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#371132 - 03/26/12 10:39 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4474
Loc: Marion, IA
What really blows my mind is when people utterly BASH Axiom, and their signatures list Axiom speakers in their line-up. Wow. Can't be THAT bad then... wink
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#371133 - 03/26/12 10:43 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: SBrown]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 176
Hi everyone.

I just stepped in the door after a 6+ hour drive back from Montreal. smile The show was exciting, vibrant, and full of music lovers from all over! It was a great pleasure meeting Luc Raymond and EricF and many other Axiom owners who are not on the forums. The LFR1100s sounded very good given that they were essentially in a large ballroom/meeting room! But take that with a grain of salt...I'm biased.

I see there have been a number of technical questions and guesses regarding amplifiers, room sizes, how to integrate the DSP box, what configurations are available, etc.

So, even though I'm pooped, it's time for some answers as I've been absent from the forum for over a week.

Let's start with the room.
Ideally, in a perfect world, you would have a wide enough room where the side walls were at least 3 or 4 feet from the speakers and you could get the LFR1100s out from the back wall by 2-3 feet. However, not everyone has the space, or the room environment that will allow this. Our solution is a compensation switch, if you will, on the back of the DSP box that will have settings for "less than 2 feet from the back wall" and "2 feet or more from the back wall". Naturally you can switch between these two settings to see what works best in your room.

The amplifier question is frankly something that should have been better explained from the start. Mea culpa.
The LFR1100 system requires FOUR independent amplifier channels, as one speaker is essentially two complete speakers in a single cabinet. The amplifier power does NOT need to be identical for the front and rear sections. A good rule of thumb is 60% or more of the front section power. An example would be a 200 WPC stereo amp driving the two front sections. You would then want at least 120 WPC for the rear section. Any less than 60% and you risk the rear sections running out of power before the front sections. Now, even though the amplifiers do not need to be identical in power rating they MUST have identical gain. The is easy if you are dealing with amplifiers or amp channels from the same manufacturer as this is often standard within a particular company's model line.

The DSP box for the LFR1100 is stereo in with four channels out. It allows for both singled-ended RCA connections and balanced XLR connections. I think Steve took some photos of the back panel and I'll ask him to post one tomorrow. If not I'll get out my camera and take one! smile The DSP itself does not nominally have any gain, and will not alter volume level settings when inserted into an existing system. So if you usually set your pre-amp to a level of "20" for a good listening level, that will not change with the DSP. The box could easily be inserted into the signal chain before the pre-amp if desired. The only warning is that the DSP is designed to operate at standard audio signal levels and accepts a maximum input of 2Vrms. Anything more than that will overload the inputs of the A/D converters.

Ian's pricing for the M80/M60+VP180/VP160 and M80/M60 did not include a version of the LFR1100 + centre. There is no reason it could not be produced if desired and I'm sure Ian will figure out the cost once he reads this post! Likewise, if you use a vertical M80v3 or M60v3 as a centre the DSP can easily be programmed to work with your system. While preliminary code has been written for the M80v3, the tooled chassis parts are only arriving now, so I don't have any photos. As soon as we have one mocked up I'll be sure to post one here.

Cheers!

Andrew

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#371134 - 03/26/12 10:59 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: solarrdadd]
solarrdadd Offline
local

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 278
Loc: Alexandria, VA
Originally Posted By: solarrdadd
Originally Posted By: dakkon
This is what Ian said in an e-mail he sent me.

Originally Posted By: Ian
For the M100 you will want four channels of exactly the same amplification. It is pretty much the more power the better up to about 500 watts per channel and then the speaker would start to become the limiting factor.


So a receiver + stereo amp would not work. I am pretty sure that the power AND the gain need to be the same for all channels powering the new speakers


i'd be willing to bet that the amp for the rear section doesn't need to be as powerful as the front section. i bet only the gain needs to be identical. lets face it the rear only has 2 tweeters and 2 mid-woofers. the front has all of that plus 3 (sub) woofers.

time will tell


here is a quote from andrew, tonight, about the amp needs for the new speakers and the DSP boxes:

"The amplifier power does NOT need to be identical for the front and rear sections. A good rule of thumb is 60% or more of the front section power. An example would be a 200 WPC stereo amp driving the two front sections. You would then want at least 120 WPC for the rear section. Any less than 60% and you risk the rear sections running out of power before the front sections. Now, even though the amplifiers do not need to be identical in power rating they MUST have identical gain."

Gee, any of this sound familiar!?! Looks like Uncle Solarrdadd hit the nail on the head with the my thoughts on the amp needs! wink

Please & Thank You!
_________________________
SonySXRD55"
OnkyoPR-SC5507P pre-amp
Emotiva XPA-5,UPA-2amps,
14 Speakers, All Axiom
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#371135 - 03/26/12 11:03 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: nickbuol]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
What really blows my mind is when people utterly BASH Axiom, and their signatures list Axiom speakers in their line-up. Wow. Can't be THAT bad then... wink


The problem with Audioholics and Gene in general, is that their credibility AND agenda is quite suspect. While he chimes in from time to time to chastise those about their so-called "comments" he still allows those that do it to continue. I have seen a number of people who have been considerably less critical of equipment they have reviewed and/or advertised on their site who have been publicly warned and even suspended from posting.

