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#203530 - 04/08/08 12:49 PM Placement of M60s made a huge difference
ZG Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 135
Loc: Canadian in NYC
Hey all!

I found out recently that one of my neighbors is an audiophile too. We’ve been meaning to get together to hear each others systems, which we finally did on Sunday. He’s got a nice sounding pair of Spica speakers and a good tube amp and vintage turntable. Together it was all lovely sounding.

When I bought my M60s I was planning on using them with a vintage Scott tube amp and an older Luxman solid state amp. (I swap speaker cables when needed.) But I got a really great deal on a Creek 4330R integrated amp a few weeks ago, and that thing just rocks the world!

So, the friend came over and helped me place the speakers in a better spot. Wow! Placement really means so much. I originally had them 8 feet apart, with my sofa 10 feet back. I found myself leaning forward all of the time - clearly my sweet spot was at 8 feet. So we moved my speakers to 10 feet apart and toed them in a little bit. Not only did I gain in the correct placement of the sweet spot, but I can’t get over how open sounding the M60s are now. It was as if they were too close together to really open up. Now they are incredible!

Two months after my 30 trial is over (I’ve had them since mid-January) and I’m happy as can be! Just thought I’d let you all know about it.

ZG
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#203537 - 04/08/08 01:38 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6780
Loc: PEI, Canada
Glad to hear your enjoying your speakers. My M60s never cease to amaze me. I think I'm used to them then I play something knew and 'wow'.


Hope you stick around and continue to share your experiences even though you have finally hit musical bliss.


Edited by Murph (04/08/08 01:39 PM)
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#203545 - 04/08/08 02:03 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Murph]
DaveG Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 868
Loc: WI
Small changes can make a big difference.
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#203547 - 04/08/08 02:07 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: DaveG]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Amazing how the theoretical equilateral triangle for speaker set up actually works.;\)
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Jason
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#203555 - 04/08/08 03:04 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Murph]
ZG Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 135
Loc: Canadian in NYC
 Originally Posted By: Murph
My M60s never cease to amaze me. I think I'm used to them then I play something knew and 'wow'.


I love this part of the listening experience! I was chatting with my friend Larry (who originally recommended the M60s to me) about the fact that so many people on this site seem to love the M80s. We decided that most two-channel listeners would never really need more than the M60s. But the M80s seem to pack some extra punch and bass for home theatre use. Since I am totally content with my two-channel set-up for TV/movie watching, the M60s are perfect for my needs.

 Originally Posted By: Murph

Hope you stick around and continue to share your experiences even though you have finally hit musical bliss.


I do visit from time to time, and will try to continue. I love hearing recommendations of what to listen to. I've picked up a few things others on these boards have waxed poetic about. That's what it's all about after all!

Zoë
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#203568 - 04/08/08 05:24 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
 Quote:
We decided that most two-channel listeners would never really need more than the M60s.


Do you come to this conclusion never hearing the M80s?
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Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#203595 - 04/08/08 08:12 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Wid]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I created an equilateral triangle with my m80's. I am 11.4 ft from each speaker and they are 11.4 ft apart... The soundstage is excellent

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#203604 - 04/08/08 09:01 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Wid]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: wid
 Quote:
We decided that most two-channel listeners would never really need more than the M60s.


Do you come to this conclusion never hearing the M80s?


I believe they did. I think it is a good indication of just how good the M60s are, except that as we know, the M80s are just that much better.\:\)
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Jason
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#203605 - 04/08/08 09:09 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
would never really need more than the M60s


Ah, but after listening to both, I want the M80s. ;\)

If I could only buy the M60, I would probably be quite happy.
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#203836 - 04/10/08 09:58 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: terzaghi]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: terzaghi
I created an equilateral triangle with my m80's. I am 11.4 ft from each speaker and they are 11.4 ft apart... The soundstage is excellent


I'm still waiting for my M80's to be delivered and I'm planning ot do the same but I heard that Alan Loft does not like too much that configuration, and rather he tends to make them closer between them instead of making all sides equal....anybody had tried this approach???
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#203847 - 04/10/08 10:44 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
I've found it better, at least for my situation, to be a few feet further back then my 80's are apart, or even my 60's when I had them. They are about 11ft apart, and I sit back about 13ft for the main seat, however, the sound is even great for the rear seats as well.

I would not spend to much time dwelling on be exact.
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#203856 - 04/11/08 12:47 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I tried and I found that the equilateral recipe works best in my room.

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#204038 - 04/12/08 06:36 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Another question, while forming the triangle, do you guys angled the speakers towards you, or keep them straight paralell from each other???

I got today the M80 and I feel that I'm missing something, in comparison to my M3ti, I know that has to be placement related, otherwise it makes no sense, but what else to do????
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#204039 - 04/12/08 06:43 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
The speakers would be angled in slightly to form the triangle.
What would help to know is how far spread apart your speakers are , how far is the main listening position from the mains, and what's the distance from the back and side wall for both the left and right M80's
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#204042 - 04/12/08 07:16 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: HomeDad]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I tried toed in, toed out, straight...you name it. For the longest time I had them toed them in with extreme prejudice and they sounded crisp and clear. Then one day I took them into a local audio store for comparison to Paradigms and when I set them back down in my A/V room, I didn't toe them in. They sounded more natural so that's the way I've kept them.

Make sure the straps across the back are in place properly and that they are in phase.

