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#335970 - 01/28/11 11:44 AM Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
All, I was just reading this review and the thought occurred to me that commenting on the sound qualities of modern amplifiers is kind of pointless. When they talk about the 'organic nature' of the voice or that the kick drum played 'quick and deep' isn't this really more a property of the recording, the speakers, setup and listening environment? Am I out to lunch here? I mean, other than commenting on power capabilities, design, ergonomics, setup options, inputs, outputs etc... what's the point in commenting on the sound of an amplifier (assuming there's no or inaudible distortion introduced by the amp)? Do any modern day amps 'color' the sound? I feel like I'm missing something. Why all these reviews that focus on the sound quality? Assuming setup variables could be removed, wouldn't my Pioneer sound the same as your Denon's and Onkyo's? Maybe the answer is obvious to some but not to me right now. confused


Apparently I'm in a ponderous mood.


Edited by cb919 (01/28/11 11:45 AM)
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#335976 - 01/28/11 12:18 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3141
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
I'm definitley not a tube guy and, I think that it is there that you would find the most differences in sound.

I have owned more than one solid state amp at a time. I thought the differences between my Hafler and Apt were minor. Slight differences in passages here and there, but I was almost splitting hairs.

And, if you're not actively "a/b"-ing, them you'd likely never notice.

I'll defer from the definitive, since there are others here who know loads more.


Edited by BobKay (01/28/11 12:24 PM)
_________________________
"Ya rolls the dice and ya takes yer chanskes."
Popeye

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#335977 - 01/28/11 12:18 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
You're right. Those reviews are silly.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#335979 - 01/28/11 12:31 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3141
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
Fer Sure!

The biggest thing that would influence my purchase, after "listening" to anything is never, never mentioned. How reliable is it? How long will it last? And, what if I DO need repairs?
_________________________
"Ya rolls the dice and ya takes yer chanskes."
Popeye

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#335980 - 01/28/11 12:35 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BobKay]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
That's a hard thing to review, but I agree.
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#335982 - 01/28/11 12:36 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BobKay]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
OK, so I'm not alone in glossing over the audio part of the report and just paying attention to things that DO make a difference? (Room correction, X-over points, memory slots, OSD etc...) If this is true, seems like a lot of text could be cut out of the audio mags - well, for receiver reviews anyway.
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#335984 - 01/28/11 12:42 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
But then audiophiles would be sad.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#335987 - 01/28/11 12:43 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
And the reviews couldn't talk about obscure discs in their collections.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#335999 - 01/28/11 01:06 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
I've read a lot of people that upgraded to bigger amps saying it improves the sound. I tend to believe what those have tried say, as apposed to naysayers just for the sake of nay-saying.

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#336008 - 01/28/11 01:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
There are a few new SS amps that have some design issues or are designed to sound like tube amps, so I guess this might be why they still comment on the 'sound' of an amp.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#336010 - 01/28/11 01:21 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I think it would make a "noticeable" difference only in a large room and at high SPLs. At moderate levels I don't think it would be noticeable but I never had the chance to make a comparison.
_________________________
Bruno
M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
"The problem is choice..."

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#336017 - 01/28/11 01:29 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: bdpf]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
I know when I went from a cheap Sony 100wpc amp to a more expensive Pioneer Elite 110wpc, there was a night and day difference. I'm assuming that if I went from what I have to some really good, and powerful separates, that this night and day difference would probably be there also. (More noticeable with M80 than M22).

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#336051 - 01/28/11 02:41 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
I know when I went from a cheap Sony 100wpc amp to a more expensive Pioneer Elite 110wpc, there was a night and day difference. I'm assuming that if I went from what I have to some really good, and powerful separates, that this night and day difference would probably be there also. (More noticeable with M80 than M22).


I agree. But this is a touchy subject.

Around here, the prevailing attitude is that amps don't affect sound quality. I disagree (based on my own personal experiences), but I choose not to fight that battle. IMHO, it's the Kobayashi Maru of online audio discussion. wink
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#336052 - 01/28/11 02:47 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
There is little agreement about whether technical differences among amplifiers are reflected in sound quality. The most relevant test of this, double-blind listening comparisons, are so much trouble to conduct that they are rarely done. So, what it comes down to is acquiring a set of prejudices that let people arrive at conclusions in the absence of relevant evidence. My suggestion: Don't believe anything.
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#336053 - 01/28/11 02:48 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: GregLee]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
I believe in canaries.

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#336054 - 01/28/11 02:51 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: PeterChenoweth]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth

Around here, the prevailing attitude is that amps don't affect sound quality. I disagree, but choose not to fight about it. It's the Kobayashi Maru of online AV discussion. wink

Now that's funny Peter!

Yeah I know the whole amps don't sound different debate and I have some mixed feelings there but no facts to back anything up. I know that debate can't be completely separated from this discussion, but my point in the original post was more a question of how do reviewers attribute what amps sound like in a review when the speakers and other factors have a much greater affect on sound quality?

And back to my other rhetorical question, would a modern Pioneer vs. a modern Denon vs. a modern Onkyo all of similar quality/power ratings really sound any different from each other played within their limits?
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#336062 - 01/28/11 03:06 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
My personal opinion (yeah, I know, no body asked for it, but I just can't help myself (pestering addiction)) is if they are similar, there won't be any difference. But if there are major design differences, such as better power supply, bigger transistors, etc. that there will probably be a difference if more power / headroom is available, and is being used.

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#336064 - 01/28/11 03:10 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
The reviewers have their "reference" system, that they are supposed to know intimately. They can then swap out a part (like the receiver) when they are doing a review and compare what they hear to what they remember. (I already have a problem there, as audio memory doesn't last that long.)

Then they use flowery terms to describe what they are hearing. Words that have no relationship to measurable quantities. There's no way to argue how warm the midrange is, or sweet the highs.

I used to pour over equipment reviews when I was a kid. Trying to imagine what these words meant, how I was missing the chocolaty middle while listening to my mom's Sound Design stereo system. Over time I grew more and more aware that these reviewers are writing to appeal to readers (and their advertisers). They're telling a story that people want to hear, but it is mostly fantasy.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336065 - 01/28/11 03:10 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
Pour chocolate over the reviews? Wouldn't that make them hard to read?
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#336068 - 01/28/11 03:12 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
Mmmmm chocolate. I want some.

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#336073 - 01/28/11 03:37 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
I would strongly encourage someone to buy the equipment and try it in their own home. That's the only way to really hear differences; real or imagined.

