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#209369 - 05/26/08 03:41 PM Fred's Setup Thread
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
My speakers are supposed to ship today, so its time to get serious about setting them up. For starters, I moved the furniture around on the weekend and did a little cleanup.

I also took a look at cable options. I may end up with flat cable for certain sections, but decided to go with 12 guage speaker wire from home depot for starters (~$.50 per foot).

Once I moved the furniture I noticed a few things that were not obvious from the (not quite to scale) drawing.

1. The couch on the left side will block the bottom of the main speaker on the left side if I place it 1' from the wall(dotted blue line below). The distance from the front of the speaker to the couch is 2'. How much will this affect the sound at the seating position?

2. It will not be that hard to put the surrounds directly at the side (red x below) of the couch cieling mounted instead of on the rear wall. The advantage of this position is that the left speaker will not be firing into the corner quite as much (3ft. vs 1ft). With the rear position, I can mount the speakers lower down. Are there any strong advantages to either position? I also noticed that in the rear position they will be outside the recommended 90-110 degrees off axis recommended by Axiom/thx.



I have put blue boxes for the two most convenient locations for the sub, but will do the sub crawl to see whats best.

I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209370 - 05/26/08 03:51 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
doormat Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 395
Loc: Cold Lake, AB
My RF speaker was partially "blocked" by a couch. I'm not sure how much effect it had, but, boy, did it bother me. It was a futon with an extra mattress for comfort. I ditched the extra (guests should be focused on the speakers anyway ).

Although moving the speaker out a little may make the area impassable, I find the long walk around to be preferable to any sacrifice, however marginal, in SQ, real or imagined.

_________________________
M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.

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#209371 - 05/26/08 03:54 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Fred, everything looks good so far. I'd definitely try out the surrounds in both positions to see which sounds best. Will you put them on stands if you place them on the side?

I think you will get better bass reinforcement with the sub in the corner behind the couch. It may be more localized in that position, especially if you plan to listen to music, but it may work good for movies. You know what I'd do? Get two subs and utilize both positions!

As for the couch blocking the speaker. . .it's not ideal, but, hey, what can you do? Sometimes home decor isn't fair for those of us without a dedicated room. As long as you get some clearance over the arm of the sofa with the drivers you should be okay. Have you thought about risers to lift the speakers up a bit?
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#209372 - 05/26/08 04:00 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I think for your side surrounds if you were to mount them about mid way between the back wall and beside the couch you would achieve the best surround field, it should be possible as you were thinking of ceiling mounting them anyway.

So far s the LF main, you will just have to play with it to find out how much it affects it. I have my M22s upstairs in such a positon and I haven't noticed much of an issue, then again I don't listen critically up there either.

For the sub, the back corner is probably the better place as the forward/mid wall position kind of duplicates the LF speaker situation, with the RF main sitting in behind the sub. I also found that having my sub shooting across the front of my mains didn't quite sound right in my room.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#209373 - 05/26/08 04:36 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3875
Loc: Up yonder
I have a similar arrangement with two couches as you do. The left front looks funky, but everything sounds just fine. The tweeters are above the arm rest, so I suspect it doesn’t degrade SQ at all. I moved my 600 all over the room with the corner position as my first choice, but I ended up placing it right where your mid room X is. When the sub is too close to the listening position, I can identify where it is by sound….which is a bad thing. Moving it to the mid wall evened out LFE throughout the room.
_________________________


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#209386 - 05/26/08 10:06 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, I don't see the partially blocked speaker as being a problem. At any given time, one or both of my M80s is partially blocked by toys, boxes, fans, the door... No problems with SQ here, but clearly I'm not the most discerning listener.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209387 - 05/26/08 10:08 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: michael_d]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the feedback.

LF Speaker
- tweeters won't be blocked
- I will have to play a bit with couch positioning to see if it affects anything.

Surrounds
- no stands, it will be wall or ceiling mount
- I will probably get a cople of construction grade 1x4s I can wedge in position to try them behind and beside to see whats best

Sub
- why stop at two? sigh...
- I may actually attempt a DIY since I like to build stuff but that won't be for a while.

That brings me to another setup item: level matching. Most folks seem to use the Radioshack spl meter and there are correction charts for it, but its not available here in Canada any more. The source carries a Scorsche meter, but I don't know if there are any correction charts for it.

Also, having done the 'clap test', I know have a very 'live' room and may end up wanting to quantify that a little. I have seen suggestions on hometheatershack.com for using a full range mike (30Hz-10kHz I think) to see what frequencies are boosted by the room. Has anyone taken this approach?

I got an email on Friday saying my stuff would ship Today, but have not received an email confirmation as of 3:45pm. Its a good thing I have stuff to keep me occupied for the next couple of days.

Its off to home depot tomorrow for lumber and wire. I still need to find an area rug too.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209388 - 05/26/08 10:24 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Eh, I wouldn't stress on the correction charts; just leveling the channels is really important, and you'll be doing that with pink noise anyway.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209389 - 05/26/08 10:26 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
How do you level match (or equalize with a bfd down the road) a sub with an spl meter that is not accurate below 100Hz??
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209391 - 05/26/08 10:36 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Eh... I just pretend it is. It seems to work out ok. I don't do any equalizing.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209393 - 05/26/08 10:52 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Hrmpf!! Fine for you maybe, but us Germans have this thing about Swiss precision.


Edited by fredk (05/26/08 10:52 PM)
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209394 - 05/26/08 10:56 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Heh... I'm just saying that having a sound meter is better than not having one at all, even if it may be inaccurate at lower frequencies.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209416 - 05/27/08 01:57 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
doormat Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 395
Loc: Cold Lake, AB
Sonicboom still carries the RS meter up here:
RS analog meter
_________________________
M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.

