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#402922 - 04/11/14 08:32 PM Lets plan a theater space
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
So, the moving truck came and went today and were almost moved across country. Our new place has a completely unfinished basement that I have already made rough plans for. They are not exact dimensions but a good scale based on the dimensions from our homes main floor dimensions. The space is roughly 15'6" x23'.

There will be a 112" screen about 14' from the viewing locations. The AT screen wall is 4' into the room.

If anyone has any feedback on how the space sould be lit, or a better idea for an A/V rack workaround I'd be greatful. So far I am thinking a soffit with rope accent with sconces at the midpoint of the top of each acoustic panel. The panel config and types are still tbd.

There will be cabinets on the backside of the left wall that will act as a cheater av cupboard, beer fridge, blankets etc.

Anyway. PIC TIME grin









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#402924 - 04/11/14 08:40 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada

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#402925 - 04/11/14 08:50 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
AlaskanAVGuy Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/01/14
Posts: 72
Nice looking dedicated Home Theater space i'm envious. May I ask slightly off topic what equipment your gonna be using in that gem? Or link me to another post if you've already talked about this...


Edited by AlaskanAVGuy (04/11/14 08:51 PM)
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#402931 - 04/12/14 12:54 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
Beautiful drawings, beautiful space. Wishing you many happy hours there with your loved ones.
_________________________
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#402947 - 04/12/14 10:42 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Thanks for the encouragement guys!

Admittedly, I am going a little OCD with the planning. I went through so many iterations in my last space that I lost track. Learned a lot from it and now I'm ready to create a proper space for the fam that looks a little less mad scientist...... laugh


Lighting ideas?

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#402990 - 04/13/14 10:33 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
that looks a little less mad scientist...... laugh

Lighting ideas?

Hey, what's wrong with mad scientist?

I know many people have gone with the less expensive pot lights, but we opted for on wall sconces in our room. We had a difficult spot for lighting on an angled wall but a friend who was a lighting wholesalesman found us something that worked perfect.
All are dimmable of course.

See old photos here:



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"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#402994 - 04/13/14 11:05 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Holy blanks batman! smile

Must be prewire central there.

Your lights are great, i like how you mixed spots with diffuse lighting in the same space. Those spots would look great if i wanted to light the media stand at the rear of the room.

Noted! smile

On a frustrating note, our sectional was delivered yesterday and wouldn't go down the stairs..... We bought it pre constuction to take advantage of a great sale. Looking for seating now too..... That can come later though.

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#402996 - 04/13/14 11:26 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Holy blanks batman! smile

Must be prewire central there.


The room was setup to deliver 7.x surround sound in two directions so yes, some pre-wiring indeed. I never did add in an ethernet line though as i figured wireless options would become available by the time i cared much about providing a net based application in the room.

We still have yet to add the other 2 rear surrounds. I partly stopped b/c i had contemplated adding surrounds in the newer wood veneers but then if i did that, it would start a cascade effect for having to replace the rest of the Axiom system with the same wood veneers.
That and the fact i have an older AVR which only does 6.1 at the moment.

The room is slated for some updating but not until we finish reno in the kitchen and focus on a newer family vehicle.
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#403126 - 04/15/14 02:43 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
stoudtlr Offline
buff

Registered: 03/24/14
Posts: 43
The on wall sconces are really nice, but I was one of the many that just opted for the cheaper pot lights. With drop ceiling they are super easy to wire and mount too.
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#403129 - 04/15/14 03:19 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
One of these days I will sit down when I have some time and write a nice long reply. For lights, I went with small can lights around the soffit (you could do the same along the edge of the ceiling, or even go with ones spread throughout the room). We then added 3 wall sconces (don't get those cheapo "paintable" kind. Spend $10+ more and get something with some metal, or glass, or both.

Biggest thing is getting them on dimmers... Notice, that is plural. Set up at LEAST 2 zones in the theater. In my V3.0, we had can lights throughout the room, but the half closest to the screen was on a different dimmer than the back half where we sat. Then we could eat dinner and see what we were eating, and not have lights on right above the screen (even if they were only at 25% thanks to the dimmer).

In my current space, since the wall sconces are in the back half of the theater, but the small can lights go all along the side and back walls (in the soffits), they are on their own dimmer. Then, if we are eating in the theater, I turn the can lights all the way off, and the wall sconces to about 25% and it works perfect.

Get remote controlled dimmers too. I went with two Lutron IR dimmers. Press the paddle up once and it goes to whatever pre-set lighting level you want, press it twice and it is on at 100%, press it up a third time and it is back to the pre-set dimmer level, press it down and it is off (all with a nice slow fade). On my remote I have 1 preset for eating (it is the default preset on the dimmers themselves. One I set to the sconces slightly on, and on the other dimmer it is at like 1% (as close to off as possible). Then the remote just sends the signal to put both dimmers to their preset, and it is perfect for eating. I have another preset on my remote that goes to the "eating" level, and then does a +2 on both, this is more for having a dim space, but not fully dark for when waiting for the wife and kids to come into the room.

Works great, and allows to good lighting control.

Oh, and we don't eat dinner down there THAT much, but we do use the presets a lot.

EDIT: Put at least 1 CAT6 cable drop into the room. There are some devices that can connect to the internet wirelessly, but if you want to stream video either from the internet or from a media server/computer in the house, you will want/need a wired connection. I know, you may not have plans for that now, but I didn't plan on having a HTPC in my room either when I dropped the CAT6 cables in. One all the way back to my internet connection point in my house. This was just for being able to do firmware updates originally for all of my equipment. I am glad I did, otherwise I would have had a really hard time adding it later so that I can stream my 72GB Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings, or the even larger sequels. Even smaller file size movies would choke at even high quality across wireless, and I ended up wanting exact same playback (or better) with my HTPC, so that means no compression at all.

monoprice.com will hook you up with cheap network cable. Buy longer than you need...


Edited by nickbuol (04/15/14 03:27 PM)
Edit Reason: Added CAT6 comments
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#403130 - 04/15/14 05:42 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Thanks Guys,

I have been looking into the lutron maestro IR dimmers. Are these the ones you have? I have a harmony remote I would use them with.

I know sconces are happening for sure, but cant decide on soffit pots or just two overhead lights for cleaning up in the space etc. Pots are cheap and eat up no headroom so that might be an option.

This is the kind of lighting my better half prefers:



I like the idea of having sconces and overheads on seperate dimmers for sure. I would likely put the rope lights on the same dimmer as the sconces. I'd wire it so all neutrals started at the switch box to have flexibility later I guess.

I will likely run cat6 to the a/v rack into a switch and split from there I guess. They are cheap nowadays. I'm planning on a 1 1/4 conduit run to the center of the front wall for feeding speakers behind the screen wall. I'll pull straight to the terminals and bypass wall plates wherever I can. The surrounds may also be piped, havent decided yet. Projector for sure with 1 1/4.

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#403132 - 04/15/14 06:43 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
JBG Offline
devotee

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 406
yes the lutron works well with my harmony 1100.. actually I have 2 lutrons that are controlled with the remote

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#403133 - 04/15/14 06:53 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
I am using the Harmony One with mine without issues.

Note, I would control the rope light differently. Separate switch/dimmer...

