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#201357 - 03/21/08 10:34 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Mo, as Ken pointed out, the daisy-chain arrangement is a straight feed-through of the audio signal in a Y type of configuration inside the sub. The split occurs before the sub amp and the signal to the next sub never enters the sub amp itself, so the input impedance of the amp is irrelevant and in that sense is "negated".
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#201360 - 03/21/08 10:53 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: JohnK]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13335
Loc: Iowa
JohnK, can you read above a few pages and possibly comment on what is going on with my situation. When I unplug the LineIn cable from my 600 sub with the sub totally turned off and unplugged, my freq graph shoots up in the lower frequencies like the gain was turned up greatly.

I have my subs daisy chained from my Denon

Denon...ep350v3.....ep350v3...........ep600v2
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#201369 - 03/21/08 11:14 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: SirQuack]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Randy, I've been more or less following your latest adventure, but since Tom already commented on the demons in your listening room, I've had nothing worthwhile to add. Unless the internal arrangement of the EP600 wiring is different from any other sub that I'm aware of, removing the coax cable from it with the sub turned off should have no effect whatever on the overall frequency response.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#201387 - 03/22/08 12:00 AM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Guys,

The 600 amp is in parallel with all of the other subwoofer amps. Y-tap or not, the amp is drawing current and that loads down the Denon. And it's drawing current whether it is on or not. I've had this issue with all three of the 600 amps that have come my way.

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#201420 - 03/22/08 12:05 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13335
Loc: Iowa
Well I just did some basic testing using an SPL meter from my primary seat.

*First of all let me say prior to these test I calibrated each sub one by one to 73dB's. I had them all daisy chained togethor, but only powered on each sub one by one and then turned them all on for a combined dB of around 80 dB's.


tests:
1) Only hooked up ONE 350v3 to my Denon's sub line out jack. No other subs daisy chained to the sub. SPL from seated position around 80dB's, keep in mind this sub was calibrated to 73dB's when daisy chained togethor with other 2 subs, so a 7dB increase in gain.

2) Daisy chained my second 350v3 to the first 350v3 mentioned in option 1 above. Left 2nd 350v3 powered off. It was hard to tell from the meter but it is possible I may have lost beetween 0-.5 dB. So still showing about 79.5 to 80dB's or still about 7dB higher than original calibration.

3) Now I added the Daisy Chain of the EP600 from the second 350v3, keep in mind the 600 is not plugged in at all. As soon as I plug in the coax cable to the 600's LineIN or LineOut jacks for that matter, the SPL readings drop by about 7dB's or around 73dB SPL, or my original calibration reading at the beginning.

4) This time I turned on both 350's and unplugged the 600 from the Daisy Chain. The combined pink noise was about 86 dB's which matches what every one talks about a 6dB gain when they are close togethor. As soon as I daisy chain the 600 into the mix, it drops to about 78dB's.

5) Finally, when I turn on the 600 so I have 3 subs emitting the pink noise, I'm back to my combined 80dB's.

So, from what I can tell being the un-scientist person I am, the 600 is sucking the output from the Denon as Mojo mentions. This is weird as my understanding is that the LineIn LineOut was transparent as Ken quoting Alan mentioned. The difference when just daisy chaining 2 350's togethor was so small if any, it appears this statement holds true.

However, for whatever reason, the 600 even when powered off and unplugged is still providing resistance or whatever and sucking power from the output of the Denon.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#201426 - 03/22/08 12:55 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
 Originally Posted By: sirquack

So, from what I can tell being the un-scientist person I am, the 600 is sucking the output from the Denon as Mojo mentions. This is weird as my understanding is that the LineIn LineOut was transparent as Ken quoting Alan mentioned. The difference when just daisy chaining 2 350's togethor was so small if any, it appears this statement holds true.

However, for whatever reason, the 600 even when powered off and unplugged is still providing resistance or whatever and sucking power from the output of the Denon.


Yep. Remember that the 350 design is different than the 600. The 350 appears to have a higher input impedance than the 600 and it therefore presents less load to the Denon. Although I'm not happy about this, I am not planning on adding a second sub. It does make auditioning other subs a pain in the butt though as they can't be daisy-chained off the 600.

One of the things I've always wondered is how badly just a single 600 may be loading my Denon. I've thought about measuring the voltage at the end of the sub cable when it's open and then plugged into the 600 to see how much it's getting sucked down. I've just never got around to doing it.

Randy, do you, my young Padawan \:\) , feel like doing this? Just stick a Y cable on the end of the sub cable, put in a 50Hz test tone, and measure the AC voltage in RMS. Then plug the cable into the sub, and measure the voltage again on the Y leg that is dangling.

Don't worry...you won't blow yourself up \:\) .

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#201431 - 03/22/08 01:14 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13335
Loc: Iowa
I'll have to think about it my master. I am currently getting a work out moving subs around again. I'm placing the 600 back underneath the center channel as it looks cool and the above graph was done with that setup and no EQ, pretty flat.

I'm going to place one 350 on the rightside shorter wall, and the second 350 on the opposite left wall, approximately centered.

Right now I'm using a adapter from partsexpress and splitting things at the Denon, and the 350's are daisy chained.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#201434 - 03/22/08 01:52 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: SirQuack]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
based on this discussion I wonder if I am going to have a hard time setting up a 600 with a 500.... hmmmmm to order a 600 or not that is the question
_________________________
-David

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#201436 - 03/22/08 02:05 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: terzaghi]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Would I be able to avoid this issue by using the RCA connection for one subwoofer and the XLR for my 600?

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#201438 - 03/22/08 02:25 PM Re: EP350v2 versus EP350v3 specs [Re: CV]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13335
Loc: Iowa
Good question, the problem is my Denon does not have XLR outputs.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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