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#209419 - 05/27/08 02:32 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: doormat]
honkongphooey Offline
regular

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 5
Loc: West Vancouver, BC, Canada
That AVIA + SPL combo deal at Sonicboom for $99 is a pretty fair deal when considering I just bought a new Avia II DVD and a used Radio Shack SPL off Ebay for $83 combined (shipping included).
_________________________
"It's a nocturne. You know, Frederic f**king Chopin?" John Henry (Doc) Holliday

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#209424 - 05/27/08 05:15 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: honkongphooey]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Thanks Doormat, I had forgotten about them. I already have the DVE disk, so I don't need AVIA.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209428 - 05/27/08 05:54 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I don't have the RS meter, I bought one from an electronics shop in town. link It seems to work very well.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#209440 - 05/27/08 10:14 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Nick B Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 491
What you want for your sub is this.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/TestCD.html

This cd has test tracks that are corrected for the radio shack slp meter. So it is accurate below 100 Hz unlike the other suggestions. Track 32 to 40 are the important ones to find the best location for your sub. Those tracks have the corrected 20, 25, 31.5, 40, 50 63 80 100 and 125 Hz test tones. So here is what you do: Set your sub crossover to bypass and your receiver crossover to 80 Hz. Find the 3 or 4 different locations that you want to put the sub and run the tone tests with the rives cd from tracks 32 to 40. You want to run the test tones with the phase at 0 and then 180 degrees in each location. Keep a chart of all of this information. The best location and phase will be the one with the flattest frequency response. Since you are getting full range speakers (m60's or m80's) you could also test each location and phase with different crossovers for the front speakers as well, but only if your receiver allows for the mains to be crossed differently that the center and surrounds. For example in the first location run the test tones with 40Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz and 80Hz each with 0 and 180 deg on the phase setting. So that is a total of 10 runs that you have recorded in your chart for the first location. Repeat this with each possible sub location and pick out which location has the flattest frequency response in your range.

For my room I ran the tone tests for about 3 or 4 locations and it turned out that 80Hz worked out best for the crossover with my m22's. I tried 60 and 70Hz as well but the frequency response was a huge mess. The phase makes a huge difference when trying to match your mains to the sub. In one phase setting my frequency response was +/- 8 dB from 25 Hz to 160 Hz and with the other phase setting it is +/- 2dB. That is what my in room response is right now. You can't get much better that than since the tolerance on the Outlaw sub is only +/- 2dB. So all this work is definitely worth the effort.

- Nick

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#209444 - 05/27/08 10:33 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Nick B]
Nick B Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 491
I forgot to mention that the rives test cd has corrected tracks for the radio shack meter from 20Hz up to 20,000Hz if you want to see what your in room frequency response is. Those are tracks 32 to 62 on the cd. Yes you are taking only 30 measurements from 20 to 20,000 Hz, but they are accurate and will at least give you an idea of how much your room is causing problems.

- Nick

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#209490 - 05/27/08 02:33 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Nick B]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Hmm, that second part about corrected up to 20,000 Hz, got my attention. Combined with REW to automate the data collection it could be interesting.

After all the stuff I have read about room effects and correction, I am curious to know what my room will do to the response of the M80s.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209520 - 05/27/08 04:09 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Karlman Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Wow.. and I thought I could just unpack my speakers today, lay some cable, and I'd be good to go \:\(

Man.. I didn't realize what I was getting into when I thought 'Geez.. some speakers would be really nice down here.'
_________________________
Gene

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#209522 - 05/27/08 04:12 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Karlman]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Welcome to the hobby... Now, if you're only doing stereo, you're fine. But if you're doing surround, at a minimum you should balance the levels.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209601 - 05/27/08 09:53 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Karlman]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I didn't realize what I was getting into when I thought 'Geez.. some speakers would be really nice down here

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I get pretty obsesive about stuff I get into. I don't think level matching is all that hard to do. For the rest of it, if your setup sounds good to you, don't worry about it. If you want to play...
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

Top
#209652 - 05/28/08 07:45 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Karlman]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6739
Loc: PEI, Canada
Don't worry too much. They will still blow you away right out of the box. In fact, I'd suggest not tweaking them at all for a while so you can then get an ear for when you start to tweak them.

Tweaking is addictive and you can create great results with a little work but then the laws of diminishing returns seem to start to apply but you are already addicted and it's too late.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#209697 - 05/28/08 11:54 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Murph]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
I wouldn't start tweaking them, but I would level match them. Massive improvement in surround material that way, not to mention much less boomy or anemic bass.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209703 - 05/28/08 01:01 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
4:45am Today Fred checks mail:

Your speakers have shipped, please allow two days for tracking stuff to show up on purolator website.

zzzzzzzzzzz

12:37 pm Fred wakes up:

Hmmm.... click... copy.... click... Wa???

"Attempted Delivery - Receiver Unavailable GUELPH, ON" \:o

They hit the sorting plant in TO last night after 11:00pm!!

Now I gotta pick them up... in my escort wagon!!!

This is gonna be fun.


_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209704 - 05/28/08 01:02 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
One at a time...
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209708 - 05/28/08 01:27 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
That could take me out to the projected delivery date!

Today was supposed to be cable day. busy, busy...
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209712 - 05/28/08 02:03 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
doormat Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 395
Loc: Cold Lake, AB
I was able to get my Monitor 11 (taller than the M80s) 5.1 system with Rx and some metal stands into my Mazda 323 with the hatch closed. You'd be amazed at what can fit in a small car. Just don't bring along any passengers.
_________________________
M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.

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#209730 - 05/28/08 03:38 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: doormat]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Hmm. I was going to bring my son along so he could hold the sub onto the roof.

Change of plan. I should have read the ups tag a little closer, the speakers wouldn't have been at the store for pickup until tomorrow so I arranged for them to deliver again. I'm borrowing a cart (or whatever you call those things) from the building super to haul the speakers up 3 flights of stairs. That should make things a lot simpler.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209731 - 05/28/08 03:38 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6739
Loc: PEI, Canada
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
I wouldn't start tweaking them, but I would level match them. Massive improvement in surround material that way, not to mention much less boomy or anemic bass.


Agreed. I was thinking in stereo mode. Level matching your surround system is a very good thing to do right off the bat.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#209732 - 05/28/08 03:42 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Quick cabling question. I stopped at the local ratshack... er Source to check out sub cables and came away a little confused.

What is the difference between a standard RCA speaker cable and a sub cable. From some quick reading on audioholics, they are both coax. Are they basically the same thing with the sub cable being a single wire?

I was planning on picking up standard 12 guage speaker wire at Home Depot, but thinking on it, this stuff is not shielded. Is this a problem?
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209736 - 05/28/08 03:52 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
Absolutely nothing.

