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#248488 - 02/22/09 11:33 PM Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
Hello everyone,
I just started to look for a HT and music system to replace my old stereo components. I am interrested by the Outlaw 990 and 7125 amp and also by the Emotiva UMC-1 (to come) and XPA-5 amp. Does anyone have any experience or comments on those products? The reviews on the net look good so far. I like the idea to buy directly from the company hoping to get more for the same amount of money spent...
Also, does anyone have comments on Oppo dvd players?
Thanks!!

(What I have actually: Arcam Delta90, Pierre-Étienne Léon M2, Cambridge Audio CD4 special edition, Audio Refinement receiver)

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#248521 - 02/23/09 10:25 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Toronto
I think I can speak with "some" authority on these products. Emotiva, Outlaw AND Oppo represent unprecedented quality and value for their products. I have Outlaw power amps and subs, an Oppo 980 DVD player(I am waiting for their new BDP 83 Blu-Ray machine) and I am probably going to purchase the new Emotiva UMC-1 pre-pro. I am going this route only because it will probably come to market sooner than the new Outlaw 997 and the UMC-1 will be considerably less expensive since the Outlaw 997 is the pre-pro version of the "flagship" Sherwood-Newcastle 972 recvr. that Axiom will probably offer for sale when it becomes available.

As you can see for some time now I have chosen to go the pre-pro, power amp route because it offers considerable more flexibility and longevity.

Axiom, Emotiva, Outlaw and Oppo all offer great products at great prices with great warranties and unprecedented customer service. You can be assured when you buy their product and you have a question, there will be a person at the other end of the line, unlike most retailers, that actually knows what they are talking about. I can assure you also, that I don't work for any of these companies. So don't worry, with complete 30 day money back guarantees with all of the above, go for it!

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#248541 - 02/23/09 11:35 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: casey01]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8277
Loc: Tacoma
Animal, there have been MANY threads on each of these companies here on the Axiom forums. Most people (including me) love the Oppo products. Some individuals have had very significant problems with Emotiva amps, some have been completely satisfied.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#248552 - 02/23/09 12:31 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: casey01]
icehawk21 Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 93
I can also attest to some of these products as I own some of what you are considering purchasing - the Outlaw 990/7125 combination and an older Oppo DVD player (971).

I don't hesitate to recommend these products. The 990 is a very adept processor, providing all of the non-lossless Dolby/DTS/ProLogic formats. It's easy to set up and offers fairly comprehensive bass management for setting up your speakers/subwoofers. The 7125 provides more than enough power for my M60/VP150/QS8 setup and the combination provides good sound quality.

I'd also rate Outlaw's customer service top-notch. Shortly after purchasing the 990/7125, my home builder's A/V installer blew my 7125 amp when repairing some in-wall speaker runs. Outlaw replaced the amp with a B-stock amplifier free of charge (with the exception of shipping charges - to be expected). Although it was my fault the amp was damaged, they were very accommodating and went beyond my expectations in replacing it for free.

The Oppo DVD player is a great up-converting player. Picture quality is outstanding. Can't speak to their customer service as I haven't had any issue requiring their attention. As far as value/bang-for-buck DVD players, I don't think Oppo can be beat.

Some thoughts, however....

The Outlaw 990 does not provide the latest HDMI spec nor does it offer the latest lossless audio formats. If you are considering upgrading to components that can support full HD video/audio then I'd consider waiting until the 997 comes out.

Alternatively, you could also wait until Axiom carries the Sherwood Newcastle R-972. This would be very similar to the Outlaw 997 but would include an amplifier section.

Additionally, you may want to wait until Oppo offers their new BDP-83 universal blu-ray player. It may be the only DVD player you'll require.

Good luck!

Bryan

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#248560 - 02/23/09 12:57 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: icehawk21]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
There are a lot of people waiting to pair an Outlaw 997 with the Oppo BDP-83.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#248565 - 02/23/09 01:28 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8277
Loc: Tacoma
People with more money than I have \:\(
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#248566 - 02/23/09 01:38 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: tomtuttle]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Upon hearing what I spend on any of my various hobbies, the statement often comes, "you have more money than I do." To which I reply, "no, didn't you just hear what I spent? I don't have any money left."
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#248597 - 02/23/09 03:50 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
Hi again,
Thanks to you all, I really appreciate your reply and comments.
I agree that separate components are more flexible which is why I am looking that way. I want to invest for a long term.
Is there a search engine in the forum? I would like to research more on Emotiva products because, between Outlaw and them, I prefer their design and look. So, if I can have both quality and design that I like... Why not! I am a little bit concern with the post of Tomtuttle. I would like to go further.
Thanks again!
Marc

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#248599 - 02/23/09 03:57 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
There's a Google custom search under The Water Cooler board. The only thread it returns for "emotive" is: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=240472

But I think that's the one that covers the discussion you want.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#248600 - 02/23/09 04:05 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17752
Loc: NoVA
Probably because you're searching on "emotive" instead of "emotiva"
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#248601 - 02/23/09 04:07 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
f1nels Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 19
I myself have an Emotiva LPA1 powering my Axiom M60s and VP150.Very happy with the combo.I am also on the preorder for their UMC1 prepro coming up to replace my old Denon AVR3300.The XPA5 is a great amp.There are many reviews appearing now on the Emotiva forum from customers you can check out.I find these internet based companies( I have delt with Axiom,Emotiva,Carada screens)to offer excellent quality and value.If it wasn't for a company like Emotiva I think the seperates route would be out of the budget for me.
_________________________
INTEGRA DHC9.9,EMOTIVA LPA1,AXIOM M60s,VP150,PARADIGM ADP350s and MINIs,SERVO15,PANASONIC BD30.

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#248602 - 02/23/09 04:11 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Ken.C]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Probably because you're searching on "emotive" instead of "emotiva"


Crud, that would do it.

Here's the link to the Google custom search so you can do a better job than I.

http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=017148760549050246328%3A0ff5k1k9_v8
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#248631 - 02/23/09 08:19 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
Thanks again all for your comments!
The Google link was very helpful!
I feel confident with both companies. I'll choose later on when the new products will be on the market.
Now, I'll be looking for speakers...! :o))
Axiom recommanded the Epic 60-350 to go with these amps. A little bit expensive... I will probably have a chance to listen to them (M60s, VP150, QS8s) in my region in a near future so I'll figure it out. Great iniative from owners of Axiom products!
Thanks again!
Marc

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#248652 - 02/23/09 09:34 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
All the bad Emotiva reviews I read concerned the XPA-2. It has a different circut protective mode that didn't seem to jive with the M-80's too well. Besides that I've heard nothing but good out of Emotiva Amps and Pre-Pro's.
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#248871 - 02/24/09 11:20 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Well I had a problem with the XPA2 and Randy had a problem with the MPS1 (both reportedly have some sort of protect circuit, although they are different generation emo), both paired with m80s.

Has someone else posted a problem with the XPA2/M80 combo (don't see one posted on first page of Peter's search engine)?

I'm still wondering if it was a fluke with my system or another component (663?) rather than the XPA2, we shouldn't overgeneralize from a singe example sans replication, no?
_________________________
"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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#248904 - 02/25/09 09:30 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SatKartr]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 764
Loc: Toronto
I have been looking at the XPA2. In either case whether it was the MPS1 or the XPA2, I would be interested to know exactly how loud these amps had to be cranked up before this happened?

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#249045 - 02/26/09 11:22 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Ken.C]
hietpas Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 32
Loc: Chicago, IL
I've often been interested in doing the pre/pro and amp thing...but I can't get by the fact I can but a very modern receiver like the 3800 that has both for so much cheaper! Why do pre/pros cost so darned much when receivers can do it all for so much less?
_________________________
Denon 3808, M22s, M2s, VP100, Hsu sub

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#249046 - 02/26/09 11:25 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17752
Loc: NoVA
Supply and demand.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#249048 - 02/26/09 11:56 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Ken.C]
hietpas Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 32
Loc: Chicago, IL
Super high mark up?
_________________________
Denon 3808, M22s, M2s, VP100, Hsu sub

Top
#249064 - 02/26/09 02:11 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
A 3808's MSRP is $1,699.

The UMC-1 preprocessor is (will be, if/when) $699. A UPA-7 is $599.

It's $401 cheaper to buy a UMC-1 + UPA-7 pair than it is to buy a 3808.

