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#370081 - 03/18/12 11:22 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: JBall]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Originally Posted By: JBall

At nearly $4k / pair cast baskets should be a standard not an option. It's not always just about determining a difference in a blind test. It's a matter of pride in build quality and using the highest quality of parts if you chose to charge such a premium for your speakers. I don't see your competitors fighting so hard to rationalize using better parts. They just do.


I think the difference simply comes down to our philosophy. We feel it's important to offer our customers a choice when it comes to things we have found don't make a difference in sound quality but do require an increase in price. Everyone at Axiom is extremely proud of the products we build and if we felt that die-cast drivers equated to better quality, you can be sure they would be in all of our models. We should also remember that these "nearly $4k" speakers include a serious piece of electronics which on it's own is very costly to produce.

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#370083 - 03/18/12 11:33 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: JBall]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10698
Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: JBall
It's a matter of pride in build quality and using the highest quality of parts if you chose to charge such a premium for your speakers. I don't see your competitors fighting so hard to rationalize using better parts. They just do.

And the competitors would also likely charge $2,000 more.

So, what's your point?

Axiom offers the option. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, you have the opportunity to save some money off something they say won't affect the sound.

Ditto regarding the bi-amping option. Most people have no use for it, or use the terminals in an incorrect (and ineffective) way.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#370084 - 03/18/12 11:50 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Andrew]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Originally Posted By: JBall

At nearly $4k / pair cast baskets should be a standard not an option. It's not always just about determining a difference in a blind test. It's a matter of pride in build quality and using the highest quality of parts if you chose to charge such a premium for your speakers. I don't see your competitors fighting so hard to rationalize using better parts. They just do.


I think the difference simply comes down to our philosophy. We feel it's important to offer our customers a choice when it comes to things we have found don't make a difference in sound quality but do require an increase in price. Everyone at Axiom is extremely proud of the products we build and if we felt that die-cast drivers equated to better quality, you can be sure they would be in all of our models. We should also remember that these "nearly $4k" speakers include a serious piece of electronics which on it's own is very costly to produce.


Fair enough Andrew, I don't want to be combative with you but you guys do seem to go against the grain quite often. I've never seen expensive speakers like these use stamped baskets. In pro audio, its a standard to use cast. They are stiffer, and stronger. I know for a fact all Paradigm, PSB and Harman speakers at this price and even cheaper use cast baskets. Those are all companies that cherish science and DBT testing too so I know it's not just marketing. To say there is "No difference" in these parts, certainly contradicts and almost mocks your competitors science.


Edited by JBall (03/18/12 12:29 PM)

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#370085 - 03/18/12 11:52 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
This thread was very enjoyable for me. Please don't let it come crashing down in a flame war. We are not there yet, everyone has been civil, but I can feel the tension building.

JBall, you want Axiom to use different parts without charging the customer extra. Understood.

Axiom will make design and marketing decisions. Consumers will make money spending decisions. The market will prevail.
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M3 and Manley Stingray
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#370086 - 03/18/12 11:53 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6559
Loc: It's all about the location.
As Andrew rightly points out, these are more than just speakers since there is some rather expensive electronics involved and the 'under $4K' price tag is certainly not unreasonable...(I don't know if real wood finish is standard or not). I do, in fact, understand where JBall is coming from, most higher end driver manufacturers do have diecast baskets vs stamped, which is less expensive to manufacture. Whether there's any difference sound-wise between a quality stamped basket vs die-cast, I couldn't say having not compared two similar products directly, but I would imagine a thin gauge basket would no doubt cause some problems. I've seen a few cast-plastic baskets on some drivers as well, not sure of the manufacturer however. Anyway, for Axiom to make a cast basket on a more limited series of speakers would definitely push the price up some and if it weren't reflected in a better quality sounding product, I doubt they would add that cost to the project.
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#370088 - 03/18/12 12:01 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Adrian]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: Adrian
As Andrew rightly points out, these are more than just speakers since there is some rather expensive electronics involved and the 'under $4K' price tag is certainly not unreasonable...(I don't know if real wood finish is standard or not). I do, in fact, understand where JBall is coming from, most higher end driver manufacturers do have diecast baskets vs stamped, which is less expensive to manufacture. Whether there's any difference sound-wise between a quality stamped basket vs die-cast, I couldn't say having not compared two similar products directly, but I would imagine a thin gauge basket would no doubt cause some problems. I've seen a few cast-plastic baskets on some drivers as well, not sure of the manufacturer however. Anyway, for Axiom to make a cast basket on a more limited series of speakers would definitely push the price up some and if it weren't reflected in a better quality sounding product, I doubt they would add that cost to the project.


