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#53669 - 10/01/04 01:59 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16224
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
BigWill, I really hope you're joking.

Kerry's primary point is that the way the President is running the war is a mistake, and not the goals the President has set. Kerry is trying to convince voters that he has a better way of reaching those goals.

In reply to:

what Kerry had to say greatly undermines the efforts of our country and our soldiers in the Middle East.


That's one opinion. Here's another. I think the way President Bush is running the war (e.g. not completely in touch with reality and paying little heed to intelligence reports from his own staff) greatly undermines the efforts of our soldiers in the Middle East.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53670 - 10/01/04 03:18 AM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
One of my favorite points of tonight was when JK pointed out that if you want to talk about sending mixed messages, how do you say to the world that we're going to disarm you if you try to develop WMD's, while we ourselves are developing new nuclear weapons ourselves.

Another good point was how GW has handled N. Korea. I wholeheartedly agree with JK on how to handle N. Korea, I think GW is WAY of base there.


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#53671 - 10/01/04 07:18 AM Re: OT: politics
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
In reply to:

Adam, If you want to bow out, fine. A question for you though, if you think that saying someone is a liberal is an insult, then why are you a liberal ? If you call me a conservative, I will thank you.




You misunderstand me, Craig. I do not believe using the word "liberal" to describe someone is an insult (quite the opposite actually). However, you very clearly use it as an insult. And not by specifically pointing out clear factual errors, but by making sweeping and often incorrect generalizations and applying them to individuals (e.g. as a liberal, I know you think the Constitution is an opinion piece).

And for the record, I'm just as uncomfortable with people who say "you conservatives" with the same condescending tone. Liberals are not your enemies. Conservatives are not your enemies. I'm getting sick and tired of all this haughty name calling and demonizing on both sides of the fence. No one side has all the answers.

And you continue to be a brick wall with regards to the article. The fact that his premise was flawed does not mean that his story holds no relevance. But it's nice to see you dismiss the entire story based on what ultimately results to a technicality. Yes the war was legally enacted. There are lots of things that can be legally enacted that aren't necessarily good things. It was legal to own slaves once upon a time. Did that make it morally just?

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#53672 - 10/01/04 08:19 AM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Craig, I have to go w/ these guy on this. You were being condescending to the misguided libs.

As far as the debate goes, I will agree that Kerry did pull off the win. I say that not because of the content of his speech, but the delivery. He basically won because Bush lost. As usual, Bush got tongue-tied and didn't stick to his guns.....unfortunately, what I thought might happen.

Now, everyone on the Left may have the pom-poms out after getting a jolt from Kerry's performance and that's to be expected. However, John Kerry's flaws remain glaringly obvious, even after his performance. John Kerry is a used car salesman. John Kerry will say whatever suits his needs at the time. He tries to brush off the flip-flop comments as his ability to revise his thoughts in response to new information. The sheep go "ahhhh" and leave it at that, but the rest of the rational world realize that his continual and unrelenting tendancy to change his opinions and contradict the very words he has stated is despicable. This man wants to be the leader of the free world. The President of the United States doesn't have the luxury of changing his or her opinions on a whim. The world community will not provide the level of forgiveness or forgetfullness that Kerry presently expects, nor should it. The POTUS has the difficult job of processing information from all sides and then making the tough decisions.....all for the good of the nation.

The POTUS doesn't need to take every issue to the UN to pass the "world litmus test". We need someone who realizes that the UN is a pathetic organization that must not have a say in how we as a nation protect ourselves. John Kerry does not understand this. He speaks of building better coalitions.....HOW??? The allies Kerry adores have absolutely no intention, nor have they ever had any intention of taking part in this war...unless they can make some profit in it. Germany has already stated that they will not take part, even if Kerry is elected. The French are going to do what the Germans do.....because they are a bunch of self-richeous cowards who loath everything about us dirty Americans. Russia has their own problems, so I don't expect them to be sending out the Russian troops anytime soon. In the end, John Kerry is talking out his Euro-envious A$$.

This year, it is definitely another year of picking the better of two evils. Because of their loathing of Bush, many have jumped blindly on the side of John Kerry. However, slowly but surely, the public is beginning to see that he is a pathetic candidate for President because he has no spine. He has not core belief structure. He does only what is beneficial to him at the time. Fortunately for us, time has caught up with Kerry. People are beginning to understand this core problem with Kerry. Hell, even CBS is finally acknowledging it.