Also, no.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209740 - 05/28/08 04:10 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
OK, so I can use so I can use standard single wire speaker wire from Home Depot for my sub run as well (assuming they have RCA connectors I can attach myself. Cool. I hate spending $$ on stuff that adds no value.

Off to make supper and then for a stop at home depot on the way to work.

I'm probably gonna be running on 4 hours sleep tomorrow. \:\( I love my sleep.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209741 - 05/28/08 04:16 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17741
Loc: NoVA
err, no. No, don't use speaker wire for your sub. Use a regular RCA cable for that.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#209744 - 05/28/08 04:26 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I believe it is better to use coax cable/RCA cable for your sub runs as the signal is low voltage and the shielding the coax offers I think helps stop signal degradation, especially for long runs.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#209746 - 05/28/08 04:36 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
OK, gotcha. Regular cable for everything but the sub, RCA (shielded) cable for the sub. Thanks.

The spragius is good. Off to Home Depot.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209767 - 05/28/08 09:05 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4842
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
have you looked at monoprice for your cables?

I just paid $5 for a 10 foot HDMI cable the other day and the quality is top notch
_________________________
-David

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#209832 - 05/29/08 01:50 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: terzaghi]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Totally agreed on the Monoprice recommendation, but my guess is Fred can't wait nearly that long. ;\)
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

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#209833 - 05/29/08 01:59 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: myrison]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Nope, I wasn't organized enough to order ahead and I couldn't wait. I also don't need any sort of brand, Monoprice included, behind my cable. If standard wire works, its fine by me.

I picked up my wire yesterday on the way to work. Unfortunately, it looks like 12 guage will not fit into the clips on my Sherwood receiver. Doh!
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209838 - 05/29/08 02:27 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
doormat Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 395
Loc: Cold Lake, AB
You can just trim the strands on the end. It won't affect audio quality.
_________________________
M80s/VP160/QS8s/EP350; M22s; M3s.

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#209840 - 05/29/08 02:34 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: doormat]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Thats what I'm doing.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209841 - 05/29/08 02:34 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Can
.
.
.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209842 - 05/29/08 02:35 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
I
.
.
.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209843 - 05/29/08 02:35 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
make
.
.
.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209844 - 05/29/08 02:35 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
the big 500 posts before my speakers arrive?
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209851 - 05/29/08 03:18 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada


\:D \:D \:D \:D \:D \:D
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209852 - 05/29/08 03:22 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
I swear I heard the sound of a jaw hitting the floor and a sniffle come from the general direction of my Panasonic Mini stereo when the first box arrived.

I must say I am impressed with Purolator and particularly with the driver! I fully expected him to put the boxes in the front lobby and let me take it from there. He helped me, or should I say I helped him, haul all the boxes up 3 flights of stairs.

gotta go play.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209853 - 05/29/08 03:31 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Hutzal Offline
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OOOOO play time!
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#209854 - 05/29/08 03:39 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Hutzal]
tomtuttle Online   happy
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Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
That could be the fastest delivery-to-picture-post time EVER.

Have fun, Fred!
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#209865 - 05/29/08 04:55 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: fredk
I must say I am impressed with Purolator and particularly with the driver! I fully expected him to put the boxes in the front lobby and let me take it from there. He helped me, or should I say I helped him, haul all the boxes up 3 flights of stairs.
Not all the driver's are jerks, most I have found are willing to help, especially if they have the time to do so.
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Jason
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#209871 - 05/29/08 05:01 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
That could be the fastest delivery-to-picture-post time EVER

I'm just so excited to share



Jason. I wasn't suggesting that I was expecting a jerk. Not only was this guy helpfull but he was down right happy the whole time. And he wasn't 20 anymore either.

Courtious delivery to the lobby would have been good service. Dilivery to my livingroom was above average. The cheerfulness was exceptional.

Off to work. Its going to be a looong night.


Edited by fredk (05/29/08 05:02 PM)
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#209873 - 05/29/08 05:03 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
pmbuko Offline
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How did you get a picture of Ken's living room? Or was that his spare room before the kid arrived? \:D
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#209875 - 05/29/08 05:05 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
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New speakers and you didn't call in sick? Priorities, anyone? Now we all have to wait with you till you get them setup, at least you are not alone.
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#209887 - 05/29/08 07:02 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
Ken.C Offline
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Now, now, our floor doesn't look like that, and our couch is green!
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#209890 - 05/29/08 07:58 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
...but the rest of your livingroom is a mess like mine?

Hmm... looking at the first picture I thought my livinroom was in decent shape, but after moving furniture and putting away random stuff (and then looking at the bottom of my feet, I think a little more cleaning is in order before I put down any more wire.

No Jason. I never learned how to phone in sick for work. \:o If I wasn't saving my vacation time to spend with my kids I probably would have taken a day off.

Man am I tired tonight...
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209891 - 05/29/08 08:28 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
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Living room, kitchen, back room...I have a 13 month old. And we're also... not exactly the neatest people in the world.
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#209892 - 05/29/08 08:39 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
St_PatGuy Offline
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Registered: 03/07/05
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Congrats on the new speakers, Fred!


Okay already, you can wipe the smile off your face. . .
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#209893 - 05/29/08 09:03 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: St_PatGuy]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
you can wipe the smile off your face. . .

...after a week or so.

Tomorrow's plan. Hook up mains, hook up PC to reciever, turn on... and then I can work on the rest (yes I will turn he receiver off before I hook up the cables.


_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#209907 - 05/30/08 05:04 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Living room, kitchen, back room...I have a 13 month old. And we're also... not exactly the neatest people in the world.
My house was much cleaner and tidier before the kids came and the carpet was actually one color.
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-----------------
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#209908 - 05/30/08 05:05 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: fredk

Tomorrow's plan. Hook up mains, hook up PC to reciever, turn on... and then I can work on the rest (yes I will turn he receiver off before I hook up the cables.

You forgot to add.... post some pics of the setting up phase;\)
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#209911 - 05/30/08 07:39 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
myrison Offline
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Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Fred, what receiver are you using? I know you've told us before... short-term memory! \:\)
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#209925 - 05/30/08 11:41 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: myrison]
fredk Offline
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Short term what? Just a sec, gotta look... RD6500
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#210027 - 05/30/08 06:41 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
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After much fiddling I am... nowhere.