I have an LPA-1 amp and I intend to buy the UMC-1 if/when it's ever released. Unless I find something better before they get it to market. ;\)

The practical reason for separates over an AVR is that one can upgrade either the amp or processor whenever I want. A good amp can last basically forever, because it does what it does and it's not ever really going to change. But a processor's functions change with the times. New features are added, new technologies are invented. With separates, you can invest in a good amp once, and then just upgrade the processor whenever you need to.

But on a more subjective level, I like the aesthetics of separates.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#249086 - 02/26/09 05:06 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: hietpas
Why do pre/pros cost so darned much when receivers can do it all for so much less?


Why? Because separates do it better, period. Most people are happy with an all-in-one unit, and that's just fine. But you won't find an integrated reciever that pushes 500 watts (I'm talking M80 4 ohm units of course) per channel... even 300 watts per channel is a challenge to find under $5000 bucks. But you can find many amps that push between 300 - 500 watts per channel for around a $1000 dollars or less (you can also spend $10,000 bucks on an amp like that... it's up to you).

I'm not saying everyone should go with separates. There are advantages with both. If you find your all-in-one reciever does the job for you then don't sweat it. But the day you buy an external amplifier and listen to your system with it (loud), you will understand.


Edited by Micah (02/26/09 05:14 PM)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#249087 - 02/26/09 05:16 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
If you're good at something... never do it for free!

I refuse to become a male prostitute. Just sayin'.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#249089 - 02/26/09 05:21 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi hietpas,

Another reason pre-pros and separate amplifiers cost a lot more is that you have to have two separate power supplies, two chassis and so on. There's a lot of duplication, which adds to the cost.

There's also an historical tradition that component parts chosen for pre-pros and separate amplifiers are of better quality--better output devices, more sophisitcated DACs, better shielding and so on.

These may or may not make any audible difference. Typically, a separate pre-pro should have a lower noise floor because there aren't any high-power output stages, which are in the power amplifier.

With inexpensive pre-pros, I'm not convinced there would be any audible difference compared to a good AV receiver.

As Micah has pointed out, a separate power amplifier also allows for much greater power output, better cooling and air flow, beefier heat sinks and in more costly models, really good output devices and larger storage capacitors so the amp can drive very low impedances with lots of current and no overheating.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#249097 - 02/26/09 06:00 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: alan]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: alan
There's also an historical tradition that component parts chosen for pre-pros and separate amplifiers are of better quality--better output devices, more sophisitcated DACs, better shielding and so on.



Yes, and while nobody is here to say that's ALWAYS the case, generally speaking it should be. A reciever (most anyway) is a series of trade-off's. If you have a $1500 dollar reciever sitting next to a $1500 dollar amplifier, you would expect the amplifier to be of much better quality than the one in the reciever. You must also consider heat. A big amplifier (A/B class, the most common) creates a LOT of heat. So they can't stuff a very big amp inside of a power reciever or they would fry the processor.

Same should be the case for a separate processor. If you have a $1500 dollar processor sitting next to the $1500 dollar reciever, then you would expect the parts in the processor to be of much higher value than those being used in the reciever.

(some companies may sell you a $750 dollar processor for $1500 bucks, based on that assumption alone. But their reputation for doing so should catch up to them sooner or later)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249098 - 02/26/09 06:19 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: pmbuko]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
 Quote:
If you're good at something... never do it for free!

I refuse to become a male prostitute. Just sayin'.



Well, at least we've found the modest one of the group.



_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#249101 - 02/26/09 07:05 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
If you have a $1500 dollar processor sitting next to the $1500 dollar reciever, then you would expect the parts in the processor to be of much higher value than those being used in the reciever.

You would think so, but I don't think that is always the case. For instance, the UMC-1 only uses Faroujda video processing. From what I understant, this is middle-of-the-road these days. In contrast the Onkyo 806 (I think) uses a reon chip, which is a high end scaler. The UMC-1 may not be a good example though since it is less than $1000.

On the other hand, the price difference (in quantity) of mid line and high end dacs is less than $10 and some question whether or not you can hear the difference.

I can see the advantage of an outboard amp if you have a very large room, but I think that recent receivers have really narrowed the gap with pre-pros. Now if someone came out with a pre-pro that used studio-grade audio and video processing like Teranex (sp?) and that audio system that Sherwood-Newcastle may release some day (in a receiver!!) then you may have something that is way better than higher end receivers.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249104 - 02/26/09 07:15 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: fredk
You would think so, but I don't think that is always the case.



Nor do I. That's why I kept admitting 'should be the case'.

The more reputable companies you 'should' expect better quality parts. But as with just about anything, you should heavily investigate what ever company you choose to go with.


Edited by Micah (02/26/09 07:17 PM)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249105 - 02/26/09 07:18 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
Another thing that has not been mentioned directly is economies of scale. How many receivers do you suppose Denon sells in a year. They have plenty of opportunity to share both engineering and components across lines as well, so you have a dual whammy of cost competitiveness and volume to make up for reduced per-unit margin.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249107 - 02/26/09 07:23 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Another thing that has not been mentioned directly is economies of scale. How many receivers do you suppose Denon sells in a year.


Good point. The VAST majority of people go with an all-in-one reciever as opposed to a separate amp and separate processor. So you would be right in assuming they have a cost advantage. But my main opinion concerning separates has to do with the amount of watts you can obtain. For those who feel 150 or so watts pushing your M80's is completely adequate, then go with the reciever. If you like your music LOUD, then go the separate route, you'll get more that way.
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249109 - 02/26/09 07:57 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: casey01]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
 Originally Posted By: casey01
I have been looking at the XPA2. In either case whether it was the MPS1 or the XPA2, I would be interested to know exactly how loud these amps had to be cranked up before this happened?


It did not seem to be volume alone for either me or Randy if I have read his threads correctly and I admit not thoroughly because it was about a year earlier when he suffered through similar issues, it was only during reproduction of loud dynamic HTs that the protect circuit kicked in. For example I could listen to music at 105 dbs in a 7300 cu sq ft room with four entryway doors open and it would never shut down (I don't actually listen that loud, that was a test), but at even 90-95 dbs with probably higher peaks HT explosions etc would cause the fault to kick in. From my observations it was always the case that LFEs were involved and not necessarily loud mid to HF sounds.

As Randy has pointed out emo is quick to blame the speakers, in my case I eventually began to question if a cheap Yamaha avr was somehow to blame because I continued to have problems with loud popping sounds, sometimes during LFEs with no loud mid to high HFs, after I returned the xpa2.

It could be a pattern but still seems rare enough to me that I continue to view it as a fluke, even a coincidence perhaps that both Randy and I had the same problem, I'm not sure what it says about the emo protect circuit, if they even are the same electronics.

I think everyone moves toward a space in which things are working properly, it's hard to know sometimes what the problems were that forced one to push ahead, I remain curious about the XPA2/M80 combo but of course would not return on that path, just as Lonnie at Emotiva didn't seem to feel he had time to mess with the XPA2/M80 issue after having failed to resolve Randy's problems with the MPS1/M80 combo.

Anyhow it remains inconclusive to me yet clearly is not a sheer volume issue (cranking it up), for example the LEDs were not pinned when the XPA2 went into protect, it was only during transient dynamic peaks especially ones involving LFEs.
_________________________
"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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#249112 - 02/26/09 08:20 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SatKartr]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
As SK mentioned, it was not always about how loud I was playing material. It did seem to be about dynamics possibly. I remember many movies when I was not listening at unusual levels, say -20 to -15 on the Denon dial, 0 being reference. During some movies that had explosions and bombs going off, normally one of my 80's would shut down, followed by the second one a short time later. The MPS-1 had basically seperate monoblocks for each channel.

Also, I remember times when I was listening to regular classic 80's type rock form about 13ft away at about 85-90dB's on the meter, when they would shut down.

I also compared my Denon 2805 alone rated at 100watts/ch, to the MPS-1 with a variety of different types of music. The Denon would keep going all the way MAX on the volume knob +18 or so, and was maybe introducing some clipping that I was not detecting, and it still sounded pretty good, never shut down.

On the other hand, the MPS-1 would shut down around 0 to +5 on the dial. Was very clean and no clipping, but would go lights out. Something wrong when a beefy amp with ratings to blow away the Denon, would shut down when driving such efficient, easy to drive speakers.

