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#335661 - 01/26/11 12:31 PM There here...
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
My speaker's finally arrived. I settled on the M80's, QS 8's and VP180. Man is that center big! The wife kept asking me "did I need that one that big?" Later, when we watched LOTR - BD edition, she noted how clear the dialog was, so the question became moot. Setting up didn't take long and I ran the receiver's speaker setup (Pio's MCACC) all in about an hour.

First impressions. I played Saving Private Ryan, the opening battle scene. I was immediately dismayed at how loud I had to crank the volume to get descent sound. Later I discovered the Poineer's MCACC had reduced all the speakers by -7 db (average). I believe my HT room is too reflective and the receiver had to reduce everything for it's adjustments. I'll have to get the spl meter from work to adjust things myself. I set the MCACC to off and things improved immediately. Also I'm going to look into sound deadening for the room.

After this test I put on a few cd's. One thing I've read about these speakers being unforgiving is true. Only well recorded material shines! I tried both 2 channel and 7 channel stereo. Both were excellent but I preferred the 7 channel. I walked all around the room and noticed the sound completely filled in everywhere I stood. The full and seemless sound of these speakers is amazing. Later we settled down to watch LOTR's "The Two Towers" in BluRay. As I said before the dialog was steller. I also noted that campared to my old speakers the differences were more subtle than I expected. This was surprising since my old speakers were largish bookshleves of a 2 way design.

The sound and movie (LOTR) is very familar to me so comparing differences were easy to spot. Clearity and dialog were improved. Dynamic's were very close with the new system edging out the former. Bass to high range again were similar. However the real differences were in the subtetly's of the overall sound. Like comparing fine wines or scotches (pick your poison). Sounds I have become accustomed to were more varied and detailed. There is more texture in all sound ranges. These new speakers are more an improvement in quality than quantity, compared to my old speakers.

I have much more work and testing to do, as evidenced above. If anybody has suggestions regarding Pioneer Elite receiver's and setting's please chime in! As for my HT room, it's 20' x 11.5' x 7.5', just on the lower side, sizewise, for running this system. Sound deadening to deal with relections I feel will best be addressed at the end's of the room. We sit a little further back than half way, about 14'. The QS 8's are located at this point along the side wall at about 6 - 6.5' high. If anyone has suggestions for reducing reflections let me know!
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

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#335665 - 01/26/11 12:40 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Were all the speakers set to -7? That shouldn't happen. What was the sub set to? If the sub was closer to 0, or positive, try bringing up the volume on the sub slightly.

It won't be reflections that makes the receiver trim a channel, but just the efficiency of the speaker. I don't have M80s, just '22s, so I don't know if the -7 is appropriate, but it does seem like a lot.

Also, what was your final master volume setting that you considered "cranked"? I listen to films at -15 dB all the time.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#335667 - 01/26/11 12:53 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
Argon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Oak Ridge, NC
Chris,
When I listen to cable TV, a comfortable (with spouse in the room) level is around -24 to -22. When I listen to DVD the same, apparent level is around -20 to -18. Blu Ray runs -16 to -14. Is there a technical explanation for the difference?
_________________________
"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill

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#335669 - 01/26/11 01:15 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Hi Zuter,
I have the Pio SC-05. I run MCACC but then I defeat the EQ setting it applies (my personal preference). The one thing I really like about the MCACC is the standing wave correction - definitely go through and measure it at 3 spots in the advanced mode to cover your prime seating positions. Other than that I also go back and tweak my speaker levels manually with my Radioshack SPL meter. I like to set the center at 0dB offset and the other 6 channels relative to that so they give the same SPL in the prime seat. The reason I do that is I will often bump up the center for movies and back to 0 for music - it's just easier to remember my base calibration setting that way blush

I have smaller speakers (M22's) so set the X-over at 80Hz. Because of the QS8's you might want to do the same as you can't do per speaker X-over in the Pio's (unless this has changed recently). What sub are you running?

Hope that helps,
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#335672 - 01/26/11 01:26 PM Re: There here... [Re: Argon]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: Argon
When I listen to cable TV, a comfortable (with spouse in the room) level is around -24 to -22. When I listen to DVD the same, apparent level is around -20 to -18. Blu Ray runs -16 to -14. Is there a technical explanation for the difference?

There's just no standard for mixing level. Also audio with more dynamic range compression applied will seem louder over-all.