Here is why:
When you want the cool effect of the rope light, but super dim, you are still going to have light directly above your screen (even with a soffit, etc). This can either wash out the image or mess with the contrast a lot as you eyes now have another light emitting into your eyes. Dark scenes in movies will either be washed out a little or in contrast to the rope light (even on dim) lose dark detail.

An extra dimmer is cheap in the scheme of things, and really the rope light is best left off anyway for during a movie.

My color changing LED rope light doesn't even go over the screen (it goes down the side soffits and across the back) and I never leave it on for during a movie.
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#403135 - 04/15/14 07:18 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Is there a dip switch or something on the lutron units to give them different IR codes. Ie command individually? 3 gang box sounds like where I'll end up. Sconces, ropes and overheads/pots controlled individually.

The soffit will be "8" shaped to conceal a beam in the center if the room. The front of the soffit will be behind the screen wall when done. I will likely go with a yellow or warm light if I can find some dimmable leds that dont need a transformer for every 20' or so. Maybe incandescent otherwise.

Many thanks btw for your input all. Appreciated! smile

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#403139 - 04/15/14 07:44 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
You guys.

I give up.

You're so far ahead of where I'll ever be, that I'm considering just watching everything on my phone and listening through earbuds from now on.

So, so cool.
_________________________
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#403143 - 04/15/14 08:27 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
JBG Offline
devotee

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 406
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Is there a dip switch or something on the lutron units to give them different IR codes. Ie command individually? 3 gang box sounds like where I'll end up. Sconces, ropes and overheads/pots controlled individually.

The soffit will be "8" shaped to conceal a beam in the center if the room. The front of the soffit will be behind the screen wall when done. I will likely go with a yellow or warm light if I can find some dimmable leds that dont need a transformer for every 20' or so. Maybe incandescent otherwise.

Many thanks btw for your input all. Appreciated! smile


None of that I know of.. I have two lutron switches because of the 2 pot lights banks.. they are controlled simultaneously from the harmony remote, when I turn on an activity they come all on then go to the fav preset of the lutron switch... one is set on half dim and the other off.. so I belive it would work for the application you are looking for... the only problem I have is to have the lights turn on when I ask the harmony to turn everything off..

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#403148 - 04/15/14 09:32 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Yeah, if your remote send a "full on" signal to one, then they all get it. If you send the "preset" signal, then they all go to their preset (which CAN be set different per switch), but not independently controlled.

I can't remember if it was Lutron or another brand, but someone makes an additional unit that allows you to set up a number of "scenes" and you can connect multiple dimmers to it.
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#403149 - 04/15/14 09:36 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
OK. Found it. Leviton Vizia RF+ or possibly even better is the Z Wave...

I found this on the Z Wave (also mentions some other products too):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1469044/multiple-dimmer-switch-remote-control

Just don't yell at me if you don't like the price.
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#403151 - 04/15/14 11:54 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
I could stand the overheads on a manual dimmer for entry/exit and general use. 2 lutron units could be used as scene lighting during movies as you have mentioned with preset dim levels. Pretty slick and user friendly.

Also

There will be a smart relay controlling a room exhaust fan off of my AVR trigger, so likely I can program it to open the main overhead lighting when BD input is selected. Makeshift automation, but works.

So, come in room, turn on main light switch.

Hit all on in harmony and sconces and ropes come on with gear.

Select watch movie (BD) and mains lights turn off (relay trigger) and lutrons dim down.

I'd set it up so "play" dims to off and "pause" or "stop" dims to preset.

Turning all off would return the relay to N/C state and main overheads would come back on. Sconces and ropes off.

This is already getting fun!

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#403152 - 04/16/14 12:13 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
It has to be bulletproof simple for when the room is used when I'm not around.

A grafik eye would be cool, but holy expensive!

Lutron + harmony seems like the answer so far.

I checked out the z-wave stuff and it looks cool as well. Price will decide I'm sure.

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#403176 - 04/16/14 06:39 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
NOTE: Do yourself a huge favor and have a spot for your remote (with power for charging) close to the light switches!!!

I wish REALLY BADLY that I had done this. Instead, I have to walk to the back of the room by my equipment rack, grab the remote (and now I am standing where I can't hit the "Watch a Movie" button and have everything turn on), then walk to my seat, sit down, point the remote at the screen (to bounce the signal) and turn things on.

Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.
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#403179 - 04/16/14 07:21 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: nickbuol]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: nickbuol

Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.

Or you could do something crazy like just turning on the light switch with your finger at the door.
A ridiculous idea, i know.
smirk
_________________________
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#403183 - 04/16/14 07:57 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: chesseroo]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: nickbuol

Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.

Or you could do something crazy like just turning on the light switch with your finger at the door.
A ridiculous idea, i know.
smirk


You may have missed my point. I DO hit the light switch, but to turn on the gear in the room, I have to walk to the back of the room, literally the furthest spot away from the door. That is why I would want it need the door/light switch area. HE was saying that he wanted to turn everything on (including the lights) from the remote. wink
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#403189 - 04/16/14 10:42 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Yep, will have a cubby above the light switches. Great idea. Keep em coming!

Chess, finger switches are sooooo 1999. Lol. We will have the option for both cases with the lutron units. smile

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#403190 - 04/16/14 10:54 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Hey Nick, you ever think of a cool looking frame with velcro and putting a velcro sticker on the back of your remote? I guess that doesnt solve the charging situation though.

I opted for the 650 after I found out a friend had issues with the batts after a year with his harmony one.

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#403194 - 04/16/14 11:57 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Hansang Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 578
Loc: New York
Once you go RF, there's no going back!!!! Love my MX900!
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Denon 3808, EPIC80/500 Speakers

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#403367 - 04/20/14 01:58 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: chesseroo]
JBG Offline
devotee

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 406
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: nickbuol

Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.

Or you could do something crazy like just turning on the light switch with your finger at the door.
A ridiculous idea, i know.
smirk


hahahaha good one!

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#403375 - 04/20/14 09:31 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: JBG]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: JBG
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: nickbuol

Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.

Or you could do something crazy like just turning on the light switch with your finger at the door.
A ridiculous idea, i know.
smirk


hahahaha good one!


None of you saw my post BEFORE the above quoted posts? Here is what I put....

Originally Posted By: nickbuol

You may have missed my point. I DO hit the light switch, but to turn on the gear in the room, I have to walk to the back of the room, literally the furthest spot away from the door. That is why I would want it need the door/light switch area. HE was saying that he wanted to turn everything on (including the lights) from the remote. wink
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#403382 - 04/21/14 12:07 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Its a great touch to have lighting on a remote. When lighting commands are integrated with gear commands it is really a wowing affect. A cheap way to make an install feel professional.

The units mentioned in this thread can be retrofitted to any exising installation. You just have to watch for 2 wire or 3 wire requirements for install. The lutron units are affordable at $50 or so. Great value I think.

I like the idea of an RF remote, especially for locating gear out of sight. I can look at one down the road when all the other tweaks are exhausted. smile

A little ingenuity keeps the hobby fresh and fun smile command recliners interlocked with lighting would really be boss! grin but not gonna happen in my space.