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#204043 - 04/12/08 07:43 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Make sure the straps across the back are in place properly and that they are in phase.
I second that one. I had one that wasn't in right when I first received them.
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#204054 - 04/12/08 10:00 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: HomeDad]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: HomeDad
The speakers would be angled in slightly to form the triangle.
What would help to know is how far spread apart your speakers are , how far is the main listening position from the mains, and what's the distance from the back and side wall for both the left and right M80's


Well the position is a bit critical given that I have no much space to play with. They are 8 feet apart, and I'm 8 feet from them, the are like 12 inches from the back wall, I can make the distance bigger but then I have to reduce the distance from my seat to them, and thus reduce the distance between them...

My main problem is that I'm used to the speakers to be higher as my M3ti were on top of a 36 inches stands, so I'm used to an ear level was higher than where it is now...Maybe I need to get used to the new configuration...
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#204086 - 04/13/08 12:26 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
If you enjoyed the sound of your M3s higher why not just raise your M80s up on blocks of wood. If that's what makes the difference I wouldn't hesitate to do it.
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#204112 - 04/13/08 10:56 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: HomeDad]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
What exactly do you find different between the M3s and M80s with respect to height?

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#204121 - 04/13/08 12:35 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
There is only a few inches in height difference from the M3 on 36" stand to the M80s. I doubt that is the problem. Have you checked the binding straps on the back of each M80 are they both flush to the bind post?

And lastly there is quite a difference from the M3 to the M80s, the M80s are much more forward sounding than the M3s, can you desrcibe what the differences are that you are hearing?
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Jason
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#204137 - 04/13/08 03:30 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Is not a few inches, the center of the two tweeters on the M80 is at 36 inches, give or take an inch, the center of the tweeter on the M3 on the stands is about 12 inches higher...the difference is one foot more or less, that, in 8 feet distance is a lot...

I was thinking on the stands, at least 6 inches stands, i saw one, the Lovan Jazz 600, not sure how good they will be, any experience with them???



Or maybe adding 4 inches plus the spikes on the bottom, I could get an aluminum extension rod, and attach the spikes on the end...


Edited by Sovkiller (04/13/08 03:33 PM)
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#204142 - 04/13/08 04:48 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Sorry, wasn't thinking about tweeter height differentials, forgot the stands are 36" and then the M3s.

Still wondering what differences you are hearing, regardless of the height differential, because no matter what, the M80s should be a large improvement over the M3s in over all sonic fidelity.
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Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#204144 - 04/13/08 04:57 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3270
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
The M80s could be underpowered. What's the receiver and-or amp used?
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#204145 - 04/13/08 04:58 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
The M80 are a high improvement in the bass over the M3ti, that's all I can tell you, I feel the mids and highs with more presence in the bookshelves, here the sound is more integral, more organic, and integrated into one big round sound infront of you...maybe it is a matter of getting more used, now listening a Santana live DVD, and it sounds very good....but thiking seriously about a little stands...

 Originally Posted By: EFalardeau
The M80s could be underpowered. What's the receiver and-or amp used?


Nope a very good Marantz PM7200 in Class A, it is very good sounding amp, according to Marantz it will have no problems driving 4 ohms load, as I contacted them first asking.
But anyway I will not use more than 5 watts of power, and the Marantz offer far more and the setting of the volume now is lower than where I was using the M3ti...


Edited by Sovkiller (04/13/08 05:05 PM)
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#204149 - 04/13/08 06:05 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
When I'm sitting 8 feet away, the top tweeter is at my ear height and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. You've now got me thinking that perhaps I should try raising them up another few inches to see if there is any difference in sound.

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#204154 - 04/13/08 06:33 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
How tall are you? How high up are your ears when in the listening position?
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#204155 - 04/13/08 06:33 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
Can you try moving them apart a little more? Mine are far more than 8 feet apart; maybe 12 or 14 or so. My listening position is probably 7 feet back.
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#204159 - 04/13/08 07:13 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Ken.C]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Ken,

With that kind of separation, isn't your centre image incoherent?

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#204161 - 04/13/08 07:38 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
Not especially. Of course, I generally listen in surround.

Also, I'm restricted by aesthetics, so that's kinda the way it is. Could be I'm not that critical a listener.


Edited by kcarlile (04/13/08 07:39 PM)
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#204206 - 04/14/08 12:28 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
ZG Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 135
Loc: Canadian in NYC
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Make sure the straps across the back are in place properly and that they are in phase.


Um, what are "straps"?
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#204207 - 04/14/08 12:28 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
The gold bits between the binding posts.
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#204221 - 04/14/08 01:33 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: ZG
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Make sure the straps across the back are in place properly and that they are in phase.


Um, what are "straps"?


The jumpers...that is the actual name, those connect the two sections of the crossover together, if you removethem you need ot biamp, or what makes less sense to me biwire them...
_________________________
No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#204231 - 04/14/08 03:19 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
ZG Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 135
Loc: Canadian in NYC
Ah, thanks! I'd never heard of them called 'straps' before. Speaking of, if I want to biwire do I have to remove them? Obviously makes sense, I'm just curious. I'd be using both the A and B speaker connections on my amp. Never tried it before but am curious.

Thanks!

Zoë
_________________________
The more you love music, the more you love music.

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#204232 - 04/14/08 03:24 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Yep, just pull the jumpers out and hook one set of wires to the top binding posts and the other wires to the second set of binding posts.
_________________________
Jason
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TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

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#204234 - 04/14/08 03:34 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
BIAMPING makes sense, BIWIRING is in my opinion a waste of time, it is just making the jumpers longer, period....