Personally, I've purchased multiple AVR's at the same time for back-to-back testing and I've definitely heard differences in the sound, brand A vs. brand B. I won't argue that it's the amplification sections making the difference, but I think it's naive to believe that every brand's implementation of sound processing is identical. Chips are different. The code driving those chips is different. The design architecture is different. Then there's each manufacturer's implementation of room EQ too; Audyssey vs MCACC vs YPAO.

So ultimately, yes, I think different AVR's can and do sound different from one another.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#336075 - 01/28/11 03:46 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: PeterChenoweth]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
If you're using room EQ, you will hear a difference between manufacturers.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336076 - 01/28/11 03:48 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
I thing you should always leave built in EQ out of the equation.

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#336078 - 01/28/11 03:55 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
If "room correction" is a big deal to you, it probably should be at the top of the list of reasons to buy a certain make. It's going to make a bigger difference in the performance of a receiver than any other feature, just because it is there to change the sound. All the other features are there to preserve the sound.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336124 - 01/28/11 06:56 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
This is a topic of belief. There will never be agreement on whether or not solid state electronics sound different or the same, regardless of the evidence.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#336129 - 01/28/11 07:23 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
I say "Let the ears agree".

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#336144 - 01/28/11 08:27 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
As long as its double blind so the bias is removed...

See where this is going?
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#336148 - 01/28/11 09:16 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
No where?
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#336150 - 01/28/11 09:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
Yep.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#336160 - 01/28/11 10:02 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Ooops - for starting a go nowhere thread. grin
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#336161 - 01/28/11 10:06 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: fredk
As long as its double blind so the bias is removed...

See where this is going?


...and true double blind-experiments doesn't really exist in audio...

Nowhere?
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#336172 - 01/29/11 12:11 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
Yeah, Dan; that sort of "review", describing in glowing terms the "sound" of a piece of electronic equipment, can't be taken seriously. If the amplification process is understood, it's clear that all that's happening is that enough voltage is being added from the power supply section to make the small incoming voltage about 30 times stronger. If this is done with flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion(typical in even modestly-priced units these days), the result is transparent amplification without any added sound characteristic, and no amplifier, regardless of whether it costs $200 or $200,000, can do more than this.

The editor of The Audio Critic summarizes this very well in "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" . Of course where such reviewers lack the equipment or technical knowledge to provide meaningful measurements, they're reduced to operating on a "Just trust your ears" level, which is hopelessly flawed when not done under carefully-controlled blind listening conditions.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#336173 - 01/29/11 12:18 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
It's a real
nowhere thread
Getting all
into our heads
Making us all
hot and bo-otheredÖ

Peter's got a
point of view
And JohnK,
he has one too
Isn't this horse be-e-eaten y-e-et?


Nowhere thread
please listen
You don't know
what you're missin'
Nowhere thread
the a..a..a..amp
makes a difference ...la la la la

Double blind is what you'll be
If you're listening, you can't see
Nowhere thread, you don't read me at aAall...

Nowhere thread,
Don't worry
Do it blind,
No, surely
Trust your ears
not somebody else's nu-u-umbers!

Catbrat's got a point of view,
ClubNeon, he's got one, too
Isn't this horse be-e-eaten y-e-et?

Nowhere thread
please listen
You don't know
what you're missin'
Nowhere thread
the a-a-a-amp
makes no difference ..la la la la

It's a real nowhere thread
Getting all inside our heads
Making all these arguments
for nobody.
Making all these arguments
for nobody.
Making all these arguments for nobody!
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#336178 - 01/29/11 12:40 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
If you don't beat the horses once in a while; how are they going to stay dead?
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336179 - 01/29/11 12:46 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
Hmm. On second/third/fifteenth thought, "murdered" would have been a better word there.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#336185 - 01/29/11 01:06 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
I know when I went from a cheap Sony 100wpc amp to a more expensive Pioneer Elite 110wpc, there was a night and day difference.

Night and day in what part of the world? Northern Alaska in the winter?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#336194 - 01/29/11 08:24 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
But, nowhere "is" somewhere.

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#336196 - 01/29/11 08:28 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
I know when I went from a cheap Sony 100wpc amp to a more expensive Pioneer Elite 110wpc, there was a night and day difference.

Night and day in what part of the world? Northern Alaska in the winter?


Apparently, it was nowhere. Amazing how a big difference is heard by someone, but it can't be true unless everyone else hears it. Kinda like falling trees can't make a noise unless someone was there to hear it.


Edited by CatBrat (01/29/11 08:30 AM)

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#336215 - 01/29/11 01:53 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11194
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
If the difference was that great to you, who are we to argue? Of course you have the right to quantify the change in whatever terms you want. I went from a mid-level Onkyo receiver to separates which include Axiom's A1400-8. I love the loud, clean playback levels compared to the Onkyo's obviously underpowered receiver with its harsher sound at higher volumes, but I'd personally be hard-pressed to call the difference night and day. Maybe clear blue skies versus a bit overcast.

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#336219 - 01/29/11 02:35 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CV]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I too went from a Sony to a Denon and the difference was very noticeable. I can remember thinking the dynamic range was better with the Denon, which would mean the Sony was very under powered for the volume levels I wanted. The Sony seemed to have a much flatter playback less noticeable highs and lows than the Denon.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#336241 - 01/29/11 04:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: jakewash]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
Originally Posted By: jakewash
I too went from a Sony to a Denon and the difference was very noticeable. I can remember thinking the dynamic range was better with the Denon, which would mean the Sony was very under powered for the volume levels I wanted. The Sony seemed to have a much flatter playback less noticeable highs and lows than the Denon.


Or, a frequency response that looked like a frowny face.


Edited by CatBrat (01/29/11 04:19 PM)

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#336278 - 01/29/11 07:37 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Possibly frown
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#336416 - 01/31/11 01:34 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
davidsch Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 678
Loc: Houston, Texas
Ken - I for one appreciated your song. Well done, sir.

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#336417 - 01/31/11 01:47 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: davidsch]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
Thanks, David. I was feeling a little bummed about that...
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#336418 - 01/31/11 02:23 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10878
Loc: Central NH
I started typing "What song?" when I scrolled up to see it. I don't know how I missed it, but yes, that's really well done!

