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#221992 - 09/22/08 01:49 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: michael_d]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
 Originally Posted By: mdrew
I have to admit that I am now skeptical and am wondering if all this was nothing more than a clever marketing ploy. I was in total support of this product and Mr. Ninja until the Ninja and/or fate changed the rules of the game, and his (their) mind(s) to send Ian a crossover for testing.

I do not believe in coincidences. I have yet to actually meet one……



Ditto.
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#221995 - 09/22/08 02:10 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: michael_d]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana

 Originally Posted By: mdrew

I do not believe in coincidences. I have yet to actually meet one……

Nice one!

 Originally Posted By: mdrew

I have to admit that I am now skeptical and am wondering if all this was nothing more than a clever marketing ploy. I was in total support of this product and Mr. Ninja until the Ninja and/or fate changed the rules of the game, and his (their) mind(s) to send Ian a crossover for testing.


I’d call it a brilliant marketing ploy and in saying that I pass no value judgment on the Ninja or his products. After-market enhancements are industries unto themselves, just look at cars/trucks/motorcycles, so if Ninja can make a buck changing Axiom speakers and Axiom has no heartache over it then great.

However, since many people probably came to Axiom to get what they felt was the best bang for their buck I view crossover changes in the same light. What else can I buy with nearly 2/3s the price (the Master Upgrade) of a pair of M22s that might help more than different crossovers. Most people would likely (I know I would) benefit from some form of room treatment. Also, better quality recordings really help with the M22s just to name a couple things.

Having listened to the M22s for more than a month now I find it hard to believe that an additional 2/3s of the M22s price will give me a speakers that sounds correspondingly better.
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#221996 - 09/22/08 02:12 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: grunt]
samandnoah Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 320
Loc: Austin, TX
Guys--

I support healthy skepticism. And I support healthy debate. Based on my prior knowledge and interactions with the Ninja, my personal belief is that the cynicism is not warranted. He's been around for a long time in other forums, and has been doing these kinds of mods/products for quite a while.

I can at least say that he's not just another "Johnny-come-lately" fly by night operation. There are plenty of satisfied customers who can attest to that.

I have no personal ties, nor am I even a customer. I just read a lot of "stereo porn" (as my wife likes to call it) in several forums. \:\)

Regards,
Rich

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#221998 - 09/22/08 02:36 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: samandnoah]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
there are only a few variables which give a speaker its sound ... cabinet ... drivers ... tweeters ... porting ... cross over. the x over network is a huge factor as to the sound quality. m22s are great speakers built to a price point. a redesigned cost no object x over should substantially modify an m22's voice. listening and testing are the only way to determin if for the better.
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#221999 - 09/22/08 02:55 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: 2x6spds]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4074
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Ninja would have to have had to listen to both. It would be interesting to hear his take on the "differences" between a stock M22v2 and his modified version.
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#222000 - 09/22/08 03:14 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: 2x6spds]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6247
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I am having great difficulty believing so many grown adults have never experienced a coincidence.

Simple example: Years ago, I was working in a local book store. A woman was making a purchase and, though I forget how the subject came up, she told me she had just moved to our area from a specific town in California. I said "what a coincidence! My sister lives in that town." "Oh?" She said. "What is her street?" I told her and she said "What a coincidence! I lived on that street! What is your sister's name?" I told her and she said "OH my gosh, I lived just across the street from her and she is a dear friend."

Whether one believes in coincidence or not, it indisputably exists.
_________________________
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"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#222003 - 09/22/08 03:18 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: 2x6spds]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8271
Loc: Tacoma
What a wonderful and civil place.

I'm not down on Sean (Parque, the Ninja). Sorry, I just can't bear to refer to him as The Ninja any more. ;\) He seems like a good, smart fellow. People I trust and respect (Rich and Jack) have judiciously urged us to assume positive intent.

His approach is interesting and opportunistic. Without having to negotiate driver manufacturing agreements, be responsible for an overall design philosophy, or be burdened by the bulk of enclosures, he found a concept by which he can indulge his passion for audio and leverage business based on an already-successful internet-direct manufacturer while still feeding off of the customers' insatiable and often unquantifiable need to tweak. Effing brilliant. Seriously.

I believe his products make a difference. I believe some people will prefer that difference. I believe some people will find the value proposition in that difference to be compelling.

-----

I hope we can all agree that Sierra Nevada makes a line of pretty delicious craft beers and that the company is reasonably successful.

Yet, there are dedicated SN drinkers out there that want "more". They try other beers, of course, because there is no long-term financial investment that precludes doing so.

What if I was to devise a proprietary "Sierra Nevada Flavor Supplement"? Contains more hops! Live yeast! Just a drop in each glass will make your beer taste fresher, richer, more complex!

Now, apply my example to speakers, or perhaps Kendall Jackson Chardonnay. Some people would be curious enough to try it, and blind testing might even reveal people who prefer the enhanced version.

However, those that place a premium on craftsmanship or design integrity will simply switch to a wine they like better.

Of course it is about the music, the flavor, the sound. And - unfortunately for some - those are NOT the only factors that translate into our enjoyment of the experience! To me, it remains as much about the expression of the artists.

Relative to music, we continue to discuss reproduction of that artistic expression. I choose to honor all those craftsmen integral in providing me with the experience. Because doing so makes me happier.

Often, the genius inherent in this liquid architecture and the mechanisms of delivery transcend even perceived shortcomings in fidelity.
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#222005 - 09/22/08 03:30 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6247
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Not taking a stand either way, I would make two points for consideration.

One: No one is going to buy a Ninja M22 crossover UNLESS Axiom has first sold a pair of M22s.

Two: Though I've not heard a Ninja M22 crossover, I have no doubt that it creates a "difference" in the sound of the speaker. However, "better" is a subjective conclusion. Some may find a Ninjad M22 more to their liking, others may not. IMHO, neither position can, or should, be considered "wrong."
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#222007 - 09/22/08 03:41 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13321
Loc: Iowa
This post is simply amazing, and obvious.
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#222008 - 09/22/08 03:45 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4074
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
I think the best approach for these situations is to get the "o.k" from the engineer/company that designs/produces the speaker and to send them the product for evaluation. Making this process "difficult" (having to buy the product then ship it to Axiom) for the results the people want that are interested in buying these products (Axiom owners) rubs me the wrong way. The onus should not be on us. If Ian likes the product I am sure there is no doubt that Ninja sales go up for the M22v2 upgrade, if he doesn't then people will remain skeptical like they are now anyways.

All speaker companies (especially internet direct) have followings, look at AV123 for example. MLS has a huge influence on his followers. If he told his people that this is the best thing since sliced bread, there would be plenty of people buying it. I am sure the same thing would happen if Ian approved it.


Edited by Dr.House (09/22/08 03:59 PM)
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