following comments apply to any and all horizontally designed and oriented centre speakers, so take it FWIW.

There is a very slight dropoff in SPL and a very slight change in FR as you move left/right. The dropoff is more significant as you move towards the extreme left/right. You can still hear the VP180 loud and clear and detailed, just not as loud or prominent as in the sweetspot, which is direct centre.

I do understand that this is normal for horizontal centres, so there may be no way to actually change or improve it. I'm just wondering if having a tweeter above a mid driver (to mimic a vertical speaker) would improve the horizontal off axis performance. My frame of reference is the M80, which IMHO has outstanding horizontal off axis performance, so it may be asking too much.

OTOH, the vertical off axis performance of the VP180 is fantastic. I know this matters little to most people, but my VP180 sits close to the ground and needs to reach an elevated back row of seats. Whether I'm sitting on the ground or standing on the elevated platform, there is almost no difference in sound. Simply amazing.

I want to add that the horizontal dropoff is difficult to notice if/when the mains and/or surrounds are playing content at the same time (ie. under normal conditions). Isolating the centre by disabling all other speakers made the differences easier for me to hear. Also, you will only notice it if you keep sliding from one side to the other, which no one does when listening to music or movies, so practically speaking this shouldn't be an issue for most people.

I can just about guarantee that Axiom tried the tweeters in the middle before settling on their rather unorthodox approach. Ian mentioned that they were trying a ton of different configurations...

Then that's all I need to hear Like I said before, this is probably as close as you can come to an M80 using a horizontal design.

It may be just as well, as the twetter over mid driver design may lessen the vertical off axis performance, which I need. Thanks for letting me know that they tried it, now no more wondering.

Thanks for posting more impressions of your VP180.


On several occasions I’ve gone w/o a sub w/o realizing it for some time until I play something that I know well enough to realize some very low bass is missing. My M80s routinely shake my seats just playing music in 2/ch direct.



They do, as demonstated in an Audioholics test done awhile back:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/lou...evaluation.html

Where a $115 vertically arrayed bookshelf speaker bested all the horizontally arrayed center speakers when tested off axis. Only two centers, the $600 and $2,500 arrayed vertically bested the little $115 vertical bookshelf off axis.

Also note that a speakers location in the room can have a profound effect on how it sounds. Even with identical M80s across the front I can still detect slight time mismatches when certain sounds pan across the front even though the speakers are identical.

I’m just glad that Axiom is now making a center speaker that seems worthy of playing with the M80s for those who can’t fit an M80 center.

"Tweeters in the middle" isn't T/M.

That's very true, and the version that had the drivers "conventionally" oriented (tweeters vertically stacked in the middle) actually lost out early on during our development of the VP180. It may not be obvious to some, but there is a tonne of science, measurement, and listening that goes into determining driver positioning, even more so when it comes to a centre channel. I'm not sure how a tweeter above the mid orientation would be implemented with the M80 driver complement without the cabinet becoming as tall as an M22. Everyone can rest assured that the VP180 is THE best centre channel match to the M80 that we know how to build as of right now!

Andrew

I don't think I said tweeters in the middle, but if I did then I actually meant tweeter over mid driver.

For sure, using dual tweeters and dual mids in a tweeter over mid config would be too tall, but I was wondering about single tweeter over single mid. I know this wouldn't really be an M80 equivalent, just wondering if that layout provides better horizontal off axis performance. Thanks for the reassurance though, I'm loving my VP180

That would put the speaker at either 11.5" or 13.5" tall, using the specs of the M2 and M3 since it would be using one of those driver configurations. That is a tough sell for most people who don't have a projector since it seems very difficult to get a TV stand that would be able to house a 1 foot tall speaker that is probably quite wide as well. Right now with my VP150 is slightly blocking the bottom of my TV when I recline my chair. If I were to go to the VP180, I would be more than slightly and I am not going to do it right now. A 12" tall center speaker is out of the question for me right now. Again, once I go to a dedicated room with a projector, it is much easier to fit such a design.

Dean, rest assured that the VP180 sounds far from coming from a tunnel, the best way to put it is as Hnut said:

I completely agree with this statement also it seems to me from your previous posts that you are more picky or should I say expert in this type of things and you might hear things that most people won't.

You are right. The only comparison that I did was between the VP180 and the M80s with a phantom channel and as I said, the 2 sounded way more similar in terms of SPL, timbre and overall sound as the VP150 would ever dream of. As for comparison between a VP180 and a M80 as center, I would like to hear a review on that (maybe by you ) as I think they will be nearly identical at the sweet spot and will start differing when shifting left/right due to the horizontal design.

ALMOST yes but there is.

I really hope so but I can't comment since I don't have surrounds yet

Exactly! You can now add the VP180 to that category

Thanks for the read! Very enlightening, for me at least lol. My $0.02 regarding the article's concerns:

"The subtracting and adding of various frequencies at various angles can result in audible shifting in the speaker’s sound across the room."

I believe I am experiencing this with the VP180, but it is very slight and not likely to be noticable under normal listening conditions. Most of my friends only noticed it once I pointed it out to them and they started testing and listening for it, while two of them didn't notice it at all, even after I tried to explain it to them.