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#403653 - 04/29/14 08:35 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Here in our place now. Stuff arrived safe and sound. The space will actally be a little smaller than originally thought, but still a healthy 14.5 x 22 x 8 estimated when complete. Have to alter drawings and consult with an engineer to remove a support post. Then relocate a heating oil tank to the garage. Work ahead just to get to the framing stages! The post on the partially demoed wall corner is the make or break. Fingers crossed. Oh well. So far:


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#403657 - 04/30/14 01:48 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1049
Post=good
Remove post=bad
Point loads are your friend.


Edited by brwsaw (04/30/14 01:50 AM)
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#403663 - 04/30/14 09:29 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Here in our place now. Stuff arrived safe and sound. The space will actally be a little smaller than originally thought, but still a healthy 14.5 x 22 x 8 estimated when complete. Have to alter drawings and consult with an engineer to remove a support post. Then relocate a heating oil tank to the garage. Work ahead just to get to the framing stages! The post on the partially demoed wall corner is the make or break. Fingers crossed. Oh well. So far:



If you bring in a structural engineer they will say "No. You cannot just remove that post." I have heard of people trying to add more to an existing beam to make it beefier, but there are horror stories about that too if not done exactly right. The best recommendation for reducing/eliminating some posts is replacing the beam with a steel one. This is no minor undertaking.

Your best bet is to bring in an expert as you planned, and tell them what you are trying to accomplish. They will give you the best advice on how to make it happy. It probably won't be cheap though. Just saying that now so that your expectations are set.
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#403666 - 04/30/14 10:05 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Sorry guys, didnt make it clear.

An engineer will determine how to accomplish this. My preference is to sink an LVL into the floor space to eliminate the protruding beam altogether. We are also facing the likelihood of beefing up the neighboring footing.

We bought this house with the basement space as a requirement. This post would be dead center in the room. Maybe military invisible paint?

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#403670 - 04/30/14 11:56 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Hmmm.... Interesting...
How would the LVL beam go up into the floor joists without compromising the structural integrity of the joist system? I've never heard of something like that, and it certainly would have been awesome for some of the basements I've finished in the past.
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#403671 - 04/30/14 12:17 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Like this. Have to use right hangers too. Seems promising perhaps.


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#403672 - 04/30/14 02:04 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1049
Cha-ching!!!
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#403676 - 04/30/14 02:38 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Wow. I wondered if that is what you were looking into.
Those aren't up to code here. I think that it is just a city code though. They are sticklers about a lot of stuff where i live. Here, the floor joists must have a beam *under* them.

I've heard that pretty much everywhere allows you to do this for ceilings in main living areas where there is just an attic above it. For most homes though, that isn't needed since the roof trusses are also the ceiling "joists" anymore.

A lot of work is involved to do go this route. You would need to support each and every floor joist on both sides of where the current beam is, and then you would need to cut out (as precisely as possible) where you want the beam to go up in to. Then put the beam up, attach the hangers, and remove the temporary supports.

Here is a link with some pictures at the end showing how it can be done.
Installing a load bearing beam

If you can somehow live with a beam (or end up having to live with one for code requirements), you could put a metal beam right next to the current beam, get it supported with poles (obviously a lot further apart than your current ones and would need new footings), and then remove the current poles and beam. Would solve the pole issue probably, be less work, and probably less cost that all of the materials and labor to do it the other way.

I moved a 12 foot beam in my current house to accomplish what you are thinking with the joist hangers. I didn't want it right above where my wet bar was supposed to go. I ended up turning my home theater wall into a load bearing wall that was about 3 feet to one side of the beam. I made another temp wall (with studs right under the each floor joist), and then moved my wall beam over 3 feet away from the theater. There is duct work right in that area, so now it just became a part of that framing. Obviously I built up supports for each end, but they ended up inside what were to become walls and thus never be seen.

For the other beam in the basement that ran about 20-25 feet, I just lined up a wall with it to be a part of our office and bathroom.

I love the look you are going for without a visible beam, but unfortunately for you your beam is right in the middle of the basement.
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#403677 - 04/30/14 02:39 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Smashy smashy! Opening up.


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#403678 - 04/30/14 02:53 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: nickbuol]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Nick,

I have no idea if I'll be able to swing it here either. I dont even know what day garbage day is yet so I have to do some homework. Ha! smile Would be better for feng shui for sure.

My father in law does this stuff for a living and we work well together. Should be alright from that end. We are planning to brick over the windows in the room as well as inject a cranky crack we found in the foundation wall. I've read too many build and tear apart threads.....

Including myself, we are pretty trades oriented and this should be a pretty fun build. Exciting! Its nice when the rest of the family is bringing up the basement plans ahead of me. I'm playing coy so it seems like they are urging it on. So far so good. grin

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#403681 - 04/30/14 04:08 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Take lots of pictures. Always good to have before and after documentation, plus good for whenever you end up selling the house so that you can show that you fixed the cracks. I fixed a few foundation cracks and made sure that I showed that it was done very well. It looked just like the one that the professionals did before we bought the house. It is actually pretty easy and just adds piece of mind.

Good luck with whatever you do. I didn't mean to come across as a downer, but so many times I see people getting their hopes up on things just to have them not have the skills or understanding to do it right. It sounds like you are going to be just fine once you find out what you can do about those beams.
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#403685 - 04/30/14 05:06 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
No sweat. Its good to have people like you who have been and done to keep my feet on the ground! smile Its great input.

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#403815 - 05/03/14 03:01 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Dump runs dump runs....... Demo complete.

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#404028 - 05/09/14 02:45 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
MichaelTrottar Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/10/13
Posts: 84
I like the concept of an RF distant, especially for finding equipment out of vision. I can look at one in the future when all the other modifications are tired.
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#404050 - 05/10/14 10:34 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Waiting on calculations from engineer. LVL likely! Too cool. grin

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#404566 - 05/23/14 07:51 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Ok, so three beam options exist to remove the post.

1. Bolt C channel steel along both sides of the existing beam.
Pros- easiest option, cheapest at under 500$ Done in few hours.
Cons- beam still keeps its current protrusion into the headroom of the space.

2. 4 2x11 LVLs sandwiched together and sunk into the floor joist.
Pros- beam now protrudes only 3" into headroom of space.
Cons- more work and higher cost of approx 1000$

3. 8"x8" I Beam sunk into joist space with 2x8 laminated on top to hang floor joist from.
Pros- beam protrudes 1.5"' slightly less.
Cons- most work and lifting involved (over 400 lbs). Most expensive option at around 1200$ Most work to retrofit into current beam foundation pocket.

All three options allow the removal of the post and are suggested by an engineer as suitable choices. What should I do? What would you pick?


Edited by Serenity_Now (05/23/14 08:20 PM)
Edit Reason: Floor 8", not 10"

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#404567 - 05/23/14 08:15 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1190
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Option 3 and don't look back. A post in the room is such a detractor to the whole room.
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I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#404568 - 05/23/14 08:24 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
I rechecked the plan and option 3 results in a 1.5" beam protrusion actually. Still better than 3". But worth the extra headache.... Dunno.

I Beam spec'd is 448lbs. Just getting it down there will be a bear.

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#404572 - 05/23/14 09:57 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
I rechecked the plan and option 3 results in a 1.5" beam protrusion actually. Still better than 3". But worth the extra headache.... Dunno.