Also, some people seem to forget this problem is not common to only Axioms. I know of at least 2 others that owned Rocket bookshelf speakers having the same issue, they were 4 ohm as well.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#249117 - 02/26/09 08:25 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SatKartr]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
The LEDs may not have had time to react to the peak. The amp's protection circuit could have cut the amp out before the LEDs had time to illuminate. The LFE cutout does not surprise me. It takes more instantaneous power to produce a lower frequency tone than a higher frequency tone due to the longer wavelength of the low frequency tone. There could be many reasons for the trip. It could be that the amp's RMS rating is good, but it's dynamic power (as limited by the protection circuit) can't cut it.
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#249121 - 02/26/09 08:31 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SRoode]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
 Originally Posted By: SRoode
The LEDs may not have had time to react to the peak. The amp's protection circuit could have cut the amp out before the LEDs had time to illuminate.


Absolutely, that was my impression and the point I was attempting to make, it was the peak and not the average volume level (the led readout), Casey01 asked how loud you had to crank up the amp and I think the answer is not very loud, it was not an issue of pushing the parameters of the amp in terms of a high volume application (e.g., heat shutdown).
_________________________
"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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#249135 - 02/26/09 09:26 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SatKartr]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Hmmm... I'm not sure about the MPS-1, but the problems concerning the XPA-2 almost make sense according to Emotiva's explanation, that the M80's actually dip down to 2 ohms when pushed really hard. And am I wrong that the protection system is 2 fold... A. it's there to protect the amp from over working, and B. it's there to protect the speakers? So in the event discribed, it detected a huge pull from the source, and didn't want to send all that power to the speakers and damage them? Of course the XPA-2 couldn't know that the speakers hooked up were Axiom M80's and could handle all that power and then some, all it would know was that it was more power than it was 'supposed' to send to the speaker.

I could be wrong, but that's how I've always understood protection systems like those to run anyhow.
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#249137 - 02/26/09 09:30 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
As JohnK, Alan, Steve, and others have mentioned on another thread, how hard you push a speaker will not lower the ohm rating of the speaker anywhere across the frequency range, it does not work that way.
_________________________
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#249142 - 02/26/09 09:47 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
almost make sense according to Emotiva's explanation

Thats the thing about a good lie spin. It is based on a kernel of what might be the truth.

We have at least two independant measurements of the M80 (audioholics, goodsound network) showing that the M80 never really drops below 4 ohms.

From what others here have posted this is not an issue with all of Emotivas amps have this issue, but the xpa-2 certainly does.

From what Alan posted, one engineer from Emotive admitted they had an issue with the proteciton circuit. Whats a company to do if that problem is not easy to fix?
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249143 - 02/26/09 09:47 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
I didn't want to bring it up, but in reality, increased power could result in an impedance change if the increased power caused the load to substantially heat.

Unfortunately for Emotiva's claim, it would increase, not decrease the impedance of the load.
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#249144 - 02/26/09 09:49 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
I see. Well I certainly don't know enough about ohms to know how it works, so I'll just have to accept their knowledge on the subject as fact.

One thing I was wondering about though... I've always held an amps THD (total harmonic distortion) rating as a measure of it's quality. But when comparing the RPA-2 against the XPA-2, the RPA's THD+noise is .035 percent (not atrocious, but certainly not top notch either) and it's the so-called 'audiophile' amp of the two. Then the XPA's THD+noise is .007, and it's considered to be beefy, not the finess amp of the two. So why do all the reviews on the RPA-2 talk about the clarity as compared to the XPA-2 when it has 7 times the harmonic distortion?

That has me scratching my head.
_________________________
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#249145 - 02/26/09 09:51 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Whats a company to do if that problem is not easy to fix?


They start discounting the amp...

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#249147 - 02/26/09 09:53 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
Nobody has ever been shown to be able to hear the difference between anything like .037 and .007 THD. Once you get below 1% (and considerably higher than that once you get outside our audio sweet spot) you can't tell the difference.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249148 - 02/26/09 09:54 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SRoode]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

It's a shame the XPA-2 has such a bad rep with the M80s, it's fine looking amp at a great price.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249149 - 02/26/09 09:55 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
 Originally Posted By: Micah
One thing I was wondering about though... I've always held an amps THD (total harmonic distortion) rating as a measure of it's quality. But when comparing the RPA-2 against the XPA-2, the RPA's THD+noise is .035 percent (not atrocious, but certainly not top notch either) and it's the so-called 'audiophile' amp of the two. Then the XPA's THD+noise is .007, and it's considered to be beefy, not the finess amp of the two. So why do all the reviews on the RPA-2 talk about the clarity as compared to the XPA-2 when it has 7 times the harmonic distortion?

That has me scratching my head.


When I was considering a power amp, these discrepancies in their descriptions had me scratching my head too. I agree with Fred that it would not be noticeable, but I was still confused that their audiophile amp had more distortion.
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#249155 - 02/26/09 10:02 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Nobody has ever been shown to be able to hear the difference between anything like .037 and .007 THD. Once you get below 1% (and considerably higher than that once you get outside our audio sweet spot) you can't tell the difference.



I see. And actually, now that I've just gone and reread it, the RPA-2 is actually rated at .015 THD, not .035. So it's only a little over twice the harmonic distortion, not 7 times. My bad.
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
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EP800
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Emotiva XPA-3
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#249157 - 02/26/09 10:06 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: wid

It's a shame the XPA-2 has such a bad rep with the M80s, it's fine looking amp at a great price.



Not to worry, the RPA-2 is only $699, and has none of the issues the XPA-2 has with speakers. And if you believe the reviews anyway, has increadible sound and still pushes 350 watts of power to your M80's. And as efficient as they are, I'm assuming 350 watts will be PLENTY!!!


Edited by Micah (02/26/09 10:07 PM)
_________________________
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M80's
QS8's
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EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
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#249158 - 02/26/09 10:08 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

No need for me, mine are hooked up to a Rotel RB 1080.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249161 - 02/26/09 10:09 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
 Originally Posted By: wid
No need for me, mine are hooked up to a Rotel RB 1080.


What is this Rotel you speak of?
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#249163 - 02/26/09 10:16 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10374
Micah, yes I also didn't bring it up in the previous post on "driven hard", but as Steve points out now, the electrical resistivity of metals increases with temperature, by a factor known as the temperature coefficient. So, when a speaker would be driven so hard as to heat up its voice coil wiring, the impedance would increase, not decrease.

On the distortion question, it's not a question of "quality", but rather audibility. The THD figures mentioned are all far below the threshold of audibility when listening to music(generally 1.0% or more), and any review which would somehow relate these numbers to greater "clarity" has no factual basis.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#249167 - 02/26/09 10:21 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SRoode]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249168 - 02/26/09 10:22 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
Heh!

I know Wid! I'm always green with envy when its mentioned.
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#249169 - 02/26/09 10:23 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SRoode]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Oh, I thought you were serious \:\)
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249170 - 02/26/09 10:26 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
Say, that thang's kinda purdy!
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249171 - 02/26/09 10:27 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
The main thing is, it works with no shut downs
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249184 - 02/26/09 10:42 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: hietpas
I've often been interested in doing the pre/pro and amp thing...but I can't get by the fact I can but a very modern receiver like the 3800 that has both for so much cheaper! Why do pre/pros cost so darned much when receivers can do it all for so much less?



Back to this question, I was reading the write up by Tom Andry of Audioholics on the RPA-1 (the older version of the RPA-2) in which he compares the RPA-1 to a Denon 2307CI. Here's a paragraph that sort of answers your question...

"Still, you don't need to do a blind test to know the differences between a horse and a cow. The Emotiva Audio RPA-1 kept pushing the TK-5CT's and the Usher Audio s-520's to their limits rather than holding them back as the Denon did. I suppose "holding them back" is too harsh a term. The Denon faired well with these harder to drive speakers, much better than I would have thought. I was impressed overall with how loud and clean the Denon played but it really wasn't much of a contest with a dedicated two-channel amp that weighs more than almost two of these receivers put together!"