From the ten lies in audio article:

"...Even fairly sophisticated audiophiles fall for this hocus-pocus. What’s more,loudspeaker manufacturers participate in the sham when they tell you that those two pairs of terminals on the back of the speaker are for biwiring as well as biamping. Some of the most highly respected names in loudspeakers are guilty of this hypocritical genuflection to the tweako sacraments—they are in effect surrendering to the “realities” of the market.
The truth is that biamping makes sense in certain cases, even with a passive crossover, but biwiring is pure voodoo.
If you move one pair of speaker wires to the same terminals where the other pair is connected, absolutely nothing changes electrically. The law of physics that says so is called the superposition principle.
In terms of electronics, the superposition theorem states that any number of voltages applied simultaneously to a linear network will result in a current which is the exact sum of the currents that would result if the voltages were applied individually.
The audio salesman or ’phile who can prove the contrary will be an instant candidate for some truly major scientific prizes and academic honors. At the same time it is only fair to point out that biwiring does no harm. It just doesn’t do anything. Like magnets in your shoes..."

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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#204235 - 04/14/08 03:40 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
Biamping is a waste of time unless done correctly.
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#204236 - 04/14/08 03:44 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
I can tell you more, it is really hard to do it properly. And everytime you change the volume you have a new problem...
_________________________
No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#204253 - 04/14/08 04:22 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Z,

Don't waste your time. Been there, done that and also did the math.

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#204269 - 04/14/08 05:49 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
ZG Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 135
Loc: Canadian in NYC
Wow, thanks guys! I appreciate the education on this. I've only read about it all but never tried it. I presently have a sub hooked directly to the bottom binding posts. I guess that might be about the same rule as above in terms of current, etc.
_________________________
The more you love music, the more you love music.

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#205087 - 04/22/08 11:49 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: ZG]
Rider Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/11/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Calgary, AB
To all,

Back to the speaker placement. Hypothetically speaking, If one was restricted to a distance of 7'- 8' between speakers. Seating was going to cover a distance of about 12' - 14' horizontally at a distance of 12' away from the speakers. Can the 2 front speakers be towed out and still sound good across the seating area. Think of it as a backwards triangle with the base of the triangle being the 12-14 foot row of seating.

Has anybody ever tried this??? Interested in comments.

Thanks,

Myles

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#205088 - 04/22/08 12:03 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Rider]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I've tried it and it sounds just fine for movies but the soundstage isn't great for 2-channel music. Basically, the imaging falls apart. I haven't tried it with multi-channel though. It may sound good.

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#205092 - 04/22/08 12:40 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Basicaly what you are doing is placing the spekaer out of axis, not a good idea IMO...

BTW today I received the 5 inches spikes, let's see how they will sound after elevating them...
_________________________
No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#205093 - 04/22/08 01:06 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Rider]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
Even in that situation, I think you would be better to have them aiming straight.
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#205096 - 04/22/08 01:17 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
My comments above weren't aimed at toe-out. They were aimed at the relative distances of speakers to listener and speaker separation. I agree with others - don't toe them out.

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#205104 - 04/22/08 01:43 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
Toeing them out will result in a big loss of the upper frequencies. I agree with the others; don't toe them out.
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#205111 - 04/22/08 02:41 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
Mojo, I was respoding to the OP.
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#205112 - 04/22/08 02:47 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I know. I just happened to re-read the OP's question and thought I should clarify my post.

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#205113 - 04/22/08 02:51 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
no problem, I hate forums as it is hard to know if someone is replying to you, unless you use the quote feature. \:\)
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#205114 - 04/22/08 03:32 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
...I hate forums as it is hard to know if someone is replying to you...

Particularly when they are constantly interupted by butt-frenchers and the like.
_________________________
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#205116 - 04/22/08 03:43 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
no
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
problem,
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
hate
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
forums
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
as
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
it
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
is
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
hard
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
to
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
know
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
if
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
someone
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
is
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
replying
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
to
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
you,
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
unless
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
you
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
use
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
the
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
quote
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
feature.
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
:)


Is that better \:D ?

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#205118 - 04/22/08 04:01 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3270
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
no
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
problem,
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
hate
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
forums
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
as
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
it
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
is
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
hard
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
to
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
know
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
if
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
someone
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
is
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
replying
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
to
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
you,
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
unless
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
you
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
use
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
the
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
quote
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
feature.
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
:)


Is that better \:D ?

Were you replying to MY post or JP's?
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#205122 - 04/22/08 04:37 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: EFalardeau]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I dunno, I don't find it that hard at all. When I reply, I make sure to click the reply button in the post I'm replying to. If there is any confusion, people can click my post's re: link (the one that's at the top of the post just right of the title) and see the post I'm replying to.

Just learn to use the forum properly and you should be good to go.
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#205123 - 04/22/08 04:40 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
eh, forget that.
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#205135 - 04/22/08 06:28 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
Rider Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/11/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Calgary, AB
Thanks everyone,

I guess I will not be toe-ing out my speakers.

McD

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#205137 - 04/22/08 06:40 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Rider]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7400
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Try it anyway, temporarily, that is. Go from toed-out to toed-in. It'll give you a great reference on what happens to the soundstage and imaging with regards to placement.
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#205842 - 04/28/08 05:20 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: St_PatGuy]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Well finally and definitelly the M80's are not for me, good recordings sound really good, but the mediocre ones sound really awful. So as those are not so limited in my collection, unfortunatelly for me, and as previously they do not sound so bad with hte M3ti's, I decided to contact the experts here for advice, after trying everything and a few emails, we decided that the M80 are too neutral sounding, and flat. Maybe as the M3ti have a little dip in the midhighs, probably is how they do not sound so terrible while the recording is not so good...