I find I listen to even TV at -18 up to -15, but that's from a Dolby Digital source, I don't know how you get your audio from cable sources.

CDs are usually -30 to -24.

(Yes, I'm odd, I always keep my volume at a multiple of 3.)
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#335673 - 01/26/11 01:53 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
To echo Chris's comments on variability in levels, it's true. The live in HD broadcasts from the Metropolitan Opera in New York are remarkably (and annoyingly) low in level, perhaps to allow for exremely loud crescendoes and the full dynamic range with full orchestra and chorus. I find I have to run my AV receiver as loud as -10 dB.

Those broadcasts are mixed in Dolby Digital 5.1 from a remote truck parked behind Lincoln Center. When I've walked past the remote truck I've sometimes thought of knocking on the door and saying, hey, get those levels up a bit!!

On CDs, I've found variations of 15 to 20 dB from one low-level disc to some "hot" ones.

Regards,
Alan
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#335675 - 01/26/11 01:57 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
Were all the speakers set to -7? That shouldn't happen. What was the sub set to? If the sub was closer to 0, or positive, try bringing up the volume on the sub slightly.

It won't be reflections that makes the receiver trim a channel, but just the efficiency of the speaker. I don't have M80s, just '22s, so I don't know if the -7 is appropriate, but it does seem like a lot.

Also, what was your final master volume setting that you considered "cranked"? I listen to films at -15 dB all the time.


I currently have no sub. The 3 fronts are set to large and QS8's to small. Yes, all speakers were set from -6.5 to - 7.5 db under MCACC. With my old system -30 to -25 was very good, -20 if it was a quite movie - this would be very loud for most movies though! When I used the MCACC setting I had it closer to -10 before the sound was comparable to my old "loud" setting.
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

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#335678 - 01/26/11 02:03 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
It's the goal of the receiver to get -0 dB to be "reference", so it just may be that the M80s are that efficient.

The number on the display doesn't really mean all that much, and really can't be directly compared between receivers, and that goes doubly so for different brands.

Don't worry what the number reads, just set the volume to a comfortable listening level for you. As long as it isn't in the + range, you'll be fine (the noise floor rises quickly when you get above 0).
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#335679 - 01/26/11 02:06 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10394
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Congratulations zuter! As Chris mentioned and the others, you really can't judge by the speaker settings. Your old system could very well have had a boosted midbass hump or some other anaomoly that affected the settings and your perception of 'loud'.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#335687 - 01/26/11 02:56 PM Re: There here... [Re: alan]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10682
Loc: Central NH
Alan, anytime I'm doing a live digital recording I allow for an awful lot of headroom, just in case. If these are being broadcast live, the remote truck people are likely doing the same.

If I'm recording a mono source with a two track recorder(say, a voiceover), I always record one channel at a level that I believe will peak at zero...and the other channel 8~12 dB down from that to cover my bases. Usually I can use the hotter channel (with the better S/N) but at least I've got the second channel to draw from if I need it!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#335688 - 01/26/11 03:03 PM Re: There here... [Re: jakewash]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: jakewash
Congratulations zuter! As Chris mentioned and the others, you really can't judge by the speaker settings. Your old system could very well have had a boosted midbass hump or some other anaomoly that affected the settings and your perception of 'loud'.


Thanks. I still have the setting for the old speakers with spl adjustments in the Poi's memmory. I'll look at them tonight. I tried this setting on the Axiom's which boosted the sound (volume). I found the MCACC off or EQ off to be the best , to our ears, overall.
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

Top
#335690 - 01/26/11 03:11 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I turn off everything but the phase alignment on my Pioneer. No EQ or standing wave. Oh, I did enable Loudness, which boosts bass at lower listening levels.

I found the EQ to sound processed. The standing wave seemed to some effect, but then I noticed the bass lost impact on tracks. My room is octagonal so standing waves are less of an issue.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#335692 - 01/26/11 03:14 PM Re: There here... [Re: cb919]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: cb919
Hi Zuter,
I have the Pio SC-05. I run MCACC but then I defeat the EQ setting it applies (my personal preference). The one thing I really like about the MCACC is the standing wave correction - definitely go through and measure it at 3 spots in the advanced mode to cover your prime seating positions. Other than that I also go back and tweak my speaker levels manually with my Radioshack SPL meter. I like to set the center at 0dB offset and the other 6 channels relative to that so they give the same SPL in the prime seat. The reason I do that is I will often bump up the center for movies and back to 0 for music - it's just easier to remember my base calibration setting that way blush

I have smaller speakers (M22's) so set the X-over at 80Hz. Because of the QS8's you might want to do the same as you can't do per speaker X-over in the Pio's (unless this has changed recently). What sub are you running?