I Beam spec'd is 448lbs. Just getting it down there will be a bear.

Mike Holmes says do it once, do it right.

So i hear.
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#404581 - 05/23/14 11:50 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1049
Crazy cheap
Congrats
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#404596 - 05/24/14 09:43 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
I had no idea on the cost until we went through an engineer. Happily surprised.

I guess where most people would encounter thousands of dollars is hiring the entire process out and working in a finished space. Putting it all back together when removing a finished wall can be costly. Luckily its just a concrete hole so far.

Option 1 is out for sure. Deciding between 2 and 3. Option 2 is attractive because it will be easy to relocate the electrical to the bottom of the joist neighboring the LVLs and have a small bulkhead to cover it up.

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#407035 - 09/05/14 03:35 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Project was on hold for a bit.... due to wedding and "preparing for house guests". Stupid painting. Anyway, back to the important stuff! grin

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#407036 - 09/05/14 03:49 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
YAY!
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#407067 - 09/07/14 10:24 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Ok updates.

Scored a beer fridge from the wedding. Cool!

Plumbing in basement ceiling moved. Still need to have an engineer come to site to see the pre work state and confirm methods in person. LVL sunk into joist space is the goal still. Basement foundation crack still needs to be fixed.

After hurricane arthur gave the island a bit of a kicking, I realized how a UPS would probably be a good Idea.

Winter is coming....

I ended up getting a Double conversion online system that feeds my living room gear, Hifi and soon the HT. It is a 20A unit that seems pretty good so far. Probably overkill, but hey, thats part of the fun and madness of our hobby. laugh A cool feature is it gives a live VA reading on loads connected. No more wondering how much stuff draws when in use.

It is located in the mechanical room and acts as a hub for homeruns I fished into the upstairs walls. I plan to use it in the HT as well for the projector, AVR and Amplifier feeds. Capacity shouldn't be an issue unless all 3 systems are running at the same time. Unlikely.

After the storm the neighbor was cutting up a downed tree with an electrical chainsaw in their yard. The lights in my house would dim every time the machine triggered. Can you say volt sag?! crazy

2-5 second power outages and silly voltage fluctuations are common during storms here I guess.

"No Can do" Hall and Oates would say.



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#407068 - 09/07/14 10:32 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
I also found a good vid that explains the process of installing Roxul and hat channel to soundproof/isolate a space. Thought I would share.



Ceiling spaces. pretty much the same but with acoustic sealant applied to penetrations.


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#407184 - 09/13/14 07:41 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Thanks to Nick's hard work covering cedia for us I'm going to ask for opinions on running future wires for ceiling mounted direct radiators in the mentioned square pattern.

This would yield 7.2.4 "connections" for the distant future acoording to current prices of processors.

Future proofing is a speculative thing due to the fickle nature of electronics trends. With the prescribed "death" of bluray I keep reading about looming, is Atmos a reality for mainstream consumers? What to do?


Krimini!

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#407189 - 09/13/14 02:05 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Engineer visited! Column removal approved. Waiting on specifics in engineered plan. Should recieve docs in a week or so.

Foundation repair scheduled for later next week. Inspected and repairs are "an easy fix."


Now, time to pony up to sub trades.... Poo! crazy


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#407192 - 09/13/14 10:32 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now

Future proofing is a speculative thing due to the fickle nature of electronics trends. With the prescribed "death" of bluray I keep reading about looming, is Atmos a reality for mainstream consumers? What to do?

I can't say i've heard about death of Bluray, unless this is a prelude to the new 4k images and a new form of DVD to hold 4k data. However, being truly realistic, of every single person i know around me, neighbors, friends, hockey teamates, etc. i am one of only TWO people to have a 'high' quality 5.1 home theatre system. I don't know of a single person that owns more than one subwoofer nor do i know of anyone who has a TV larger than 50".

Atmos may be coming but keeping up with the Joneses? For over a decade now we already surpassed the Joneses, the Smiths, the Browns, ....
A 5.1 system is still very much the mainstream if not the dream system for most folk. What the electronics can do is advancing fast, but most people can't afford to keep up with, or even enter into the basics of a complete 5.1 home theatre IMO. How much are these new advances even being used?
Heck, i still own a 2002 Onkyo and only now am having some thoughts about changing out the 12 year old 50" Toshiba RPTV for a flatscreen and swapping out the AVR.
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"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#407197 - 09/14/14 06:32 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Can you enjoy HD audio formats over the onkyo? (dolbytrue hd, dts master etc)

If not, definitely time to upgrade. I know what you are saying about the joneses completely. Having moved to PEI, a "good" system here is a HTIB to most.

All my purchases are off island now for this sort of thing. High end audio or reference sound is at best understood here as "it pounds!" from my coworkers.... laugh. This is in regards to their samsung htib, of course. "1800watts!"

Ok, I sound like a snot.

The other day I was asked what kind of soundbar I would recommend to pair with a $2K samsung smart tv someone had. I told them they should be looking into the pioneer designed by Andrew Jones. I think they ended up grabbing a $150 walmart jobber.

Thank god for the internet! Where an audio nerd can find others. grin

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#407201 - 09/14/14 04:03 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Can you enjoy HD audio formats over the onkyo? (dolbytrue hd, dts master etc)

But why do i need those specific formats?
DD 5.1 won't sound any different quality-wise.
I don't have a 6.1, 6.2, etc. system so the extra channels that come with those formats are irrelevant, and being more of an audio gearhead than most folks, this proves my point.

A lot of people don't even have a quality 5.1 system to begin with. Most i know that get into the surround sound buy a small HTIB setup and certainly have no plans to get more than that.

At some point i personally do plan to add two rear surround channels and another subwoofer for a 7.2 system, but that is my limit. Until i get to that point, the only limitation i have with my 12 year old Onkyo AVR is it does not have HDMI. However with the recent purchase of an Oppo bluray player which has both HDMI and component video out connections, i can continue to use the Onkyo for awhile longer yet.
Although i love the idea of getting a newer, larger flatscreen TV (another topic as to why i'm not atm), i was annoyed that to get a bluray functioning i may almost have need to buy a new TV and a new AVR!
So for a $300 bluray player i need to get/replace over $3k in new electronics??!!!

The big killer IMO for new home a/v electronics will come in connection types. They keep coming out with new standards and new connections almost every other year it seems.
A tv that could last 15 to 20 years is now almost defunct after 10 because it doesn't have newer connection types and/or a newer unit may not still have older connection types such that anyone replacing a broken DVDp for example, might be faced with having to buy a whole new TV as well.
Most consumers aren't happy with being pushed into that narrow choice.
It costs alot even at the lower prices at which one can buy a TV today. Replacing electronics at that pace is just stupidity.

Forward thinking; when we bought our TV back in 2002 we at least made sure it had component video in and 1080i resolution capable such that today, we do have a functioning large screen HD tv. Thankfully the brand makers didn't cut component video inputs off at the knees too quickly after HDMI was introduced or that TV would have had to disappear a long time ago.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#407203 - 09/14/14 04:44 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: chesseroo]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Can you enjoy HD audio formats over the onkyo? (dolbytrue hd, dts master etc)

But why do i need those specific formats?
DD 5.1 won't sound any different quality-wise.


