Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners What components for an M3 stereo system?

In the new office I'm working on at home, I would like to put a pair of M3's mounted on a wall that I'll be facing most of the time. So, I plan on running speaker wire from there to where I plan on placing some component(s).

I don't want to spend a lot of money on this, but at the same time, I'd be wanting something that sounds good.

Room size is approx. 150 sq foot.

My requirements: Play CD's with enough power to drive M3's so that they will sound their best. They are rated at 175 watt.

(I've read all of the points that it takes a lot of watts to raise the volume 1 db more, but I think there's a lot more to the sound than just raising the volume when adding additional power in watts. Deeper and louder bass, for instance.)

I'd like something along the lines of Marantz m-cr603, (which is a receiver and CD player) but it's only rated at 40 wpc at 8 ohms. This may be plenty to drive the little M3's, but I'd have to hear it first to be convinced that 40 watt is enough to get the best sound from them.

Other things I'd like to have if I don't have to pay a big premium for it: SACD, turntable hookup, tuner.

An older receiver may work fine, but I don't want an older CD player because the drive mechanisms wear out and the firmware may not play the newer discs. I've been replacing my blu-ray players about once a year due to this wear factor.

If there are multiple components, they all have to match.

Components must be primarily silver, (or white) to match the decor.

Remember that even though the M3s are rated at 175 watts, you will need nowhere near that much. They are rated to play at 96dB in a typical room when supplied with only 1 watt of power. Unless you plan on blasting your music at headache-inducing levels in your 150 sq ft room, that Marantz will handle the job nicely. Don't worry about a system's max wattage output too much. Just buy something that has the features you want.

You might be better served by going with an integrated amp and a separate player, though. That way you only have to replace the thing with moving parts when they wear out.

Ok. Thanks. When I look at the integrated receiver / cd player, it seems like it always costs much more. The Marantz is $699 msrp, but I've seen it for around $580 on-line.

I got into this max wattage thing, by buying a cheap Sony receiver, rated at 100 wpc. I replaced it with a Pioneer Elite rated at 110 wpc. They were not even comparable or in the same league power wise. So, to me, the wpc is somewhat meaningless, it seems to be more of a power supply issue between those 2 units. I just didn't want to get burned again with a cheap unit. And afraid that low wattage would produce the same weak results.

(I know the above isn't very logical, but it's how I feel about the power and wattage situation. It's like it's just a number that's not consistent between manufacturers and models of amplifiers.)

I was checking ebay and looking at the vintage Merantz receivers. Some of them looked pretty good. Were bid up to only around $100 to $200 dollars with 4 days to go. But, their WPC at 8 ohms were only around 20 watts. Does anyone have any experience with these?

There's one thing that isn't making sense now. If 1 watt is enough to power speakers at a comfortable level, how come,

1) There isn't a lot of 1 watt amplifiers?
2) Speakers are rated at a minimum of 10 watts?

About the minimum rating thing:

That 1 watt rating is done with a test tone with steady amplitude. Music is very dynamic and uses a much wider frequency range. I can say with high confidence that your average wattage use is not likely to exceed 5 watts, but brief loud spikes in music -- like cannons in the 1812 Overture, to take an extreme example -- will use a lot more for fractions of a second. If your amp can't supply adequate wattage for these spikes in the signal, clipping may occur and that's when speakers can be damaged.

The wattage needs of the M3s in a small room are not that high, even taking demanding peaks into account, unless you like the volume up really high all the time.

Well, what are we going for here? BOLD or ITALIC? Hedging your bet, in this case, doesn't work.

I like my music loud, but for this room, it'll be soft music most of the time, except the times I want to crank it a little. Probably play it in the 60 to 90 decimal range. I think M3's would probably be a good choice for that. Just not sure on minimum wattage of amplifier requirements. I don't want something that's going to sound lame, or not have enough power for those times where it's needed. I'm going to be hooking my Pioneer Elite up to them so I know what a good 110 watts sound like. If whatever I buy, say the Marantz 40 watt unit, doesn't sound the same, then it's going back to wherever it came from.

Be wary of the old Marantzs. They're beautiful and I love them, but I had quite a few problems with them (mainly just because they were old) when I had them. And that was over 10 years ago now.

Thanks. I'll probably avoid them now. (All your fault, you know )

This is the one I had my eyes on. A beautiful piece of furniture, I mean equipment.

Edit: I just noticed it said "cabinet", not receiver was for sale.

Did you read the description?

As long as it hums along with the left, it might not be so bad.

I wasn't intending on buying it right now, so I didn't read about it.

I got an extra paycheck this month (since I get paid once every 2 weeks, there's 2 months a year with 3 paydays), and I already spent it, then my car decided to break down. There seems to be a law about used cars and extra paychecks....

It's like, I spent about $1200 on it last summer to get the air conditioner working again. So, this year, it's jealous because I wasn't spending any money on it, so, it blew out the radiator and fans on a really hot day, when I was almost broke, just to get even....

No, but I looked at the pretty pictures.

Here's a thought. Buy this one, and an ugly one (same model), that works, then perform major surgery and combine the 2.

Old guts out. New guts in!

I found this on the Marantz M-CR603 receiver/cd player. I'm not sure what the difference is between rated and effective output is, but isn't 10% harmonic distortion a little much, or is this normal?

Rated output
(1 kHz, total harmonic distortion 0.7 %, 8 Ohms) 40 W + 40 W
(1 kHz, total harmonic distortion 0.7 %, 6 Ohms) 50 W + 50 W

Effective maximum output
(1 kHz, total harmonic distortion 10 %, 8 Ohms) 50 W + 50 W
(1 kHz, total harmonic distortion 10 %, 6 Ohms) 60 W + 60 W

Wow. That's really horrible.