Personally, I found it more noticable with vocals (ie. singing) and less noticable with dialogue during movies. This may have more to do with the fact that movie dialgue bounces from actor to actor with sound and/or effects in the background, so it's masked somewhat.

It is more noticable when all other speakers are disabled and you start shifting from one side of the room to the other, but nobody (I hope) listens to music or watches movies like this. If I were to sit and stay in any (reasonable) listening position other than the sweetspot, I'd still be very happy with the sound coming out of the VP180.

"Off-axis, MTM speakers can often sound hollow..."

I can say that I've never found the VP180 to be even remotely hollow, regardless of where I am standing or sitting. I've even tried some pretty extreme spots, like almost 90 degrees off centre, and it still does not sound "hollow" in any way.

"...but the comb filtering, or lobing effect, can also shift the imaging away from the middle as a “phasy” sound."

I have no idea if this is going on, but if it is then I can't hear or notice it. I find that no matter where I am located in the room, the VP180 keeps the sound imaging centered to the screen. It's funny, because two of the VP180's strongest attributes are precisely this, the fact that it is always full and rich sounding and never hollow, and that it manages to keep the sound coming from it firmly anchored to the screen.

"...do your best to avoid or minimize wave interference across your room by being wary of horizontal redundancy."

This may be true, but whatever Axiom did to the VP180 sure seemed to work. I'm no speaker engineer so I don't know exactly how Axiom pulled it off, but my best guess is that the crossover points, the layout of the drivers, and the distances between the redundant drivers have all been carefully calculated and designed in order to minimize the shortcomings of an MTM design. Whatever the case, the VP180 provides great sound to every seat in my room, and amazing sound to one very lucky sweetspot

Agreed!

As happy as I am with the VP180, I would still like to try a WT/MW unit from Axiom one day. I don't actually expect it to be better than the VP180 in terms of sonically matching the M80, but it would be nice to see if the horizontal off axis performance is significantly better, and to see how much (if any) of the vertical off axis performance is affected by the vertical T/M alignment.

If a single small mid driver (required to keep cabinet size down) is a concern then perhaps they could try a WMT/MMW layout that uses a small mid driver under the tweeter, flanked by larger mid drivers and then woofers on the outside.

Thank Gawd (and Dean) and QFT.

I'm STUNNED that observations about speaker placement and room interactions have been virtually nonexistent in these discussions.

Even if you had IDENTICAL speakers that were oriented identically, wouldn't you expect them to sound slightly different if one was in the middle of the room and one was near(er) a wall?

It's supposed to be fun, remember?

That is very true, but that doesn't mean you can use just any speaker as long as it is in the "correct" location in a properly treated room. Some people are restricted to what they can do to their room and/or where they can place the speakers, so the next thing they have control over is the speaker itself.

Can one of you guys with both the VP150 and VP180 do a test for me please?

I do not want to give up my center arrangement of one under and one over my screen. I can't, no way in hell, hand a VP180.

I'm very curious to hear if the the two centers would play nice together. So if any of you guys who own both could give this arrangement a try (VP180 under and VP150 over the screen), and report back what your thoughts and impressions were, it would be appreciated.

That would be interesting, I think RickF would be able to do it somewhat easily, looking at his latest pics.

I am expecting the SPL to be different, but enough to make it distracting or would it blend?

Thanks for the follow up.



Yes I have unfortunately trained my ear to hear subtle difference in timbre I would never have noticed years ago. However, the “tunneling” or “beaming” effect I describe hearing with the VP150 in my present room is not subtle. It sounds like the speaker is at the back of a sewer tunnel when moving the left and right seats. Note that this particular effect has only happened in one out of three rooms I’ve tried it in.

I've not experienced any tunneling or beaming effect so far.

If it’s very slight then do yourself a favour and stop listening for it right now or you will end up quite insane like me.


I also notice it more with music. I agree with your reasoning and would add from what I’ve read that in many cased the sound engineer will mix some of the center channel into the mains to get a more seamless soundstage for movies especially with things moving and panning around the screen.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. If you were hearing the “hollowness” in my experience it’s never subtle so sounds like its not there.

+1 lol

I'll give it a try Michael and Jay, the only arrangement I will be able to try is the VP180 below and the VP150 above the screen. The only reason I have not tried this yet is the load the 6 ohm 150 and the 4 ohm 180 (3 ohms?) wired together will put on the AVR, but it's an H/K so if it works, OK and if not ... time to upgrade the AVR anyway.

Jeeesh, Rick. If you were a REAL friend you'd haul that VP180 up to the ceiling and do it right.

Tough crowd.

I thought you had that Sunfire Amp Rick? Not anymore?

I never had one Mike, if you remember JonInFl, he had a stack of Sunfire amps with a pair of M60s ... I've got the Rotel RB-1080. I'll get the VP150/180* combo together whenever I get some time this week.

*With the VP150 above the 180 unless a 'friend' wants to come over and haul the 180 to the ceiling for me.

Expect me around February.

The beer will be cold Fred.