Now I have to go put on my "Love" SACD! smile
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#336420 - 01/31/11 02:36 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
Mostly because I posted it on Friday night and then some *#&!ing serious responses went up. What do you people think you're doing, being helpful and useful? Yeesh. I'm trying to be silly here.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#336421 - 01/31/11 03:05 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
I suspect a conspiracy.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#336431 - 01/31/11 04:10 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: JohnK]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Yeah, Dan; that sort of "review", describing in glowing terms the "sound" of a piece of electronic equipment, can't be taken seriously. If the amplification process is understood, it's clear that all that's happening is that enough voltage is being added from the power supply section to make the small incoming voltage about 30 times stronger. If this is done with flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion(typical in even modestly-priced units these days), the result is transparent amplification without any added sound characteristic, and no amplifier, regardless of whether it costs $200 or $200,000, can do more than this.

The editor of The Audio Critic summarizes this very well in "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" . Of course where such reviewers lack the equipment or technical knowledge to provide meaningful measurements, they're reduced to operating on a "Just trust your ears" level, which is hopelessly flawed when not done under carefully-controlled blind listening conditions.


I like JohnK. He is very knowledgeable about audio matters. However, I think that he is a man blinded or deafened by faith - faith that an amplifier is a straight wire with gain. This is an ideal never reached. John usually qualifies his mantra by urging that all "properly designed" solid state amplifiers sound the same. Ultimately, JohnK is speaking of a tautology. All amplifiers which sound the same - sound the same. The corollary to this flawed axiom is that if you think you hear a difference, you are deluded, or kidding yourself, or a true believer who has confabulated a result based on expectations.

As there may be many mansions in someone's house, there are many solid state amplifiers in mine. They do not sound the same. Now, the differences are subtle but audible. My used Harman Kardon PM665 is my current favorite. I've swapped everything I have, sources, speakers amps, and the HK just sounds sweeter than my other wonderful and much appreciated amps - Kenwood KA9100, Yamaha M80s, Integra M504, Anthem PVA, Muse T-Amp.

Trust your ears, not theory.

Shimmer
tinkle
sparkle
blatt (thanks PMB)
soundstage
punch
attack
dissipation
timbre
air

does your Sony amp really reproduce these audio qualities as well as an HK, or Bryston, Ayre? Really? Really?


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#336435 - 01/31/11 04:59 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
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You forgot scintillation.
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#336437 - 01/31/11 05:09 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
What does exfoliating have to do with this, Peter?
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#336438 - 01/31/11 05:14 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Adrian]
Ken.C Offline
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I wish I had many mansions in my house.
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#336440 - 01/31/11 05:21 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
As long as those Mansions ain't named Charles.
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#336464 - 01/31/11 09:20 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
JohnK Offline
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Phil, you went 0 for 10; none of those are attributes of the amplification process.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#336497 - 02/01/11 01:23 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: JohnK]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Of course not John ... because your faith commands that an amplifier is a straight wire with gain without any quality or distinctiveness.

Such an amplifier as John imagines is an abstraction, an idealization. There never has been such an amplifier.
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#336511 - 02/01/11 09:43 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
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If you believe everything in the signal path should put its own signature signal passing through it, you would say that.
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#336545 - 02/01/11 02:02 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
2x6spds Offline
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Registered: 03/16/02
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Loc: CA, USA
Yes, of course, if you believe that all caps sound identical, and resistors and all thingamabobs are colorless and transparent, then the sum of thousands of entries, each of which equals zero, would be zero. You don't really believe none of these components adds any color, strangeness, upness, downess or flavor to the signal? You don't believe the arrangement, and architecture of the array of components add or detract anything from the signal? Really?


Edited by 2x6spds (02/01/11 02:06 PM)
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#336549 - 02/01/11 02:15 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
All those things measure as distortion or noise. A well designed amplifier, by definition, minimizes %THD+N to an undetectable amount when operated within its limits.
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Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
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#336560 - 02/01/11 03:58 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
pmbuko Offline
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My email was particularly flavorful today, owing to the mail servers, tens of routers, and handful of switches it had to go through to get to my screen.
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#336563 - 02/01/11 04:13 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
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Was it rich and yet mellow at the same time? With a fat bottom and clear highs?
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#336564 - 02/01/11 04:18 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Did it tinkle?
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
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#336565 - 02/01/11 04:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
pmbuko Offline
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Click to reveal..
No, it was not a picture of a bald, fat-bottomed woman with bladder problems.


EDIT: spoilerized it for the faint-of-heart
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#336566 - 02/01/11 04:23 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
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Much like the post in the WC in the funny things thread, It is highly recommended that you do NOT click there.
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#336567 - 02/01/11 04:26 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
Kruncher Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 484
Loc: Maple Ridge, BC
Maybe if you change your Ethernet patch cable that picture will become

Click to reveal..
Sofia Vergara


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#336568 - 02/01/11 04:37 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Kruncher]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Hey, add her to the casting call for "hot drug rep" in the medic8r movie.
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#336570 - 02/01/11 04:43 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
OK, so, your choice of parts do not effect the spelling in your emails. Excellent. All well designed TV 1080p monitors provide the same picture quality. All solid states amplifiers sound the same. Got it. OK. Thanks.

When the rigid application of audio theory triumphs over experience, why bother listening for a difference when you already know there won't be any?


Edited by 2x6spds (02/01/11 04:44 PM)
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#336571 - 02/01/11 04:44 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
Kruncher Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 484
Loc: Maple Ridge, BC
I wondered how you'd overlooked her. Did you see the recent SAG awards?

Yup, I think that you need to make your casting couch available to her.

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#336573 - 02/01/11 04:48 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
Speaking of fat bottomed women, this actually happened to me in my local Publix grocery store not more than an hour and a half ago...

While bending down to pick up the cheapest 5#bag of sugar (I'm trying to kill dollar weeds in our yard) that's located on the shelf next to the floor I hear a woman's voice behind and above me say 'Excuse me, I'm just going to reach over the top of you and grab this' not thinking much about it I said 'Go right ahead, you have plenty of room'. I grabbed my bag of sugar turned around and saw this woman several years older than me (remember I'm 53!) who, width wise, took up more than her share real estate with a smile on her face saying to me 'You know, I could listen to your voice all night'.

Ego deflated like a mofo, dumbfounded and perplexed I shot out of the aisle without saying a word. While checking out a few minutes later, she pulls her cart behind mine and say's 'Well'.

That is no BS, it really did happen and I've decided that I'll never go back to that Publix again.

Ever.