No offense, but you so crazy!

Are we talking downmixed hd to dd5.1? or DVD audio tracks vs bluray tracks?

Take Sin City, dd5.1 vs DTS on the same DVD disc. Same disc, formats sound different.

Or Tenacious D, or many others. If the tracks on a single disc dont match, how can we reason the HD mix would be the same?

When they are mixed for HD audio and channels, they sound much better.

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#407206 - 09/14/14 05:19 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now

No offense, but you so crazy!

Are we talking downmixed hd to dd5.1? or DVD audio tracks vs bluray tracks?

Take Sin City, dd5.1 vs DTS on the same DVD disc. Same disc, formats sound different.

Or Tenacious D, or many others. If the tracks on a single disc dont match, how can we reason the HD mix would be the same?

When they are mixed for HD audio and channels, they sound much better.


That's not the first time someone called me crazy. I've really lost track at this stage in life.

This situation is where the term "quality" must be clearly defined and it is hard to do so since the sound mix of one format vs. another can vary even with the same material on the same disc. However, try to remain objective when you evaluate the sound not for what you prefer, but for what you can hear (technical vs. subjective).
Are the vocals sibilant on one mix but not another?
Is bass heavier on one mix vs the other?
Can you hear the raspy strum on guitar strings in both mixes?
etc.
AND, most importantly, are these artifacts reproduced consistently with other material on other discs in exactly the same way?
i.e does a DVD-audio mix always sound more bassy than its DD 5.1 counterpart on 10, 20, 30 different discs?
I think you will find that these types of 'quality' differences do not reproduce consistently for one format such that it could be labeled as 'lesser quality'.

Reproduce the sound quality differences then decide if one can be deemed a better quality than another, but don't assume that a 6.1 True HD DD mix somehow is higher quality than a DD 5.1 mix. The technical quality at which these mixes are produced already go beyond that which the human ear can detect from a mechanistic, engineering perspective.
We are not dogs or bats. Human hearing capability is much more limited.

All that being said, yes, i absolutely agree that a DD 5.1 mix will sound 'different' from a DVD-audio track on the exact same disc. I've tested this in the past with an A/B switch method and demonstrated this very difference with people who came to audition the Axioms. I have tried 3 different DVD-audio discs with their DD 5.1 tracks on the same discs and reproduced what i perceive as differences in the formats, but both are of equal (and very high) quality.

I preferred the sound of the dvd-audio mix but not because i thought it sounded more clear, or accurate, etc. I chose it because i found the soundstage was more up at the front vs. the DD 5.1 mix of the same material which moved the soundstage more overhead, a bit more immersive (the more "surround sound" type of sound).
To me, i described the differences in the mixes as follows:
DVD-A sounded like i was sitting in the first couple of rows of a concert.
DD 5.1 sounded like i was onstage somewhere in the middle of the band/orchestra.

I've also tested (long ago), DD 5.1 vs DTS on the same disc. This was not an instantaneous A/B test though and offhand i recall thinking that DTS really reduced the SPL for some reason so i ignored using it ever again.

Different does not equate to higher quality.
Some people may prefer one mix over another, sure, but that does not define it as a technical quality difference vs.a personal preference likely related to the variation during the sound mix process.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#407207 - 09/14/14 05:54 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Agreed. I typically prefer the Bluray HD mixes of movie soundtracks when comparing them to their DVD counterparts. I dont know if I would be capable of listening to a DD5.1 track on a bluray when its HD counterpart is there waiting. I would feel dirty. laugh

I believe the newer batmans and new daniel craig bond films on bluray include both the non and HD versions of the soundtrack. I believe oblivion does as well. Anyway, these are good examples of films which would have been mastered for HD sound and likely good candidates for a DD/DTS vs HD counterpart test. I mention these as they are fairly ubiquitous and anyone can run the test for themselves.

Homework assignment for everyone willing. smile

I predict in every case the HD track is prefered.

I would agree that a DVD could potentially sound even better than its Bluray version technically, but in my experience this has never been the case. I dont think DD5.1 or DTS tracks got the same "love" when the studio sound master folks make the decisions which determine the final experience. This may be less the case now with newer releases, since a DVD soundtrack is likely a lossy version of the HD counterpart, but when back catalog movies are released and remixed for HD sound on Bluray, the differences can be startling. Holy run on sentence.

Btw, a lower SPL between DTS vs DD5.1 tracks could be an artifact of a component misreading or omitting the dynamic range parameters within the soundtrack from what I understand. If one sounded louder than the other, it could also have meant that track had more dynamic compression applied by the processor or during the studio mix.

I like this exchange. smile

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#407216 - 09/15/14 08:02 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6832
Loc: PEI, Canada
Chess, you're crazy!!!
Well, not really, I just felt like I was missing out.

I know I have a particular concert Bluray home that the HD format is actually way less enjoyable than the DD5.1. Damn it, I can't remember which one it is though. I recall the HD version really brought forward the sibilant aspect of the lead vocals.

From a technical standpoint, the HD version was probably doing it's job and being more accurate. However, the resulting accuracy created something that really bugged me.

In this case, you could have an interesting argument. Is it the responsibility of the producer/mixer to make it as accurate as possible, should they remove unwanted qualities, even if it is less accurate or do you just blame the source (artists/sound gear.)

In short, you are both right but sometimes accuracy does indeed come with a price.
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#407217 - 09/15/14 11:46 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Perhaps someone can try to explain how a DD 5.1 format is not "HD".

It's a crazy thought, i know.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#407220 - 09/15/14 12:08 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Short answer:
DD5.1 is compressed.... DTS-Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are not.

Ok, technically DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD ARE compressed, but they are more like a .zip file. extract the data from that file and you get the full lossless (uncompressed) audio in perfect form. DD5.1 is compressed much like an .mp3 is compressed. It literally throws away a lot of data to save space. Now, the problem is that just like some .mp3 files, the level of compression can vary from one source to another.

In the movie sound industry, HD audio is reserved for uncompressed or lossless audio like DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD, and DD5.1 is just considered a sub-par audio track that is missing a lot of information. It is still surround sound, but it is like saying that the DVD that the DD5.1 audio is on is HD when comparing the DVD to a blu-ray which is in HD.

Now, do I really care what you enjoy? Heck no. Play what you want and enjoy it. You are missing out on what you *could* hear, but you seem fine with what you *currently* hear and who am I to spend your money on something that you don't think that you need.
_________________________
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#407225 - 09/15/14 02:34 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: nickbuol]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
DD5.1 is compressed much like an .mp3 is compressed.

Indeed Nick you have described a technical difference between the formats but i was questioning more the subjective term "high definition" sound.

DD 5.1 is not unlike a mp3 at >500 kbps (DVD audio is rated for a similar bitrate although this is only one metric of quality among the formats). I doubt anyone has been able to tell the difference between the compression and non-compressed versions at such a high sampling rate.

Compression does not equate to a loss in audio quality if it can't be distinguished by the human ear anyway.
There is another similar discussion at the bluray forums which parallels this one.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159982
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#407227 - 09/15/14 02:47 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Chess, if you have an oppo you may be able to use the multichannel analog outputs into your avr. You can then use the oppo for HD audio decoding and your avr will basically become just an amplifier.