Hope that helps,



Hi and thanks. As I said to jakewash the EQ off setting was more desirable than the MCACC setting. Not real sure what the standing wave does or are, for that matter! Didn't hear much, if any, difference between EQ off and MCACC off. My Pio doesn't use 3 positions only 1 with 5 memeory slots. I never adjust anything once I set it, if the dialog is to low I just turn up the volume! I leave the x-over at 80 and no mine's just 1 setting for all.
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

Top
#335694 - 01/26/11 03:19 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Standing waves are low frequency sounds that tend to "pile up" in a room because of its parallel surfaces (ceiling to floor, and opposing walls). Pioneer includes a feature to find the three largest bass peeks and attenuate (cut) them down.

EDIT: If you happen to have a room where two or more of the parallel surfaces are equidistant, you're really screwed. smile


Edited by ClubNeon (01/26/11 03:21 PM)
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

Top
#335695 - 01/26/11 03:25 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
It's the goal of the receiver to get -0 dB to be "reference", so it just may be that the M80s are that efficient.

The number on the display doesn't really mean all that much, and really can't be directly compared between receivers, and that goes doubly so for different brands.

Don't worry what the number reads, just set the volume to a comfortable listening level for you. As long as it isn't in the + range, you'll be fine (the noise floor rises quickly when you get above 0).


I've always thought the louder you had to turn it up the less efficient and more power you wasted! My Pio seems to want to turn everything down, perhaps that's a measure of efficiency but having to turn it up so much seems counter intuitive.

As I said I need to look over everything carefully before I make other changes. If I get the spl meter this weekend I'll play more. Even with my last system until I spl'ed it I wasn't completely happy!
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

Top
#335696 - 01/26/11 03:27 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
Standing waves are low frequency sounds that tend to "pile up" in a room because of its parallel surfaces (ceiling to floor, and opposing walls). Pioneer includes a feature to find the three largest bass peeks and attenuate (cut) them down.

EDIT: If you happen to have a room where two or more of the parallel surfaces are equidistant, you're really screwed. smile


Thanks for the info...learned something new today smile
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

Top
#335698 - 01/26/11 03:33 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8135
Loc: Tacoma
Quote:
If you happen to have a room where two or more of the parallel surfaces are equidistant, you're really screwed.


Cue Mark.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#335699 - 01/26/11 03:34 PM Re: There here... [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10682
Loc: Central NH
::runs away equidistantly screwed::
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#335702 - 01/26/11 03:50 PM Re: There here... [Re: MarkSJohnson]
BobKay Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 2975
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
I could stop by with my Sawzall and Sledge. No wall has ever gotten away from me intact.

Or, we could put ANOTHER wall in your room. Then you can have TWO rectilinear listening spaces.

Hell, why didn't YOU think of that. Jeesh!
_________________________
If I didn't have a shrink, all of my friends would think there's something wrong with me.

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#335709 - 01/26/11 04:09 PM Re: There here... [Re: BobKay]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8135
Loc: Tacoma
He likes his problem just the way it is.

We've all tried, Bob.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#335710 - 01/26/11 04:11 PM Re: There here... [Re: tomtuttle]
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17697
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, he keeps calling the police.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#335712 - 01/26/11 04:14 PM Re: There here... [Re: BobKay]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Yeah, just take the length of the room, and divide it by (1+√5)/2, and place a new wall to make that the width. Then, if you feel like it, take the width of the room, and place the ceiling at the same ratio.

Then no surfaces will have harmonics of each other.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

Top
#335738 - 01/26/11 06:27 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted By: zuter
... My Pio doesn't use 3 positions only 1 with 5 memeory slots. ...


Which Pioneer do you have? If I run full auto MCACC I can only do one position, but if you go into the advanced mode and just select the Standing Wave it should let you measure and correct for 3 positions. To summarise I keep all of my MCACC settings but disable just the EQ and tweak the speaker levels to my '0 for center' principle.
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#335743 - 01/26/11 06:34 PM Re: There here... [Re: cb919]
ClubNeon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
In advanced mode you can also have it store different EQing options in 3 different memory locations (all channels, symmetric pairs, and match the others speakers to the un-EQed left and right).
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

Top
#335757 - 01/26/11 08:02 PM Re: There here... [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10682
Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
He likes his problem just the way it is.