_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#336574 - 02/01/11 04:56 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
All well designed TV 1080p monitors provide the same picture quality. All solid states amplifiers sound the same.

It's quite simple to look at a waveform going into an amp, and coming out. How much the two signals differ is measurable. In modern, well designed, amps (don't even have to be solid state), operating within their limits the difference in these waveforms in barely detectable with laboratory equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears. When an amp it pushed beyond its limits, the waveform differs, once it differs enough the effects become not only measurable, but audible. This happens sooner with some amps than others. But the measurements are easy to perform.

With displays, you can look at the values contained in the input signal, and use a meter to see what's coming out of the display. The input and output on modern displays differs quite a bit. So video displays are not a technology that has matured to the point where they can reproduce a signal with undetectable differences from the input.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
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#336575 - 02/01/11 05:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Oh, and too. The video display is not analogous to an amplifier. It's audio realm analog would be the speakers. No one is arguing that one pair of speakers sounds the same as another. Speakers are not a technology that has matured to the point where they can reproduce a signal with undetectable differences from the input.

I will go so far as to say, a well designed blu-ray player with no post-processing will output a signal from its HDMI port that is indistinguishable from another model meeting the same criteria. As long as the cable to the next input is within the limits of its output drive.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
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#336576 - 02/01/11 05:21 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
In recent years, anyone that has followed Joe Kane's discussions and purchased his DVE calibration discs have listened to his mantra about how the TV manufacturers could make their performance consistent from one to another but, realistically, they don't want to do it.

In the stores, when you have a bunch of monitors "side by each" transmitting the same picture at the same time, they will purposely do things internally(usually adjusting the color decoder) to make "theirs" look different from their competitors.

It has been going on for years with no change in sight.

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#336577 - 02/01/11 05:24 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
In theory two well designed receivers are not going to measure identical on the bench. So in theory it is possible two well designed receivers operating within their limits can sound different. There is more to an amp than frequency response like THD, S to N, output impedance, crosstalk etc.

There are other factors that really matter for amps in real world listening like listener preferences and the impedance and sensitivity of the loudspeaker used and how they interact with a particular AVR/Amp. Some amps will perform better than others with certain loudspeakers.






_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#336578 - 02/01/11 05:25 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: casey01]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Sticking with the speaker analogy. Speaker makers continually do things to "voice" their speakers differently to appeal to different people.

Though there are physical limitations when it comes to both emitting light and sound waves that will always keep displays and speakers from being able to come anywhere near the accuracy of the electronics driving them.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336579 - 02/01/11 05:33 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: Dr.House
In theory two well designed are not going to measure identical on the bench. So in theory it is possible two well designed receivers operating within their limits can sound different. There is more to an amp than frequency response like THD, S to N, output impedance, crosstalk etc.

There are other factors that matter like listener preferences and the impedance and effieciency of the loudspeaker and how they interact with a particular AVR/Amp. Some amps will perform better than others.

I'm not saying that every amp measures identically. I'm saying that amps with measurements beyond the level of human detection (well designed) will be indistinguishable from one another.

If an amp's output is changed by a loudspeaker load to the point where its measurements shift into the audible range it is either one of two things: not well designed, or being pushed beyond the limits of its design.

If an amp is designed with a "listener's preference" in mind, it is not well designed, but intended to purposefully color the sound in some way.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
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#336580 - 02/01/11 05:39 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Rick just got propositioned by Rosie O'Donell's grandma and you guys are still talking about amps?
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#336581 - 02/01/11 05:43 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Adrian]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
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Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I am a well designed debater.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
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#336601 - 02/01/11 07:05 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
I think Rick's story is more fun than science.

You know, I'm bad at this stuff and I honestly don't really care, but...

Quote:
equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears


The flawed assumption here - for me - is that science can measure everything that can be experienced. I agree that ears probably can't do everything that equipment can, but why is it necessarily the case that equipment can do everything ears (and a brain) can?

I know, flat earth. I get that a lot. Just making conversation.
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#336602 - 02/01/11 07:06 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
Ken.C Offline
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At that point, you're arguing that some equipment is spiritual (ie, the amp), while the measuring equipment isn't, aren't you?
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#336604 - 02/01/11 07:12 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
I have spiritual equipment.
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Rick
Our Room

smile

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#336605 - 02/01/11 07:14 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I will concede, that if some one can repeatedly, and consistently demonstrate to show that than can detect some difference between two signals that can't be measured, then there may be more to audio reproduction than what has been measured so far.

But the thing is, no one has been able to demonstrate this. There's always big excuses, and complaints about the trial conditions. So until I see proof otherwise, I'm sticking with the current measurements of distortion and noise as what can be heard. And when they're small enough to not be heard, that's good enough.
_________________________
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#336608 - 02/01/11 07:20 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
It's not that hard. Buy a $100 receiver from Newegg, and compare it to a $800+ receiver. Instant day and night difference.

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#336610 - 02/01/11 07:26 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17768
Loc: NoVA
But the thing is, we're talking about amplifiers, not receivers.

A receiver, by definition, CAN and DOES alter the sound--with different processing, bass and treble knobs, etc.

I hate the reduction ad absurdum argument. Is a $100 receiver competently designed, with THD specs <1%?

Let's say this: run a Denon 3810 in pure direct mode and compare with a Denon 3810 in pure direct with an XPA-2 hooked up. Level match them. THEN tell me there's a day and night difference. (HINT: I really want to know this one).

Alternately, compare an XPA-2 with an A1400-2, again level matched, with no processing happening. Is there an audible difference, as long as neither is driven into clipping? I doubt it.


Edited by kcarlile (02/01/11 07:26 PM)
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#336632 - 02/01/11 09:18 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
I am a well designed debater.


I'm a good driver.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336633 - 02/01/11 09:22 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
All well designed TV 1080p monitors provide the same picture quality. All solid states amplifiers sound the same.

It's quite simple to look at a waveform going into an amp, and coming out. How much the two signals differ is measurable. In modern, well designed, amps (don't even have to be solid state), operating within their limits the difference in these waveforms in barely detectable with laboratory equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears. When an amp it pushed beyond its limits, the waveform differs, once it differs enough the effects become not only measurable, but audible. This happens sooner with some amps than others. But the measurements are easy to perform.

With displays, you can look at the values contained in the input signal, and use a meter to see what's coming out of the display. The input and output on modern displays differs quite a bit. So video displays are not a technology that has matured to the point where they can reproduce a signal with undetectable differences from the input.


