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#327972 - 11/10/10 09:44 AM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: ClubNeon]
billy p Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Markham, Ont
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
There's an update on Audioholics about this shootout, and some insanity surrounding it.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/subwoofer-shootout

In the attached discussion it has been surmised that it was Axiom who was opposed to the groundplane measurements, and pulled advertising from the site.


AAMOF...I read an email from another member regarding why Axiom declined their participation in this shootout. It was from Alan Loft and he express concern in which Gene outlined in his retort and I'll leave it at that!

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#327978 - 11/10/10 10:07 AM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: Adrian]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Adrian
Kind of reminds me of the shootouts you see when they compare automobiles in magazines. You have a group of people who are interested in track times, another who is interested in bang-for-buck, others who's main focus is reliability or ride quality or economy....It always irks me when you read comments like "The xxxx blew everyone away on the track, so it should have won..."

In a subwoofer shootout, the reviewer imo would need to make it very clear what things they are judging/looking for...outright spl, accuracy, value, quality/reliability....otherwise you will get someone sending a Bugatti Veyron to a family sedan shootout.


Absolutely, other than maybe learning about a new product, I have, in recent years, pretty well ignored these comparisons. The problem always is who is setting the parameters and what will they be to make it fair and accurate to all the participants and do the parameters really mean anything? I learned the folly of this back two or three years ago when one of the major publications was doing a so-called "shoot-out" with about half a dozen newly introduced television monitors viewed by four "experts" all gathered in the same room at the same time and when they summed up all their findings at the end, what was a perceived flaw in one particular model by one "expert" was pleasing to another! So what was the point?

Same old story, in the end you make your own decisions and just do what is right for you.

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#327979 - 11/10/10 10:43 AM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: casey01]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
I trust you guys more than I trust Audioholics or any similarly situated entity.
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#327983 - 11/10/10 12:22 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: tomtuttle]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Unfortunately far too many people use these types of comparisons to proclaim this one is the best and berate the lower rated ones. It still comes down to how each one sounds to each prospective buyers ears, but with poor, unfavorable reviews via a comparison like this, can kill a sub instantly.
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#327985 - 11/10/10 12:38 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: casey01]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: casey01
four "experts" all gathered in the same room at the same time and when they summed up all their findings at the end, what was a perceived flaw in one particular model by one "expert" was pleasing to another! So what was the point?

Same old story, in the end you make your own decisions and just do what is right for you.

And this is very much true. However, if such a shootout produces a result where all the reviewers agreed on a negative issue (e.g. a particular tv had a green tint, a particular sub had reverberations, etc.), information can be gained with reasonable confidence from the results.
The tough part is having a large enough number of samples (i.e. participants) to cover statistical confidence and reduce the chance of personal preference vs. non-perceived characterstics.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#327986 - 11/10/10 12:39 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: chesseroo]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
I don’t really see the problem with using ground-plane measurement if all the subwoofers are being measured the same way. Coincidentally my subwoofer is sitting on my floor and not on a 90 foot tower in my living room (now that would be one heck of a vaulted ceiling).

Though I do agree with the general sentiment that these types of “shootouts” where products are ranked tend to be problimatic.
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#327990 - 11/10/10 01:37 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: grunt]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I am planing on buying a sub next year. Even though the final choice is up to the customer's ears, I am interested in the results. As previously mentioned, if all the reviewers agree, it can give you an idea if a particular sub would be worth your while to look at or not. Not everybody has a possibility to listen to several subs in the same room in order to make their decision. So if this shootout helps narrowing to a few choices, I think it's good. If one sub that you were looking at is featured in this shootout, you can have an idea to how it performs, same as any other review.
Even though they could return the speakers, a lot of people bought Axiom speakers without ever hearing them before, just bases on the reviews that they have, and are extremely happy with them. So I don't think it's a bad thing IMHO.
_________________________
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M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
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#327992 - 11/10/10 02:10 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: bdpf]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
When it comes to sub evaluations, the reason why I have always been a little skeptical to the approach is that despite the good intentions of determining and comparing performance, given their specific purpose and limited frequency range, it always seems in the end, reviewers tend to lean toward those subs that have the capability of achieving the highest SPL levels at the lowest frequency ranges with the least distortion. Tell me something that I don't already know.

Based on comparative sub reviews I have seen in the past it is almost always the largest and most expensive model of any manufacturer that sits at or near the top of the reviewers list. Despite Axiom's decision not to take part, I would suspect that the EP800 would have fared quite well.




Edited by casey01 (11/10/10 02:16 PM)

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#327993 - 11/10/10 02:32 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: casey01]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: casey01

Based on comparative sub reviews I have seen in the past it is almost always the largest and most expensive model of any manufacturer that sits at or near the top of the reviewers list. Despite Axiom's decision not to take part, I would suspect that the EP800 would have fared quite well.


But how many reviews have you read about that used a proper double blind listening test?

Because all other reviews (which covers virtually every review i've read in any mag or ezine or forum) would naturally rank the subs as you say based on any number of biases from product marketing, to size impressions and simply overdone bass.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#327995 - 11/10/10 02:39 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: casey01]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: casey01
When it comes to sub evaluations, the reason why I have always been a little skeptical to the approach is that despite the good intentions of determining and comparing performance, given their specific purpose and limited frequency range, it always seems in the end, reviewers tend to lean toward those subs that have the capability of achieving the highest SPL levels at the lowest frequency ranges with the least distortion. Tell me something that I don't already know.


The thing that people don't already know seems to be how each company's top model compares to every other one, thus the comparison. Individual sub evaluations I can see the pointlessness of for consumers. So the sub reviews well. But why would a consumer go for this particular model over what all of the competition is offering? The problem is that all of this gear is expensive, so it's not like a lot of people are going to have meaningful input like you can get with customer reviews of more affordable products. We're stuck with the very occasional comparisons which never covers near enough of the offerings. It's always going to be a bit of a shot in the dark in this hobby. Still, I'm not against Audioholics or any other outlet doing what they can to assist consumers. There SHOULD be a reason to choose one product over another.

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