You didnt mention which oppo you purchased, but if it is the 103 or higher, it has channel controls like distance and spl trim level built in. It may afford you more features than your onkyo currently offers in terms of system setup parameters. Not sure about the 83 or 93 though.

You can also use the HDMI out at the same time for video only. This means when your tv is replaced, you can bypass your avr for video and go straight to the tv from the oppo. The newer oppos also have video inputs for hdmi and can act as a switcher and scaler. I believe they will also strip the audio from inputs and output over analog to your amp as well.

Good ole oppo! smile

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#407229 - 09/15/14 04:33 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: chesseroo]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
DD5.1 is compressed much like an .mp3 is compressed.

Indeed Nick you have described a technical difference between the formats but i was questioning more the subjective term "high definition" sound.

DD 5.1 is not unlike a mp3 at >500 kbps (DVD audio is rated for a similar bitrate although this is only one metric of quality among the formats). I doubt anyone has been able to tell the difference between the compression and non-compressed versions at such a high sampling rate.

Compression does not equate to a loss in audio quality if it can't be distinguished by the human ear anyway.
There is another similar discussion at the bluray forums which parallels this one.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159982



Understood...

I generally steer away from Dolby TrueHD whenever there is a DTS-MA track, and most of the blu-rays default to DTS-MA as *the* track of preference. Maybe that is why I hear such a big difference. The DTS mix on DVD was always more dynamic than the DD5.1, so when they put it into a lossless format on blu-ray, it still sounds light years better than DD5.1.

I will admit, since we are all being honest here, that I have never done an A/B comparison between a DD5.1 DVD track and the Dolby TrueHD track for the same movie on blu-ray.

You may have challenged me to give it a shot tonight.

One thing to keep in mind is that my gear and your gear are going to have different variables, heck, I have an acoustically treated room that may be the biggest variable in hearing a difference or not. If a room destroys upper frequencies or has nulls in the low end bass, that would suck up any real clarity or bass extension that would would get from a lossless audio track.

Then again, some people have better hearing than others. Even though my wife is younger than me, I hear a lot more detail than she does, but not as much as my teenage kids.

I will see if I still have a DVD of something that I also have on blu-ray, but if not, I will just manually switch between the two Dolby tracks from the same blu-ray and report back tonight. The trick will be to find a blu-ray with Dolby TrueHD on it since most studios went with DTS-MA as the default for blu-ray and DTS in general is more "dynamic" than Dolby, so that wouldn't be a good comparison.
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#407260 - 09/16/14 01:39 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5871
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Give Bose a chance. For $2000, they'll come up with a 20 mini cube system that will leave you wanting to rip the ears right off of your head.

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#407263 - 09/16/14 03:21 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Oil tank moved! What a difference it makes to the flow of the space. Starting to visualize the room size now. Going from previous room of 12x17 to 15x22 or so. Woohoo! grin

The offending column is the unpainted one. Hopefully engineering report later this week for removal and LVL install.

I have to stop the household habit of "just put it in the basement for now." Its starting to become a storage morgue down there..... sick


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#407266 - 09/16/14 06:05 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Sounds like my attic. Just put ________ up there.

I dread the day that we ever move and I have to haul all of that crap down from the attic.

Sometimes I wish that I could get a dumpster delivered and just start cleanup out crap.

As for the space, how far is it from the "offending" post to the wall? How far to the next post? LVL can hold quite a good span.
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#407267 - 09/16/14 06:18 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
16ft total, 8 feet each way.

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#407346 - 09/20/14 03:42 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Changes changes.... I'm now not "allowed" to fill in the basement theater room window openings as planned with cinder block. Married life comes with a price. laugh I will still put a plug into the window behind the screen wall. The others will get some decent blinds I guess. Not ideal.

I did convince her that a door on the space is a good idea. I also pointed out an architectural sound absorber hanging in a store and she liked it. Cedar ceiling cloud sorted. Since cedar is such a pretty material, might as well make the back wall a skyline diffuser array with a media shelf integrated. So I lost one and won some. wink



This results in some other minor changes. The soffit idea is dead. No rope lighting around the room perimeter. Sucks. I really covet that look in everyone else's rooms I view for inspiration. ahem Nick.

Since I've been halted by waiting on others (who says engineers aren't timely.....) I've had the opportunity to check out some fabric sites to get ideas for covering acoustic treatments. This lead to a complete overhaul of the room color/texture scheme and the inclusion of Western Red Cedar as the highlight tone for the room. I've always liked the smell and look of cedar accents in spaces. Hopefully this idea will jive with carpet later.

The leading contender for fabric so far is "Grey Ages"



I've also scrapped the idea of having the equipment rack flush in the room space. Instead I will have it mounted in a cabinet outside of the room with an IR repeater module in the screen wall. I've read all over that this improves immersion in the movie. Less lights and counters for distraction I guess.

So far it is still in the conceptual stages, but as far as I am concerned the design phase is over. Any changes now will be running changes as the room is built and dimensions vary slightly. I still have to find sconces that will compliment the fabric panel scheme.

The jury is still out on to be or not to be an early ATMOS adopter. 7.2.4 is attractive for this space according to the early literature. But, as mentioned, Dolby's market share for movie soundtracks seems to be dwindling these days.

The only major issue I can see is a speaker in the walking path immediately entering the room. Hopefully it snugs up to the ceiling without too much coloration.

Here are some pics of the new rendering.







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#407350 - 09/20/14 08:46 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Those are great renders. I initially thought they were photographs, but I was struggling to identify the tower speakers in the first pic.

For the two windows, could you make some kind of shutters with strong hinges and heavy material that did a good job of obscuring the window when closed ? I'm seeing a picture in my head of a soffit around the perimeter with a sort of multi-hinged section combining soffit material and painted wood/drywall over each window so you could open it flat against the ceiling when you wanted windows but fold it back to become part of the soffit & wall when doing the HT thing. Sort of an upside-down appliance garage.

While you're at it, I think I remember seeing "powered speakers" somewhere that moved into position when you dimmed the lights. I bet it wouldn't cost much to put a linear actuator on the surround speaker near the door so it normally sat near the ceiling but moved down when you dimmed the lights.

Not only would you gain convenience when the room was being used for non-movie activities, but you would have never-ending hilarity as people walked into the speaker in the dark.

If you get your soffit & rope lights back I guess you could dimly illuminate the speaker, but where's the fun in that ?


Edited by bridgman (09/20/14 08:49 PM)

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#407358 - 09/21/14 01:34 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1049
Looks good, very nice. Congrats
Having your equipment outside the room lowers the noise floor.
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#407362 - 09/21/14 09:41 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
The renders look nice.

You mentioned the rope lighting around the room. Honestly, it pretty much never gets used anyway.

As for Atmos and the "Dolby market share" at home, with most studios going with DTS-HD Master Audio, I agree. However, DTS is working on their own object based audio similar to Atmos, and there is also AURA 3D (which I don't think will ever get traction since it isn't DTS or Dobly), but like I said, there will be something from DTS within the next year. I would say plan and wire for overhead speakers. Run the cables in the ceiling with plenty of wire, mark where they end up in the ceiling, take measurements, and document their location. Leave plenty up there since you might need to "fish" it to a slightly different location later on. Wire is cheap in the scheme of a room, and even if you never use it, that would be better than wanting it later and not having the wires there at all (like me).

