Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Not sure if I want to keep them...

I received my axioms last week: M2i,vp100,qs4 setup for 95% HT use. I have been listening closely for the past week and I can't decide whether to keep them.

First of all, the vp100 and the qs4s are vastly superior to my existing speakers (Advent Cinema Center and KLH surrounds). They sound wonderful and I know I have to get a new center and surrounds.

My current mains are 10 yr old. Advent Laureate towers with a 1" tweeter and two 6 1/2" woofers. I have been doing a bunch of A/B tests between the two sets of mains with various audio/video sources (DD, DTS, ProLogicII, stereo). My Advents have a much fuller sound, almost three dimentional at times. The Axioms are more precise, but also they sound kinda "thin". I am having a hard time justifying the $255 price tag for no improvement in sound.

I have read a lot of other posts where people are just blown away by the Axioms. Are they moving up from terrible speakers? Am I just too used to the Advents to give the Axioms a chance? Has anybody else had this experience?

Any suggestions on material to make the final decision? Am I better off just looking for a new center and surrounds with the same budget and keeping my Advents?

I want to love the Axioms, and I do really like the VP100 and the QS4s, but I just can't decide whether or not to keep the M2is.

tivofish,

Sounds like your Advents cover the bass area much better then the M2ti, and that's not surprising. The thinness you're hearing from the M2tis is most likely due to the fact that they only play down to about 70Hz (+/- 3db). With dual 6/5" woofers on your Advents, they probably go down to about 45Hz. That difference accounts for the thinness you're hearing. As you mentioned, the Axioms are more precise than your Advents. If you bought a sup to compliment them, that thinness would instantly disappear and you'd be in audio nirvana.

If you'd rather not buy a subwoofer and would like a speaker that plays about as low as your Advents do, I'd consider the Axiom M22ti.

TF, if you're listening without a sub, that isn't what the M2s are designed for. They fall off quite steeply below about 80-90Hz and are supposed to be crossed over to a sub in that area. If you are using a good sub, properly crossed over to the M2s, I'd suggest that possibly the Advents are bumped up in the upper bass around 100-150Hz, giving an impression of "fullness" that you've become used to, although it isn't accurate. The M2s should certainly be superior from about 100Hz up.

Tivo, just to echo what the others have said, you can't expect the M2's to be more than they were designed to be. They are the closest that Axiom comes to a sub/sat type speaker. They really are designed to be used with a sub. Heck, even my M22's can sound a bit thin when used on their own and not with a sub. But when I pair my M22's with my SVS sub, however, I have a sound that rivals speakers costing many times more.

Maybe you can explain what prompted you to switch from tower speakers with 2 6.5" woofers, to a bookshelf speaker with one 5.25" woofer. I am sure you recognize the physical differences between the two, and the thin sound coming from the M2 is not surprising considering the comparison.

Obviously, if the M2's are not what you are looking for, return them and try something else. There is nothing really you can do to "manufacture" bass in the M2's. It sounds like you wouldn't necessarily be inclined to step up in the Axiom line, so you might be best off looking at other lower priced options. Best of luck.

Since gem opened this facet of the discussion, I'd like to add some support to his point. If the expectaion was that $255 was going to improve the floor stander audio with small bookshelf speakers, it's not surprising that you might be disappointed. I believe you will find that to be the case with any small bookshelf, not just Axiom.

A pair of M22tis is only $145 more (plus the cost of stands) than the M2is and would be a VAST improvement over the Advents as well as the M2is. The M40 ($490) or M50 ($620), would also put you in a good place relative to the Advents.

I believe that chasing basic bookshelf speakers will not yield audio improvement for you.

Tivofish,

Everyone here makes excellent points. To put it a slightly different way: if you're accustomed to the sound of tower speakers, then from this point forward in your life you will only be happy with towers, or a bookshelf/sub combination.

Jason

tivo,
It seems that everyone has so far replied with nearly identical answers and i'm sorry to add that i have to concur 100%.
Here is a link to a rather lengthy post i put up awhile ago about my experience after first hearing the Axiom M22s i bought for auditioning. The whole concept of being "blown away" is described as rather non-existent, yet to this day i own Axiom speakers (albeit the M60s, the M22s went back).

I do have a subwoofer (Acoustic Research 8" 125W) and a Yamaha 1400 receiver.

I have the Yamaha do the automated settings for both setups during the comparison.