I moved the puter and hooked it up to the receiver. It took me a while, but I got the receiver configured for Optical Digital In (all manual). One minor glitch, the display is still in the bedroom because the receiver is on top of the stand for easy access. I had to pull the crt off my old pc and move it into the livinroom.

So I popped in a CD and... nothing. I double checked all my settings on the receiver and they are OK. According to the manual a pulsing digital input label means no signal. Sigh.

I looked high and low in Vista and there is no indication of anything relating to passing PCM. The audio driver interface indicates that optical out is connected and working. Sigh.

When I pull up the profile for the interface PCM is not shown as a supported format. I have no idea if it is even considered a 'format'.

The first thing I will try tomorrow is analog out from the computer. I need mini-jack to RCA connectors though.

If anyone else has any suggestions or insights I would appreciate it.
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210034 - 05/30/08 08:04 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
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PCM basically justs means (as I understand it) taking the raw digital off the disc and putting it onto the wire. Are you getting Windows sounds out of it?
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#210036 - 05/30/08 08:40 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
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I know, but it would be nice to have some indication that it is indeed being passed. I didn't have time to try any windows sounds, but with the receiver indicating that its not getting anything in over optical I don't think windows sounds will work.

I guess I'm trying to figure out if there is some way to confirm what is happening at each stage.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210037 - 05/30/08 08:41 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
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Double check your connections on both ends. It's possible you've got the ins and the outs mixed up. Of course, that's never happened to any of us...
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#210040 - 05/30/08 10:30 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
Ken.C Offline
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There might be an answer here, Fred. But maybe not.
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#210092 - 05/31/08 03:19 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
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I Finally managed to get sound out of my speakers using analog out on the onboard audio and CD in on the receiver. As soon as I pluged the left and right outputs in, I got an audio popup to configure the outputs. It came as speaker out( no option to assign L/R so they are hooked up backwards right now).

Seeing as I don't have any sort of speaker/audio out option on the digital output, it looks like the onboard audio won't send an audio stream over spdif. I bet when I connect the Display and play a movie it will send everything over the digital channel. If it only sends video then I will suspect audio DRM.

Seems sort of foolish to not to have an option to redirect audio streams to the connector of choice.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210093 - 05/31/08 03:30 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
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Loc: Canada
I had to haul my 21" viewsonic out of the bedroom to fiddle with the audio settings on Vista.

I managed to pack all the foam corners into one of the big boxes. Now I need to figure out where to put it.



Now that I have tunes, I can take my time with the rest of the setup. Funny thing though, max volume only gives me about 75-80db. I bet its something in the onboard audio.
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210094 - 05/31/08 03:31 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
CV Offline
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Maybe you already mentioned somewhere, but what motherboard do you have? I had trouble with my digital output on my motherboard at first. I switched it to digital, but I couldn't get any sound. I don't remember what steps I took, but I had to play with it. I have the Asus P5E.
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#210095 - 05/31/08 03:34 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
CV Offline
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 Originally Posted By: fredk
Funny thing though, max volume only gives me about 75-80db. I bet its something in the onboard audio.


My problem is that the DVD volume seems to be a lot lower than my other sound. So turning my AudioByte system all of the way up for a DVD doesn't give me enough volume, but I have no problem with the loudness of the music and other sound.
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#210097 - 05/31/08 04:07 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: CV]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
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Loc: Canada
Its a Gigabyte GA- MA69G-S3H. It was the best HTPC board when I bought just before Christmas. At the time I was only planning on stereo sound for the first while so I didn't really look into audio out options that much.

Back to work...
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210159 - 06/01/08 07:01 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Buttons, I love buttons
Latest update. All the speakers are up and I have verified that I can get sound out of them.

I tried popping in a movie to see if I got sound through the optical connection saw a 5.1 audio format. No luck so far, but I havn't pushed all the buttons yet. Dire Straits in cave mode sans sub is... interesting. LOTR with just LFE sent to the mains (virtual buttons on sound drivers are cool too!) is also quite interesting.

The receiver instructions are a little, um, sparse so I need to fiddle to see exactly what each setting does.

Here is a pic of one QS8 about to be hung on my fancy hanger thingy.


Black on black dosn't work very well.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210175 - 06/01/08 10:48 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
After much button pushing I think that my receiver is not working properly. \:\(

With multiple outputs to test, my pc audio drivers perform consitantly. If I select an audio out source before starting the cd, It will switch to the appropriate output. I could switch back and forth between Display audio (HDMI) and analog audio just fine. When I switch to the activated digital out, the receiver sees nothing. It seems reasonable to assume that since the other two outputs work as expected that the digital out is working as well.

Darn. When I picked up this receiver cheap all I wanted it for was to drive M80s for two channel. Its doing that just fine. I didn't expect to have the funds for a full system so quickly.

Looks like my next option is to do 5.1 analog out from the computer and use the receiver strictly as an amp until I have the funds for a proper receiver.

I still havn't reproduced that weird cave effect again.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210203 - 06/02/08 01:51 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Just a few thoughts.

Have you tried another optical cable to make sure the one your using isn’t bad?

Do you have the latest drivers for your motherboard?

If your motherboard has HDMI audio make sure it’s sending the digital audio to the SPDIF output and not HDMI, it may not support both at the same time.

If your receiver has HDMI why are you messing with optical audio?

If you haven’t, try sending something other than PCM over the optical to see if the receiver sees that.

If you have access to another device that has optical output see if the receiver recognizes that. Also try another receiver if you can access one.

I think your motherboard supports an add-on SPDIF dongle that has both optical and coax outputs you might try ordering one to see if that works.

Lastly you might try a dedicated sound card. Many people don’t ever get there onboard audio to work properly.

I’ve been through HTPC audio hell so I feel your pain.

Good luck,
Dean


Edited by grunt (06/02/08 01:52 AM)
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#210260 - 06/02/08 12:07 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
tomtuttle Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
I just want to say right here that next time I do a HTPC build, I want Dean to come clean up the mess. His articulation of the logic paths continues to humble me. Mad problem-solving skills.