So tomorrow I will received the M50's with are basically the M3ti's with more bass and will try to see if those do it for me...
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#205912 - 04/29/08 08:03 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6780
Loc: PEI, Canada
I understand. I spend a long time re-ripping all my CDs to FLAC instead of over compressed MP3s that sounded fine on my MP3 player or car stereo but were very "blah" on the M60s. (Hows that for a musical term.) This helped a lot but I still have some bad sounding CDs that were just recorded poorly.

I'm a little bit the other way though, the good stuff sounds soooooo good I could never go back. I'd miss the quality sound too much when it occurs. I tend to play my entire collection on Random mode with all genres included so the poorly recorded stuff gets spread out a fair bit.

Glad to see someone make a decision based on what they like. In the end, that should be all that matters.
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#205924 - 04/29/08 10:01 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Murph]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
It is not that I do not like good recordings, I do, unfortunately the Rock from the 60/70/80 was recorded so poor that there is no way I could enjoy them in a very accurate system (speakers) otherwise it will point all th flaws and this will become a nightmare...the M3ti, and I hope the M50's will be also a good sounding system just that not so accurate, and though it will let you enjoy a little bit more the recordings, but if I could get all my recordings done in a better way and opt for a far better system I blindly will go for it...but at the end music is all I enjoy, not audio accuracy, if I were an audio accuracy freak, then the M80 will be my choice...

I'm mainly into headphones, as I live in an small apt and space and neighbors are not very condescending with my musical taste, so I have no other option, but I like once in a while listen to a good set of speakers as well....


Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 10:02 AM)
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#205943 - 04/29/08 12:56 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
unfortunately the Rock from the 60/70/80 was recorded so poor that there is no way I could enjoy them in a very accurate system

Would you like a hot toddy with your blanket statement? ;\) That's an unfair assessment of many quality titles available in those eras, especially the 70s and 80s. Sure, a lot of material was recorded and/or mastered poorly, but there are many gems to be found. Pink Floyd and Dire Straits are only a couple examples.
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#205946 - 04/29/08 01:06 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: pmbuko]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
 Quote:
unfortunately the Rock from the 60/70/80 was recorded so poor that there is no way I could enjoy them in a very accurate system

Would you like a hot toddy with your blanket statement? ;\) That's an unfair assessment of many quality titles available in those eras, especially the 70s and 80s. Sure, a lot of material was recorded and/or mastered poorly, but there are many gems to be found. Pink Floyd and Dire Straits are only a couple examples.


Buddy I have more the 2000 CDs inm y collection, Sorry but I know what I'm talking about, I'm not a newbie in music OK? Also have some experience working in some amateur recordings at my younger age, for every good recording of that time, I could pick up 20 bad or more...
Pink Floyd and Dire straits are mong the best, no doubt, but just listen Grand Funk, intruments placed only in one channel, or early Alice Cooper, or the Born again from Black Sabbath, or, BBA live, and BBA studio,even early Metallica, Dream Theater, recordings completelly lifeless, dead!!!!.....well I could make a huge list if you like...of the 2000 CDs I have here, I could qualify as very good, maybe 100-200 of them...that is 10%, is that a good rate???

For sure we have trully Gems, considering the tehcnology available at that time, but we have also, very very sloppy recordings as well...




Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 01:06 PM)
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#205948 - 04/29/08 01:17 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I can tell I annoyed you slightly -- does anyone start a sentence with "buddy" when they're not annoyed? -- so I'd like to assure you that it wasn't my intention to shoot down your entire statement, nor did I assume you were an uneducated noob. Of course there's more crap recordings than good ones. I simply felt your statement summarily dismissed all recordings.

I admit that my opening statement could be construed as a jab, but it was an attempt at humor, not an attack.

< shakes fist> darn you, ambiguous internet communication!
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#205951 - 04/29/08 01:24 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
Well, if they're stoned... or Pauly Shore.
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#205952 - 04/29/08 01:26 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: pmbuko]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I would take having to manipulate the tone settings on the receiver a little to make the bad recordings better on the M80s opposed to not hearing Pink Floyd like it was meant to be heard as on the M80s. But I might feel differently if I had 2000cds, as I agree with the rate of poor recordings, luckily I have only a handful of bad ones in my meager 100+ collection.
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#205958 - 04/29/08 01:36 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: pmbuko]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
I can tell I annoyed you slightly -- does anyone start a sentence with "buddy" when they're not annoyed? -- so I'd like to assure you that it wasn't my intention to shoot down your entire statement, nor did I assume you were an uneducated noob. Of course there's more crap recordings than good ones. I simply felt your statement summarily dismissed all recordings.

I admit that my opening statement could be construed as a jab, but it was an attempt at humor, not an attack.

< shakes fist> darn you, ambiguous internet communication!


Not a single bit, I'm not upset in any way, it is bad habit from my years of a rocker, we call dude mainly all friends, I have no reason at all to be upset with you my friend, first I did not made those recordings, I'm only just suffering them, second what you said is true, generalizations are not always a good method...Forget my maners but dude is nothign wrong trust me on that...
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#205960 - 04/29/08 01:39 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
I would take having to manipulate the tone settings on the receiver a little to make the bad recordings better on the M80s opposed to not hearing Pink Floyd like it was meant to be heard as on the M80s. But I might feel differently if I had 2000cds, as I agree with the rate of poor recordings, luckily I have only a handful of bad ones in my meager 100+ collection.


You can do it, unless your receiver has no tone network, audiophile ones do not have tones....mine has, but I defeat them most of the times...