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#371141 - 03/26/12 11:17 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Andrew]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Thank you Andrew, that answered all the questions I've posed so far.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#371146 - 03/26/12 11:30 PM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: solarrdadd]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Not necessarily, dadd. Although Andrew didn't specify exactly why the rear drivers would use less power, it may be that part of the DSP processing is to set the back output at a slightly lower level than the front. If this was on the order of 2dB it would explain the 60% rule of thumb and would have nothing to do with the relative number of front/back drivers. In order to maintain the correct front/back balance the gain of the amplifier channels would have to be identical(or a level control to adjust the outputs would have to be available).
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#371154 - 03/27/12 06:20 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Andrew]
Steve H Offline

hobbyist

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 27
Here is a picture of the rear panel of the DSP prototype:


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#371175 - 03/27/12 10:40 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
I wonder how this unit compares to a Behringer DCX2496 or a BBE DS48?
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#371191 - 03/27/12 11:17 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
avjunkee Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 110
Will the DSP come with brackets to rack mount it? I believe it was already in a 19" wide 2U type chassis.
_________________________
M80s, VP180, QS8s, EP800 v3

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#371319 - 03/28/12 08:07 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Andrew]
cohesion Offline
local

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 219
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Hi everyone.

I just stepped in the door after a 6+ hour drive back from Montreal. smile The show was exciting, vibrant, and full of music lovers from all over! It was a great pleasure meeting Luc Raymond and EricF and many other Axiom owners who are not on the forums. The LFR1100s sounded very good given that they were essentially in a large ballroom/meeting room! But take that with a grain of salt...I'm biased.

I see there have been a number of technical questions and guesses regarding amplifiers, room sizes, how to integrate the DSP box, what configurations are available, etc.

So, even though I'm pooped, it's time for some answers as I've been absent from the forum for over a week.

Let's start with the room.
Ideally, in a perfect world, you would have a wide enough room where the side walls were at least 3 or 4 feet from the speakers and you could get the LFR1100s out from the back wall by 2-3 feet. However, not everyone has the space, or the room environment that will allow this. Our solution is a compensation switch, if you will, on the back of the DSP box that will have settings for "less than 2 feet from the back wall" and "2 feet or more from the back wall". Naturally you can switch between these two settings to see what works best in your room.

The amplifier question is frankly something that should have been better explained from the start. Mea culpa.
The LFR1100 system requires FOUR independent amplifier channels, as one speaker is essentially two complete speakers in a single cabinet. The amplifier power does NOT need to be identical for the front and rear sections. A good rule of thumb is 60% or more of the front section power. An example would be a 200 WPC stereo amp driving the two front sections. You would then want at least 120 WPC for the rear section. Any less than 60% and you risk the rear sections running out of power before the front sections. Now, even though the amplifiers do not need to be identical in power rating they MUST have identical gain. The is easy if you are dealing with amplifiers or amp channels from the same manufacturer as this is often standard within a particular company's model line.

The DSP box for the LFR1100 is stereo in with four channels out. It allows for both singled-ended RCA connections and balanced XLR connections. I think Steve took some photos of the back panel and I'll ask him to post one tomorrow. If not I'll get out my camera and take one! smile The DSP itself does not nominally have any gain, and will not alter volume level settings when inserted into an existing system. So if you usually set your pre-amp to a level of "20" for a good listening level, that will not change with the DSP. The box could easily be inserted into the signal chain before the pre-amp if desired. The only warning is that the DSP is designed to operate at standard audio signal levels and accepts a maximum input of 2Vrms. Anything more than that will overload the inputs of the A/D converters.

Ian's pricing for the M80/M60+VP180/VP160 and M80/M60 did not include a version of the LFR1100 + centre. There is no reason it could not be produced if desired and I'm sure Ian will figure out the cost once he reads this post! Likewise, if you use a vertical M80v3 or M60v3 as a centre the DSP can easily be programmed to work with your system. While preliminary code has been written for the M80v3, the tooled chassis parts are only arriving now, so I don't have any photos. As soon as we have one mocked up I'll be sure to post one here.

Cheers!

Andrew


Thanks Andrew for the info! I'm newly signed up for the Forums but already have a set of M80's and VP180 in my home theatre room. In fact I saw this discussion last week and signed up for the LFR1000 right away -- I think I got in at around #5! I wonder if all of the first 10 signed pairs are spoken for yet?

Anyway I'm trying to sort out the details of my configuration with the LFR1000's. I noticed you mentioned the possibility of a new LFR1000 + centre. I was speculating that one might become available but wonder if there is a need for one. Many people already seem to like doing two VP180/160 centres, one above and one below the screen. That might be a good option too but would we be able to setup the DSP accordingly? Also, for those of us who already have a VP180/160, would it make sense to produce something like the back half of an LFR centre -- perhaps with additional bass driver(s) -- and use that in combination with the VP?

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