Hi Cat,

That's what manufacturers did (and continue to do) to inflate the power output ratings--measure the output at very high distortion levels. I'm surprised that Marantz was honest enough to actually specify 10% distortion ratings; of course that's totally unacceptable for hi-fi purposes. Those sorts of specs were quite common on the power output ratings for after-market car audio in-dash receivers, whose real power output was about 3.2 watts per channel. Car audio builders would advertise the power output as 15 or 20 watts per channel (not quoting the distortion at those levels which would be at least 10% or more) to inflate the power output ratings.

Even now, some manufacturers of AV receivers (Onkyo and Yamaha, to mention two) continue to quote the bogus "dynamic power output" specs, which will yield huge power output levels because they don't state the distortion. The latter may be as high as 20% or more.

Regards,
Alan

That's pretty much what happens when you push any amp too far. When a waveform's shape is changed (like with the onset of clipping) it causes harmonic distortion.

Also note that the power output is measured at only a single frequency, 1 kHz, instead of across the audible spectrum, 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Measuring power output at a single frequency is another ruse to inflate power output.

As to the "effective power output" it's not a term that was in common usage. It seems to mean, "just crank up the sucker into the region of highly audible distortion, and measure what it puts out."

Our hearing is generally able to detect distortion with musical programming once it reaches the level 1% to 3%.

Alan

So, given all of the above ^^^, I take it I should stay away from this particular Marantz unit, if I want crisp, clear, undistorted sound at higher volume. (Amazing what $700 won't buy you.) I'm almost thinking about 2 outlaw mono-blocks instead, along with a pre-amp and a CD player, yada, yada, yada. Surely life gets easier than this.

Why don't you just get a newer used stereo receiver and a CD player? CD players cost like $20 these days.

Exactly. Axiom used to sell an entry-level Sherwood Newcastle RX-770 stereo receiver (also had a phono preamp section) that was an excellent unit, 100 watts per channel, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with harmonic distortion of 0.1 %.

It would drive the 4-ohm M80s to very loud clean playback levels in the Axiom listening room without overheating or shutting down. It sold for around $300 or so. It's no longer in the Sherwood line, but it and another stereo model, the R-773, were excellent units. H/K also had some excellent integrated amplifiers with robust amp sections.

Alan

Well, here's one possibility.

I forgot about the Sherwood line, there's the Sherwood RX-773 for $339.

The Sherwood CDC-690T CD Changer for $149.

Total: $448 + shipping.

Didn't you want silver components?

From the picures I saw of these, they were silver (the front plates, anyway). But, I'd call the seller to verify first.

I definitely like the look of the old Marantz stuff but it's hard to find old ones in good condition. I've tried on Audiogon. The nice thing about the older units is that it definitely has a PHONO input. I always like the look of the old Sansuis too, though I can't vouch for the sound.

Sansui. Now there's a name I haven't hear in a long, long time.

Price above I said $448 + shipping. I can't change it, but the correct price is $488 + shipping.

An Onkyo solution for silver boxes with SACD. There may be cheaper options, but I just ran out of time to look.

Onkyo C S5VL SACD player for around $350 to $600.

Onkyo TX-8255S stereo receiver for around $520.

Brian, as you've probably discovered, finding a combo receiver/player is tough and silver(at least in the U.S., it's much more popular in Europe and Asia)is too. Maybe the closest unit to what you were looking for which is available at a reasonable price is this . There'd be about 3dB less maximum output(and yes, amplification is just loudness; there ain't no more)than that Marantz unit, say mid 90s of dBs on peaks rather than high 90s.

If you look beyond the combo, you can find more(but still relatively limited)in silver by googling a topic such as "silver Onkyo receivers".

I was looking at that one, and wondering if the distortion of this unit might be as bad, or worse, than the Marantz unit. It's still a possibility. I was also looking at one of the cheaper Onkyo sacd players, but reviews said the drive mechanism was audible. Quick scan didn't turn it up, but it was only $109 dollars.

Brian, no need for the concern; both the Marantz and Onkyo units have inaudibly low distortion(i.e., below 1%)when operated within their designed power limits. When I mentioned mid 90s of dBs, I certainly didn't mean accompanied by significant distortion. Note that Alan pointed out above that on music(rather than pure test tones)distortion has to be greater than 1% to be audible.


Incidentally, that additional distortion rating at 10% is, somewhat surprisingly, part of an established organization's standard. It's the JEITA(Japan Electronics and Information Technology Industries Association)rating at "maximum" output, but it can also be noted that their "maximum undistorted" rating is at 1%. Some makers include that 10% number as an extra rating, but this doesn't really mean anything of significance; any amplifier will have 10% distortion if it's operated far enough above it's original design limit.

That's good to know. I won't be so worried about the distortion then. I'll relist them again here, just so they are both in one place to make them easy to find again.

Onkyo CR-525

Marantz M-CR603

I'm just afraid neither one of these will play bass like my Pioneer Elite will. I think I need more power.

Here's another link to the Sherwood RX-773. I think this is probably the best option for a receiver. Now, if they only had a matching CD player.

I bought a used Harmon Kardon 380i stereo receiver about 8 years ago for $40.



You can find its specs in pdf here:
http://www.eserviceinfo.com/downloadsm/46951/Harman/Kardon_HK380i.html

At 30 wpc at 8 ohms, it plays very solid in my home office with both pairs of speakers to which it is attached (Tannoy Revolution 3s and Angstrom Legattos).
My office is about 8' x 15' and i've never had a requirement for more SPL.

There are more used ones out there, dirt cheap.