Now obviously he was using less efficient speakers than the M80's, but the point is separates shine if you're really going for ALL OUT performance. Anything 90% and below you would probably be fine with a quality reciever like a Denon. But if you're really into shattering your ear drums, or you want TONS of headroom to shake your house right off of it's foundation during the bomb blasts in your favorite movies... then you should look into getting an amp to truely drive your speakers to their limits.
_________________________
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Emotiva XPA-3
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#249194 - 02/26/09 11:00 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: wid



That is a fine looking amp indeed. And at $1000 dollars it is also very affordable. For me the thing I'm most interested in the RPA-2 is the Type H class power supply which is very efficient and runs much cooler than A/B power. I've heard nothing but good things about Rotel though.
_________________________
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M80's
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Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
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#249223 - 02/27/09 01:47 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17752
Loc: NoVA
Love it. The double blind test isn't to tell you the difference between a horse and a cow, it's to remove the idea that one might be a horse and the other a cow. Way to miss the point, dude...
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#249224 - 02/27/09 01:55 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Ken.C]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11162
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
"All that horsepower, but where's the beef?"

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#249246 - 02/27/09 09:54 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: CV]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
Hi!
I read a lot of threads since I started this one and I am still in the dark... Well, not total darkness but...! :o)

I was not able to find much information about the musicality of the different amps. There's a lot of talks about power and dynamics but not much about anything else beside saying that they are good amps. For my part, I don't really care about a difference of 2 ou 3 hundreds dollars when I will choose my amp, but I would like something that will be in the hi-fi competition rather than on the " brut power" competition, so to speak (I know it's more subtle than that but I want to make an illustration).

I own a stereo Arcam Delta 90 amp with 2 Pierre-Étienne Léon M2. My main source at the time (bought this 20 years ago) was a Lynn turntable. I liked very much the set-up and that british amp was dynamic enough and had the caracteristics that I like. Pure, brillance, good bass, clear sound and a good 3d stereo impression (soundstage, is it?). (20 years ago, that amp was around 1200 or 1300$ to give you an idea). Compare to the NADs at that time, which were very popular, it was more "musical". For example, the Lynn company made vinyls records who were amazing. Listening to a jazz singer Carol Kidd album was an experience. You felt the band was in your living room with her singing in your face...

I want to keep this kind of perfomance switching to 5.1. And I am confused with the comparaison between the XPA-5 (A/B), UPA-7(A/B) or RPA-2(H), or Outlaw products... I don't want to peel off the paint off the walls or crack my window pain when watch a movie. My main concern is to get a very good quality of music when I listen to a good cd in stereo (or in 5.1 with SACD or else). I want musicality first. When I'll get that, I am sure that I will have a HT that will meet my expectation. Am I looking at the right products? I am prety sure I am but I want to make sure... Even if you can try the amps for 30 days, I want to have a pretty good idea before making any move.

Wow... :o) Any thoughts...?

Thanks!!

Marc

P.S. sorry for my english,. I hope everything is understandable!

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#249257 - 02/27/09 11:45 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Queue the 'amps make no difference to sound quality' crew in 5....4....3....2.... ;\)

I have no thoughts, other than I had no idea that english wasn't your native tongue until you said something. You speak/type it better than most of the people I work with. Zero apologies necessary.

Welcome to the forum, BTW. \:\)
_________________________
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Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
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#249265 - 02/27/09 12:00 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
 Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
Queue the 'amps make no difference to sound quality' crew in 5....4....3....2.... ;\)


Many thanks Peter!

I don't understand the quote though... \:\( What do you mean?

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#249267 - 02/27/09 12:14 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
He is being sarcastic, saying that the people who don't believe that amps "sound" different will be along soon. \:\)

In my opinion, amplifiers do just that, they amplify the signal.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#249268 - 02/27/09 12:14 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17752
Loc: NoVA
There are many here (myself nominally among them) who believe that at a given amplification level (ie, same wattage, below clipping), two well designed amps designed to reproduce a flat frequency range will sound exactly the same.

Is that wibbidy enough?
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#249269 - 02/27/09 12:18 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Ken.C]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
That is what I was trying to say, but I never can sound like JohnK for some reason. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#249275 - 02/27/09 12:31 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
I see,
From my own experience, I must say that when I purchased my stuff 20 years ago, I compared different amps mostly similar in specs or wattage with the same equipment in the listening room and you could hear a difference. Maybe when you get to a certain point of quality equipment, that is lest true and the difference is not noticeable.
So, If I follow correctly, I could buy anyone of these amps and it wouldn't make a difference (beside the power), no "musicaly" difference... The only thing to take care of is the source (processor, cd player) and the speakers? I have to say that I have difficulties with that from my own experience.
I am anxious to read the reactions!
Thanks! \:\)

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#249277 - 02/27/09 12:37 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8277
Loc: Tacoma
Dear Marc,

I fear that you may not get the sort of help you seek here.

There are many people who believe that solid-state amplifiers do not sound demonstrably "different". Arcam amps have an excellent reputation, and there is no reason why you should not continue to pursue a brand that has served you well for so many years.

Your interest seems to be toward higher-end products. I will submit that IF solid-state amplifiers DO sound different (and you may have the equipment, room and ears to appreciate such differences), that you perhaps would want to also consider brands like Anthem, Rotel, Sherwood/Newcastle, ATI, Odyssey, Krell, McIntosh, Classe, and B&W.

Another good option might be to simply keep your existing amplifier and use it to power the two front speakers. It seems to me that your main issue may be which processor/pre-amp/receiver to get in order to listen to 5.1 material. You could get any of the newer receivers that have the features you want and use the receiver to power the center and surround channels while having your Arcam power the main speakers.

The new Sherwood/Newcastle pre-amp (which will be sold by Axiom) is much anticipated, and might serve as an excellent control center for your system.
_________________________
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#249279 - 02/27/09 12:41 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: tomtuttle]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
The Drunk Squirrel stole my point. Keep your amp and your cash, no need to upgrade a proven signal path when all you want is to add 3.1 ch to your 2 ch setup.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#249284 - 02/27/09 12:48 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8277
Loc: Tacoma
I ain't drunk. I'm just drinking.
_________________________
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#249287 - 02/27/09 01:00 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: tomtuttle]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
For different considerations, including the craving to get a new grown up toy!, I wanted to get a new set-up. We’ll see…
Contrary of many of the guys here, I don’t have a wife who will stop me from throwing my money at this, only my consciousness!! And of course, my pay check!!

I like this forum! ;\)

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#249288 - 02/27/09 01:03 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
In that case...Krell, Bryston, or Axiom's new $4000 amp should do the trick.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#249292 - 02/27/09 01:14 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
Seriously, I don't want to spend such a big amount. I want to get the best deal with a maximum of good quality audio. I want to maintain the standard I have. That's my dilemma.

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#249293 - 02/27/09 01:16 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Animal]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17752
Loc: NoVA
Keep what you have and buy a receiver act as a pre/pro and to power the surround stuff. Makes sense to me...
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#249300 - 02/27/09 02:10 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Ken.C]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
Animal, this would be a good read for you...

Do all amps sound the same?
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#249307 - 02/27/09 02:38 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
Animal Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Laval, Qc
Thanks!

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#249351 - 02/27/09 05:44 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Yes, but this guy says
expensive amps sound better?




;\)
Just screwing with you, I'm not actually capable of having this debate as I lack the expensive amps or BS (the degree not the bull, I got plenty of bull) to have this discussion. Although i am very intrigued by the topic and would love an answer. I can't decided if I should be envious of Wid for his Rotel Amp or laugh at him for wasting money.
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#249369 - 02/27/09 06:58 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
I can't decided if I should be envious of Wid for his Rotel Amp or laugh at him for wasting money.



Be envious
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#249375 - 02/27/09 07:27 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Personally, I don't see Rotel, Emotiva, NAD and Outlaw falling into the esoteric category....

I just think of them as solidly built.
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#249379 - 02/27/09 07:46 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Wid Offline
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Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
 Quote:
I can't decided if I should be envious of Wid for his Rotel Amp or laugh at him for wasting money.


At least smile, that's what I do when I turn on some tunes and hear how damn good the setup sounds \:\)

I agree with Mark, 1K certainly isn't a big $$$ amp in my book. It sure seems well built though.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249382 - 02/27/09 08:50 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
willscary Offline
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Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
It has been a long time since I last visited, but here goes!

I owned NAD equipment since the mid-80s. Teamed with the classic Klipsch Forte IIs, I had a great stereo system.

When Outlaw Audio was formed, I was among the very first in line. The president of Outlaw is the same incredible engineeer who was head of NAD during the glory years of the late 70's to mid 80's. He went on to form Atlantic Technology, another company that was ahead of its time in many respects.

I bought the original Outlaw preamp processor and I still use it to this day. It does not have HDMI, but my Vizio display does. With the learning remote that came with the pre/pro, I have had no problems. The crossover is among the best in the industry.