I also had trouble with the SPDIF output from my MSI K8N board. I finally just gave up and bought the Creative outboard USB card that Room EQ Wizard likes to work with.
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#210266 - 06/02/08 12:40 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Absolutely correct Sir Tuttle. Thats a well organized list of suggestions. I'm running short on sleep these days and am probably going about this in a less than optimal way.

A few answers:

1. No. I suppose if I'm gonna buy a few more cables, I may as well try that.

2. Yes

3. Checked that. It seems to only send over one output at a time, but I can switch manually and it works switching between HDMI and analog out.

4. It dosn't have HDMI (picked up as a short term solution)

5. Tried with a movie as well. I don't have any cables handy to connect from the receiver to the display (am using HDMI to sent video directly to the display, which may be another Rats nest).

6. Don't have another device nor easy access to one.

7. I thought about this, but its a special order and may end up as 'good money chasing bad'

8. Could order a sound card, but $100 gets me the next gen AMD2+ mobo

There are a lot of options here with no guarantee of success. Since I didn't buy the receiver new from a local B&M I can't take it anywhere easily to test the inputs.

The simplest option right now seems to be to spend a few $ on pc analog audio cables to connect to the receiver that way. I know it works.

As was mentioned in my last post, this is an interim solution so if I can get it to work for a while, even with less than optimal analog conversion in the PC, thats fine.

At this point, I want to wait 6-8 months for all the newest gen receivers to be released and evaluated by the early adopters so I can figure out what is going to work best for me.

I still need to sort out how best to do audio from flac or similar through a receiver. Once I figure that out, I will know what feature set to look for in a receiver and how much I really need to spend.

I swear that the people that design these things and write the manuals have no clue how they are going to be used. I think Gigabyte and AMD tried hard on this board, and they came really close, but the didn't close the 'last mile' gap.
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210283 - 06/02/08 01:33 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
tomtuttle Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
 Quote:
I still need to sort out how best to do audio from flac or similar through a receiver.


Keep me posted, willya? \:\)

I evaluated what seems like 20 different music software front-ends. Fatal flaws abound. I'm using Winamp at the moment, but Media Monkey seems to do some stuff I like. I'm sure I just need some Axiom beer-bro consultation. Stupid space-time continuum.

Oh, you were talking about hardware, weren't you?
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#210307 - 06/02/08 02:03 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: fredk

3. Checked that. It seems to only send over one output at a time, but I can switch manually and it works switching between HDMI and analog out.

You can’t switch to “digital?” In VISTA it should be under Start>Control Panel>Sound; in XP Start>Control Panel>Sounds and Audio Devices>Audio. Should say something like “Realtek Digital Output” If it’s not there then either you have the wrong or bad drivers (check both Windows Update and Realtek) or a bad/disconnected optical output. There shouldn’t be a cable for onboard digital but double check that if there is that it’s connected. Also try disconnecting the HDMI cable and just run VGA to a regular monitor to see if that allows optical output to your receiver.


If you don’t see the option for “Digital Audio” or can’t select it then this is likely the source of your problem.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

5. Tried with a movie as well. I don't have any cables handy to connect from the receiver to the display (am using HDMI to sent video directly to the display, which may be another Rats nest).

If in the Realtek settings you are telling it to send PCM that’s what it’s trying to send. PCM is the source of most problems I’ve encountered so make sure you told the Realtek software and Windows if necessary to send AC3 or something else other than PCM. In Realtek select “Output digital audio source” and start with the lowest sampling rate.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

7. I thought about this, but its a special order and may end up as 'good money chasing bad'

True but eventually you are going to want digital rather than analog and if nothing else works it’s likely cheaper than a new soundcard, receiver (unless you are upgrading now) or motherboard. Also for some reason I’ve seen fewer problems with digital coax connections than with optical, no idea why.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

8. Could order a sound card, but $100 gets me the next gen AMD2+ mobo

True but it’s still onboard audio which always seems more finicky than a dedicated soundcard for anything but analog. If you do go this route try to make sure it has a digital coax as these seem less troublesome than optical.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

There are a lot of options here with no guarantee of success. Since I didn't buy the receiver new from a local B&M I can't take it anywhere easily to test the inputs

You are in a troubleshooting nightmare right now because you have no know good components. You really need to “bracket” the problem (e.g. is the PC sending digital, is the cable transmitting it, can the receiver read it. Without knowing what works there is no way to know what to tweak, fix or replace.

If you don’t have a friend who’s house you can take the PC to and hook it up, you could try taking the PC to a shop and ask them to troubleshoot it. If it works for them you know for sure it’s something with the receiver, or they may figure out why the PC isn’t sending. It will cost but may in the long run be cheaper than randomly replacing components.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

I swear that the people that design these things and write the manuals have no clue how they are going to be used. I think Gigabyte and AMD tried hard on this board, and they came really close, but the didn't close the 'last mile' gap.

Now you just need to add a Denon to the mix cause their manuals are just awesome.

Lastly, unless you have reason to suspect your receiver hardware or setup the most likely issue is the PC especially if it’s DIY. Receivers have few user defined variables whereas DIY PCs are chalk full of them.

Tom, Fred thanks for the complements. I troubleshoot airplanes for a living …very similar to your vaporators in most respects.

Cheers,
Dean

P.S. One last thing. Start simple. Concentrate on getting Windows sounds like kcarlile said then use the Realtek test tones to work before using a DVD, CD or audio file.


Edited by grunt (06/02/08 02:11 PM)
Edit Reason: one more thought
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#210365 - 06/02/08 07:45 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I evaluated what seems like 20 different music software front-ends.

Actually I was thinking software and hardware. There have been some comments here about streaming audio over network wire into the 3808.

Care to share your list of 20 and some comments. Perhaps the 3 most promising?
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210368 - 06/02/08 08:04 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
anthony11 Offline
local

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Seattle WA
If you're just after playing 2-channel music over the net, the Airport Express seems like the path of least resistance.

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#210369 - 06/02/08 08:22 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
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Well, if you have the existing setup for it (eg, all of your music in iTunes).
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#210372 - 06/02/08 09:03 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: anthony11]
tomtuttle Online   happy
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Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
Well, I don't have the 3808, but have always been intrigued by using its GUI interface instead of a PC-based application.