It is amazing how much changed in a couple of years for me. I had to have the equipment rack in my room because of the ease of putting a movie into the blu-ray player (without having to go outside of the theater or something. Now I have a nice HTPC and we almost never use discs any more, so it doesn't matter. I have actually been working a little bit on my theater again to finally get some exhaust venting (done now) and the equipment rack in the back of the room actually built in the space and not having an old stand alone audio furniture piece that never fit into the space taken out. I only need to make 2 more shelves and clean up the cabling and it is done. With that said, every device back there has displays or little LEDs that can be dimmed or turned off. The lights from the devices really aren't a problem at all. I wouldn't want them in the front of the room, and while I did run cabling for a IR repeater system when I build my theater, I don't use it at all. I bounce the IR signal off of the screen and it makes it back to the projector and equipment rack perfectly fine (as long as there is line-of-site, which there is now that I am building the rack the way that I want to.

Just throwing that out. A separate room is better for any noise/heat isolation, but if you much have some equipment in the room, put it in the back and up high enough to not have the IR signal blocked by things like seating, and you will be just fine without a repeat.

Which reminds me. I need to advertise my 2 IR repeater systems. One is a nice Logitech unit, and the other is a slick setup that connects up via your HDMI cable. Anyway, that is another story.
_________________________
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#407363 - 09/21/14 05:27 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Thanks for the kind words. I've always loved the planning aspect of all my hobbies. Figuring stuff out is always half the fun. It's kind of hard not to shoot big. You guys have made some pretty inspirational rooms to follow along with others.

I guess I'll let the rope light scenario go. I'm not going to die on that hill when it comes to trying to convince the wife that escape hatch window panels are plausible. grin It was a great idea that wouldn't have even occured to me.

Another great idea is the motion speaker mount. I totally get it. Kind of like a recessed projector mount. The me a few years ago would have been all over that. Having made a couple of Lumenlab DIY projectors over the years, the wife is tired of frankenstein projects. Probably for the better.

I will scale back the couch from what we were planning for. I have a new render with a new sofa's dimensions in mind. Anyone ever bought a sofa online from www.wayfair.com before?

I think it will be doable. I was hoping for seating for 6. But realistically, it will be just the 2 of us 90% of the time anyway.



Nick, you are absolutely right. I'd be kicking myself later if I didn't at least pull the wire while I had the chance. I'll be sure to add 4 ceiling drops in the squareish pattern at Dolby's site.

It will be a while before I upgrade my receiver to one capable of 11 channels, but I will be prepared for down the road.

Bridgman, the speakers are nondescript in the render by design. They aren't Axioms and I didn't want to make a rude impression here. Axioms were on the table at one time, but when I went shopping for my brother's theater speakers a deal jumped at me I couldn't pass up.

I picked up a package of Mordaunt Short speakers on closeout for about 50% of MSRP. They are fantastic. (For now) I couldn't imagine owning anything else. Until I audition some Axioms in person and get the feel for them I wont know what I'm missing. I did listen to Paradigm studio series speakers, which are often compared to axioms. So I might have an inkling about their flavour.

This is the system I picked up. I opted for 2 floor standers as surrounds at the time because they were such a deal. A year and a half later, I scrambled to get a set of matching bookshelves to make a 7 channel setup. I think I picked up the last "new in box" pair in black in all of Canada out of Montreal. Cutting it close.... laugh 2 SVS sealed subs round out the bunch.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/mordaunt-short-mezzo-6-speaker-system

I don't mind sharing, as I don't think they can be bought anywhere now.

We auditioned a LOT of speakers at all the big box stores and then out of curiosity went to some of the high end shops back in Calgary. I'm sure glad we did. We listened to some uber dollar setups that completely changed my direction in the hobby. My focus went from feature driven bang for buck products to being purely reproduction obsessed.

My brother picked up a high dollar setup that trounces mine on paper. But my OCD about synergy and setup had always left him scratching his head when we compared the end results.

Thus began my acoustics oddyssey... never ending as I'm sure you know from your experiments. Such a fun hobby! Boy I can ramble on.....

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#407364 - 09/21/14 07:13 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Sounds like you're making great progress -- even the annoying details ("ow, my head") are getting solved.

Making the couch shorter is the kind of idea that would never have occurred to me smile

I'll just mention one more option for the windows & soffit -- do a Google image search on "egress window". Basically dig down so you can have a taller window in an enlarged window well with steps, in your case starting below the rim of the soffit. You sell it as a safety thing, of course.

That said, if it's the rope light that matters and the soffit is just a way to contain it, the best rope light solutions I have seen involved a free-form structure built down from the ceiling away from the edges of the room, like what you have at the first reflection point on the ceiling now. Just extend it back, give it a cool shape, and run the lights around the perimeter.

BTW I love that slatted wood look you have at the first reflection point, but wondering if it might reflect a bit too much. Maybe space the slats further apart or cut a "wave" shape into the supports so the surface is rippled ? Maybe extend the structure further back and have variable slat spacing, far apart over the FRP so the absorbing material behind the slats can work, then closer over the listeners ?


Edited by bridgman (09/21/14 07:16 PM)

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#407366 - 09/21/14 08:58 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
I could probably move the ceiling cloud back as far as I like. There will be no direct overhead lighting to compete with for space/shadows. I just have to ensure the position wont conflict with the tentative locations of future ATMOS speakers.

I plan on building the room and placing the speakers before the front wall is built. This way I can adjust and cheat the false wall forward or back as needed. Everything is precalculated to be pretty darn close already so far as I can figure. The program I am using makes it hard to triangulate the ceiling FRP with any accuracy. I have to draw it out on paper I think.

Increasing the spaces between slats is a good idea. I dont want to reject mid to high frequencies. I may also mitre the leading edge at 45 degrees to cheat a little more space in without being visible from the seating locations. Every little bit helps I guess.

See, I knew I wasn't done planning yet..... Will I ever be is the question. wink

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#407367 - 09/21/14 11:18 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
I could probably move the ceiling cloud back as far as I like. There will be no direct overhead lighting to compete with for space/shadows. I just have to ensure the position wont conflict with the tentative locations of future ATMOS speakers.

It just occurred to me that a big cloud-thing in the middle of the ceiling would probably be an ideal place to hide Atmos speakers.

I've been planning for at least 30 years... it's the building part that I'm not so good at smile


Edited by bridgman (09/21/14 11:18 PM)

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#407395 - 09/23/14 01:07 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5871
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I was always of the opinion that a theater room walls needed to be painted flat black. But after looking at these pictures, I'm kind of liking what you've done here.

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#407399 - 09/23/14 06:02 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
I tried to design something that would be as welcoming with the lights on just listening to music too. A good balance I am hoping. Glad you like it so far. smile

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#407481 - 09/28/14 10:22 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Interesting video from Home Theater Geeks that's very germane to this thread. Thought I would share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23aG6pSYok

Lauded home theater designer and constructor Dennis Erskine shares some of this projects and outlook on room design and acoustics. He touches on ATMOS and 4K video technology as well.