ClubNeon - a simple waveform - yes. Who'd want to listen to one of those anyway? It is when things get complicated, complexified that they get interesting and beautiful... like music.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336635 - 02/01/11 09:28 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I think Rick's story is more fun than science.

You know, I'm bad at this stuff and I honestly don't really care, but...

Quote:
equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears


The flawed assumption here - for me - is that science can measure everything that can be experienced. I agree that ears probably can't do everything that equipment can, but why is it necessarily the case that equipment can do everything ears (and a brain) can?

I know, flat earth. I get that a lot. Just making conversation.


Perhaps it's because a brain and 2 ears are far more than a microphone. 1400cc's of the most advanced processor in the universe (that we know of) and a pair of those funny, curlicued, cartilagenous wave form accumulators may discern a bit more than a mere microphone and an oscilloscope.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336636 - 02/01/11 09:36 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I'm off to get some fresh ginger and garlic for some Thai cooking ... but before I go, thanks to FredK for his spiritual equipment quip. True to the spirit of the thing and good for a smile.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336637 - 02/01/11 09:38 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
BlueJays1 Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Sounds good Phil. Planning on a little Thai curry?
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#336638 - 02/01/11 09:39 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
Yeah, Peter; everything matters. For another example, recently I "upgraded" the power cord on my computer. Now it runs so fast that I'm thinking of saving some money by going back to a dial-up connection!
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-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#336640 - 02/01/11 09:46 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: JohnK]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Yezzuh, thai yellow curry, chicken, pineapple, bell peppers, thai peppers, yukon gold potatoes, thai basil and a dash of fresh cilantro.

You're welcome to come on over some time.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336641 - 02/01/11 09:47 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
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Now that would be one blind A/B test. smile
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#336642 - 02/01/11 09:47 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Perhaps it's because a brain and 2 ears are far more than a microphone. 1400cc's of the most advanced processor in the universe (that we know of) and a pair of those funny, curlicued, cartilagenous wave form accumulators may discern a bit more than a mere microphone and an oscilloscope.

That's a pretty far distortion of Alan's quote, and top of that a total inversion of his meaning. He said that a microphone is not two ears and a brain, after complaints about combing effects of the two tweeters in the VP150. His point was that the human hearing system could not detect something so easily measured.

Just because the brain can perform some tasks quicker than current computers doesn't make it superior in every imaginable way. So much of the apparent speed of our sensory system is because of shortcuts. That's why optical (and aural) illusions are possible, and why the senses are so fallible.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
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#336643 - 02/01/11 09:51 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: CatBrat]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
Sure, Brian; just like the amps up to $12,000 blew away the $220 Pioneer receiver in the classic Stereo Review blind listening tests? Truth in audio is the objective if we hope to overcome the exaggerations and/or outright lies that pollute our hobby.
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#336647 - 02/01/11 09:59 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: JohnK]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
I like curry.
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#336658 - 02/02/11 12:03 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: pmbuko
My email was particularly flavorful today, owing to the mail servers, tens of routers, and handful of switches it had to go through to get to my screen.

Encouraged, I licked my last email. Yuck, tastes like screen dust!!
_________________________
Fred

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#336661 - 02/02/11 12:05 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
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You should wash before licking
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Jason
-----------------
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#336668 - 02/02/11 01:00 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I like curry.


If it were so hot it made your vision blurry,
would you eat it in a hurry?

What if it were served to you by a furry?
Would it really make you worry
or even cause you to scurry?
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"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#336669 - 02/02/11 01:01 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: JohnK]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Sure, Brian; just like the amps up to $12,000 blew away the $220 Pioneer receiver in the classic Stereo Review blind listening tests? Truth in audio is the objective if we hope to overcome the exaggerations and/or outright lies that pollute our hobby.


I didn't say anything about price or suggest that a more expensive amp sounds better than a less expensive amp. Personally, I don't think of myself as a polluter or at least not as a significant polluter. I am a hobbyist, I don't think folks who know me consider me a liar.

It's easier to prepare a great Thai curry than a great Indian curry. Everyone loved the Yellow chicken curry.
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#336670 - 02/02/11 01:04 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

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Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Everyone loved the Yellow chicken curry.


Did you mix the spices into a slurry?
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#336671 - 02/02/11 01:09 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
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I believe I did.
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#336678 - 02/02/11 07:18 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
I'll take your Thai yellow curry please. I am not as much as a fan of Indian curry. I love the spice and clean flavours of Thai.
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-Max Payne

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#336681 - 02/02/11 07:48 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
All, just wanted to ay thanks for this 'spirited' discussion smile
I didn't mean to spark any kind of debate with the original post, I was just musing out loud (or on the keyboard as it were), but I am enjoying the exchange nonetheless.
I also like Thai curry - green is my favourite, though the yellow or red will do too!
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In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#336691 - 02/02/11 09:31 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: cb919]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
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Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4019
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
I can whip up an excellent Indian curry, if I do say so myself.

I use Ship Brand curry powder which is regarded (via reviews online) as one of the best. If you can find it, you're in for a treat; the closest retailer I could purchase it from was an Asian store in Mississauga.
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#336692 - 02/02/11 09:36 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10878
Loc: Central NH
Oh, suuuuure......

Offer to make us dinner when you KNOW it's not a good day for us to try to get there!
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#336696 - 02/02/11 09:40 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: MarkSJohnson]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
How's your pork vindaloo Wheelz?
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Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#336698 - 02/02/11 09:54 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
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WOW, is THAT a personal question or what???

Take it to PMs, guys.....
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#336699 - 02/02/11 09:59 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: MarkSJohnson]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
No. A personal question would be if I asked him if he likes Tuscan Chili Dogs.
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Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#336703 - 02/02/11 10:29 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
Ken.C Offline
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Now, now. It's not Indian curry if you're using powder. wink
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#336721 - 02/02/11 11:49 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
KC, you're right about that, although I have to admit that Ship brand (green tin) is my favorite premixed curry powder suitable for chicken salad or tuna salad. (1/3 mayo 2/3 lite sour cream, add Ship brand curry powder and mix until it's a ... thick curry slurry.)