Since I have a PC co-located with the TV and receiver, I've just been focusing on PC-based software (I have the PC video output going to both a small LCD monitor and to the TV). I am pretty frugal and not a big fan of Microcult, so there are probably many obvious options that I dismissed because I wanted to find something to work in my existing, stable, paid-for environment.

I didn't want to buy either Vista or MCE. I'm perfectly content with 4 machines on XP at the moment. I don't remember why I didn't like WMP, but it could just be a philosophical aversion.

I just ran Cat5 everywhere. The only thing that's wireless is the Wii (and the laptop, when somebody needs to use it).

I haven't really embraced a need for controlling home automation or streaming media other than music, so you have to evaluate your content needs pretty thoroughly. For instance, I LIKE using the D*TV DVR, so I don't need PC-based DVR/TV functionality. Likewise, I got just tired of effing around with trying to play DVD's via a PC and decided that a dedicated Oppo was the best, simplest solution.

Erik Solheim has a good HTPC software roundup.

iTunes doesn't do FLAC.

I thought that Slimserver/Softsqueeze was going to be "it", but it didn't handle playlists at all, and my dream of whole-house audio via PC's was quashed when synchronized playback systematically became non-synchronized. I haven't had time to try Squeezecentre yet, but that might be worth a shot.

I tried to use my D*TV HR20 to stream music, and I did get proof-of-concept. But it doesn't really do lists well, either, and the interface just wasn't efficient and elegant.

xLobby is pretty good, but it is designed to do a lot more than I really need. The GUI wasn't intuitive for me. Same thing with Media Portal.

Winamp is my current favorite. The interface makes sense, and it is pretty powerful. Not quite as "pretty" though.

Ray3 is convinced that the PS3 is the answer to all streaming needs. He might be right. I don't have one yet.

I've been enjoying the tagging, conversion and organizing features in MediaMonkey a lot lately.

One of the interesting things about this topic is that there seems to be pretty constant and vibrant development occurring. I just became aware of Elisa which might cost me a few hours.

I also made good use of the flac2mp3 utility. After ripping everything to FLAC, I still wanted to make compressed copies available to my family for iPods, and this worked pretty well (although it does not currently pass the cover art along).
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#210378 - 06/02/08 09:37 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
You can’t switch to “digital?”

I didn't explain very well. I can switch between all 3, but only get sound from the two mentioned. The digital out shows up as soon as I plug the optical cable in and is selectable. Will try the VGA out thing.

Realtek dosn't allow me to select PCM, only a digital connector. I don't know what else you would sent out over an optical connection.

Once Bluray becomes affordable, I will go digital via end to end HDMI (and a new receiver). As I wrote earlier, this was a cheap short term solution.

The only reason to suspect the receiver is that it was a non-warrantied purchase with a simple 48 hour return window.

I won't buy another piece of hardware without knowing in advance that it works for what I want. There are enough people out there that want to do what I am attempting that someone is going to get it right soon.

 Quote:
troubleshooting nightmare

Yes.

Taking the PC into a shop may be the easiest thing to do. I can probably convince someone at BB to hook it up to optical in on one of their display receivers for a test.

 Quote:
…very similar to your vaporators in most respects.

Thats scary. I shure hope the operating instructions are a little better than those of your average consumer electronics. "Pushing the this lever makes the engines go faster. Pushin this lever makes the flaps go up and down..." \:o
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210397 - 06/02/08 11:49 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: tomtuttle]
Karlman Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 33
Loc: Manitoba, Canada
Tom.. did you find any software that would allow you to set a target format and bitrate for portable devices???

I have lots of room on my hard drive, and like 256 VBR at least for listening on my PC. But on my or my kids mp3 players something like 128 VBR is fine, and let's you store twice as much.

I still haven't found decent mp3 software that will automatically down convert files when I copy them to my music phone, rather than having to burn two different bit rates, and try to keep WMP from finding the low quality ones \:\(
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#210403 - 06/03/08 12:33 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: fredk

Realtek dosn't allow me to select PCM, only a digital connector. I don't know what else you would sent out over an optical connection.

You can also send compressed multi-channel formats like AC3 and DTS but only 2.0 PCM.

Sorry for the confusion about the PCM setting in Realtek I was thinking of something else however if you haven’t already double check your software settings:

Page 87 of your Motherboard manual and it should show the interface were you can configure the SPDIF out in the Realtek interface. You want to select “Output digital audio source.”

In VISTA check

Control Panel>Manage Audio Devices>(right click)>Properties submenu.
1. Under the “General” tab make sure it says “Digital Output Device (SPDIF)”
2. Under the “Advanced” tab make sure “Allow Applications to Take Exclusive Control of this Device” is selected.
3. Under “Supported Formats” select what your receiver supports.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

Thats scary. I shure hope the operating instructions are a little better than those of your average consumer electronics. "Pushing the this lever makes the engines go faster. Pushin this lever makes the flaps go up and down..."


Have you ever read an Air Force manual. I think they hire the people who aren’t good enough to write for Denon. Actually what’s scary is how aircraft are maintained, sort of like how they say you don’t want to know how sausage is made, you really don’t want to know how aircraft are maintained or flown. It amazes me there aren’t more mishaps.

Actually it is fairly simple to operate aircraft as you said push a button/lever and get a result. However there is usually a chain of events software, computer hardware, electrical, mechanical, hydraulic and sometimes fuel and pneumatic that all must work together to translate the input to the desired output.
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#210408 - 06/03/08 12:52 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
tomtuttle Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
Karlman, I wasn't really looking for that, exactly, but the following comes from the MediaMonkey site:

 Quote:
Auto-conversion allows you to automatically synchronize tracks no matter what format they're in, converting tracks on-the-fly to a format that is supported by your iPod or other portable device, while retaining all metadata.

In addition, Auto-conversion can also convert tracks to lower bitrates to make more effective use of the limited storage capacity on a portable device. This is especially useful for users who store music in lossless formats such as FLAC.

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#210544 - 06/03/08 09:46 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Thanks again grunt. The Realtek interface has changed since the manual, so it was not very helpful. I did go back through the tabs and behold, there
 Quote:
is
an spdif out and it is selected.