M50's running wild, but still missing the sparkle I have in my M3ti's, let them run for a couple of days to see...otherwise time to mess up and play with the corssover point...LOL...I saw a resistor that most likely will be out soon...LOL...
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#205969 - 04/29/08 01:58 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
Hmmm... Advents as a first speaker, only listen to rockers like Floyd, Zep, Yes... Who knew I had such good taste?? It must be destiny that I ended up here.

Sov, Hope the 50s work out better for you.
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#205976 - 04/29/08 02:16 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I just can't imagine M3s with sparkle, Mark can you help me out?;\)
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-----------------
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#205979 - 04/29/08 02:21 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
I had the M3ti, not the V2, not sure if there is a difference in the drivers or xover point, or xover design, but I can tell you for sure, than the M3ti I had here, offer you a more detailed and present treble energy than the M80's and M50 I currently have here, not sure if it was maybe a matter of placement, position, height, or maybe they used different drivers, cosmetically for sure they are, not sure internally...
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#205981 - 04/29/08 02:33 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Sovkiller
but I can tell you for sure, than the M3ti I had here, offer you a more detailed and present treble energy than the M80's ....
Man, that still sounds so wrong, but I do believe you. It really makes me think you have a bad set of M80s, then again what I consider detailed might just be too bright/forward to you. Then again, Ken also found the M3 to be better than the M80 in the ways as you suggest.

Have you tried any other speaker companies just to see if there is anything alse out there that suits your tastes?
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
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#205983 - 04/29/08 02:39 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
there is no way the m3's offer more detail than the 60's or 80's, based on design. However, everyone has a different definition of detail. \:\)
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#205984 - 04/29/08 02:41 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Wow! More sparkly than the 80s?

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#205985 - 04/29/08 02:42 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
there is no way the m3's offer more detail


You forgot to say "in my opinion"
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#205988 - 04/29/08 02:43 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: pmbuko]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
It is fact buddy. \:\)
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#205990 - 04/29/08 02:46 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13325
Loc: Iowa
SOV, your not the only one on this forum that knows music. 2,000, that is nothing. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#205991 - 04/29/08 02:47 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I'll bet there are some frequencies that sound more detailed on the M3s then the 80s.

Randy, please audit the frequency response graphs and let us know what those frequencies are \:D .

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#205995 - 04/29/08 02:50 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Cock fight!
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#205996 - 04/29/08 02:50 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
My major complain with the M80 is not the treble energy, the bright sound do not bother me at all, I like bright forward sound, but bright in the sense of upper highs, not on the midhighs, the mids were too present for my taste on the M80s, giving it a sound a little honky, not sure if that is the right term, but that is what sounds to be...

I have tried other brands of course, from studio monitors to other more expensive brands, evne DIY designs, and none of them offer the value per sound Axioms offer...This is the first time this happen to me with a set of speakers, all the other trnasitions have been peacefully...

Now if someone like to waste money and pay more to get the same sound and fool later yourself into beleiving that you have superior set of speakers, go ahead, I simply go for what my ears tell me...

Also there is not much to improve here in my living room, it is rather small, for a larger room I may consider to change to another more sophisticated brand...
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#205997 - 04/29/08 02:53 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
Hey, if your ears tell you you like the M3s better, more power to you.

Given my own comparisons of the M3s, the M50s, and the M80s, I clearly prefer the M80s for the sheer presence of them, but the M3s were quite good. I found them superior to the M50s, as much as it hurts me to say that.
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#205998 - 04/29/08 02:53 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
SOV, your not the only one on this forum that knows music. 2,000, that is nothing. \:\)


I never said that, just that in my CD collection I found a lot of crap recorded, and unfortunately I need to deal with it, if I had only 10 CDs, as many people that had multithusad dolar setups have, I problably do not have that problem...

I didn't state the amount of CDs t obegin a pissing match, just to show the good/bad ratio I found, and how to deal with it....
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#205999 - 04/29/08 02:55 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Ken.C]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Hey, if your ears tell you you like the M3s better, more power to you.

Given my own comparisons of the M3s, the M50s, and the M80s, I clearly prefer the M80s for the sheer presence of them, but the M3s were quite good. I found them superior to the M50s, as much as it hurts me to say that.


On the M3ti the bass is a little anemic, and evne while i ahvea sub, I was looking into improving that dpt, and I openned a pandora box by mistake!!!!
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#206000 - 04/29/08 02:56 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
Have you already sent back the M80s? Do you still have all 3 speakers? Might be fun to set up a listening test.
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I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#206001 - 04/29/08 03:01 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Sovkiller
My major complain with the M80 is not the treble energy, the bright sound do not bother me at all, I like bright forward sound, but bright in the sense of upper highs, not on the midhighs, the mids were too present for my taste on the M80s, giving it a sound a little honky, not sure if that is the right term, but that is what sounds to be...


Now if someone like to waste money and pay more to get the same sound and fool later yourself into beleiving that you have superior set of speakers, go ahead, I simply go for what my ears tell me...

See, now you are describing what most of us hear, although I am sure your M3s must sound different than the ones I have heard as they were not bright at all and the mid range/highs were depressed.

As to your second comment I quoted, like you said you are going with what your ears hear, just as the rest of us are, I don't believe anyone is fooling themselves.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
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#206002 - 04/29/08 03:07 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Trust me that I know a few that fool themselves everyday...Them ids of the M3ti were a little depressed as you say, but the highs were too live, specially in the upper registry. \:D

Listening setup, uhhh, are you flying here??? I still have the 80 and 50's...


Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 03:09 PM)
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#206003 - 04/29/08 03:15 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17755
Loc: NoVA
Not for me, but for you. Are you directly comparing them or just going by memory?
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I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#206004 - 04/29/08 03:20 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Ken.C]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
I have them side by side now....
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#206036 - 04/29/08 05:22 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Shoot this selection is turning really ugly and hard for me....

On one side, I like the fun of the M50's, aslo even whith the fun factor, the M50 do not totally solve the problem for me in the mediocre recordigns...Now on the other hand I refuse to give the resolution of the M80s in the whole spectrum? Guys who said that this is easy???

HELP!!!!
Doing more A/B now, let's call a couple of other good ears for help!!!
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#206041 - 04/29/08 05:34 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SRoode Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
Sov,

I would have suggested tone control like Jake. Maybe a high end equalizer. I know that audiophile level components usually don't have them (and in your case they are not being used), but you really have to look at what your complaint is.

You are trying to compensate for bad recordings, and your proposed solution is to choose a speaker which does not replicate what is input into it correctly to compensate for the bad recording. Wouldn't it be better to retain the monitors that are faithful to the recording, and adjust (via tone control) these deficiencies when required?

Just my opinion...
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#206042 - 04/29/08 05:48 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
Spoiler Offline
aficionado

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 680
Loc: South Florida


Well put Sroode.. certainly a viable option to consider.
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#206061 - 04/29/08 07:34 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Spoiler]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
I did that for years, until my EQ died and then, no more decent equilizers in the market to choose from, unless from the PRO audio...so I changed my spekaer to a decent ones, I bingo no more need of EQ, till now....

Also most fo the time what is bad in a recording in the mix, not the EQ...
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#206064 - 04/29/08 07:38 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SirQuack Offline
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ZG (original poster) I'll apologize for the others for hijacking your thread. ;\)
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#206066 - 04/29/08 07:42 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SRoode Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
Axioms are more than decent speakers.

The speaker does not know what a "mix" is, it reproduces frequencies. These frequencies can be adjusted, and a bad or decent speaker cannot delineate the "mix" from the frequencies. It plays what it gets to the way it was built.

There are plenty of high end EQ's out there... Try this one to start:

http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Totally digital and fully programmable... Less than $300 too.
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#206067 - 04/29/08 07:43 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
SRoode Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
Randy, you are right.

This is my last post on this thread. I am very sorry.
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#206070 - 04/29/08 07:45 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
Ken.C Offline
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Dude, hijacking posts is the national pastime around here. Don't worry about it.
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#206087 - 04/29/08 08:28 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Ken.C]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: SRoode
Axioms are more than decent speakers.

The speaker does not know what a "mix" is, it reproduces frequencies. These frequencies can be adjusted, and a bad or decent speaker cannot delineate the "mix" from the frequencies. It plays what it gets to the way it was built.

There are plenty of high end EQ's out there... Try this one to start:

http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Totally digital and fully programmable... Less than $300 too.


Why do you think I got into Axioms? I like them, I consider them among the best speakers out there, and I have heard a few in good rooms and setups, unfortunatelly not home....

Guys I know what speakers do, and the problem with the EQs is that once you introduce them into the signal other problems begin, unles digital as this one, and even though, you will have phase shifts, noise, and some other problems that may arise, I preffer to fix that naturally, and again till now using bookshelves I never had this problem before, not sure why floorstanders have to be different, once I got into floorstanders, the problems begin...maybe is a matter of getting used to them as well, that is another posibility...
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#206088 - 04/29/08 08:30 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SirQuack Offline
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Steve, I was just joking, kinda. \:\)
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#206093 - 04/29/08 08:46 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Sov try playing nothing but the good cds on the system for a few days to really enjoy the floorstanders, take your pick M80 or M50, then try to go back to the bookshelfs to see if you still feel they are better.

BTW, could you not use the M3s for poor recordings and then use the floorstanders for the good recordings? I don't remember if this was ever discussed.
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#206097 - 04/29/08 09:02 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
I gave the M3ti as trade in for the M80's, and unfortunatelly i ship them already to them...but you know what, I will keep the 80's, see what happen later on...IMO iti s a matter of getting used more than anything else...

BTW does anybody had tried ot use any super-tweeter, I found the AV123 Onix browsing online, and they seem to improve somewhat the highs, making them more airy and spacious, more natural sounding, not sure to what extend that claim is true or not, but giving them atry will not harm...Any ideas?
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#206099 - 04/29/08 09:27 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
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Posts: 10398
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Well considering most people can not hear above the 17khz-18khz the M80s can do and frequencies that high are not felt, I wouldn't do it. Also I can't think of too many sounds that are even up in that range especially musically.
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#206102 - 04/29/08 09:41 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
 Quote:
BTW does anybody had tried ot use any super-tweeter, I found the AV123 Onix browsing online, and they seem to improve somewhat the highs, making them more airy and spacious, more natural sounding, not sure to what extend that claim is true or not, but giving them atry will not harm...Any ideas?


Snake oil.
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#206103 - 04/29/08 09:47 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
First I do hear up to maybe 19-20KHz, the last time I measured it at least, a few years back, second it is true that there is not too much material at those freq, almost none, but the problem is not so simple as to listen or not those freqs. These freq above the spectrum, have also harmonics in freq below, and far below their significant value, those are the ones that make the difference, also if you take a look at the graphs, they claim the tweeters to go to 22KHZ, but the graph shows a big dip like 20db, at maybe 16-17KHz what IMO makes them impossible to even reach 20KHz accordingly, as they claim...IMO those are ideal claims, but in reality what you are getting, is maybe pretty much around 16KHz at 90db, and them a huge roll off, of 20db...at 16 KHz there is material, and rolling it off, should make a big difference, that is IMO of course, but what do I know about this?


Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 09:52 PM)
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#206104 - 04/29/08 09:50 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Wid]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: wid
Snake oil.


Wow so radical!!! Have you ever tried them? I mean you could possibly be right, but I would like to know from someone with first hand experience with them...in other words I will be the Guinea pig if you like, and will try them, and will tell you later on what my thoughts are, they are returnable, all you loose is the shipping cost, not cheap, but IMO a fair price for a tryout I think...


Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 09:52 PM)
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#206106 - 04/29/08 09:57 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Be my guess and order a pair, it's your money.


BTW, if they are so darn good why doesn't every speaker made for AV 123 have them already built in? Makes me wonder.




Edited by wid (04/29/08 10:04 PM)
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#206107 - 04/29/08 10:05 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Wid]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: wid
Be my guess and order a pair, it's your money.


BTW, if they are so darn good why doesn't every speaker made for AV 123 have them already built in? Makes me wonder.



Just for curiosity, did you ever tried or have heard any implementation of them? Maybe an Onix, Tannoy, Tonian, muRata, LCY, Townshend or any other? I mean you can save me the hassle..LOL... ;\)

Don't wonder, mainly all their speakers have one, if not the ribbon one, they use a terrific dome VIFA tweeter, the one with the phase plug, that goes up to 40KHz, that is pretty much what a ST does....


Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 10:15 PM)
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#206108 - 04/29/08 10:15 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I had a pair of Pioneer Hpm 1500s that had super tweeters back in the late 70s, so yes I have heard them implemented in a speakers design. I tried to hear if they actually had any sound from them and they did not. It was all a marketing ploy as I would expect the ones from AV 123 to be.
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#206109 - 04/29/08 10:17 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Wid]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: wid
I had a pair of Pioneer Hpm 1500s that had super tweeters back in the late 70s, so yes I have heard them implemented in a speakers design. I tried to hear if they actually had any sound from them and they did not. It was all a marketing ploy as I would expect the ones from AV 123 to be.


Really? well you can find still those Pioneer in eBay once in a while selling, I saw two the other day...Funky shape as well...like discs one on top of the other or so???
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#206110 - 04/29/08 10:27 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Wid]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Rick,

You were feeding your usual gigawatt into them and you burned them out \:\) .

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#206111 - 04/29/08 10:31 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Sovkiller


in other words I will be the Guinea pig if you like, and will try them, and will tell you later on what my thoughts are, they are returnable, all you loose is the shipping cost, not cheap, but IMO a fair price for a tryout I think...
I was just going to suggest you have nothing to loose as av123 is pretty good about returns.

I do get they are supposed to add to the ambiance of the sound but is it worth the $350, not to me.

Just a suggestion, try running some test tones through the M80s, with an SPL meter just to see where they drop off in your room, the graph could just be an anomaly inside the chamber, it does look like the graph is starting to go back up just before the 20khz mark and even though it is dropping off substantially it could still be heard as it doesn't go to 0 just down 10db, which isn't good but still audible, sort of.
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#206112 - 04/29/08 10:36 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
I will see tomorrow, if RS around here has one of the SPL meters, specially the digital one, not sure, i have a couple of Cd's with test tones, a few of them that I could use to see what freq is messing up around here, and try to attenuate it, maybe with room treatments, or God knows what!!!


Edited by Sovkiller (04/29/08 10:37 PM)
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#206114 - 04/29/08 10:47 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
If you need some test tones, you can also go to the Real Traps website and download their test tool there. It's a flash application that plays a variety of test tones through your speakers. I found it easier to use than test tone CDs (assuming you have a laptop or other computer you can easily hook to your system)
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#206118 - 04/29/08 11:01 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: myrison]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: myrison
If you need some test tones, you can also go to the Real Traps website and download their test tool there. It's a flash application that plays a variety of test tones through your speakers. I found it easier to use than test tone CDs (assuming you have a laptop or other computer you can easily hook to your system)

The CDs are pretty easy to use, just read the booklet and find the tone you want to play and period, I have the original ones, not copies, so I have all the info, they have from sweep tones ot pink noise, white noise, tones at given freq, phase tests, etc..you name it...I have two of them one made by MCM electronics, and one from Shefield labs, the A2TB test disc, there is also a website here with some useful material as well and some tones, even a whole CD to download free.
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#206122 - 04/29/08 11:33 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
myrison Offline
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Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Good link, thanks for the tip.
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#206124 - 04/29/08 11:46 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
No doubt, getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Sorry about my wallet!!!

Thank You Sov, Now I have something new for my Axiom board quotes collection. This will go well with:
"All your base are belong to us".......and the rest. \:\)
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#206126 - 04/29/08 11:51 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: myrison]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
If you do inject test tones into your subs, keep the volume down to prevent frying your driver's armature.

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#206129 - 04/29/08 11:55 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
JohnK Offline
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Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10379
Steve, harmonics go up, not down. A tweeter having a response at say 30KHz doesn't affect 15KHz.
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#206130 - 04/29/08 11:55 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
What subs?
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#206132 - 04/30/08 12:03 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: JohnK]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
It seems that for weird that it seems there is a difference, to what extend the differnce isworth the extra cash is the question, I honestly am curious about them, I would pay just ot try them, if they work hey, good, fi not, send them back and period...just read below, there is some explanation for the use fo them...Maybe is voodoo, aybe iti s not, the only way to know for me is trying them....