Pork vindaloo? Chicken, yes. Lamb, yes. Goat, yes. Pork???
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#336723 - 02/02/11 11:51 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
Ken.C Offline
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Yeah, pork doesn't work well in Indian food, in my experience.
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#336727 - 02/02/11 12:10 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Vindaloo is based off a portuguese dish which traditionally used pork as its protein. Using other proteins are variations.
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Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#336734 - 02/02/11 12:26 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

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Why is it every time I head the word vindaloo, I think of Red Dwarf?
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#336738 - 02/02/11 12:41 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
mmmmmm. smiling, backing up, smiling, backing up.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336739 - 02/02/11 12:46 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: BlueJays1]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4019
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Originally Posted By: Dr.House
How's your pork vindaloo Wheelz?


I've never made a dish with pork, I always use chicken and veggies. When I make vindaloo, I use Pataks brand paste or sauce. It's nothing too special, but it is good.

Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Now, now. It's not Indian curry if you're using powder. wink


Ken, please explain. Curry is just made up of a variety of spices, thus creating a powder. Then you use the powder to create a sauce, no?
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#336744 - 02/02/11 12:54 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
If you really want to make a curry from scratch, first you must create the universe.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336745 - 02/02/11 12:56 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Waitaminute - that's "apple pie" Mr. Sagan.
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#336748 - 02/02/11 01:05 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
So, you've studied ...
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336749 - 02/02/11 01:06 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4019
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
If you really want to make a curry from scratch, first you must create the universe.


I figured that's what he meant. So it's essentially still powder, just not pre-made?
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#336750 - 02/02/11 01:06 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
abroad...
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#336751 - 02/02/11 01:11 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: SirQuack]
davidsch Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 678
Loc: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted By: sirquack
abroad...


I studied a broad on numerous occasions.

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#336754 - 02/02/11 01:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: davidsch]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4019
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Originally Posted By: davidsch
Originally Posted By: sirquack
abroad...


I studied a broad on numerous occasions.


laugh

And did you learn about the right hand or left, slapping your face? smile
_________________________
Does a dyslexic atheist not believe in dog?

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#336760 - 02/02/11 02:10 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Say the magic woid and you win 25 dollars.

Groucho: And what do you do for a living?
Contestant: [Stammering Italian accent] I hav'a 15'a kids.
Groucho: why do ya have 15 kids?
Contestant: I lov'a my wife.
Groucho: I love my cigar, but I take it out once in a while.

That was the last time "You bet your life" appeared live on TV.
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#336761 - 02/02/11 02:10 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
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No, actually, a curry starts (usually) as a base of a number of whole spices and flavorings (including onion, sometimes as a liquid!) that are cooked at high heat together in a dry pan. If you talk to an Indian about curry powder, they'll look at you like you're nuts.
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#336763 - 02/02/11 02:15 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
You are right again, KC. pan roasting releases the oils in the spices, then you grind them, preferrably not in a food processor, but with a mortar and pestle, then you can add onion, garlic, ghee (gosh), ginger and make a nice paste.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336765 - 02/02/11 02:19 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

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Yeah, I thought I was a little off about when the onion went in. We haven't made Indian food that often (since it's such a pain), but I remember there were all kinds of wild permutations and intensely tight timings to the whole process.

I'm pretty sure we broke our oven (or destroyed the heat shielding, at least) making tandoori chicken. But man, it was so, so good.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#336766 - 02/02/11 02:24 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4019
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Thanks for the info, guys.
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Does a dyslexic atheist not believe in dog?

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#336768 - 02/02/11 02:36 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
If your eyeballs and the hair on your head aren't sweating, you haven't done it right.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336772 - 02/02/11 03:04 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Waitaminute - that's "apple pie" Mr. Sagan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336778 - 02/02/11 03:54 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
That's pretty cool, Chris.
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#336782 - 02/02/11 04:07 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Rest in peace, Dr. Sagan.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336783 - 02/02/11 04:13 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: tomtuttle]
Kruncher Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 484
Loc: Maple Ridge, BC
That is pretty cool. But it struck me listening to it that auto-tuned Carl sounded a lot like Kermit the Frog.

Apparently I'm not the only one.

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#336798 - 02/02/11 08:17 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Kruncher]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
You know, this sort of thinking (that specs are the only important aspect in determining if an amplifier is "good enough" and that expensive/quality amplification is pointless) is exactly the short sighted "reasoning" that proclaimed that early cd technology was "perfect sound forever" and that 16/44 was good enough because it captured sound in a range that was more than adequate for human ears.

That turned out to be wrong on so many levels!

It's the same kind of "reasoning" that insists that a Soundblaster card is as good at digitizing audio as a high end converter. It's just not true in the real world. Maybe the specs are technically the same, but the quality of the outcome is very different.

Whether it's high end or low end, all audio gear is not created equal.

Using just science and cold hard data only tells part of the story.

Some cheap gear sounds great. Axiom speakers sound great and are a bargain!

But most cheap audio gear sounds like crap to someone with good ears.

I've never been able to find a decent sounding cd player for under $300.00. I've bought (and taken back!) lots of cd players that(theoretically) had the exact same technical specs but sounded very different. I would try them out on music I was very familiar with and try to find the one that was the most musically accurate and pleasing.

Tubes, transistors, wiring, components etc. have a lot to do with how an amplifier will sound.

I'm surprised that with all the talk about how an amplifier is just a way to amplify an electrical signal, no one ever talks about the actual quality of the power supply itself. But that's a whole other topic... grin

One thing I've noticed is that people who claim that high end audio gear is not "worth" it are the same people that say flying first class is just a waste of money.

Those people have never flown first class. wink
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---Frank Zappa


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#336805 - 02/02/11 10:02 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: audiosavant]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: audiosavant

One thing I've noticed is that people who claim that high end audio gear is not "worth" it are the same people that say flying first class is just a waste of money.

Those people have never flown first class. wink




Having flown first class I can assure you it is a waste of money unless you travel VERY far and a LOT.

Provide me with empirical evidence that there is a discernible difference between high quality electronics and you will convert me. Give me anecdotal evidence and I say its just a piddling contest.
_________________________
Fred

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#336806 - 02/02/11 10:07 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
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But obviously you're too poor to know the difference, Fred. That's my takeaway from audiosavant's post.
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#336817 - 02/02/11 10:40 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
Even if I weren't poor I would be too cheap. That's why I stuck with tin ears instead of the golden upgrade. grin
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Fred

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#336820 - 02/02/11 10:45 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Someone's going to have to hook up two pairs of identical speakers to two different amps and do some tests, blind of course.
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#336821 - 02/02/11 10:49 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Adrian]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
You'd have to hook up those amps to the same speakers to remove any possiblity of small differences between those speakers ie placement etc.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#336824 - 02/02/11 11:14 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: jakewash]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Same toe in and separation on the speakers. Using one pair would be difficult as well as splitting hairs imo.
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Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#336827 - 02/02/11 11:53 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Adrian]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5843
Loc: Some random location
I would think it would be fairly easy with this switch.