I mated the Outlaw to a pair of used Parasound amplifiers from the mid to late 90's that I found on ebay. I bought an SVS subwoofer, a pair of M80s, a 150 center and a pair of QS8 surrounds. Between the Outlaw and the amps, I inserted Behringer 31 band digital EQs and between the Outlaw and the SVS I inserted a Behringer 10 band fully parametric EQ. After several hours, my system was equalized to flat to within a 1db room response.

Lately, I have added a Sony PS3, which my kids use for gaming and we all use for BluRay. This system will, at worst, match any system I have ever heard. The Outlaw is a gem, even if it IS nearly a decade old!

Outlaw also makes great amps, but you can find outstanding lightly used amps on the web for tremendous savings. My Parasounds retailed for about $1,400 when they were new, but I paid less than $600 and they were like new. After nearly a decade of daily use, they are still perfectly fine.

Oppo makes a fine DVD player.

For the money, these brands, including Axiom, are VERY hard to beat.

Bill
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#249383 - 02/27/09 08:59 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
willscary Offline
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Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
I don't know if I trust this guy, and I am no longer fond of ebay, but here is a heck of a bargain if the description is accurate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Parasound-HCA-1203A-...%3A1%7C294%3A50

The old Parasound HCA series with the "a" at the end are outstanding amplifiers. The "a" at the end simply means that it has a dc remote power trigger input so you can use a preamp ike the Outlaw to turn it on.

Bill
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#249385 - 02/27/09 09:05 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
Wid Offline
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Registered: 06/22/03
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Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Seller aside, that's one nice amp. I almost bought a Parasound HCA-1500A when I got the Rotel. If the Parasound dealer were closer I might have bought one instead of the Rotel.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249388 - 02/27/09 09:25 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Animal, this would be a good read for you...

Do all amps sound the same?



This was a good read, I enjoyed it.


However, that particular test was based on differences in 1 watt playing conditions. The real value of 'better' made amps occurs when the volume is increased. As I've stated, if you like your music LOUD, then a separate, well built amp will pay dividends. A cheaper amp (like say something found in a $500 dollar reciever) will not play LOUD music to the same degree a well built amp will play it. The cheaper amp will introduce more distortion and clipping at higher volume levels.

And that's a fact.
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#249392 - 02/27/09 10:01 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
JohnK Offline
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No, Micah; that isn't a fact, it's unsubstantiated nonsense. If a unit has sufficient power to meet the needs of the program material at sane sound levels(as typical modern receivers selling for a few hundred dollars do), there's nothing else that can be accomplished. Unused headroom is simply that: unused.
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#249411 - 02/27/09 10:50 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
Zimm Offline
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Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: Micah
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
I can't decided if I should be envious of Wid for his Rotel Amp or laugh at him for wasting money.



Be envious


Yes, that is where I went by default. I'm thinking a seperate Rotel would make my system sound much better than my Denon AVR 3300. But that article says...not so much. I guess Wid needs to mail it down to me for an in-house test. Sounds fair to me. I could send up a pair of Bose 301's for him to compare to Axioms. Think about it.
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#249412 - 02/27/09 10:58 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
Wid Offline
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That almost sounds good BUT I gave away a set of Bose 901s.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249413 - 02/27/09 11:04 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
Zimm Offline
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Loc: New Orleans
It was worth a try. I really like Rotel. A friend has a new Rotel AVR matched with a set of B&W 600s and it is fantastic.
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#249415 - 02/27/09 11:10 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
Wid Offline
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Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Never hurts to try \:\)
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#249459 - 02/28/09 04:01 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Wid]
FordPrefect Offline
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Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 1334
Loc: Ancaster, Ontario
 Originally Posted By: wid
That almost sounds good BUT I gave away a set of Bose 901s.


then we have something in common
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#249530 - 02/28/09 02:16 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: JohnK]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
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 Originally Posted By: JohnK
If a unit has sufficient power to meet the needs of the program material at sane sound levels(as typical modern receivers selling for a few hundred dollars do), there's nothing else that can be accomplished.



I agree with you, at sane levels most modern recievers are practically faultless. It's those 'insane' times that I've refering to.

You know, like when you have 20 drunk friends over for a party and (insert song of choice here) comes on and one of your buddies screams, "dude that's my song, CRANK IT"!!! Not many low to mid grade recieves sound very pretty once you push them past the 90 - 95% mark. Not in my experience anyway.

Then there was my buddy Pat Trotter, a high school friend of mine I ran into in my mid 20's. He invited me over to his house to hang out and talk about old times and when I got there I saw and became interested in his stereo 'rack' system. It contained at least 3 separate Harmon Kardon pieces, I couldn't tell you what model or anything (I was still completely wet behind the ears about all this stuff at the time), all I can truely remember was the ubber cool little handels they had on either side. He may or may not have been using Harmon Kardon speakers, I really didn't notice, but the music he played sure sounded great. Then he said, "wanna see how loud these play"?

"Well of course, are you kidding... let her rip bro"!!! I unwittingly replied. A quick turn of the knob (and I don't rightly know if it was 50%, 75% or 100% to be honest) suddenly filled the room with terrorizingly loud music, we're talking complete insanity... but at the same time it was clear, undistorted, and totally composed. I seriously doubt he had a subwoofer, because I don't remember an onrush of bass. All I remember was throwing both hands over my ears .8 seconds into the experience because it was far too much to take. This was no critical listening experience, it was just a demonstration of sheer power!

So the question is, is something like that practical? Not really. Is it for everyone? Certainly not. Will it be used very often? I highly doubt it. But the same can be said about the 175 hp my motorcycle pumps out at the rear wheel. That kind of power pushing a 400 pound two wheeled vehicle down the road is absolutely insane! And, well... me likey. \:\)
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#249553 - 02/28/09 05:13 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
willscary Offline
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Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
You guys are comparing a few watts to a few watts.

A decade ago, someone posted Stereo Review power output findings on the web. What it showed was that manufacturer's ratings mean nothing. I seem to recall where a Denon receiver rated at 90X5 or 100X5 only actually met its rating with one channel driven. If all channels were driven, it struggled to produce more than 20 or so wpc.

All receivers and amps are not created equal. Discrete channels reduce crosstalk. This is plainly audible. Better and bigger power supplies mean the difference between producing 20% more than the rated power with all channels driven and producing 20% of the rated power when all channels are driven.

Many receivers are rated as X amount of power per channel from 50-20kHz. this won't get it done in the real world either. This takes away over an octave of the lowest bass. Of course, who cares when everyone has powered subs.

Don't let Consumer Reports fool you. Power is not all the same. How about speaker impedances? Try driving nominal 4 ohm speakers that dip into the 2 ohm range with a $150 Technics receiver. First, the receiver gets warm. Then it gets hot. If it has a thermal overload protection circuit it shuts down. If not, it lets all of its smoke escape. We all know that electronics run on smoke, and once it escapes it doesn't work anymore.

Good amplification can drive complex loads with low impedances and low efficiencies. Poor amplification can not.

To notice a difference in volume, you need to double the power. To notice what we perceive as double the volume, we need 10 times the power. An amp with a small power supply that is rated at 100X5, yet really only puts out 20X5 if all channels are driven, can not be expected to perform as loudly or as cleanly as an amp that is rated at 100X5 and has a power supply that allows it to actually produce 120X5 with all channels driven. Not only that, but the less capable amp will invariably heat up to a point where the circuitry will begin to deteriorate, shortening its life. Heat is a major killer of electronics.

Just my opinion.

Bill


Edited by willscary (02/28/09 05:14 PM)
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#249555 - 02/28/09 05:23 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
Family Man Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I don't know, i have an A1400-8, it seems to hit that insane moment..when everyone is out of the house. Its a very nice amp and doesn't cost to much.
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#249575 - 02/28/09 08:22 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Family Man]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: Family Man
I don't know, i have an A1400-8, it seems to hit that insane moment..when everyone is out of the house. Its a very nice amp and doesn't cost to much.



Really? A $4000 dollar amp isn't 'too much' in your opinion? Ha ha, I'd like to have your bank account my friend! \:o
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#249594 - 02/28/09 10:02 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
SRoode Offline
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Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
I'd love to have the A1400-8, but that price is borderline McIntosh range. To be honest, I think I would rather spend the $4000 on a 2 channel McIntosh, and let the Denon handle the rest.
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#249616 - 03/01/09 03:39 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SRoode]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Whoa... those are some beautiful looking amps!