I picked out a few cheap audio cables and connected the 6 channel audio out to the 6 channel direct in the receiver.

The receiver is taken out of the equation because it is striat passthrough. The Realtek software switches don't seem to work as expected.

So, the mobo outputs are assignable so I plugged them in one at a time to make sure they were assigned properly. This part of the interface is nice in that a window pops up each time a connetor is inserted. My choices for fronts strangely are 'front speaker'; no left and right channel. Same with the surrounds. The center or sub is center/sub. is it one, is it both?? I am one rca to headphone connector short so I plugged in the sub.

First up, some two channel music. I get good two channel from the mains. Next I engage the fill switch (stereo to surround conversion) and... nothing. I stop the music and restart to make sure its engaged (had to do this to switch connectors) and still nothing.

Next up I put in LOTR. AHA! I get sound from the surrounds. Thats a step forward. Nothing from the center OR sub though. There is another toggle labeled switch sub/center. I flip the switch and get... only lfe through the mains??? Actually I get music too. Very weird.

Several things occurr to me at this point:

1. What the heck were the designers thinking?? A 5.1 system has both a sub and a center and you assign them separate outputs. Its not an either or situation.

2. What the He!! were all those reviewers doing that they came to the conclusion that the audio section of this board was good. I didn't pay much attention to the details at the time, but you would think, given that this was positioned as an htpc board, that they would have checked out this functionality. Apparently not. 15 minutes would have told the story.

So, next up, some final diddling in Vista and, if needed, a trip to BB to test the spdif out.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210561 - 06/03/08 11:55 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
tomtuttle Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
Fred, I think the way the cables work is a stereo mini plug to two RCA plugs. That's how they handle two channels with one plug. So, yes, the sub and the center are in one plug.

Why aren't you just buying an audio card, again? ;\)
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#210564 - 06/04/08 12:46 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: fredk

So, next up, some final diddling in Vista and, if needed, a trip to BB to test the spdif out.

I would do the BB thing. Finding out if you are outputting a SPDIF signal will help more than anything.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

1. What the heck were the designers thinking?? A 5.1 system has both a sub and a center and you assign them separate outputs. Its not an either or situation.


I can’t tell from your description if you are using Y-connectors as (tomtuttle said) for all your mini-jack outputs on your sound card. Each jack carries 2 channels and should be hooked up to the both corresponding to inputs on your receiver with a Y-connector. I’m not sure how things would work if you only connected a jack (like center/sub) to only one input on the receiver. This article might help with the cabling if that’s what’s going on. I apologize if you got this done already but I just didn’t understand the part about switching connectors.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mce/expert/connect_av.mspx

Here is some VISTA specific help unfortunately Microsoft help often isn’t ;\)

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-us/music.mspx

 Originally Posted By: fredk

2. What the He!! were all those reviewers doing that they came to the conclusion that the audio section of this board was good. I didn't pay much attention to the details at the time, but you would think, given that this was positioned as an htpc board, that they would have checked out this functionality. Apparently not. 15 minutes would have told the story.


Sadly what you are experiencing is not that uncommon. Many people have issues with onboard audio on DIY computers. And from what I’ve seen the documentation for the onboard audio is usually sparse at best.


 Originally Posted By: fredk

First up, some two channel music. I get good two channel from the mains. Next I engage the fill switch (stereo to surround conversion) and... nothing. I stop the music and restart to make sure its engaged (had to do this to switch connectors) and still nothing.


I would stick to the Realtek or Windows demo sounds to troubleshoot your connections. It’s just one less variable in the mix. Once that works then move on to other playback software/devices.

Cool that you got the surrounds working. Took me awhile the first time cause when I used Realtek the outputs labeled “rear or back” were actually carrying the surround L/R. I just started randomly switching connections and found this out. I also like the pop up that shows what you just plugged in and allows you to assign it. However, I now prefer Soundblaster as I’ve the last two HTPCs I built had it and worked like a charm. I’ve always had issues with Realtek.


Edited by grunt (06/04/08 01:03 AM)
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#210581 - 06/04/08 07:56 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6739
Loc: PEI, Canada
Tom,

Regarding your Squeezebox not doing play lists..
Because the whole Squeeze thing is open source, there are tons of free add ons to do pretty much whatever you need to do with playlists. "Moose" is a popular one. I personally didn't find the interface appealing but it did do everything I needed, including allowing me to build long or short play lists or create ones by mixes of genres and still play random. I like random for some reason. Anarchy rulez!! \:D
.
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#210636 - 06/04/08 12:22 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Murph]
tomtuttle Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
Thanks, Murph. I'm going to give it another go sometime. But not today. It would be cool if the new version of the server software solved my "zones out of synch" problem. I'll look into Moose. I appreciate the tip.

Dean, that's very valuable information. Thank you for pulling it together.
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#210648 - 06/04/08 12:51 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
I gotta stop trying things while sleep deprived.

 Quote:
Fred, I think the way the cables work is a stereo mini plug to two RCA plugs.


Well, that would make sense. You know, a simple image of a y connector next to the plug would be such a helpful clue...

I'm going to be even more embarassed if I go back to the Gigabyte manual and it tells me to use a minijack to 2 RCA connector...

Now, let me just verify one other thing. There are 3 different connectors I could have:

RCA - standard 1/4" easy to ID, one channel
Mini Jack: 3/32 (not that common according to Ratshack), two channel
Headphone: 1/8", two channel

I believe the connectors on the mobo are 1/8" as that is what fits.

 Quote:
I’m not sure how things would work if you only connected a jack

I think I quite accurately described how it works in my last post. :rolleyes:

On a somewhat related note, I wonder if the HDMI on this board is 3.1?
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#210652 - 06/04/08 12:55 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
HDMI 3.1 would be a problem but 1.3 would work nicely;\)
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#210711 - 06/04/08 07:57 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana

 Originally Posted By: fredk

I'm going to be even more embarassed if I go back to the Gigabyte manual and it tells me to use a minijack to 2 RCA connector...


Yes you want 3.5mm or 1/8inch (as you called it, I thought Canada went metric?) mini jack to dual RCA. BTW I’ve yet to meet a motherboard manual that bothers to tell you this.