To me, when you reach a certain price point in anything in life, you expect the best quality of parts used. For example, I pay a little extra for my drinking glasses and plates to have them made in USA and not risk eating off China lead paint. It's worth the extra cost for safety reasons even though the food will taste the same on both plates.

When I buy a car, I hate the cheap plastic materials inside so I usually look at alternative options with better build quality. Prime example, take a look at the inside of a Nissan or Infiniti car vs that of an Audi. While both competitors may be of similar driving experience and features, I spend a little more and get something that I feel is more solidly constructed.

Not trying to start a flame war here but come on guys, we are approaching $4k/pair for 2 speakers! I would certainly want the best parts used and also rounded cabinets too. But that's just me and I apologize for offending any die-hard Axiom fans that don't see that. As others said here, the free market will decide the success of this product.

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#370093 - 03/18/12 12:50 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1807
JBall, i understand where you are coming from..

However, everyone that works for axiom and is on the board, as well as Brent and JC on the phone, have been very honest with me.. Also, you hear copious amounts of stories, of Brent and JC telling people that they don't need something, that a less expensive product would work perfectly well in their environment... I dont know of many other companies downselling products...? My point being, if i may go out on a limb, Ians philosophy seems to be,( be completely honest with every and all customer,and offer a product at a good value.)


On your quality concern.. If Andrew said they did tests in the anabolic chamber, then i take him at his word.. Heck, i bought a pair yesterday before any results from the show were out... Also, JBall i dont know how familiar you are with the physics of metals, but if you use a heavy gauge steel, and introduce bends into that steel.. That pieces of "stamped" steel can be EVERY bit as strong as cast steel, if the design is a good.... Also, cast steel isn't the holy grail, using forged steel and then machining is the absolute best way to go, due to the atomic lattice work being consistant throughout the of the piece of metal (if you want more info on this google it).... Cast just adds mass, which would lower the resonant frequency but that is about it, but remember the stamped piece can be as stiff as the cast piece, for less money due to less metal being used to achieve the same result...


Also, if Axiom wanted to, they could have included the cast+realwood finish to include rosewood standard... However, then we would be talking about a 5,500$ or so speaker for options that some people just may not care about.. When i ordered mine, i asked JC to leave the finish blank, as well as the grill cloth as i really dont know what i want to do there (and i have several months to decide smile )... i may go with the standard black oak finish, but the option is open for me to decide what finish i want depending on how much i spend...


On a completely different side note.. JBall, you bring up premium speakers, and the quality of their drivers as compared to the drivers that Axoim uses. I have a pair of B&W CM1's, and a CM center.. at about 1,000$ a pair for the CM1's and about 700$ for the center... My axioms sound every bit as good as the B&W's for a fraction of the cost.... do the B&W's use cast drivers... I don't know, probably. But to me they aren't Way Way better... or i would have bought a pair of 802D's, or a pair of 800D's if i could find a good catch on Audigon.. Right now a pair of 802D's go for about 8k$ on audiogon... For 8k$ at axiom you could easily buy the new stereo speakers+ a pair of ep 600's or 800's and have a system that would BLOW away the 802's as well as the 800's.. oh, and that is comparing used B&W prices to new Axiom prices, if you compair new-new... then there really isn't any comparison...


With all that being said JBall, you bring up valid points. and i dont want you to take any of my comments personal, i am just presenting a different perspective.

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#370097 - 03/18/12 01:08 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: dakkon]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: dakkon
JBall, i understand where you are coming from..

However, everyone that works for axiom and is on the board, as well as Brent and JC on the phone, have been very honest with me.. Also, you hear copious amounts of stories, of Brent and JC telling people that they don't need something, that a less expensive product would work perfectly well in their environment... I dont know of many other companies downselling products...? My point being, if i may go out on a limb, Ians philosophy seems to be,( be completely honest with every and all customer,and offer a product at a good value.)