I've been wondering what the advantage of a 'digital' amp is anyway? I mean they have to convert it over to analog at some point anyhow, so what is the point of amplifying it digitally, only to convert it to analog in the end? Why not just amplify it purely in analog and save yourself the extra step?
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#249619 - 03/01/09 04:24 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
"Digital" is a misnomer when it comes to Class D amps. The don't work with digital data. They take a continuous analog wave form as input and compand that with a high frequency triangle wave which produces a square wave of varying duty cycle. That square wave is used to open and close the output stage valve, finally that output is sent to a low-pass filter to remove the remaining high frequency artifacts.

Class D amps are very efficient because they are either all the way on or all the way off (which combined with the classification of 'D' is why many people call them digital).

I've always liked this note from Audioholics when they were reviewing a Class D amp:
 Quote:
What's important to note is it can be MORE expensive to properly design a Class D amplifier than a conventional linear one. You still need a good, high current power supply in both designs, but the Class D requires costly power inductors for the reconstruction filters and fast switchers being clocked at high frequency to handle the high current demand and also keep the harmonic content pristine within the audio band.


For more information (and there is a LOT of it out there) just Google "Class D amp"
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#249621 - 03/01/09 04:33 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Well thank you for that clarification. I can dig it now!
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#249693 - 03/01/09 06:05 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
Family Man Offline
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Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I am sorry, your right, with regards to amps in that catagory it can be considered expensive. With the economy we are entering now, it is expensive indeed. But with that said..its a great amp. Alot of people are going to technobable you, but if you are looking for pure unadulterated (if that is a word) power for the insane moments you were talking about...this is the amp for you.
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#249698 - 03/01/09 06:16 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
Zimm Offline
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Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: willscary
A decade ago, someone posted Stereo Review power output findings on the web. What it showed was that manufacturer's ratings mean nothing. I seem to recall where a Denon receiver rated at 90X5 or 100X5 only actually met its rating with one channel driven. If all channels were driven, it struggled to produce more than 20 or so wpc.

All receivers and amps are not created equal. Discrete channels reduce crosstalk. This is plainly audible. Better and bigger power supplies mean the difference between producing 20% more than the rated power with all channels driven and producing 20% of the rated power when all channels are driven.

Bill


This seems right to me based on the educated but differing points of view always put forth on this topic both in this forum and in print and my own experience. Fact is, my Denon AVR 3300's 105 w/c will not sound as good as Wid's Rotel at 120 w/c when pumping 5 chans in spite of the fact the 15 w/c difference is mathematically insignificant.

The fact is, the Rotel amp will deliver its full rated power, or more, to all channels under all circumstances. My Denon will give me probably one Chanel of 100 watts. With 2 channels running hard it starts to clip at 78.6 watts (.016% THD). At 5 channels pumping hard - as is very common now with DD and Surround Music - my AVR will not give me 100. I hope it is more than the 20 mentioned above, but clearly not 100 or even 78. I think that is the difference between the lower-end AVR claiming 100 (e.g., Denon 700 series or Onkyo 700 series) and the better AVRs (e.g., Denon 3808 and Integra 8.9) and the moderate separate amps (e.g., Rotel and Bryston 9B). One example I found interesting, if not completely understood, was on the Integra website where between two models with only 10 w/c difference between them, there was a 100% increase in current capacity from 35A to 72A. I'm not positive how the current/volts/watts equation works, but looks like the 72A current supply could deliver more of the 140 promised watts than the 35A model when I beg for it.

I think much of the debate stems from lower listening levels. Much is the same there and audible differences are minute and difficult to describe if heard. But at the edges of the performance envelope - either in terms of dBs or dynamic peaks - the more expensive amps distance themselves in very noticeable ways. Some people don't listen at those levels so the amp sections all sound the same to them and bear out the simple math.

I like to listen to music at very real levels (when I can). Whether that is an acoustic guitar on Dave Mathews, or Ray Brown's stand-up bass plucking away, the accuracy of the illusion is created when the instruments and voices sounds as if in the room. At those levels (upper 90 - low 100 db, to me, in my room) all watts are not the same. At the edges of the amps envelope math does not tell the whole story - microfarad supply capacitors and other power widgets and do-dads that you can't find on the spec sheet seem to make a significant difference. i guess that is where some of the money for Krell and Bryston and McIntosh, etc., goes and why I may appreciate those amps when others here rightfully would not ever notice a difference.


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#249719 - 03/01/09 08:24 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
willscary Offline
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Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
I can't find it...but there were several big brqnds that did poorly and yes, there is a direct correlation between amperage and wpc. The Denons, Sonys, Technics, Onkyos and others that did poorly were your run of the mill 90X5 or 100X5 recievers from 8 or 9 years ago. NAD and Harmon Kardon were two that beat their ratings.

Remember, this was Stereo Revew (or actually, Sound and Vision), so Rotel, Parasound, McIntosh, and other better amplified receivers were not included.

Bill
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#249748 - 03/01/09 10:40 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
JohnK Offline
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Registered: 05/11/02
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I recall the site that posted that info. It would now be rather badly dated(the latest was about 2003)and was misleading even several years ago. In one column it showed the advertised power rating, which in most cases was the more realistic 2-channels driven at full power for at least five continuous minutes rating complying with the FTC power regulations. Then in another column it showed a 5 or 6 channel driven result, which was of course significantly lower than the rating with 2 channels driven. The implication was that the receiver had "failed" to meet its advertised power rating, which would be a violation of the federal regulations, and which wasn't true of course.

More sophisticated analysis of power requirements recognizes that driving all channels simultaneously at full power isn't a realistic home audio scenario, regardless of the number of channels in the source material. Audioholics, for example, has been quite clear on this and tests with one and two channels driven.
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#249757 - 03/01/09 11:24 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: JohnK]
willscary Offline
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Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
I don't know...If I buy a receiver that is rated at 90X6, like my 7 year old Denon, I expect 90X6, not 90X1. My reciever is one that does not put out its rated power. I believe it actually produces just under 40X6 with all channels driven. That is over 3db of headroom lost! This is unacceptable.

On the other hand, my Parasound amp is rated at 85X5 and you know what? It puts out 98X5 into 8 ohms and much more into 4 ohms, all channels driven. My other Parasound amp does even better. It puts out nearly 20% more than its rated output with both of its two channels driven.


Edited by willscary (03/01/09 11:26 PM)
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#249759 - 03/01/09 11:33 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
Will. Did the Denon litterature actually state 90w x 6 channels? I know marketing types use weazel words all the time, but if you read carefully, they usually have a different implied and actual meaning.

Whenever I have looked at specs on receivers, they have been very clear on how much is delivered with a specified number of channels.

OK, I went to the Denon site and took a look at one of their products and I see what you are getting at. The marketing specs state XXXw x 7, but if you look at the specs in the back of the manual it gives 150wx2 into 8 Ohms (the FCC 'spec').

I also see that Parasound lists their amps as XXXw x Y channels, all channels driven.

I guess, having done sales & marketing for 15 years, I just automatically put on my waezel word filter every time a look at anything in the way of a brochure/specs. If I don't see all channels driven specifically, I assume its not.


Edited by fredk (03/02/09 12:13 AM)
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#249775 - 03/02/09 01:01 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
It's it the FTC not FCC. The Federal Trade Commission got involved just because of manufacturers were stretching the truth a little too much. If a receiver is rated as "FTC" it means all channels driven with a 20 to 20k Hz signal. Anything else is usually means a 1k Hz sine wave, or not all channels, or a combination.
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#249777 - 03/02/09 01:04 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
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And this lab test of Denon's 3808 shows it does achieve the rated output all channels driven. I think many of the new avr's now do indeed meet an all channels driven spec, at least most of the ones I have recently seen tests for. Yes, they are at the 1% THD threshold but still achieve the rated power output. I know many of the seperate amps achieve the rating with well below 1% THD, but even at 1% I doubt most people would hear it.
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#249787 - 03/02/09 07:04 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: jakewash]
willscary Offline
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Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
We are talking about a decade ago. Also, the highere end denons have always been close to or above rated power. the cheaper models, however, were not even close.

Perhaps I stepped on some Denon owner's toes. I also have always known about the marketing hype. In another post I wrote about one channel driven from 50-20khz. 75X2@1khz is another good one.