I wasn't expecting the M2is to compare in the bass category, but I was expecting to be blown away by the great sound.

I moved to bookshelves because I knew that my wife would like to get the floor space back and I was hoping that for my small room (12x12) they would be a better match.

You said that you had the Yamaha perform the automated setup. Just be sure to keep in mind the YPAO feature of the Yamaha 1400/2400 can sometimes provide inconsistent results. You might get a better comparison of the Axioms and the Advents if you run the Yamaha in Pure Direct mode (this turns off all room correction features / DSP).

Jason

A lot of what makes a speaker great is placement, and good placement for one pair of speakers isn't necessarilly good for another pair. I know it can be a pain, but keep at trying to find the perfect spot- it can make a big difference.

Make sure all your speakers are set to small and and your subwoofer crossover is set to the right frequency (70-100 hz). You may have a frequency gap between your main speakers and your sub.

If that is all set up properly, and you still don't like what you hear, then you just don't like the sound of the m2's. At that point you should send them back and get bigger speakers like the m50. If you can't afford m50's, return the qs4s put that money toward the m50's. Use your advents for surrounds until you can afford to replace them with qs4s.


Good luck!

paulu,
You should note, if someone is using a receiver for their crossover (ie. speakers set to small), the subwoofer crossover should be turned up all the way so that its internal crossover does not conflict with the receiver's.

In reply to:

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If you can't afford m50's, return the qs4s put that money toward the m50's. Use your advents for surrounds until you can afford to replace them with qs4s.

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That's a good idea, paulu.

Jason

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have done comparisons using the Direct Stereo mode on the Yamaha 1400. The Axioms are precise and thin, while the Advents sound much more rich and almost "three dimentional". I know that the Advents can produce bass much better on their own, but even the Axiom + Sub combo in 2 channel stereo mode doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. Do I need a better sub to really let the Axioms shine? If so, I am going to have to either move up to Axiom towers or wait until I can afford a better sub and bookshelves.

Most of my comparisons have been with 5.1 or ProLogic sources because I use the setup for 95% TV/DVD watching. I am very limited as to positioning of the speakers and both bookshelves must be mounted (the left on the left side wall and the right on the back wall) due to our odd shaped basement. The crossover is set at 100 for the Axioms (per Axiom's suggestion) and all the speakers are set to small.

tivo,
Although your sub is not exactly a renowned model, changing it out for a beefier one may not solve your problems or answer your questions. It might be worthwhile heading down to a local big box vendor and picking up something a little better in build than your AR sub just so you have something else for comparison. You can always return the sub after you are done the listening comparisons, assuming they have a decent return policy.

That being said, the Axiom speakers do not produce a rich or heavy midrange or bass. I noticed this as well when i first heard them but their precise and accurate clarity won me over. It is very possible that the Axiom sound is just not what you are looking for. You might want to take a look at an opinion review i posted recently about my thoughts on a variety of speakers we went to audition about a month ago. Do not remorse if you haven't found the sound you prefer. It can take awhile. I thought i had found it myself twice now and yet i've hear more brands that i think i like even better and we have spent nearly $6000 on our HT audio setup (video excluded).

did anyone ever think that his previous speakers might be good enough to not be blown away by the axioms? lol

the M2 isint one of axioms more impressive speakers IMHO. although ive never heard it. If you dont feel the M2 are good enough then return em! thats what the 30 day trial is for. Now that you know what the axioms can sound like you might decide to move up to one of the models that will probbly give you much more change.

Just my opinion.

You may want to the try the M3ti. The M3ti is one of Axiom's more laid back speaker, owing to the 6.5" driver. You'll probably consider them richer sounding than the M2ti. I have a pair of the M3ti's with a Acoustic Research Sub (with the same stats as your, it is the ARS108PSB) and I think it sounds very good. Also, your speakers may just need time to break in. Hope this helps!

The other variable here is your receiver. I almost bought a yamaha receiver, but ended up buying a marantz because had smoother more laid back sound. Axioms might not be a good match for your receiver. You could try the speakers with another amp and see if that makes a difference.

I am keeping the receiver. It was one of my new purchases and I love it. I know that Yammys have been known for a "bright" sound, but it does everything else that I was looking for and I can't return it.