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#336828 - 02/02/11 11:55 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: fredk]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: fredk

Having flown first class I can assure you it is a waste of money unless you travel VERY far and a LOT.


Well, I don't fly a LOT, but I usually only ever fly VERY far!

But I wish I could fly first class always. grin

In fact, I wish that I could afford to own and maintain my very own private jet!

But you are deluded if you think that a quality hierarchy does not exist.

I drive a Honda. I want a Porsche 911, but I don't begrudge a person that can afford to own (and maintain) a Lambo! I wish I could... smile

So some people think a car is just a car. To them it's silly to want anything but a basic automobile for transportation. Others live for the performance and aesthetics of high end automobiles. To each his own I say.

Here in the south, some "fellers" will spend $150,000 on a freakin' bass boat! I think that's insane... but I could care less about fishing. If I had that much $ to blow on a toy I would most certainly spend it on something that I love... like audio (pro/hi fi) or a car.

But I can appreciate the passion over finely crafted _______(whatever). If those boats are what the discerning fishermen digs, then hey, that's cool!

Some people are content with the average, common and ordinary.

Other people are connoisseurs of things. I've always aspired to those kind of hedonistic pursuits myself.

Coffee, wine, cigars, women, art, fashion, etc., are just a few of the things people become connoisseurs of. Life's to short to settle for "good enough" imho, but, ymmv...

Like all that yummy talk about homemade Thai curry. Some people think a frozen burrito is just as good. I mean, it's all just food, right? grin

I believe great audio is in the ear of the beholder. If you are content with your system then great! Just don't poo poo others who spend a lot to achieve what they are looking for.

It really is hard to convince people who have never even heard any high end gear.

But of course they always have an opinion on it... smile


Originally Posted By: fredk
Provide me with empirical evidence that there is a discernible difference between high quality electronics and you will convert me.


I'll leave the "converting" to the missionaries. wink

But I would like to know... have you ever actually heard a really high end hi fi system?

I have. You cannot get that kind of bang for only a little buck. It takes good gear. Good gear generally cost money.

I'm just an aspiring audiophile. I have good ears and I appreciate good sound, but in the scheme of things I'm probably just in the upper mid-fi end of the spectrum. I would love to explore the higher end of audio though.

Instead of this:







I would much rather have something like this:



Seriously, why should us audio snobs have to educate you coarse featured peasants anyway? grin


Originally Posted By: fredk
Give me anecdotal evidence and I say its just a piddling contest.



Well, I call your piddle and raise you a dribble my good sir! smirk
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#336829 - 02/02/11 11:56 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Ken.C]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: kcarlile
But obviously you're too poor to know the difference, Fred. That's my takeaway from audiosavant's post.


Poor people deserve good sound too...

That's why Axiom is so great! grin
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#336830 - 02/03/11 12:01 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: audiosavant]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10386
Introducing an irrelevant analogy isn't helpful when the point being considered involves simply the cold, hard, well-established facts of audio technology. If these ever change, it's not going to be discovered in an audio discussion forum. The incessant repetition of myths doesn't make them come true. Possibly it may appear in my AES Journal and lead to a nomination for the the Nobel Prize in physics.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#336833 - 02/03/11 12:41 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: audiosavant]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: audiosavant
[quote=fredk]
Well, I call your piddle and raise you a dribble my good sir! smirk

Dud, I've got a fire hose! You need more than a dribble. grin
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#336857 - 02/03/11 07:57 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: JohnK]
Argon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Oak Ridge, NC
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Introducing an irrelevant analogy isn't helpful when the point being considered involves simply the cold, hard, well-established facts of audio technology. If these ever change, it's not going to be discovered in an audio discussion forum. The incessant repetition of myths doesn't make them come true. Possibly it may appear in my AES Journal and lead to a nomination for the the Nobel Prize in physics.


BOOM! As usual, John comes in with the indisputable voice of reason.


On a side note...just wondering where in the country John and Audio reside? Audio said "down here in the South"?
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#336872 - 02/03/11 10:12 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Rest in peace, Dr. Sagan.

The immortal atomic particles his body borrowed for a short while are given back to the cosmos from whence they came. Rest? No. Recycle. smile
_________________________
"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#336901 - 02/03/11 01:11 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: Argon]
davidsch Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 678
Loc: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted By: Argon
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Introducing an irrelevant analogy isn't helpful when the point being considered involves simply the cold, hard, well-established facts of audio technology. If these ever change, it's not going to be discovered in an audio discussion forum. The incessant repetition of myths doesn't make them come true. Possibly it may appear in my AES Journal and lead to a nomination for the the Nobel Prize in physics.


BOOM! As usual, John comes in with the indisputable voice of reason.


On a side note...just wondering where in the country John and Audio reside? Audio said "down here in the South"?


Georgia, if I recall correctly.

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#336921 - 02/03/11 02:35 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: davidsch]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: davidsch
Georgia, if I recall correctly.


Atlanta, Ga.

One of the only really livable big cities in the south. grin

If you venture too far out of the safe zone you find yourself in the middle of...

(not the Twilight Zone)

Georgia

Growing up, all I ever knew about Georgia was that it was where they filmed those Macon County Line movies.

And Deliverance!


eek


So I cut a wide berth away from this "cracker" land until I found out about the oasis that is Atl.

I was born in Florida, lived in Los Angeles, New Orleans and Alaska for a bit.

I now make my home in this strategic location with easy access to the worlds busiest and largest airport.

So my tentacles stretch out internationally...


laugh

Below is a photo of me working on a (my first!) major motion picture in the late 80's.

Directed by a once great director, Peter Bogdanovich (The Last Picture Show).

It was a horrible little movie starring Rob Lowe (ironically, right before he got busted in Atlanta for having a sex party with two girls which was shot on video tape. One of the girls was underage I believe...).

I think I can safely expose now that, pretty much the entire crew and cast was coked up for the duration of that turkey.

An extra 5 points for anyone that can name the movie!!!




_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#336931 - 02/03/11 03:24 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: audiosavant]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
I had to use Google. Answer is here.