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/supertweeter.htm

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue27/ert_tweeters.htm
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#206133 - 04/30/08 12:08 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Sov,

The super tweeters and the following go very well together.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm

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#206142 - 04/30/08 12:24 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
And with this one...

LOL, man you kill me with that one...maybe is as you said, all voodoo and snake oil, I'm to saying that they will work, I have just read about them, but I have never tried one. Even though, I know a couple of guys that I trust from headfi, very objective BTW, one is a very good DIYer, that have tried them and they say they work, same as others say power cables will make a difference, and IMO that is another load of BS....but that that is the problem, and I'm curious, and curiosity killed the cat!!!


Edited by Sovkiller (04/30/08 12:26 AM)
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#206144 - 04/30/08 12:34 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
Listening some Hendrix on the M80's now, I think that Hendrix have never sound so good in here, OMG!!! this is serious stuff, shame so revealing on bad recordings...
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#206152 - 04/30/08 12:44 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
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Wait a couple of hundred hours until those babies break in.
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#206154 - 04/30/08 12:46 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Wait a couple of hundred hours until those babies break in.

Funny, my ears only took a couple of minutes to break in...
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#206155 - 04/30/08 12:47 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Wait a couple of hundred hours until those babies break in.


Really that much? Oh God, let's wait then...one thing is sure, the M50's will go home, I will not trade the fun for this glorious sound guys!!!
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#206167 - 04/30/08 01:39 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
So you are an M80 convert now?

And that binkster link I discovered awhile back on my own and have posted links to as well. It is a good site.
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#206172 - 04/30/08 01:59 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
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Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
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For now, till I hear something better...yes ;\)
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#206188 - 04/30/08 05:15 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
jakewash Offline
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When you hear something better please let us know. I would like to hear them as well, if I can find them up here.

On that note I did have a chance to hear some Focal Profile 918s a little while back and they did sound very smooth and clean. I wish I had gone back with my M80s for a direct comparison but then again the Focal's were $5000 on sale for the pair.
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#206193 - 04/30/08 07:52 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: jakewash]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
There is a brand that for weird that it seems, Best Buy is carrying now, Vienna Acoustics, specially the Grand Beethoven's, that are very good, in the dedicated audio section, unfortunately they only go to the Mozart's that are not the best they offer, but still very good, these Mozart's run around the price of the M80's Axioms, and are similar to the M50's in size and drivers count, the drivers are designed by Scan Speak, and the cabinets are terminated in gloss finish, they have also a plinth made of black aluminum that gives them a very nice touch...even the Mozart's, sounded to me very good...
No doubt that speakers are developing, and we can find now days very good speakers if chosen wisely...


Edited by Sovkiller (04/30/08 07:53 AM)
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#206202 - 04/30/08 09:08 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
I saw the Vienna Acoustic Grand Mozarts in Best Buy (Magnolia) a couple of weeks ago. If I remember right, they were 2x the price of M80s, and did not sound 1/2 as good (at least to me)
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#206203 - 04/30/08 09:09 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
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Loc: Iowa
If you want sound better than the m80's, get some Bose cubes.
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#206206 - 04/30/08 09:16 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: SRoode
I saw the Vienna Acoustic Grand Mozarts in Best Buy (Magnolia) a couple of weeks ago. If I remember right, they were 2x the price of M80s, and did not sound 1/2 as good (at least to me)


They are around $1200.00-$1400.00 right now around here, and they do sound good to me, of course their room is better than mine, and the recordng they were playng, some kind of acoustic jazz sounded terrific...
I can not compare them with the M80's as they do not carry Axioms there... ;\) ...and to compare two different speakers in two different room is rather silly...But a friend of mine have the Grand Beethovens, and trust me that I like them better in their room, that what I hear here from the M80's...but I do not worry about that, as they cost three times as much, at least, and his room is better than mine as well...


 Originally Posted By: sirquack
If you want sound better than the m80's, get some Bose cubes.


Don't be sarcastic, we all know that we can do better than Axioms, of course, all depends on preference, taste, and money...


Edited by Sovkiller (04/30/08 09:18 AM)
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#206208 - 04/30/08 09:23 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: sovkiller]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Sov,

Why don't you take your M80s down to the store and compare there? Just make sure you take your SPL meter with you and carefully match the levels on both speakers. How can you possibly sleep at night with this question unanswered \:\) ?

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#206210 - 04/30/08 09:31 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
They are around $1200.00-$1400.00 each, not per pair.
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2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#206211 - 04/30/08 09:36 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SRoode]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: SRoode
They are around $1200.00-$1400.00 each, not per pair.


Well that was the price on top of one of them I wrongly assumed that was per pair, I never asked, but I will double check, maybethey areruning a local sale here?
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#206212 - 04/30/08 09:36 AM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: Mojo]
sovkiller Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 107
Loc: NJ, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Sov,

Why don't you take your M80s down to the store and compare there? Just make sure you take your SPL meter with you and carefully match the levels on both speakers. How can you possibly sleep at night with this question unanswered \:\) ?


I have moved my M80's enough already man, no more move, my arms are exhausted, i couldn't sleep last night, listening Cd after CD....
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No doubt that getting older is madatory, but to mature still remains optional...Join the M80's team!

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#206521 - 05/01/08 08:03 PM Re: Placement of M60s made a huge difference [Re: SirQuack]
ZG Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 135
Loc: Canadian in NYC
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
ZG (original poster) I'll apologize for the others for hijacking your thread. ;\)


Ha-ha! Well, once I hit send it belongs to everyone on the board really. I do keep popping in on it to see what it keeps generating responses. If only I generated this much activity on other non-audio related levels. ;-}
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