 Originally Posted By: jakewash

HDMI 3.1 would be a problem but 1.3 would work nicely


What’s this HDMI “1.3a” crap I’m seeing. I thought the silliness was supposed to stop with vanilla 1.3
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#210904 - 06/06/08 10:06 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Huston, we have liftoff... well, ignition anyway.

After 3 nights of 10 hour sleeps I am now merely exausted instead of comatose. I read over the sparse reciever manual again and it actually mostly made sense.

I picked up one headphone/rca stereo converter and tagged it as sub/center out, left the other outputs with my wonky wiring and fired up LOTR. Wadayaknow, sound out of the center and the sub all at once with the receiver doing passthrough.

Off to bed again. Lucky me I'm working yet another Saturday.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#211000 - 06/08/08 07:53 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Cabling is fixed, we finally have liftoff.

I found the best source for cabling yet at my local surplus store when I went there to pick up some acrylic for my M2 stand. I was looking for a coax audio out to plug in to the mobo (which they didn't have).

Now I need to get an spl meter to ballance things out.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#211032 - 06/08/08 11:40 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Good to hear you got things going.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

Now I need to get an spl meter to ballance things out.


I got mine here:

http://www.svsound.com/products-parts.cfm
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#211654 - 06/15/08 02:03 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Some progress at last!

Add a little heat, a bend here and there and voila...


On the TV

I actually made a little 'hook' at the front so that the stand locks in place on the TV. I also put some double sided sticky tape in a couple of places to hold it down.

And the finished result.

Once my son is finished playing with the new video game he 'bought me' for fathers day, I'll fire it up and see how it sounds.

The M2s stacked in front didn't actually sound that bad. For the most part, voices were centered on screen, but for 5 channel music, the sound stage seemed lowered.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#211674 - 06/16/08 01:35 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: grunt]
lucv13 Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 103
Loc: London ON Canada
 Originally Posted By: grunt


What’s this HDMI “1.3a” crap I’m seeing. I thought the silliness was supposed to stop with vanilla 1.3




Actually 1.3b is the newest but according to the powers that know the difference is supposed to be negligent to the end user

http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#112

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#211809 - 06/17/08 12:25 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: lucv13]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6739
Loc: PEI, Canada
Really nice work on the stand. Exactly what kind of acrylic is that and let hear more about the bending technique, sometime you have a free moment.
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#211813 - 06/17/08 12:32 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Murph]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4010
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
I think you can accomplish the same "bending technique" with a really large Tupperware container and a microwave and it's a lot cheaper. I agree, it does look great though!
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#211861 - 06/17/08 02:32 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
In true Canadian form it should have been done with plastic street hockey stick blades and duct taped together for a tribute to Red Green.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
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My HT

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#211869 - 06/17/08 02:53 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6739
Loc: PEI, Canada
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.....

Keep your stick on the Ice!
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#211956 - 06/17/08 10:21 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Murph]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Thanks murph. You should have seen my first few attempts at bending.

Materials are: acrylic, blow torch, several strait edges, some spring clamps and a portable work bench.

The workbench gives you a nice flat surface and something that is easy to clamp to if you need an extra hand.

Its not really that hard, once you get the hang of heating it evenly. I use a blow torch (works well for 1/8", but is harder to manage with thicker stuff). The trick is to keep the torch moving fast enough not to overheat.

The material is 1/8" acrylic. When its that thin, it is easier and very fast (maybe 2 minutes) to heat.

I score the plastic lightly along the bend line so I know where to heat and bend. always score on the inside of the bend otherwise you will have a gap open up along the score line.

With a torch, you need to make sure to heat from both sides. It the acrylic gets quite soft when its ready to bend. It is easiest to lay part of the plastic flat on the bench and bend downward.

If you want a tight bend, you need to use a flat piece of something (ruler, piece of wood...) to push the acrylic flat against the side of the bench. This is where clamps and a square come in handy. You need one hand to hold the ruler and one for the square so you get close to a 90 degree bend.

For the bend that conforms to the shape of the back of the TV, I bent it in place so that it exactly matched the shape of the TV.

I did the same thing for the part that hooks in place, but it took me several tries to get it right.

The nice thing about bending acrylic is that, because it heats to a rubbery consitancy rather than melting, you can easily undo mistakes. Just heat the bend, lay it flat and press something flat on top of it to keep it striat until it cools.

There are a couple of bends there that I did more than once or even moved a little, but you can't tell unless you look closely.

It took me about 3 hours start to finish to make this one.

For around $40 you can buy a heater strip thats made specifically for bending acrylic. That would probably make things easier for me since I could then clamp one side of the piece down and bend it in place. But hey, I get more man points for using a torch!
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#211957 - 06/17/08 10:22 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Murph]
anthony11 Offline
local

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Seattle WA
 Originally Posted By: Murph
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.....Keep your stick on the Ice!


If it ain't broke ... you're not tryin'!

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#211958 - 06/17/08 10:24 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
In true Canadian form it should have been done with plastic street hockey stick blades and duct taped together for a tribute to Red Green.

Oh Maaaan! I lost out big time on man points not doing it that way. ;\)

Duct tape trivia: the quality stuff will hold together the ripped crotch on a ski suit for up to two weeks. fluorescent orange and silver looks really cool too!
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#211959 - 06/17/08 10:26 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: jakewash]
anthony11 Offline
local

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Seattle WA
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
In true Canadian form it should have been done with plastic street hockey stick blades and duct taped together for a tribute to Red Green.

Extra credit given for destroying a K-car in the process.

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#212019 - 06/18/08 10:40 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Murph]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4010
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
 Originally Posted By: Murph
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.....

Keep your stick on the Ice!


Lodge motto: Quando omni flunkus moritati (pseudo-Latin for- When all else fails, play dead)
_________________________
Does a dyslexic atheist not believe in dog?

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#212020 - 06/18/08 10:46 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA


_________________________
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M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#212025 - 06/18/08 10:55 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: dllewel]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4010
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
That is wild!!
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#212041 - 06/18/08 12:42 PM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Thanks? ;\)
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#212151 - 06/19/08 03:06 AM Re: Fred's Setup Thread [Re: dllewel]
anthony11 Offline
local

Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 267
Loc: Seattle WA
Patrick McKenna's appearances on Stargate are a howl too.

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