BTW, Athens is the best place to live in Georgia.
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#336938 - 02/03/11 04:31 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: medic8r

BTW, Athens is the best place to live in Georgia.


You know medic8r, I tend to agree with you. smile

I spend a lot of time there.

I kinda consider it a suburb of Atlanta though.

As you know, Athens is a legendary town for music.

I wonder if they will get the soon to be built Georgia music hall of fame. Macon and Atlanta are also in the running.

I sometimes wish I could buy some farm land in Athens, start a commune and raise me up a crop... grin

You used to live in Augusta, right?
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#336944 - 02/03/11 04:40 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: audiosavant]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I have a brother who lives in Athens.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336951 - 02/03/11 05:02 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I have a brother, too! Two, in fact.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#336956 - 02/03/11 05:08 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Actually, I have three brothers, one who lives in the same town as I, one in Athens Georgia, and on in Hawaii. No sisters.

We're all very different from each other. The one who lives in Athens loves music, but would never get into a discussion about amplifier reviews. He even has a vinyl collection.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#336959 - 02/03/11 05:28 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Rest in peace, Dr. Sagan.

The immortal atomic particles his body borrowed for a short while are given back to the cosmos from whence they came. Rest? No. Recycle. smile


Beautifully true.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#336960 - 02/03/11 05:33 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: ClubNeon]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
I grew up in Comer, 20 miles east of Athens. I lived there from age three until I went off to college. Mom was a nurse at Athens General Hospital (now Athens Regional Medical Center) and my dad was an officer at the Navy Supply Corps School.

Life was very slow in Comer, a true "one red light town". Really - it was at the intersection of Hwys 98 and 72. Any movies, shopping, anything beyond mailing a letter or getting gas meant a trip to Athens.

Things perked up once I turned 16 and got my driver's license, and a car. I went to Athens Academy from grade 9 to 12 on an academic scholarship. It was fantastic. One of the best schools anywhere.

I was always in Athens after that, hanging out with friends. With the drinking age only 19, and me being so tall and blessed with copious facial hair, I was never carded. Those were the days.

Athens has a real Zen about it. It's your traditional college town, like Chapel Hill, Austin, Berkeley, and countless others, with all the best that that brings. To get a taste of 1980s Athens, go see Athens, Ga. - Inside/Out, a 1987 movie focusing on the music scene. Great soundtrack, plus you can see the guy who did the album cover for the Talking Heads' Little Creatures.

Later on, I did 8 years in Augusta for medical school and residency. Augusta was OK, but it's no Athens, which is actually a good thing, or else I would not have made it through med school, I fear. And then who would be there to medic8 the masses of the Axiom forum?!
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#336966 - 02/03/11 07:21 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Originally Posted By: medic8r
I did 8 years in Augusta

JP on the chain gang cutting grass along I75...

"Swing lowwww....sweet char-i-Ooo....comin' for to carry me hoooome"
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Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#336990 - 02/04/11 01:28 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: medic8r
To get a taste of 1980s Athens, go see Athens, Ga. - Inside/Out, a 1987 movie focusing on the music scene. Great soundtrack, plus you can see the guy who did the album cover for the Talking Heads' Little Creatures


Dig this.

I was dating a girl in the early 80's who's brother was the photographer for REM. I got to hang out (I lived in Florida but I spent a lot of time in Athens) with a lot of people and bands from that scene.

I hung out with REM, the B52's, Pylon, Method Actors etc. It was an exciting time.

I also met a dude in a little combo called Buzz OF Delight. We became friends and he later helped me get started in the music industry. This person went on to some fame (if not fortune). This person? None other than Matthew Sweet. He's the reason I ended up here in Atlanta...

Anyway, I also got to meet the late, great Howard Finster. He gave me two really cool hand painted whirly-gigs that he had made. I left them in that girl I was dating parents garage (they were very big). Years later, after Howard died, I went and asked them for my whirly-gigs back.

Her father had thrown them out thinking that they were just junk! mad

Can you imagine how much they would be worth now?

The reverend was a strange and cool man.
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#336998 - 02/04/11 06:01 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: audiosavant]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10878
Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: audiosavant
He gave me two really cool hand painted whirly-gigs that he had made. I left them in that girl I was dating (they were very big).

This is just so much funnier with those two simple words removed....
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#337008 - 02/04/11 09:36 AM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: MarkSJohnson]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
My, what big whirly-gigs you have.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#337034 - 02/04/11 12:39 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: pmbuko]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Saline, silicon, it's all good.

Terry, Matthew Sweet was always one of my favorites. I love his vocal harmonies, especially on the Girlfriend CD. It's cool that he got you into the biz.

I have a few name-dropping stories, but nothing to compare to your industry exploits. One that I'll share, because it made me laugh, is how my mom met R.E.M. To assist in the mental imagery, imagine my Mom as Granny from the Beverly Hillbillies, maybe if Granny were 20-30 years younger. They have the same kind of country sensibilities, shall we say. Mom was also raised in Comer and enjoyed shooting, cooking, fishing, and "home remedies".

Anyway, Mom worked various units over her nursing career, with a long stint in oncology. Sadly, R.E.M.'s stage manager, Curtis Goodman, developed terminal cancer in the late 1980s (I'm thinking 1987) and was a patient of my mom's for about a week. She knew he was in the music business, but if it wasn't Waylon or Willie, it was foreign to Mom. So, Mom tells me one day that all the young nurses are going crazy, like a bunch of high school girls swooning over some hot stuff. "A-ha," she thinks, "the band must be in the building. Guess I'll meet me some real ce-leb-ri-ties! But then - imagine my surprise when I see these four grimy, ratty looking guys coming down the hallway!?! You mean this is what is driving these nurses crazy? Ain't nothin' too special about them that I can see! When was the last time they had a bath, anyway?!"

I think she also used some language similar to that in "Money for Nothing", meaning that my mom would probably be censored in Canada now, if recent threads here are to be believed.
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#337055 - 02/04/11 02:27 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4827
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: medic8r
And then who would be there to medic8 the masses of the Axiom forum?!

I'm still waiting on that order i placed in September.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#337376 - 02/07/11 03:15 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: chesseroo]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
You don't need it - you're altered enough, eh?

And take your Winterpeg weather back ASAP!
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#337400 - 02/07/11 05:16 PM Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews [Re: medic8r]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
He must have sent that weather to us!!
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Jason
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