We've all tried, Bob.


Suggestions, suggestions... No one ever ponies up the dough... ::sigh::
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#335763 - 01/26/11 09:25 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Very good, Zute. A setting of -10 on the volume control is nothing to be concerned about since that apparently was the setting necessary for loud volume with the voltage output of the particular source material being played at the time. Relax and enjoy the sounds through your Axioms.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#335767 - 01/26/11 10:21 PM Re: There here... [Re: ClubNeon]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Thanks cb919

My Pio is the VSX-81TXV.

Aah, there's the setting your talking about. Mine's under Auto MCACC options. Didn't know I could do that.

Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
In advanced mode you can also have it store different EQing options in 3 different memory locations (all channels, symmetric pairs, and match the others speakers to the un-EQed left and right).


Yep! I read about that too! Seems I've some reading to do! I haven't found the settings your talking about except "all channels". Our receivers are different models so mine may be named differently or not availble. I'll check this out.

Thanks to you both for the info!
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

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#335846 - 01/27/11 02:23 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
wbedford Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/23/10
Posts: 74
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I have an SC-05. I never got the most out of it until I bought a quality SPL meter and read this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1112470
_________________________
SC-05, HLT6189, Oppo BDP-93, Blue Circle Audio FX2
Axiom M2v3's, QS8v3's

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#336214 - 01/29/11 01:51 PM Re: There here... [Re: wbedford]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: wbedford
I have an SC-05. I never got the most out of it until I bought a quality SPL meter and read this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1112470


Yep! Thats exactly how and where I got the best results too! Just fininshed my tweaks last night and now I can say this system is "dailed in". The only thing I did different, or rather added, is:

8) a) Go to Manual MCACC - Channel Level. Using your SPL meter check/adjust each speaker to match "L" channel as reference and/or b)using above approach adjust "L" to 0.0 db and then adjust all other channels to match.

The main difference between "A" and "B" is "A" defaults to 75 db and "B" sets everything to 85 db, at least in my case, YMMV. Since my old system was set to 85 db, the Auto MCACC, "A", by itself used the 75 db reference. This is what was causing me so much grief. I'm used to the higher reference setting, just my personal preference! Nothing wrong with either as I've pointed out below.

Using both "a and b" from above, after following the instructions from AVS forums, yielded excellent results. "A", saved on "M1", method requires the higher volume still and "B" be gets me back to where I was with my old settings, volume wise, saved to M2. Either setting works very well but I left the MCACC on the "B" setting. Now that this system is properly balanced these speakers really show (hear) their true potential.

We watched a couple movies, tv and video's from my HTPC all with very satisfying results...far better than even my old system was! I highly recommend the AVS site to anyone for complete and highly informed information.

Thanks again to everyone who replied!

Now I think I'll treat myself to a "Band of Brothers" marathon...too cold and crappy out to do anything else.
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

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#336218 - 01/29/11 02:24 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10394
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Glad you have it all dialed in and are happy.

I agree our weather right now is not outdoor friendly unless you like it cold and snowy, better off watching some flicks or listening to music.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#336225 - 01/29/11 03:10 PM Re: There here... [Re: jakewash]
zuter Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 81
Thanks

Happy doesn't come close to describing the sound and my feelings! I truely do appreciate having been able to audition the "Axioms"! Axiom's community and product has been a "great" experience. I wouldn't hesitate to "highly recommend" them to anyone looking for phenominal sound! Thanks again to all involved!

Now I'm off to tweak my friends "Axiom's"! He wanted some after hearing my first Axiom purchase of the VP150, M22's and QS8's...which I sold to him when I purchased this system! Luckily he's right next door so we'll watch an episode of B.O.B at both houses...heck, he'll probably want to upgrade too! LOL
_________________________
M80's, VP180 and QS8's.
Marantz AV 7005 pre/pro
Outlaw 7700 power amp

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#336296 - 01/29/11 09:45 PM Re: There here... [Re: zuter]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10394
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Glad you are still happy with the Axiom experience and especially the new Axioms, in spite of my mess up with the original audition.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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