We've gone round and round on this and it doesn't seem to sink in. Yes, there are many things to dislike about Bush's policies, but he's the President and he acts like it. John Kerry views the presidency simply as the last great conquest in his career.....the final outcome that he sought when he went to Vietnam so briefly....the last rung on the ladder of his political career that he lusted for his whole life.....the position worth all of the lies, contradictions, and inconsistencies that he has used to get this far. That is not what being President is all about. Being President of the United States is about being strong-willed, determined, and diligent in the protection of the people of this country, regardless if whether it bodes well with the polls and the ever-shifting winds of public opinion.

Enough with the rant....the baby beckons...as does work, unfortunately.

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#53673 - 10/01/04 08:51 AM Re: OT: politics
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
In reply to:

Being President of the United States is about being strong-willed, determined, and diligent in the protection of the people of this country




Being strong willed is all well and good, but you also need to be able to realize when a mistake has been made and make changes to the plan to try to rectify those mistakes. There has to be a balance between being strong willed and being able to adjust on the fly.

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#53674 - 10/01/04 11:01 AM Re: OT: politics
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
Spiff, I don't "get" Kerry's point on North Korea. In Iraq he wants allies but in North Korea, he wants to "go it alone". I thought that the actual countries in the vicinity of North Korea have more at stake than we do in that region. Hence the multilateral talks.

Please explain to me your thoughts. I have no clue as to how bilateral talks are pertinent.

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#53675 - 10/01/04 11:45 AM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
At what point did Kerry say he wanted to "go it alone" with N. Korea? Having talks with N. Korea in no way, shape, or form means going it alone.

Even if he did mean going it alone, and talking with N. Korea, how could that possibly be any worse than what George W. has done? One of the very first things he did when he took office was to publicly anounce that he was cutting all talks with N. Korea. This, after the Clinton administration had gotten very far in open talks. North and South Koreans were for the first time able to see family members on opposite sides of the border. As Kerry stated last night, we knew what they had, and where it was when we were talking with them. But as soon as George decides to pull out, what happened?


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#53676 - 10/01/04 12:16 PM Re: OT: politics
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
How is bilateral talks not "going it alone"? He wants bilateral talks. Talks for what? We have been talking with them for years and the whole time they have been working on the bomb. How have these talks achieved a positive result? The truth is we didn't know crap because it was only a few years ago we found out that they were working on nuclear technology. Remember?

How does bilateral talks show respect for the countries in the region that have a larger stake than we do? I thought we wanted to reach out to countries and include them. I guess Asia doesn't count.


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#53677 - 10/01/04 12:36 PM Re: OT: politics
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
To add to what Spiffnme said: John Kerry never said anything about going it alone. It was G. W. Bush's claim that bi-lateral talks would cause the collapse of larger negotiations. There were no factual assertions to support that viewpoint so we just have a difference of opinion on what is the most effective approach.

I think this points up some key differences between the candidates. Bush seems to see most things in black and white either/or terms and is very decisive between the extremes. Kerry seems to see things in more nuanced, graduated terms. By comparison he can be called indecisive, wishy washy or a flip flopper, a point G.W. tried to make over and over and over. I believe that to sort out any of these issues independent factual research is required rather than just following opinion pieces.

_________________________
Mark

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#53678 - 10/01/04 01:30 PM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Zarak - Agreed. However, the problem here is that the candidate walks around saying that the mistake is one that he wouldn't have made. We have this moron up there making statements like this: "We should not have gone to war knowing the information that we know today.".....completely illogical statement which tries to make the Presidents actions out to be wrong, even though the information that he speaks of was not available at the time the President made his choice. He goes further:

SAWYER: So it was not worth it?

KERRY: We should not -- depends on the outcome ultimately and that depends on the leadership, and we need better leadership to get the job done successfully. But I would not have gone to war knowing that there was no imminent threat

Huh?....he is completely full of $&*T!!!!

Kerry had the same information that the President had and he voted to grant the President the authority to use force.

In his own words to george stephanopoulos(May 2003) - "George, I said at the time I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him,".

Yes, this hypocrit was there in the past calling for the US to take preemptive action against Hussein and arguing that Hussein was a threat to the nation and that region.

Oct 9, 2002: "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Senate Speech

Jan 23, 2003: "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."

He stated numerous times that he supported what President Bush had done. (I can continue to post quotes, but I found a site that helps with this)

He only changed his tack when he started to slide against Howard Dean, who was always against the war. Now, suddenly he attempt to rewrite or wash away history and make himself out to be something he's not.....a man with conviction and character....a man who stands by his positions and admits his faults rather than trying to deceive the public about his record.

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