Some of these manufacturers play the watts game just like auto manufacturers played the horsepower game...until they got caught. Who were the two worst offenders in the automobile power scam 3 years ago? Honda and Toyota.

Bill
_________________________
"Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"...Go Packers! and Go Badgers!

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#249793 - 03/02/09 08:41 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
At 5 channels pumping hard - as is very common now...


I realize that multi-channel music is now more common and surround sound is now better-mixed than it was in the past, but is it really common for all 5 channels to be "pumping hard"? I can't think of any material I own that really demands a full-signal sound be sent to all speakers at the same time for any significant portion (if any) of the recording. On top of that, since most people cross their surrounds over at ~80 Hz, it's going to be very uncommon for the receiver to require any significant amount of power to drive the surrounds.

I agree that if a company advertises 150 x 7, it should be capable of delivering that, but as far as meaningful tests go, the results of a "2-channels driven" power test would be far more valuable to me than 7.

Jason
_________________________
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#249797 - 03/02/09 10:30 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: myrison]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the link Jay. I know that the Audioholics Denon amp tests showed that they delivered more than the XXXw x 2 chanels driven, but had not seen any all channels driven tests.

 Quote:
I agree that if a company advertises 150 x 7, it should be capable of delivering that

And what exactly does 150 x 7 mean. One channel at a time, two three...? It could mean any of those.

So, it is entirely possible that the lower one goes in the Denon line, or any other manufacturer, the less maximum power one gets no matter which way you slice it. In their literature Denon represents no more than two channels driven for that 150 x 7 rating.

Interesting stuff.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249809 - 03/02/09 11:27 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I think there is more value in the all channels driven figure now than ever before. I was listening to Radiohead in 5ch Stereo when reading this tread, and I can tell you that each was getting a workout. Same with a recent viewing of Master and Commander, where the sounds of the sea and cannon fire below decks seems to force all speakers to perform. I want all 105 of my watts available...dang it!

Query: If I bought a 2 ch separate amp for L/R, would that mean my Denon would delivery more watts before clipping to the remaining 3?
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#249812 - 03/02/09 11:30 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10853
Loc: Central NH
Yes. That's often a large part of the reason some go with outboard amps, even if not much more powerful than the receiver's ratings: It frees up the receivers' capabilities for the remaining channels.
_________________________
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#249814 - 03/02/09 11:32 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I want all 105 of my watts available...dang it!

Which channel would you like them delivered to? ;\)

Good question. For the Denon I looked at, each channel was listed at 150W so I would presume that it will deliver up to that depending on what is available from the power supply.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249815 - 03/02/09 11:33 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: willscary
We are talking about a decade ago
It didn't sound that way to me while reading the tests and your opinions. It sounded like you might still be thinking this way about todays avr's as well.

 Quote:
Perhaps I stepped on some Denon owner's toes.
No stepping on toes, I just happen to own a Denon and have that particular lab test bookmarked for easy access. I have seen tests of Onkyo and Yamaha's that prove the point as well.

 Quote:
Some of these manufacturers play the watts game just like auto manufacturers played the horsepower game...until they got caught.
Unfortunately this still holds true, see Sony for examples. I have found that most of the more common and spoken of names, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo etc are true to their specs throughout their respctive line ups. There have been certain models throughout the years that have come up short for some reason, usually the next years model has corrected the issue.
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#249816 - 03/02/09 11:43 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
... are true to their specs throughout their respctive line ups.

No doubt, but none of those manufacturers actually give an all channels driven specification to tell you what they are capable of in terms of total power draw. Any specification sheet I have read lately has shown only two channels driven and the number was always the same as the watts x 5/7 number.

So, an amp that can deliver up to 150 watts to any of its 5 channels, but only lists 150x2 in its specs only promises 300w over 5 channels, even if, as with the 3808, it is capable of more.
_________________________
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#249823 - 03/02/09 12:21 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
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Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The spec sheet for the 3808 shows Fronts L + R, Center, then side surrounds L + R and back surrounds L+R and they do state "Identical Quality and power for all 7 channels". I know this is not the same as a true all channels driven spec, I think H/K is one of the few that reports in their specs an all Channels driven rating, at least on the avr146/154 I just looked at.

I did look at Sony's spec sheet for the STRDG820 and no where do they state identical power, they just say it has 710W available and the specs only show 2 channels driven and a spec for 10% THD into 5 channels \:\( .

It does take some reading between the lines.
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#249824 - 03/02/09 12:21 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Integra is giving a bit more information that others I have looked at. The comparison of the power from various test methods is interesting. Now, someone tell me what parts would make the watt rating in each category stay the same - power supplies, capacitors, do-hickeys, whatchamacallits?
Integra 9.9
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#249828 - 03/02/09 12:35 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The Total power is limited by the power supply and the rest is decided on by the design of the system. As I mentioned the Sony has 710W available but at 10% THD to all 5 channels, this would sound terrible so a realistic listing might be 10-35W/Ch(just a guess) and at this level only a small room with lower volumes would work well with this receiver.
This is where that minimum spec listing comes into play. Manufacturers are ALLOWED to list there specs as one channel driven and the rest at 1/8 power. It takes a much smaller P/S and amp to do this. It is from this spec that many low end avrs are able to get such high Watt/ch rattings, because they in fact can achieve the specified rating on any of the channels just not all at the same time.
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#249830 - 03/02/09 12:36 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
Here is an example of what I am talking about from Zimms link:

 Quote:
7 ch x 280 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven

I read this as the receiver having a maximum of 280w available to the amp stages no matter which way you slice it. so, thats 140w x 2 channels driven or 40w x 7 channels driven. Yet, there is that 7 ch x 280 w again, implying to the unwary, which is most of the buying public, that the receiver is capable of a lot more.

Jay, given your link to the 3808 testing, its value went up quite a bit in my eyes based on it being able to deliver a lot of power to any given channel if required.

Hi Johnk. Yes, I know, all channels are never going to be driven equally, but it is nice to know that with the 3808 you will have a full 150w available at all times. On the flip side, you may end up with considerably less power to your fronts with the integra because of the power supply.

That would not make much difference to me in my current setup, but for people with larger rooms, it is something to be aware of.
_________________________
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#249832 - 03/02/09 12:44 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Actually, as I have said before, if you are listening in a 5-6-7 channel stereo mode you WILL need nearly all available power to all channels driven when listening at high volumes. This is about the only time I think anyone would ever need near full power to all channels, so this feature alone makes the all channels driven spec that much more important.

I found the integra specs a little confusing as on the side it states all channels, then in the specs it speaks of 2 channels driven at 8,6,4 ohm impedances, weird.
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#249833 - 03/02/09 12:45 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Ok, well while the battle rages on as to whether or not today's AVR's reach their claimed 120, 135 or 150 watts x 7 or not, let me quietly point out that the M80's (even the QS8's for that matter) are rated to handle 400 watts. And thus, as I've stated many times, for those of you who enjoy the way a reciever powers your system and want not to explore the upper regions of their capabilities, then more power to you (or should I say less? Oh never mind).

However, there are those who like a bit 'more', and that's where separates can take you, to the land of 'more'. And unlike the, "can you hear differences in amplifiers" debate, there is no arguement as far as power goes. More power = higher volume. We can go round and round about how loud a Denon will play M80's (I have a Denon, and yes it plays loud), but a good separate amp will play them louder, end of story. Not twice as loud mind you, no one here is claiming that. The differences in volume levels are not enough to convince most AVR users to make the switch, that's fine. But there are differences, and human nature has always driven some to explore the absolute furthest boundaries out there (that's how man made it to the moon. Was going to the moon practical in any way? Nah, we just wanted to see if we could actually do it).

People who invest in separate's are people who want the ability to squeeze the absolute most out of their system even if they rarely ever need/use it. To them it's not about whether or not a Denon can push an M80 to acceptable levels of performance. To them driving a 400 watt M80 with a 200 watt amp is like driving an 800 hp Ferrari Enzo around with a gas peddle that only goes half way to the floor. "400 hp is more power then anyone in their right ming would ever NEED". Yeah, but some still want access to the full 800 reguardless.