I thought of trying the M3i instead. Should I return the M2is and get the M3is for another 30 days to try out? Or should I just order a pair of M3is so I can do a direct comparison?

tivo,
If you really want to change to a new type of sound, change your speakers or your room. Switching a Yamaha a/v receiver for another good name brand won't do squat.

If you pick up the M3s to compare against the M2s, post your thoughts. If you decide to return them, the shipping costs are usually quite minimal. Sending back M22s to Axiom with $400 insurance via regular parcel post cost me a whopping $24Cdn.

Tivo, possibly the M3 is probably a better fit for you. Re returning the M2s 1st, or doing side-by-side comparision, that's up to you. Side-by-side is often very informative.

I also have an RX-V1400. Sometimes YPAO selects odd bass crossovers and EQ settings. Yet you can't inspect the current EQ settings -- only by re-running YPAO in "step" mode and writing them down can you verify them.

Manually set your crossover to 80 or 100 hz and try that. Experimentally disable EQ by changing from parametric to graphical - flat.

Was your bass management with the Advents set to "both"? If so you were combining sub and speaker bass. If the M2s were substituted in this configuration, they'd naturally sound thin since they have less bass capability to augment the sub. Just one possibility.

Make sure your bass setting with both Advents and M2s is "SWFR", not "both". Re-run YPAO in step mode and verify your speaker and bass management settings afterward. Disable parametric EQ for A/B speaker testing. It's easily possible YPAO could do something odd with one set of speakers and not the other.

Tivo, I have to agree with Haoleb's & Chess's last posts. If you are not happy, send them back. But first, have you tried different crossover points on both the sub and the M2's? If the 2's are set too high and the sub is set too low, you will be missing a critical band of frequencies.

Also, it has been discussed here many times, (by Alan and others) that when doing an A/B comparison, both speakers MUST be at the same volume level. Even the slightest variation will cause the louder speaker to sound superior.

There have been many flame wars here regarding speaker break-in, so take the following comments as PERSONAL OPINION only. I do not believe in speaker break-in, but I do believe in ear or brain break-in. All the reviews I have ever read about the M80's stated that they have incredible amounts of bass energy, but when I got mine, I thought, "Where is all this bass I had read about??" Words could not describe how much I loved the detail and clarity, but I was so disappointed in the bottom end.

After about 10 to 15 hours of playing / listening, the bass really came alive, and it is amazing how much bass they really do produce.

Now the reason I know this was my ears / brain adjusting to the new speakers, and not "break-in", is two fold. One, my previous speakers had 12" woofers that produced a "fat", bloated, sloppy bass that over powered the rest of the speaker. For over 20 years, that was my reference for "good" sound. Obviously, that is not how music is supposed to sound.

Secondly, my pair of 80's spent a month and a half at Joe's house before I got them. (Joe from Axiom) Any potential "break-in" that would have happened, happened long before I got them. Any perceived changes in sound were all in my head.

TF,as some of the replies have mentioned, be sure that regardless of YPAO, you have the speakers set small, with a crossover somewhere in the 80-100Hz area and that the sub is actually getting the regular bass in addition to just LFE from some movie tracks. Beyond that, I'll simply repeat that the M2s are excellent above 90-100Hz. They don't sound "rich" and neither do any of the other Axioms unless the recording being played has that frequency characteristic.

your M80's spent a month and a half at joe's house? did he do one of those airbrush deals i heard about a while back?

I ordered the m3s a while back and decided to upgrade to the m22 to fill my room. They sent me the m22s along with shipping coupons for free fed ex shipping, so I could send back the m3s back for free. My point (aside from that you should make sure you get free shipping if you upgrade) is that you Will be able to do a side by side comparison.

That's a good deal with the shipping coupons jserv. Is that an axiom policy? I would love to order two sets of speakers and pick the one like better and then ship the other back free! Is that an axiom policy or was that a special deal for you?

It may be a policy if you decide to upgrade, but not one that is laid out on the website or in the terms of the 30 day trial.

It's not standard Axiom policy. I think it's only when you are upgrading to another set. Trying giving them all call and ask about it. The guy who gave me the deal is named Brent. Let me know if it works out.

I just ordered the M3i fronts. Hopefully they will be what I am looking for. I didn't ask about the free shipping coupons.

I will let everyone know my thoughts after they arrive.

I just received the M3ti's today and have listened for about an hour and I think I like them better than the m2i's. I am going to do some A/B tests this weekend and hopefully I can make a decision in a week or so.