On your quality concern.. If Andrew said they did tests in the anabolic chamber, then i take him at his word.. Heck, i bought a pair yesterday before any results from the show were out... Also, JBall i dont know how familiar you are with the physics of metals, but if you use a heavy gauge steel, and introduce bends into that steel.. That pieces of "stamped" steel can be EVERY bit as strong as cast steel, if the design is a good.... Also, cast steel isn't the holy grail, using forged steel and then machining is the absolute best way to go, due to the atomic lattice work being consistant throughout the of the piece of metal (if you want more info on this google it).... Cast just adds mass, which would lower the resonant frequency but that is about it, but remember the stamped piece can be as stiff as the cast piece, for less money due to less metal being used to achieve the same result...


Also, if Axiom wanted to, they could have included the cast+realwood finish to include rosewood standard... However, then we would be talking about a 5,500$ or so speaker for options that some people just may not care about.. When i ordered mine, i asked JC to leave the finish blank, as well as the grill cloth as i really dont know what i want to do there (and i have several months to decide smile )... i may go with the standard black oak finish, but the option is open for me to decide what finish i want depending on how much i spend...


On a completely different side note.. JBall, you bring up premium speakers, and the quality of their drivers as compared to the drivers that Axoim uses. I have a pair of B&W CM1's, and a CM center.. at about 1,000$ a pair for the CM1's and about 700$ for the center... My axioms sound every bit as good as the B&W's for a fraction of the cost.... do the B&W's use cast drivers... I don't know, probably. But to me they aren't Way Way better... or i would have bought a pair of 802D's, or a pair of 800D's if i could find a good catch on Audigon.. Right now a pair of 802D's go for about 8k$ on audiogon... For 8k$ at axiom you could easily buy the new stereo speakers+ a pair of ep 600's or 800's and have a system that would BLOW away the 802's as well as the 800's.. oh, and that is comparing used B&W prices to new Axiom prices, if you compair new-new... then there really isn't any comparison...


With all that being said JBall, you bring up valid points. and i dont want you to take any of my comments personal, i am just presenting a different perspective.


Thanks Dakkon for a thoughtful post. If what you are saying is true about stamped steel vs cast, then why is virtually EVERY good quality subwoofer drive constructed of cast instead of thick stamped steel? Also cast is non magnetic so it seems to me its more efficient so its not wasting magnet strength.

Again $120 difference in cost to upgrade to the better drivers IMO should be standard at this price point. That cost is likely 1/2 to Axiom and there seems to be a good margin already in this product as is.

Calling Cast baskets "audio jewelery" again seems very insulting to competitors that clearly see them as an advantage in their designs, else they wouldn't use them.

This link shows some of the advantages of die-cast vs stamped process, one being, tighter tolerances, another being easier to forge complex shapes and durability and ability to draw away heat more effectively.

http://www.diecasting.org/faq/


Edited by JBall (03/18/12 01:15 PM)

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#370098 - 03/18/12 01:22 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: JBall]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1807
Originally Posted By: JBall


Again $120 difference in cost to upgrade to the better drivers IMO should be standard at this price point. That cost is likely 1/2 to Axiom and there seems to be a good margin already in this product as is.


I think this is what Andrew was getting at, the perception of "better" without scientific proof, or a double blind test to prove you can "hear" a difference, how would one quantify better?

the argument that the more expensive companies use it so it "must" be better doesn't always hold true... a perfect example, is Ferrari... Heck, they used some off the shelf Ford parts for the 348/355....

I think the option is there, and at minimal cost.. i mean, 100 bucks.. That's a dinner out with some friends. For me, if i decide to go with cast, i am not concerned with the 120$.. but that is just me. Also, depending on how long you keep the speakers... i have had my M60's for going on 7 years... if you amortize the 120$ over 7 years, if you only keep them for 7 years.... thats 20$ a year, or 1.4$ a week, thats much less than a gallon of gas nowadays laugh

To my orignal point, i think if there was an audible difference, they would have used the cast in the new speakers, especially since the new speaker is their flagship speaker.....

On a side note, if they hadn't offered the cast option would we be having this conversation? i would postulate not....

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#370099 - 03/18/12 02:06 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3826
Loc: Up yonder
I want billet forged baskets, machined out of solid T6061 AL.
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