Logic, or a sense of rationality has nothing to do with it.
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#249834 - 03/02/09 12:54 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
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you can't compare watts with HP, and fyi, we never went to the moon. \:\)
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#249836 - 03/02/09 01:03 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
No one is denying the benefits of a high power amp over a 100W/ch avr for high volumes, the question is will a low end separate system that costs the same as the all in one solution of a known producer like the 3808 sound any better/louder? The answer, I believe, is no.
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#249837 - 03/02/09 01:07 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Agreed; you had me going until the Moon thing. Take off the tinfoil hat and return to earth Melvin.
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#249840 - 03/02/09 01:24 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
I'm out of popcorn. Does anyone else need anything while I'm up? \:\)

I'm impressed that we've managed to keep this civilized for this long. Kudos guys!

And of course we've been to the Moon. Just ask Bing Gordyn.
;\)


_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
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#249847 - 03/02/09 02:24 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Never made it to the moon? Neil Armstrong is a fraud???


Bah, next you'll try to convince me O.J. Simpson really did do it!
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#249849 - 03/02/09 02:39 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
you can't compare watts with HP


But you can...
http://www.google.com/search?q=1+hp+in+watts
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
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#249851 - 03/02/09 02:57 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
mrmeng430 Offline
regular

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Arlington, TX
I've my XPA-2 run my 2 M80s as mains for about 2 and a half months now and have not experienced any shut downs. Before buying the amp, I asked Emotiva about the shut downs and was told to connect the M80s in stereo mode, not bridged. It was a few steps up in soundstage and clarity compared to the Behringer 2500 I was using to power the M80s before. Now my M80s sing with such beauty. I guess the Karma police has been nice to me. Hope this helps. M80s/XPA2 FTW!!!
_________________________
M80s,2 M22s & VP100,4 QS8, SVS PB-12 Axiom EP125, Emotiva XPA-2 & XPA-5,Onkyo 805, Yamaha 663

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#249852 - 03/02/09 02:59 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Yeah, but some still want access to the full 800 reguardless.

I was gonna say, not in my room, but then I went to the power calculator page and it told me that I will get a mere 110db average listening level at my primary seat with 800w.

Well, OK, its still not really cause 95db hurts me , but it still amazes me how quickly speakers can suck up power.
_________________________
Fred

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#249853 - 03/02/09 02:59 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: jakewash]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
No one is denying the benefits of a high power amp over a 100W/ch avr for high volumes, the question is will a low end separate system that costs the same as the all in one solution of a known producer like the 3808 sound any better/louder? The answer, I believe, is no.



Ok, and I'm not denying that either. I'm just trying to keep this thread on track. Remember Animal, the guy who started this? He was asking about separates, and I believe in page 2 of this thread someone brought up that an AVR does it, "better, for less". I'm just trying to point out that there are indeed differences and what they are since the last 5 or 6 pages seem only to do with which AVR actually meets their rated specs.

Just sticking up for Animals side of things, that's all ;\)


Edited by Micah (03/02/09 03:04 PM)
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#249857 - 03/02/09 03:10 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
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Who is this 'animal' person, original poster, a thread on track? Remember where which forum we are on........;)
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#249862 - 03/02/09 03:14 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
And it is a good point Micah. Just looking at Emotiva, for about $1500 you could soon get a 5.1 setup with 200 (real???) w/c. Assuming all the other bells and whistles were the same - I know, they aren't - that set up would be "better" than a $2000 Denon 480?. In the past, I don't think you had near as much real competition between the classes. Now, separates are starting to force their way into the discussion of sub $5000 (and $4K, and $3K) units. Good news for all of us, even if I/we stay with the AVR forever. Competition helps consumers.
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#249873 - 03/02/09 03:33 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Ah, but you are still 2 channels short, that 48XX has 7 channels, I know not many use them, but then you are able to run a second zone off these unused amps, this is where the convenience and feature packages come into the bang for buck formula of avr's vs seperates. So if a person wanted that second zone from a seperate system you now have to look for another 2 channel amp and the price of seperates goes up and is no longer as economical.
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#249881 - 03/02/09 03:59 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Well, unless, like me, you have several old AVRs around so you only need an unpowered zone. But I get your point. Apples to Apples is hard to find in this debate. The gap, I think, is more that a company like Outlaw or Emotiva can't afford really good scalers so the video (and networking and XM, etc) all fail to meet the standards of Denon or Onkyo or HK. You need economies of scale and those smaller companies will not likely not be able to supply some of the goodies the big boys do.
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#249882 - 03/02/09 04:02 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: jakewash]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Forget 'better', we'll just say a choice with different advantages. As with anything else, "God created all men equal". Ok so how do you explain a 7 foot tall man standing next to a 4 foot tall man?


God - "ok ok, so I lied"...


Or perhaps he meant their different strengths add up to two equal men? Ah, that could be it.
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#249887 - 03/02/09 04:08 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
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I know we've been to the moon, I saw the flag the other night. ;\)


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#249897 - 03/02/09 04:20 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: SirQuack]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10853
Loc: Central NH
Cool sub Casing.
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#249900 - 03/02/09 04:28 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6607
Loc: It's all about the location.
Here is what Randy has been doing in his spare time. ;\)
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#249903 - 03/02/09 04:31 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Adrian]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
I think that was RickF's house at the 36sec mark... ;\)
_________________________
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#249904 - 03/02/09 04:31 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Adrian]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
NO, NO. It goes in front of the projector to make 965" image of the Moon!
_________________________
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#249922 - 03/02/09 05:49 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Zimm]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
I'm beginning to understand that high end audio circles are populated by mostly A.D.D.survivors. And when I mention A.D.D. I'm talking about the... hey look, a pretty flower.
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#249939 - 03/02/09 07:59 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
No, A.D.D. is:

Recorded on analog tape
Mixed in the digital domain
Mastered digitally
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#249953 - 03/02/09 10:46 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: Micah
I'm beginning to understand that high end audio circles are populated by mostly A.D.D.survivors. And when I mention A.D.D. I'm talking about the... hey look, a pretty flower.

\:D \:D
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#249957 - 03/02/09 11:56 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: ClubNeon]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7040
Loc: Canada
That and OCD. OK, this is starting to bug me. I have been reading spec sheets to see what they say and its all obfusculated up. One Denon gives a max power rating, the 3808 does not. Maranz 7002/8002 is the same. It only gives the max per channel info.
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#249960 - 03/03/09 12:40 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
willscary Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 129
Loc: east central Wisconsin
I remember Julian Hirsch, the head tester for Stereo Review, giving less than stellar reveiws of amps and receivers that didn't make their specified output.

I just went to Sound and Vision online, and apparently it is now perfectly OK to come up short. I read glowing reviews of a new Denon, an Onkyo and a few others. Amazing how they are rated at, for example, 140X7, but then in parenthesis farther down it says (two channels driven). In fact, I believe it was an Onkyo with a rave review. The sentence was along the lines of "with one channel driven, it easily beat its specified power, and it came close to its rating, even with 5 channels driven." Of cours, all 7 channels was a bit less output yet.

This is a load of crap. Amplifiers and receivers should be rated as watts per all channels driven into 8/4 ohms from 20-20k at .01% distortion. They should need to meet their ratings.

Heck, one of the reviews showed that a 90X7 receiver put out 85x5 and 80X7, but then their was an asterisk behind the results. When I looked at the asterisk on the bottom of the test results, it said that this power was sustained for several MILLISECONDS before thermal protection reduced power output to 1/3 of that. Is that somehow real world? This tells me that if I bought this 90X7 reciever, I could expect protection to limit it to about 27X7. Come on...that is 6db of headroom lost!

I am not trying to be a butthead, but this is wrong. Don't play games. List power as watts per channel continuous (not short transient bursts), all channels driven into 8 and 4 ohms (dual ratings) from 20-20kHz (full spectrum white noise, not a simple 1kHz sine wave) at .01% THD (to keep all the players honest!).

Apples to apples!
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"Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"...Go Packers! and Go Badgers!

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#249962 - 03/03/09 12:57 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: pmbuko]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko

I refuse to become a male prostitute. Just sayin'.


Good for you. Keep doin' it for free. There are so many poor unfotunate ladies who cannot afford to pay. You provide a valuable service to humanity. I can tell, you are just a giver. It's a gift, really. ;\)
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Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#249992 - 03/03/09 11:21 AM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: willscary]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
The watts ratings has gotten so bad in the car audio industry that they finally developed a standard to published watts - CES i think. Not sure what the testing details are, and could all be hype, but given that only the higher end companies seem to use CES watts, i think it is have a good impact on truthfulness. I wish the home industry would do something similar. It is frustrating and forces you trust companies. Not good.
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Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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