A couple of gems I took away from the interview was his notion of being able to bias the bass response by using 2 or more subs balanced to provide a "virtual" subwoofer location. ie. if the sub would be ideally located in the center of the floor, you can create this location by splitting the difference between the actual physical locations and individual gain settings. He states "the experienced typical ideal location for a subwoofer is in a moderate location in the room about 1/3 from each neighboring boundry into the room." He explains how using multiple subs can balance modal issues-- not necessarily smoothing bass response across all listening positions which he refers to as a misnomer. "Smooth bass is not the same as good bass. It only means same bass- good or bad." Very interesting.

Another tidbit I heard and echo again and again is the importance of the room in a design. To paraphrase: "80% of what you are hearing is the room. It is the single most important factor in the system- more so than the speakers themselves." He also favors engineered acoustic products over DIY. Go figure. laugh

He also showed how he used acoustical panels to act as doors for storage cupboards and screen wall access. A great idea for access to the electrical panel and rear of equipment backing into the wall of my planned room.

Oh to be rich enough......

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#407482 - 09/28/14 10:54 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Ok, so three beam options exist to remove the post.

1. Bolt C channel steel along both sides of the existing beam.
Pros- easiest option, cheapest at under 500$ Done in few hours.
Cons- beam still keeps its current protrusion into the headroom of the space.

2. 4 2x11 LVLs sandwiched together and sunk into the floor joist.
Pros- beam now protrudes only 3" into headroom of space.
Cons- more work and higher cost of approx 1000$

3. 8"x8" I Beam sunk into joist space with 2x8 laminated on top to hang floor joist from.
Pros- beam protrudes 1.5"' slightly less.
Cons- most work and lifting involved (over 400 lbs). Most expensive option at around 1200$ Most work to retrofit into current beam foundation pocket.

All three options allow the removal of the post and are suggested by an engineer as suitable choices. What should I do? What would you pick?


For those of you playing along at home (designing and building vicariously as I love to do as well)

THE WINNER IS OFFICIALLY OPTION 2

The engineering report and drawing is complete and approved for construction according to their strict specifications. The column can be removed. The build can proceed now as designed. Officially!!

World 1-1 Complete


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#407523 - 10/05/14 01:49 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
LVLS ordered. Delivery expected a week out.

Changing electrical runs in the basement to not interfere with LVL location is more work than I thought. Not so much the re-routing of existing homeruns, but re-feeding runs on the main floor that stopped in octagon junction boxes before going to the next floor. WHY?!

The house was built in 1968, so it seems every update made was in the form of feeding a basement junction and branching from there to the main floor.

Affected are:

Garburator
Dishwasher
Counter Cooktop (Spliced # 8s -WHY?! confused )
Garage feed (which is on the same homerun as the bonus room on the main floor confused )
Microwave
In-Cabinet Range

I also have to fish in another dedicated 20A counter plug and re-feed the fridge- as there are no dedicated branches for kitchen counters. Things have changed since ole '68. Weekend mornings making toast and coffee at the same time result in the circuit tripping if the fridge compressor decides to play too.

Last but not least, all 4ft fixtures in the basement stopped in a junction and T off to the next light before feeding the fixture. Not a big deal, but strange.

Although the service is 100A, an upgrade to a modern 100A or 200A service is definitely in the cards. Haven't decided which yet. It may be nice to have the option to run a heatpump or instant hot water baseboards in the future.

BTW the existing panel is the definition of cheating. In every way. Oh how things have changed. laugh


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#407606 - 10/09/14 03:36 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
They are here! They are heavy! sick

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#407611 - 10/10/14 08:48 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
That is a lot of wood and glue... They are very strong though.
_________________________
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#407629 - 10/12/14 09:16 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
First actual day of work!

Yesterday was a very productive day. It helps when someone you rely on for help shows up while you are still in PJs with an armload of Tim's coffee. (or as we Canadians know it as- morning nectar.)

We had gone out for beers the night before and the topic of the LVLs came up.... so my alarm clock was "lets do this." Unfortunately, lazy me wasn't ready for the LVL install quite yet. I spent the day tidying up electrical loose ends. I said "Come back in an hour and I'll be ready." 8 1/2 hours later I called it for the day.....

Needless to say the LVLs didn't get installed. On the upside I took care of a lot of gremlins this old place had been collecting for the past 45 years.

Renovations often bring unhappy surprises. Mine was a junction removal that actually had a wire leaving the back of it into the floor above to feed the fridge. But not directly beneath it of course. laugh After a half hour of troubleshooting, we were able to isolate the fridge feed from the others it was spliced into- only to find it has a buried junction box somewhere behind the kitchen cabinets. Delete and re-feed from scratch. Then we re-fed the dishwashwer only to find it had been leaking for quite some time when we pulled the front kick plate off. sick David Suzuki would be proud of my little hidden silverfish colony. A marvelous micro-ecosphere. Gross.

But all in all it was a happy day! Progress is progress and I can already feel the excitement of things to come. Here is the state of things. So far 5 existing junction home runs are deleted and replaced and the beam is finally bare.


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#407631 - 10/12/14 04:04 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
Just remember that you are doing exactly what you said.... Fixing 45 years worth of issues. Fixing them now is a LOT better than having to deal with them later. The extra hours will seem like nothing and will be well worth it in the end.
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#407701 - 10/19/14 04:36 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Chipping away! Today was another step in the right direction. Shoring material picked up and built. Picked up all the joist hangers and LVL bolt hardware. Also picked up a spray foam kit for the rim joist.

The main floor feels like I could host a concert and it wouldn't budge. Sure strengthens the place. Each joist is supported by a 2x4 and angle bracing beefs it up a little more. All material will be reused in the final frame up once the beam change out is complete. Even the old beam material will find a home. I'm learning a lot and I'm sure glad I have knowledgeable help!

Progress feels good! I screwed up and the room is actually a little wider than initially planned (about 8"). The speaker VS sofa conflict may be a moot point now. I also found some cool software that Sirquack may have used back in the day for finding and verifying first reflection points before the room is built. The plan is to have sconces on the acoustic panels so this is a great find. Good ole Axiom archives. smile




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#407705 - Yesterday at 08:26 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
mapatton Offline
local

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 243
Loc: Orlando, FL
Where did you get that software? The links I found were old and broken.
_________________________
Mark
Pio 94,SB3,BD30,A35,Pio 48AV.Pronto 7000 controlling all. Getting ready for 22s, 150 & QS8s.

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#407708 - Yesterday at 11:21 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Avs forum.

Google "first reflection point software". First hit. Post 199. Enjoy!

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#407709 - Yesterday at 11:22 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
On my phone... Will post link later.

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#407713 - Yesterday at 12:35 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
_________________________
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M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#407715 - Yesterday at 02:41 PM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
Serenity_Now Offline
local

Registered: 03/28/14
Posts: 211
Loc: PEI, Canada
Thanks Nick. grin

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#407723 - Today at 08:40 AM Re: Lets plan a theater space [Re: Serenity_Now]
mapatton Offline
local

Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 243
Loc: Orlando, FL
Thank you
_________________________
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Pio 94,SB3,BD30,A35,Pio 48AV.Pronto 7000 controlling all. Getting ready for 22s, 150 & QS8s.

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